Miko was Accidentally Right about Vaarsuvius!!

[Darth Paul]

EDIT: Originally this post had a "Spoiler" reference in regards to the Familicide spell, for the benefit of any brand-new readers who had never heard of it and din't want to hear of it here first. I have since removed it, as I realized that I went overboard with that. Apologies for any confusion or irritation engendered thereby.

ORIGINAL POST:

Maybe this should have gone in the "Things I Never Noticed" thread, but considering that I raked Miko Miyazaki over the coals pretty heavily in another thread (I think it was the first post I ever made in the forum), justice demands no less than a new thread to make it up to her.

Say what you will about Miko...

...

Done? OK, moving along.

Say what you will about Miko, every once on a while she raised a valid point, even if she did so in a needlessly harsh manner, and this was one such occasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html), even if it only is true in the long-term foreshadowing sense. Allow me to explain.

Miko's dressing-down speech to Roy in #207 goes as follows;
"Without proper trainig, it is nigh-impossible to tell the good dragons from the evil ones. In your ignorance, you may have slain a powerful force for Good in this world! What proof do you have that you did not vanquish a stalwart defender of the weak in your mad lust for treasure??"

But wait a minute. Roy didn't vanquish the black dragon; Vaarsuvius did.

Now let's examine the long-term consequences of that duel.

The dragon's mother eventually sought V. out, humiliated hir, and then set off to kill hir family. (Worse than kill, actually.) Vaarsuvius was desperate enough to lease hir soul to the IFCC in return for the Soul Splice, which would grant enough power to stop the Momma Dragon. And V. then cast the Familicide spell, wiping out the dragon's entire extended family, including the Draketooth clan, who were charged with defending Girard's Gate. Because V.'s lust for revenge for the threat to hir family overcame any other consideration in hir mind. And we mostly (I assume, if you've read this far) know how that turned out.

So, fast-forward about 3 months, substitute the word "vengeance" for "treasure" in the above speech, and Miko has predicted Vaarsuvius' error to a T. Even if she did so in her usual accusatory, harsh, profoundly "Miko"-ish way.

Was it unusually acute understanding of humanoid nature on her part? Or just a case of a blind squirrel finding a nut?

[Kish]

Most likely, she was reciting one of her paladin lessons from memory, and didn't really understand what she was saying well enough to take it further for her own actions than, "Use Detect Evil before killing dragons myself, got it."

(Which probably would still have saved her from committing race-based mass murder as Vaarsuvius did.)

[Keltest]

Im reasonably sure it was a one off joke and any relation to the consequences of V's actions are because it is specifically discussing V's actions.


Most likely, she was reciting one of her paladin lessons from memory, and didn't really understand what she was saying well enough to take it further for her own actions than, "Use Detect Evil before killing dragons myself, got it."

(Which probably would still have saved her from committing race-based mass murder as Vaarsuvius did.)

Im fairly certain that Miko's inability to actually do that is a far greater deterrent to her than the alignment of a being who was torturing and soulbinding innocent children without even the flimsy excuse of being a blood relation to the person who killed her child.

[Parallel Pain]

Actually I'm pretty sure Miko's still wrong.

Dragon's are color-coded for your convenience. The black dragon was evil and they were right to kill it...according to Miko!
That the party did not consider the consequence of killing the dragon has nothing to do with Miko's argument.
She simply argued they need proper training to tell a good dragon from an evil dragon (training as in a working non-color blind pair of eyes). If the dragon was evil, she's fine with killing it regardless of consequences.

[Angelalex242]

Its scales weren't all shiny!

Ah. Then its destruction was just and necessary.

The interesting thing about that plot is that the momma dragon thought her son was going to invite the green dragon girl over. Makes me wonder whether the offspring of that would be a half black green dragon, or a half green black dragon. ;)

[rodneyAnonymous]

Probably the offspring would be all hybrids (greenish black dragons?); crossed with another black/green hybrid, you'd get some "pure" black dragons, some "pure" green dragons, and some hybrids. Like a litter of kittens.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think that Miko believed that error in slaying the dragon lay more in not being certain that it was Evil rather than the consequences of the slaying, especially considering that she was pacified once she learned that it's scales weren't all shiny. Vaarsuvius's error lay more in nor caring for the consequences of their spell than whether or not the dragons were all Evil. Regardless of whether or not all the dragons killed by Vaarsuvius were Evil, their actions still were not right.

[factotum]

Yeah, I agree with the others--Miko would unquestionably have agreed with V's treatment of the young black dragon, because to her mind, it was Evil and thus deserving of death no matter what it had actually done.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

On a side note, is that Familicide spell that much of a spoiler at this point?

[Darth Paul]

On a side note, is that Familicide spell that much of a spoiler at this point?

I guess it depends how much of the story you've read.

I had a reminder recently that levels of knowledge vary between forum members, so I guess that was my way of saying "Hey, if you're just dipping into the forum after reading the first 10 strips, and you've never heard of a Familicide spell, well, maybe stay away from this thread."

[Reddish Mage]

Say what you will about Miko, every once on a while she raised a valid point, even if she did so in a needlessly harsh manner, and this was one such occasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html), even if it only is true in the long-term foreshadowing sense. Allow me to explain.

Miko's dressing-down speech to Roy in #207 goes as follows;
"Without proper trainig, it is nigh-impossible to tell the good dragons from the evil ones. In your ignorance, you may have slain a powerful force for Good in this world! What proof do you have that you did not vanquish a stalwart defender of the weak in your mad lust for treasure??"

But wait a minute. Roy didn't vanquish the black dragon; Vaarsuvius did.
So, fast-forward about 3 months, substitute the word "vengeance" for "treasure" in the above speech, and Miko has predicted Vaarsuvius' error to a T. Even if she did so in her usual accusatory, harsh, profoundly "Miko"-ish way.

Roy's response is "its scales weren't shiny" and Miko says "then its destruction was just and necessary." Miko clearly would have been pleased at the mass slaughter of black dragons. There is no foreshadowing here, if anything the Giant means crack a joke about how superficial the alignment determination of dragons is.

[NerdyKris]

I guess it depends how much of the story you've read.

I had a reminder recently that levels of knowledge vary between forum members, so I guess that was my way of saying "Hey, if you're just dipping into the forum after reading the first 10 strips, and you've never heard of a Familicide spell, well, maybe stay away from this thread."

It's ridiculous to spoiler things that happened 5 years ago. If you're silly enough to wade into a forum dedicated to discussing a webcomic without having read the webcomic, that's really your own fault. I can see not spoiling stuff that just happened in the last week, but half a decade ago is just extreme. You'd wind up with dozens of threads with meaningless titles.

I mean why not spoiler the fact that there's a character called Miko, or that the Familicide spell even exists? Do you see where it gets a little absurd?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Someone Miko once accused of being Evil eventually performed an Evil action.

In the words of a different webcomic author, "I'm picturing a dartboard filled with an infinite number of darts."

Also there's not really any evidence one way or the other on Junior Dragon's alignment other than chromatic dragons defaulting to Evil and the fact that he opened up with an ambush instead of negotiation. Mama Dragon was probably Evil given the lengths she went to to torture Vaarsuvius, specifically tormenting and attempting to murder his/her innocent family. Either way, though, does it really matter? The whole mess was an escalating series of revenge plots that spiraled way out of control and far beyond the point where anyone could have reasonably predicted it. Even the Fiends were surprised by how off-the-reservation V went with his/her powerup.

[Unisus]

Let's be honest - had Miko had the opportunity to cast something like Familicide, she would have cast it on a Black Dragon, on a Red Dragon, on a Green Dragon, ... followed by casting it at an Orc, a Goblin, ... just any member of an evil race, i'd guess.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I guess it depends how much of the story you've read.

I had a reminder recently that levels of knowledge vary between forum members, so I guess that was my way of saying "Hey, if you're just dipping into the forum after reading the first 10 strips, and you've never heard of a Familicide spell, well, maybe stay away from this thread."

Really, anyone who hasn't read all of the comic should expect that anything with the purpose of talking about the comic will contain some spoilers. There isn't really much of an excuse for at least reading all of the online comic first, since it's all right there. I could potentially see spoilering more recent events (like the reveal about Durkon) if this really concerned you, but Familicide happened over five years ago.

[Killer Angel]

I guess it depends how much of the story you've read.

I had a reminder recently that levels of knowledge vary between forum members, so I guess that was my way of saying "Hey, if you're just dipping into the forum after reading the first 10 strips, and you've never heard of a Familicide spell, well, maybe stay away from this thread."

You're right, knowledge is different between playgrounders, but must be said that the place is full of forums for discussions, and this section is specifically dedicated to debates about the comic, so it's expected to find here discussions about the story.

[rodneyAnonymous]

In the words of a different webcomic author, "I'm picturing a dartboard filled with an infinite number of darts."

That is hilarious.

[Angelalex242]

Miko with familicide would've started by casting it on every always evil race member she can find. Then, she'd probably hit the 'usually evil' races. She might even hit the 'often evil' races.

While casting it, she'd never notice the frowny faces the 12 gods were making at her, and she cheerfully would've purged the world of evil doing 'the work of the 12 gods.'

It's unknown if she would've cast it on Belkar, Roy, or both. She might've even cast it on Shojo.

[rodneyAnonymous]

It's unknown if she would've cast it on Belkar, Roy, or both. She might've even cast it on Shojo.

I doubt it. Since this world doesn't have a universal common ancestor, not all humans or halflings would die, but some significant fraction of them would. Goblins? Maybe. Humans? No way. Miko was deeply misguided, but Lawful Good. She knows lots of humans that aren't Evil. Using that spell at all is a clearly evil act that was kind of shocking for even a Neutral character (Vaarsuvius) to cast on a black dragon, let alone for a Good character to cast on a human or halfling. Miko's goodness and familicide's evilness both have to be seriously downplayed for that to be even a remote possibility.

[137beth]

Roy's response is "its scales weren't shiny" and Miko says "then its destruction was just and necessary." Miko clearly would have been pleased at the mass slaughter of black dragons. There is no foreshadowing here, if anything the Giant means crack a joke about how superficial the alignment determination of dragons is.

Yea this was my take too. If Miko were powerful enough to cast Familicide without negotiating with the IFCC, I think she would have done so without a second thought. Then she would have been confused as to why she immediately fell.

[warrl]

In the words of a different webcomic author, "I'm picturing a dartboard filled with an infinite number of darts."

Here's another webcomic author's response. (http://www.egscomics.com/sketchbook.php?id=560)


Also there's not really any evidence one way or the other on Junior Dragon's alignment other than chromatic dragons defaulting to Evil and the fact that he opened up with an ambush instead of negotiation.

He was dealing with heavily-armed home invaders who, as I recall, had already killed several of his neighbors. Negotiation?

(Not saying he wasn't evil. Just saying that the lack of attempts at negotiation is not good evidence on the subject.)

[Bulldog Psion]

Wow, a combined Familicide and "young dragon vs. home invaders" thread.

Doubling up the horror and despair for a uniquely satisfying confection of train wreck, one presumes. :smallwink:

Edit: with bonus Miko action, too. It's a three-fer!

[TheMiningDwarf]

Its scales weren't all shiny!

Ah. Then its destruction was just and necessary.

The interesting thing about that plot is that the momma dragon thought her son was going to invite the green dragon girl over. Makes me wonder whether the offspring of that would be a half black green dragon, or a half green black dragon. ;)


Probably the offspring would be all hybrids (greenish black dragons?); crossed with another black/green hybrid, you'd get some "pure" black dragons, some "pure" green dragons, and some hybrids. Like a litter of kittens.

That sounds so cute now I have the image of black and green baby dragons mewling in a pile aww

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Wow, a combined Familicide and "young dragon vs. home invaders" thread.

Doubling up the horror and despair for a uniquely satisfying confection of train wreck, one presumes. :smallwink:

Edit: with bonus Miko action, too. It's a three-fer!

Well, for now it hasn't gone too far (we're even talking about cute dragon babies, apparently), so maybe there's hope?

[Keltest]

Well, for now it hasn't gone too far (we're even talking about cute dragon babies, apparently), so maybe there's hope?

Theres hope for anything with cute babies, dragon or otherwise.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Theres hope for anything with cute babies, dragon or otherwise.

Well, to keep us on this subject, what is a baby/young dragon called? Baby dogs are puppies, baby cats are kittens, baby dragons are...?

[Snails]

Well, to keep us on this subject, what is a baby/young dragon called? Baby dogs are puppies, baby cats are kittens, baby dragons are...?

Rather like "whelp".

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Rather like "whelp".

That's a good one, although it would be interesting to make something unique for dragons. Any other ideas, anyone?

[Keltest]

That's a good one, although it would be interesting to make something unique for dragons. Any other ideas, anyone?

Ive heard Whelp, Drake, Dragonling, Hatchling and Spawn.

[rodneyAnonymous]

And wyrmling, usually if dragons are called wyrms in that setting.

[Nerd-o-rama]

He was dealing with heavily-armed home invaders who, as I recall, had already killed several of his neighbors. Negotiation?

(Not saying he wasn't evil. Just saying that the lack of attempts at negotiation is not good evidence on the subject.)

I'm not going off of alignment so much as dragon clichés there. Metallic True Dragons are almost always predisposed to talk the ears off of anyone who wanders into their lair in one fashion or another. Then again, a non-Evil Black Dragon presupposes that assumptions about dragon behavior have been thrown out the window anyway, so let's just go with "Good Dragons tend to be the inspiration for either Paladins or the most harmless types of annoying bards", or "Nerdo didn't think through the hypothetical very well".

Oh, and officially (in the Monster Manual), the youngest dragons are known as Wyrmlings. I tend to refer to dragons too recently-hatched to even have stats as "hatchlings".

[Vladier]

Oh, and officially (in the Monster Manual), the youngest dragons are known as Wyrmlings. I tend to refer to dragons too recently-hatched to even have stats as "hatchlings".

I'm pretty sure that in D&D the stage of "right after egg" for dragons is called "hatchling". And they have their breath attack already. And stats. Even their eggs have stats. The question of Black-Green hybrids is still open, though.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Miko wouldn't cast Familicide. Firstly, it's a Necromancy spell. Secondly, she still has a code of conduct to follow and it states that you can't kill an opponent dishonorably, and killing someone through blood relation at a very safe distance most likely counts.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Ancient Black Dragon was evil, black non-shiny scales nonwithstanding. It takes special kind of Evil to plan soultrapping innocent children (not even biologically related to the person you want to psychologically torture) forever for such a long time and then go with it. It can't even be excused with her being furious right after her son's death because she had very much time to calculate her revenge in cold blood, the excuse Vaarsuvirus hirself had (which still doesn't excuse hir, mind, for V has done so just to prove hir arcane might rather than as an act of actual preventive revenge, if there even is such a thing). And I guess her son would be Evil as well, unless his mother went with Laurin's "keep him away from those things I do and give him a good life to live with that Green dragon girl and a plumber job".

[evileeyore]

Someone Miko once accused of being Evil eventually performed an Evil action.

In the words of a different webcomic author, "I'm picturing a dartboard filled with an infinite number of darts."
"Broke clock, twice a day" comes to my mind.


Even if Miko was more like a 24 hour clock... :smallwink:




Wow, a combined Familicide and "young dragon vs. home invaders" thread.

Doubling up the horror and despair for a uniquely satisfying confection of train wreck, one presumes. :smallwink:

Edit: with bonus Miko action, too. It's a three-fer!
WOOT WOOT!

[warrl]

Ive heard Whelp, Drake, Dragonling, Hatchling and Spawn.

A hatchling would presumably be an extremely-young dragon. One that hatched rather recently.

I recently came across something that said a Drake is four-limbed (two legs, two wings) while a Dragon is six-limbed (four legs, two wings). They aren't even particularly closely related species. Of course, since we're dealing with fantasy fiction either way, that distinction doesn't necessarily apply in any given universe.

[Yendor]

Yea this was my take too. If Miko were powerful enough to cast Familicide without negotiating with the IFCC, I think she would have done so without a second thought. Then she would have been confused as to why she immediately fell.
Miko would have fallen for even researching the spell. If that wasn't an evil act in itself, even considering casting it indicates a non-Good alignment. But since paladins don't get ninth-level spells she couldn't research epic spells without long ago leaving the paladin class behind, so it's a moot point.

[Keltest]

A hatchling would presumably be an extremely-young dragon. One that hatched rather recently.

I recently came across something that said a Drake is four-limbed (two legs, two wings) while a Dragon is six-limbed (four legs, two wings). They aren't even particularly closely related species. Of course, since we're dealing with fantasy fiction either way, that distinction doesn't necessarily apply in any given universe.

Ive been told that 2 legs + 2 wings = wyvern, whether or not there is a poison stinger. So Skyrim dragons are actually wyverns. Apparently the original Drake myths were only tangentially related to actual dragons.

[multilis]

Yea this was my take too. If Miko were powerful enough to cast Familicide without negotiating with the IFCC, I think she would have done so without a second thought. Then she would have been confused as to why she immediately fell.
Yes, OOTS would never kill goblins in their sleep or kill police sent to arrest them when escaping from jail without much thought or regret, or kill group of ogres while they were still sleeping unless they got up and had a good breakfast, but Miko would.

And Miko would have immediately fallen but Roy would be in good afterlife after all the goblins that he didn't kill just for being goblins, etc. Roy would treat everyone including Elan and Miko like a saint, Roy would never be greedy and want to stay in a hotel to cost as much as possible rather than save the money to feed orphans, etc.

That is because Miko has prejudice that colors her opinions and actions unlike you and me and OOTS.

[theNater]

So, fast-forward about 3 months, substitute the word "vengeance" for "treasure" in the above speech, and Miko has predicted Vaarsuvius' error to a T.
You also have to replace "Good" with "Neutrality" and "weak" with "world on which they live".

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. So, we've got whelp, drake, dragonling, hatchling, spawn, and wyrmling. I never heard that bit about wyverns/drakes vs. dragons before.

Edit: Plus dragonetts and dragonettes.

[tomandtish]

Well, to keep us on this subject, what is a baby/young dragon called? Baby dogs are puppies, baby cats are kittens, baby dragons are...?

"Easier XP"?

On a serious note, I've heard dragonetts and dragonettes before. (Both spellings).

[Darth Paul]

It's ridiculous to spoiler things that happened 5 years ago.

Now that I have discovered that I can edit the title of the thread, I removed the spoiler reference. And I retroactively agree. See my comments above for my original reasons for mentioning spoilers in the first place. Apologies to one and all, especially anyone who might be confused by the references in the thread. I will add an edit to the original post.

[Bulldog Psion]

I always thought it was "dragonet" myself.

[factotum]

Secondly, she still has a code of conduct to follow and it states that you can't kill an opponent dishonorably, and killing someone through blood relation at a very safe distance most likely counts.


So she'd never do anything like kill an unarmed octogenarian, you mean? OH WAIT. :smallwink:

[Angelalex242]

He was an unarmed Octogenarian who had betrayed Azure City to the goblins! Of course he deserved to be smited with extreme prejudice!

...What do you mean not everyone agrees with my analysis?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yes, OOTS would never kill goblins in their sleep or kill police sent to arrest them when escaping from jail without much thought or regret, or kill group of ogres while they were still sleeping unless they got up and had a good breakfast, but Miko would.

And Miko would have immediately fallen but Roy would be in good afterlife after all the goblins that he didn't kill just for being goblins, etc. Roy would treat everyone including Elan and Miko like a saint, Roy would never be greedy and want to stay in a hotel to cost as much as possible rather than save the money to feed orphans, etc.

That is because Miko has prejudice that colors her opinions and actions unlike you and me and OOTS.

Oh hey, I was wondering when the strawmen were going to show up. What does this even have to do with the post you quoted?

[Vladier]

So she'd never do anything like kill an unarmed octogenarian, you mean? OH WAIT. :smallwink:

That octogenarian in her mind betrayed her beloved city and was actively conspiring for it to be destroyed. And she also did make a token affort of thinking about bringing him to justice properly, but she also believed that Shojo had the courts in his pocket (and not without a reason - he did fool the proper judicial process once) and was too dangerous to be left alive. And she didn't use dishonorable means to kill him, using her katana after declaring her intentions. I still stand by my reasoning that she wouldn't use Familicide if she had the ability - it's an Epic Necromantic spell and kills without warning.

[factotum]

That octogenarian in her mind betrayed her beloved city and was actively conspiring for it to be destroyed. And she also did make a token affort of thinking about bringing him to justice

No, she really didn't--Hinjo raised the possibility of bringing him to justice, and Miko shot him down immediately. And the rest of your post is basically saying "She has a code of conduct she will always follow, except when she believes she's justified in not doing so", which still doesn't rule out her using Familicide. If someone told her she'd kill a quarter of all black dragons, but would Fall for doing so? I reckon she'd do it in a heartbeat.

[Vladier]

No, she really didn't--Hinjo raised the possibility of bringing him to justice, and Miko shot him down immediately. And the rest of your post is basically saying "She has a code of conduct she will always follow, except when she believes she's justified in not doing so", which still doesn't rule out her using Familicide. If someone told her she'd kill a quarter of all black dragons, but would Fall for doing so? I reckon she'd do it in a heartbeat.

I really don't think you understand Miko. If you tell her that she'll fall for using it, she wouldn't do it. Because to Miko, being an exemplar paladin of the Twelwe Gods is all she's ever aspired to be. If she knows she will fall for doing something then she also knows that that something is against the will of the Twelwe Gods. And since Black Dragons are Evil (of course), killing just them can't be against their will, so that's a caveat that something is wrong with the spell. And considering that it appears to be common knowledge that the dragons sometimes mate with other races, I don't think she would think for long about why Familicide would make her fall.

And again, Miko shooting Hinjo's proposal down immidiately is "a token affort" in regards to thinking about bringing Shojo to justice properly. She did have a reason for killing him then and there without the courts involved, even if that reason was in her head only.

Really, what's with so many people demonizing Miko? She's been a paladin for years, and her only fall was because of incomplete information and a feeling of personal betrayal. She didn't turn Chaotic Evil all of a sudden, there is really no reason to believe that she even changed her alignment at all in any direction. She only lost her paladinhood and she still tried to act in the interests of her gods and her city. And really, none of her actions after were malicious, just really ill-timed.

[Keltest]

I really don't think you understand Miko. If you tell her that she'll fall for using it, she wouldn't do it. Because to Miko, being an exemplar paladin of the Twelwe Gods is all she's ever aspired to be. If she knows she will fall for doing something then she also knows that that something is against the will of the Twelwe Gods. And since Black Dragons are Evil (of course), killing just them can't be against their will, so that's a caveat that something is wrong with the spell. And considering that it appears to be common knowledge that the dragons sometimes mate with other races, I don't think she would think for long about why Familicide would make her fall.

And again, Miko shooting Hinjo's proposal down immidiately is "a token affort" in regards to thinking about bringing Shojo to justice properly. She did have a reason for killing him then and there without the courts involved, even if that reason was in her head only.

Really, what's with so many people demonizing Miko? She's been a paladin for years, and her only fall was because of incomplete information and a feeling of personal betrayal. She didn't turn Chaotic Evil all of a sudden, there is really no reason to believe that she even changed her alignment at all in any direction. She only lost her paladinhood and she still tried to act in the interests of her gods and her city. And really, none of her actions after were malicious, just really ill-timed.

Im not sure YOU understand Miko. In her mind, she was the exemplar paladin. Period. She had a very much "I am good, therefore anything I do is good." mentality. If presented with familicide, she would not go "Twelve Gods that is terrible! A weapon that can kill thousands of innocents!" She would go "Twelve Gods, this is wonderful! A weapon that can wipe out massive chunks of enemy populations! Thank you Twelve Gods for delivering unto me this weapon, you clearly desire for me to use it." And then she would use it, fall and be horribly confused.

[Kish]

I really don't think you understand Miko. If you tell her that she'll fall for using it, she wouldn't do it. Because to Miko, being an exemplar paladin of the Twelwe Gods is all she's ever aspired to be. If she knows she will fall for doing something then she also knows that that something is against the will of the Twelwe Gods. And since Black Dragons are Evil (of course), killing just them can't be against their will, so that's a caveat that something is wrong with the spell. And considering that it appears to be common knowledge that the dragons sometimes mate with other races, I don't think she would think for long about why Familicide would make her fall.
More than that, Rich said that she would not kill a kobold for being a kobold, and that her "Then its destruction was just and necessary" line was only meant to indicate she was prepared to let Roy slide for killing a chromatic dragon, not that she would have attacked without first using Detect Evil had she been the one to encounter a black dragon.*

*No, I can't prove it. It was years and years ago, shortly after Miko said the line in question, when someone whose avatar-comment...back when we had those...was "Miko Miyazaki doesn't care about green people!" said that Miko would slaughter kobolds out of hand.

[Angelalex242]

Considering #251, are we sure Miko Miyazaki cares about ANY people, regardless of color? As Roy points out, when has she ever shown concern for the dignity and well being of sentient beings? She'd a beat stick infused with holy power, but completely forgot every other part of what being good meant. Still, she was such a good holy beat stick that the 12 gods let it slide till the line got crossed.

[Vladier]

Im not sure YOU understand Miko. In her mind, she was the exemplar paladin. Period. She had a very much "I am good, therefore anything I do is good." mentality. If presented with familicide, she would not go "Twelve Gods that is terrible! A weapon that can kill thousands of innocents!" She would go "Twelve Gods, this is wonderful! A weapon that can wipe out massive chunks of enemy populations! Thank you Twelve Gods for delivering unto me this weapon, you clearly desire for me to use it." And then she would use it, fall and be horribly confused.

And that's how she's been a paladin of the Twewe Gods for all these years - caring only for her own Goodness and Lawfulness. Surely, the Twelwe Gods would really appreciate her for being such a person and grant her more and more holy powers.

You know, I'm really tired of this view of Miko. She wasn't Evil. She was Lawful Good, that's a requirement for being a paladin in the first place. And she did show concern for other people (like saving the dirt farmers, people in the burning inn and reprimanding the Order of the Stick for causing so much damage to the livelyhood of the innkeeper - she was a jerk in the last case, but she did have a point, even if she didn't really know that). She also, being a former monk and a paladin, probably had at least decent Wisdom. And I repeat, that no, she wouldn't happily jump to an occasion of using an Epic Necromancy (and probably has Vile as a descriptor) spell that kills entities you don't even know and can't use Detect Evil on, jist like she would never willingly become a Black Guard (the powers of which she, too, could use only to slay evil beings, thus always being in the right). She didn't even try to kill Belkar before she's got confirmation of his evilness.

Indeed, her "I can't be wrong, and this beige outfit and lack of my powers is merely a test by the Twelwe Gods" bit came to be only after her liege and basically a father figure turned out to be a traitor to the city and a conspirator with an evil lich and foul Order of the Stick, which was true in her mind. She clearly was in denial over this, as the cituation required either her believing that she is right, that Shojo and the Order are Evil and conspire to destroy the Azure City and put the whole world into danger, that the Twelwe Gods merely test her resolve, or that she was wrong and the person who gave her the life of a paladin of the Sapphire Guard and was basically an adoptive father to her now lies dead and was slain by her hand because of a misunderstanding. It's not hard to see why she chose to lie to herself (and frankly, that rock that freed her from her prison would only strenghten her delusions or those of anyone, really, in her place).

Miko was certainly not a perfect paladin, but paladin nonetheless, even if she was supposed to represent "how to never roleplay a paladin in a game ever" and had to be kept as far away from people as possible because of her severely lacking social skills. Also, Roy's rudeness to her, first as a mere love interest and then, right after she agreed that maybe they could one day try to make something out of it, rudeness to her as a crazy-ex-not-really, didn't help the image of the Order in her head.

[evileeyore]

I'm with Vladier on this one.

[137beth]

Wow, a combined Familicide and "young dragon vs. home invaders" thread.

Doubling up the horror and despair for a uniquely satisfying confection of train wreck, one presumes. :smallwink:

Edit: with bonus Miko action, too. It's a three-fer!

I'm not sure combining all those topics into one thread is Morally Justified...


I really don't think you understand Miko. If you tell her that she'll fall for using it, she wouldn't do it. Because to Miko, being an exemplar paladin of the Twelwe Gods is all she's ever aspired to be. If she knows she will fall for doing something then she also knows that that something is against the will of the Twelwe Gods.
You're missing a step. If you tell Miko she would fall for doing something, that wouldn't mean she would believe you until it happened (at which point it would be 'obvious' to her that you were part of a conspiracy to force her to fall). She wouldn't do anything if she actually knew, and believed, that it would result in her fall, but whether she believes she would fall for an obvious falling-offense is anyone's guess (aside from the one time where she did fall, for something that should obviously cause her to fall, but didn't expect it because she was insane.)

[Angelalex242]

To add to the point, it is worth remembering, back in 406, Hinjo was doing his level best to convince Miko to mellow out and take a more gentle approach. He even tried to distract her (justifiably) with the bigass goblin invasion that was obviously evil and needed smiting.

He was all but pleading and begging her not to go flying off the handle. Even Belkar, not exactly a paragon of goodness, just before she fell was saying '...she wouldn't...' Hinjo was saying 'you're scaring me'...

If everyone in the room, good and evil both, is horrified at the idea of you doing something...you've gotta be pretty far down the ladder of madness to ignore them all and do it anyway.

[Amphiox]

Yes, OOTS would never kill goblins in their sleep or kill police sent to arrest them when escaping from jail without much thought or regret, or kill group of ogres while they were still sleeping unless they got up and had a good breakfast, but Miko would.

And Miko would have immediately fallen but Roy would be in good afterlife after all the goblins that he didn't kill just for being goblins, etc. Roy would treat everyone including Elan and Miko like a saint, Roy would never be greedy and want to stay in a hotel to cost as much as possible rather than save the money to feed orphans, etc.

That is because Miko has prejudice that colors her opinions and actions unlike you and me and OOTS.

A paladin call fall and still remain Lawful Good, and get into the lawful good afterlife. If Miko had done those things Roy did, it is possible she might have fallen, but still get the good afterlife. The ethical bar for paladin hood is a notch higher than standard lawful good. They aren't just required to be lawful good, after all. They are supposed to be EXEMPLARS of lawfulness and goodness.

If Roy had been a paladin, he might have fallen for doing those things.

But, see, Roy was not a paladin.

[Keltest]

A paladin call fall and still remain Lawful Good, and get into the lawful good afterlife. If Miko had done those things Roy did, it is possible she might have fallen, but still get the good afterlife. The ethical bar for paladin hood is a notch higher than standard lawful good. They aren't just required to be lawful good, after all. They are supposed to be EXEMPLARS of lawfulness and goodness.

If Roy had been a paladin, he might have fallen for doing those things.

But, see, Roy was not a paladin.

He could have been though, which leads to an interesting "what-if" scenario. Based on his motivations for being a fighter, I imagine that only his distance with the gods kept him from striving for paladin hood.

[Angelalex242]

That always struck me...Roy would actually be a better Paladin then Miko ever was. I suppose the real reason he can't take a Paladin level is that so long as he remains Belkar's jailer, 'association with evil' would be problematic.

[Keltest]

That always struck me...Roy would actually be a better Paladin then Miko ever was. I suppose the real reason he can't take a Paladin level is that so long as he remains Belkar's jailer, 'association with evil' would be problematic.

Define "Better." While Miko certainly lost it at the end, Roy pushed the envelope of his alignment as much as Miko, only on the law/chaos axis, as noted in his review. While paladins are the champions of good, Both facets of alignment matter, and a paladin who steals from a local lord because the peasants need some food isn't much of a paladin at all, even if their heart is in the right place (unless the lord is deliberately hoarding all the food, in which case calling it theft is debatable)

[Angelalex242]

By Better, I mean as dictated by #490, Roy is trying. He's trying very hard to be Lawful Good. He doesn't always succeed, it's true...but chaotic actions do not make one fall. Not unless they're so consistent they take you out of Lawful totally.

So long as Roy earns rest on Mt. Celestia and does no evil, he'd be a better Paladin then Miko ever was.

Notwithstanding the problematic association with Belkar.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't know of better is entirely the right word (although I'd probably like him more than Miko), but I think he would still have made a good Paladin, even though he acts in a Chaotic fashion sometimes.

[Keltest]

I don't know of better is entirely the right word (although I'd probably like him more than Miko), but I think he would still have made a good Paladin, even though he acts in a Chaotic fashion sometimes.

I remember once I played a paladin who constantly prayed for guidance. The Pantheon wasn't especially established in that world, so we basically made it so I was a follower of the god of Laughter and snark. It was a fun campaign. You ask for a miracle, and suddenly everybody is laughing at you so much they cant attack.

[Angelalex242]

...Now THAT is a God Roy would be a Paladin of. Considering the biggest 'black mark' on his resume was his unending amounts of snark, he would totally follow a god of laughter and snark so he can 'do the will of his deity' by snarking off on people. :P

[Keltest]

...Now THAT is a God Roy would be a Paladin of. Considering the biggest 'black mark' on his resume was his unending amounts of snark, he would totally follow a god of laughter and snark so he can 'do the will of his deity' by snarking off on people. :P

We had a generic magic item called "Ring of the schoolgirl." which gave you a 5% chance to paralyze enemies with laughter if you ran away screaming like a schoolgirl (dress included as part of the effect.) Followers of that god got double the chance.

[Angelalex242]

Paralyze? As in, held?

I guess, in mass warfare, given to a guy with no dignity...paralyzing 10 percent of enemy troops could be a decisive blow.

It'd be better if it was a will save, though. (DC 15, 19 if you follow the god?)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That definitely sounds like a fun campaign, and a god of snark is totally one Roy would get behind.

[Keltest]

Paralyze? As in, held?

I guess, in mass warfare, given to a guy with no dignity...paralyzing 10 percent of enemy troops could be a decisive blow.

It'd be better if it was a will save, though. (DC 15, 19 if you follow the god?)

Yeah, but making a will save for each of the 40 orcs chasing you is hard. so its just a chance for the magic to work and affect everyone.

/shrug


That definitely sounds like a fun campaign, and a god of snark is totally one Roy would get behind.

It got even better the one time I got petrified (yes, turned to stone) and I was holding the appropriately named Drow Bane sword that we basically needed to hurt the enemy at all. Hilarity ensued when they broke my freaking arm off to get to the sword.

[Wardog]

Ive been told that 2 legs + 2 wings = wyvern, whether or not there is a poison stinger. So Skyrim dragons are actually wyverns. Apparently the original Drake myths were only tangentially related to actual dragons.

Correct about the wyverns, but I don't think that's true about drakes. Drake is just another word for dragon, from the same Latin root (draco), but with a different route into English:


http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=drake&searchmode=none


dragon (n.) early 13c., from Old French dragon, from Latin draconem (nominative draco) "huge serpent, dragon," from Greek drakon (genitive drakontos) "serpent, giant seafish," apparently from drak-, strong aorist stem of derkesthai "to see clearly," from PIE *derk- "to see." Perhaps the literal sense is "the one with the (deadly) glance."

The young are dragonets (14c.). Obsolete drake "dragon" is an older borrowing of the same word. Used in the Bible to translate Hebrew tannin "a great sea-monster," and tan, a desert mammal now believed to be the jackal.


drake (n.2) archaic for "dragon," from Old English draca "dragon, sea monster, huge serpent," from Proto-Germanic *drako (cognates: Middle Dutch and Old Frisian drake, Dutch draak, Old High German trahho, German drache), an early borrowing from Latin draco (see dragon).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Correct about the wyverns, but I don't think that's true about drakes. Drake is just another word for dragon, from the same Latin root (draco), but with a different route into English:


http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=drake&searchmode=none

Huh, that's interesting to know.

[Vinyadan]

Ive been told that 2 legs + 2 wings = wyvern

Well, they could also be a chicken. :smalltongue:

But I think that there's a god Roy would follow even more happily than a god of snark.

http://s29.postimg.org/43enjhl9z/1384714407405.jpg

[evileeyore]

But I think that there's a god Roy would follow even more happily than a god of snark.

http://s29.postimg.org/43enjhl9z/1384714407405.jpg
Ahhh, Sithrak. What can't be blamed on He Who Is The Cause?


Note: That comic is from Oglaf (http://oglaf.com/). 60% of which is NSFW and the other 40% of which is NSFH (Not Safe For Humans).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ahhh, Sithrak. What can't be blamed on He Who Is The Cause?


Note: That comic is from Oglaf (http://oglaf.com/). 60% of which is NSFW and the other 40% of which is NSFH (Not Safe For Humans).

Which is, of course, why you provide a link to it. :smalltongue:

[Keltest]

Which is, of course, why you provide a link to it. :smalltongue:

Of course. Nobody is at work right now. Well, not anybody with the opportunity for an internet break anyway.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Of course. Nobody is at work right now. Well, not anybody with the opportunity for an internet break anyway.

Not everyone lives in the same time zone, you know. And there remains the problem of the humanity of the majority of posters.

[Keltest]

Not everyone lives in the same time zone, you know. And there remains the problem of the humanity of the majority of posters.

What, you mean you aren't a hive-mind made up of local insects that break into houses and steal internet?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

What, you mean you aren't a hive-mind made up of local insects that break into houses and steal internet?

...How did you know?

[Keltest]

...How did you know?

I read minds through the internetz.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I read minds through the internetz.

That's an impressive power. You've managed to ruin decades of planning done by the hive-mind. :smallmad:

[evileeyore]

Which is, of course, why you provide a link to it. :smalltongue:
Well, I am Evil.*

And thus the corruption of humanity takes another inexorable step forward.




* But not so Evil as to drop a TvTropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenEvilHasStandards) link without acknowledging as such. Now that's true Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilMakesYouMonstrous).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, I am Evil.*

And thus the corruption of humanity takes another inexorable step forward.




* But not so Evil as to drop a TvTropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenEvilHasStandards) link without acknowledging as such. Now that's true Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilMakesYouMonstrous).

That's nice of you to do. I mean, I'll still get trapped in an endless wiki walk, but I'll have only myself to blame.

[Darth Paul]

Even EvilEeyore Has Standards! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenEvilHasStandards)