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Arimadios
2014-07-06, 08:24 PM
'Ello there! I'm Arimadios, I'm Dming a campaign that's basically thus:

The World Ended. Yes, all caps there, cuz it's the necessaries. When it did, I had some player characters there who saw the big bad guy do it. All the gods died. All that's left? One wasteland of a world with a single speck sized zone of life (That's mostly populated with deathless warriors and experts that just plain refused to die.) It's the last refuge of life. Epic level monsters dwell in forgetten cities and wonder the remaining planes freely, the upper planes got nuked, and the new gods made from the remains of the old are uncaring, calculating, distant, and general A-holes. From Orra, a lawful good clockwork dragon god of time and war, who generally seeks to just plain destroy the corrupted nasty crap the bbeg left over from dying, to Daeth, who is basically a huge tentacle monster of plagues rape and demons, the chaotic evil deity, This world just plain hit the suck hole.

Enter my players.

Bear in mind: This party Vaped a Ha-Naga in one round. At level 12. With Maximized hitpoints. I reinterate: This party of level 12 dudes KILLED AN EPIC CREATURE.

I have a rules lawyer of staggering awesomehood. (He's been playing longer than I've been alive.) He keeps me on track, but also respects that my rule 0 is RULE OF FUN/AWESOME!!! So he just plain enjoys himself. He's such a good player, that basically, he forced himself to make an unoptimized character.... And he still slaughters everything I throw at him. Awesomely. (I had to undo a house rule I loved because of his Psion. It makes sense for AOE spells to hurt monsters occupying more than one five foot square to be hit by every square of deathly hurt, if every square was filled with mooks, they would each be vaped. Seemed legit. Nope. Kineticist dragons breath = no more encounters. ever.) (This character also directly caused our party cleric (Played by me, as need dictated.) to drop to an epic level encounter at level 15.)

Then I have the character switcher. Every week, a new character concept. Every week, A new, compelling argument. Every week.... Guh. I love the guy to death. But his scout is flippin B-A. It runs at FIFTY-NINE MILES PER HOUR. He's also got mobility, and sexified armor, so... yeah. AoOs? Nawp. He did a Centaur monk once. It Flurried with a tree sized quarterstaff. I cried. It was beautiful. He had twinklehooves and Spidershoes (Horseshoes of spider climb. He wrote down spidershoes. It was hilarious.) Now? He wants to run a Summoner Ace. Crap. More statblocks for me to draw up.

Then I have my friendly attention hog. He comes up with great, story driven, and compelling ideas. I reward that, because the story is important. So, I give him things. Nothing O-P, I stress this. I Balance and balance and BALANCE his stuff. He's not OP, by any means. I like him. He can still put out over 100 damage a round without breaking a sweat, but I still uberbalance all his stuff. He still hasn't got to use his Prestige class (Found it on D&D Wiki, Arcane Warrior, He was psyched, so I said yes. He's loving it.) Abilities much, but when he does? GG Batman wizard.

Then there's my character. A thousand years of death and near death and deathlessness tends to breed some very smart guys who figured out how to kill stuff at a range. So, I introduced magitech to the campaign. My players basically demanded the cleric I run be more uh... bad-a. so? Dual Magitech Revolver Wielding Cleric Drow. I hit like a truck, permabuff, aaaaaaannnnd then got one shot by a lavawight. Anti-climactic, right?

Kind of. THe rules lawyer (Using his psion.) pulled some... very, very interesting shenanegains. (I Ruled that if sound is an element, then so is acid. Yeaaahhhh. First time playing the game, and i'm the dang DM.) He had used Schism last round on a contringency Temporal Accelration. Yeah. That was naaaasty. Then? He pulls some crap that I just... I had to allow on factor of awesome.

It goes like this... Temporal Acceleration twice(One from each mind.) = 4 powers.
TA 4 times = 16 powers.
Kinecticist breath = 16 acid dragon breaths at 15d6.
= 906 damage, dead lavawight.

Something like 2 or 3 hundred power points burnt. Yeah. Soiled my nickers. (Though, to be fair, story wise, His psion enjoyed mind-crewing my cleric (Childhood friends, and hopelessly unable to be romantic. Was hilarious.) and was uberpissed Finn died.)

After this, my Psion playing rules lawyer decided to nerf himself by going half-pyroclastic dragon Harsif with levels in monk to dervish and monkey-grip. Didn't optimize for kill speed. Is now effectively unkillable. (He has a 41 touch AC.) Can't hit in melee for anything, but, uh, Yeah. Breath is death. Pyroclastic clouds.

Well, Ressurection is gone in this campaign (Because I hate the rules.) And if you die once, you get one more chance as a deathless. Fun Flavor.

Now? I have to roll up a backup character.

So, what am I to do? I don't like spell-casting myself, so, I decide to roll up a tanky fighter type. I do some research. Looks like a spiked chain tripper will do...

And then my min-max player side kicks in, and I begin to OPTIMIZE.

Half-Bronze Dragon Dragonborn (Wings Aspect) Water Orc.

It's +12 Str, +6 Con, and +2 dex for -2 charisma and 3 LA, which has been bought off almost completely at this point.

Then I min-max further. Ape Totem Barbarian 1, Wolf totem Barbarian 2, Spirit Lion Barbarian 3 (Because Pounce requires 3 levels of barbarian, l2read, yall.) Wildshape Ranger 1 (Regaining Fast Movement.) Wildshape Ranger 2, Horizon Walker. Spiked chain? Yes. Improved trip? Yes. Power attack? Yes. Cleave/Great Cleave? Yes. Going shock-Trooper? Yes. Valorous Spiked Chain? Yes. Skill points in Jump? Yes. Wings give me dive attacks? Yes.

Basically? I've got 50 strength, A x4(or is it 5?) Damage Charge (Jump into flight, Dive.) with almost infinite trip attempts? Uhhh... yeah.


Then I was cruising, and saw a gem. Shield Sling.

I nearly wet myself in anticipation. I can't recall it now, but there's an MIC shield enchantment, that basically turns a shield into Captain America's Shield. Then I found Lion's Shield. I Drooled.

Basically, I have a new Idea for a guy, A shield slinging, surly fighter, who's entire purpose in life is just to kill the corruption (Which is neither good, evil, law, or chaos, and is a new type of 'moral' alignment that is counterposed by purity, weather good or evil.) And I just cant find any datas on how to build him into an effective arse-stomp-hole-maker. (I thought about lion's shield with returning, Which would be interesting, as it would basically be a ranged full attack that trips with every attack.) And Quick-draw with throwing hammers (Enchanted to act like Raptor Arrows.) With Brutal Throw and Weapon specs.


So. Now you know the situations.

Here's my question.

Given this environment, knowing that I'm one set of good rolls away from our party losing our cleric, for goodies, and knowing that it will leave our party without a healer, what would you do? Play the Captain Am-Rhael? or The Trip-cleave-charger of death?

PS. The Campaign ends up with a player sacrificing himself to get that selfsame cleric to the end of the final dungeon to throw him into the heart of the corruption and end it, allowing the universe to recover from the end-war.

So, Anyway. Tips, Advice?

Gildedragon
2014-07-06, 08:39 PM
wait wait wait...
your character?
but you're the DM...
Your character is the world

If lvl 12 characters killed an epic encounter odds are they are optimized to the wazoo and you didn't play the monster to its full potential

Also: first time DMing and doing Epic? Heck first time playing and you are doing Epic... I don't know if to laud or laugh at daring
Here's a secret: Epic is borked

Now suggestions:
Rein in the rules lawyer (or let them DM).
Force character shifter to pick one. Might I suggest Changeling Factotum/chamaleon or Changeling Binder for versatility's sake

As to this: "PS. The Campaign ends up with a player sacrificing himself to get that selfsame cleric to the end of the final dungeon to throw him into the heart of the corruption and end it, allowing the universe to recover from the end-war." Do not write how the ending goes. Write what is needed for certain outcomes to happen, but do not foreordain the path.

Also: I would recomend you run something lower level to get used to the game and rules.

Arimadios
2014-07-06, 08:55 PM
Okay, as to the end of things bit? That's the only way the end resolves. Otherwise the campaign continues. That's when it ends, that's the end game, the end of the play sessions for a while. It'll be a while before we get there. I don't railroad, but then, My players refuse to sidequest. (I've offered tons. I've written tons. I've thrown out every. frickin. one. Apparently, the main quest is THAT exciting. Blah.

As far as my first time playing goes? I've dm'd this. From level 1. Started in a game shop, went to his house, am now hosting at my place. Love every minute of it. Spend hours researching crap.

I know epic is borked. I actually enjoy it's borkedness. It's fun, Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, has challenged our party before that. It made so much goody stuff for plots and trials and tribulations.

Running the world is the most fun I have, to be honest. My Character? Heal-bot, Buff-bot, shot guns all of three times in the last 10 sessions. my PCs LOVED him though.

And yes, I did play the Ha-naga to her fullest. She nearly killed the crap out of the scout with a full attack, and with quarters as cramped as they were, she couldn't exactly unleash pure death on them. It was before she got to do anything but grab one guy. (I was intending to use a maximized scorching ray on the grappled scout. Gah.)

As for character hopper? Hell, he doesn't know what he wants to do from week to week, and I'm already having to look up the stats for scout every few sessions. If I had to set up his factorum? Ow. Anyeruism.

I enjoy, most of all, crafting the story. I've had different things planned, but I've had to calculate and recalculate due to player intervention. (Silly players, WHY DO YOU BLOW UP THE MONSTERS BEFORE I CAN RP THEM!?)

Basically? Everything I try to stop these juggernaut PCs has blown up in my face - and I've enjoyed it. Rules lawyer has reigned himself in. I'm okay with an unkillable character. He'll get a natural one eventually. And then, he's gone. I'm okay with everything, and enjoy it.

Basically? Give me some fun stuff to throw at them, Or maybe I should just use those characters I made as an encounter?

I'm just a little lost here, and trying my best to give these guys a fun, enjoyable game.

Gildedragon
2014-07-06, 09:33 PM
And yes, I did play the Ha-naga to her fullest. She nearly killed the crap out of the scout with a full attack, and with quarters as cramped as they were, she couldn't exactly unleash pure death on them. It was before she got to do anything but grab one guy. (I was intending to use a maximized scorching ray on the grappled scout. Gah.)
I won't go too much into this, but you, as a DM, pick the environment. and the environment is part of the challenge. Putting a monster in a suboptimal environment is not playing them to their fullest.

As for character hopper? Hell, he doesn't know what he wants to do from week to week, and I'm already having to look up the stats for scout every few sessions. If I had to set up his factorum? Ow. Anyeruism. How? They are locked into a build. No changing anything. You have their stats, their char sheet, you know what they can do. I suggest factotum for such a character because it is a class that can wear many hats.
Also why are you looking up scout stats every week: You have their charsheets on hand don't you?


Basically? Everything I try to stop these juggernaut PCs has blown up in my face - and I've enjoyed it. Rules lawyer has reigned himself in. I'm okay with an unkillable character. He'll get a natural one eventually. And then, he's gone. I'm okay with everything, and enjoy it. You got an oxymoron there: if nothing you throw challenges the PCs, the PCs are not at a power level you can challenge.



I'm just a little lost here, and trying my best to give these guys a fun, enjoyable game.
Well why not ask them what sort of stuff they want?
What sort of side quests? What sort of challenges?

Arimadios
2014-07-06, 09:47 PM
I hate Save or Die with a burning passion. It's a stuuuuuuuu-pid mechanic. Sorry, Instant death is a no go - The Ha-Naga is a collosal creature, with badassery. The fight started in melee range, so, a full attack seemed the best bet. I attempted every AoO I could. Since it died in the first round, I have a feeling I did play it to the best ability, and then, my players played to the best of their ability. They Vaped it. In one round. (Screw haste in all it's forms.)

As for me having to look up the stats for scout every week? Uh... The last encounter? It was Lava wights. At level 15. They leveled. Before that? Ha Naga. At level 12. They leveled. A lot. Before that? Homebrew monsters that were scary as hell (Nearly a TPK, Except that DANG PSION.) Guts went everywhere. Levels were had. (It was a CR 19 encounter. They were level 10 or so.) They char everything. I laugh my butt off too it, but still. Scurry.

I do. Their answer is "The Story man!" From the Story loving guy, "Playing the game!" From the Character hopper, and "You're the best DM I've ever had." From the Rules-Lawyer. I do it for fun, honestly. Basically, I think I'm getting to the root of my real question...

What isn't a terrasque, doesn't use save or suck, and is an underground friendly monster? (By that I mean, they live underground.)

Also: I just plain enjoy it. It's fun. Ain't that the real rule 0?

Gildedragon
2014-07-06, 10:07 PM
Um so... not gonna give this any more energy until the thoughts become more coherent. But i didn't understand why you were looking up the scout's stats every week to begin with. How are they changing race constantly (if that's what's happening)?

As to the Ha-naga:
Spot checks happen from a distance, so unless the monster (or players) just popped in next to each other... well melee range oughtn't have been the case...and for a monster who flies, getting off the ground round 1 is the most prudent choice.

But I am withdrawing from this thread

Arimadios
2014-07-06, 10:16 PM
Looking the scout's stats up? I don't own complete adventurer. I had to dnd tools it every bloody time he leveled up to make sure everything was copacetic.

Most of my PCs fly - And the monster was behind a veil of unseeing/unhearing. Basically, a black, lead sheet that can be moved through. It was a story element. I'm not complaining, I hope. I'm just trying to Get some advice here, What kind of monsters don't use save or suck? What's a challenge that's going to threaten this party that isn't a complicated dungeon wide trap?


Basically? Help, Experienced Dm, help me!

Newb DM is floundering here, And I'm trying but beginning to fail.