Nines, Nines, Everywhere?

[malonkey1]

Alright, I know there are a few ways to get full nines in Arcane/Divine, probably also for Divine/Psi or Psi/Arcane. I'm curious, though, as to how many full-nines (arcane, divine, psionic, ToB, shadowcasting, anything else with nine levels) can be fit in a build without resorting to Gestalt and Epic Levels? (Cheese is perfectly valid)

[Psyren]

You might want to specify "pre-epic" - otherwise some wiseass* will come in here and say something like "Wizard 20/Cleric 20/Psion 20/Warblade 20..."


*<-----

[Emperor Tippy]

Wizard/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theuge/ Ardent can get 9's in Arcane, Divine, and Psionics by ECL 20.

There exists no way to cram 9th level maneuvers in there without cheating via magic items.

[Jeff the Green]

There exists no way to cram 9th level maneuvers in there without cheating via magic items.

Nor, I believe, shadowcasting. Nor 8th-level vestiges.

[EugeneVoid]

Hatchling Phaerimm gives casting for some HD and LA,
Bloodlines boost IL unusually.
Psychic Theurge with Ur-Priest and Divine Power for BAB.

I'm mostly a lurker

[Jeff the Green]

Bloodlines boost IL unusually.

If bloodlines are in, we can get 9th-level arcane and divine spells, powers, maneuvers and mysteries, plus 8th-level vestiges, at level 6. Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Psion 1/Shadowcaster 1/Warblade 1/Binder 1 with 16 bloodline levels. Bloodline levels aren't actually levels and so don't affect your ECL or the rate at which you gain XP, but they advance class features of all your classes. Add in one more class level (incarnate) and two more bloodline levels and you'll also have access to all chakra binds.

This is why friends don't let friends use bloodlines.

[BloodyMartian]

Bloodlines would allow you to learn maneuvers through feats since the only requirement is IL which is class level based and boosted by the bloodlines. However you would only gain CL not spellcasting from the bloodline levels.

[Jeff the Green]

Bloodlines would allow you to learn maneuvers through feats since the only requirement is IL which is class level based and boosted by the bloodlines. However you would only gain CL not spellcasting from the bloodline levels.

Odd. Why was I remembering it that way? :smallconfused:

It still might help us out a bit. Wizard 3/Warblade 1/Ardent 1/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Cerebremancer 6. With seven appropriately timed bloodline levels, manifester level boosts totaling +3, and two feats (Southern Magician at 3rd and Martial Study at 18th) you should be able to have quadruple nines. Granted, you need as much XP to reach level 20 as a normal character would to reach 27, but you're still ECL 20.

I'm not certain, but I think that if you picked Phaerimm, bought off the LA, and were willing to use variants, you could get 9th arcane, 9th divine, 9th powers, 9th maneuvers, and 8th vestiges. Something like Binder 2/Swordsage 1/Ardent 1/Ur-Priest 1/Divine Anima Mage 10/Binder 3/Ardent +1 (2)/Swordsage +1 (2). (And, of course, you could do this without ToB or bloodlines for just arcane, divine, psionic, and pact.)

[prufock]

16 bloodline levels

With seven appropriately timed bloodline levels
You're into some serious homebrew territory there, since published bloodlines have at most 3 levels, as far as I know (for Major Bloodlines).

[Jeff the Green]

There's nothing indicating you can only have a single bloodline. Take two major and one minor.

[prufock]

There's nothing indicating you can only have a single bloodline. Take two major and one minor.

Ahh, I see. Also, just had a couple issues:


Something like Binder 2/Swordsage 1/Ardent 1/Ur-Priest 1/Divine Anima Mage 10/Binder 3/Ardent +1 (2)/Swordsage +1 (2)
Arcane and divine work, but:
Initiator Level: 2 (SS) + 9 (18/2 other) = 11?
Soul Binding: 15, works but just mentioning you need the Improved Binding feat.
Psionics: I assume you're using some sort of power point boost to get 9ths?

[Jeff the Green]

Arcane and divine work, but:
Initiator Level: 2 (SS) + 9 (18/2 other) = 11?
Soul Binding: 15, works but just mentioning you need the Improved Binding feat.
Psionics: I assume you're using some sort of power point boost to get 9ths?

No, it's 2 (SS) + 7 (Bloodline) + 9 (other) = 18 Edit: Actually, that's conservative. I think you could make an argument that bloodlines give you IL = bloodline_level(1 + 0.5 * number_of_other_classes), which would be 7(1 + 0.5 * 4) = 21, for a final IL of 32.

Yes, I should have mentioned that.

Do you mean manifester level boosts? Then yes. 2 (Ardent) + 7 (Bloodline) + 8 (misc.) = 17. Manifester level's pretty easy to boost. Practiced Manifester knocks off four to begin with, an ioun stone another one. I'm not good enough with psionics to say off the top of my head exactly how to get the other three, but I've seen it done.

[prufock]

No, it's 2 (SS) + 7 (Bloodline) + 9 (other) = 18 Edit: Actually, that's conservative. I think you could make an argument that bloodlines give you IL = bloodline_level(1 + 0.5 * number_of_other_classes), which would be 7(1 + 0.5 * 4) = 21, for a final IL of 32.

Yes, I should have mentioned that.

Do you mean manifester level boosts? Then yes. 2 (Ardent) + 7 (Bloodline) + 8 (misc.) = 17. Manifester level's pretty easy to boost. Practiced Manifester knocks off four to begin with, an ioun stone another one. I'm not good enough with psionics to say off the top of my head exactly how to get the other three, but I've seen it done.

Ok, I didn't see BL mentioned in that list so I was thinking you were working without them for that build. Thanks.

[Feint's End]

Yeah I'm also wondering how most people here get psionic 9ths with an ardent. I mean practised manifested helps out but you would need another massive ml boost and then I wouldn't consider it to be "real nines" since you would be extremely limited. Mind to elaborate?

Then again this is a cheese thread ...

[PraxisVetli]

It's a feat, called Overcharge or something. I only remember it allows you to take damage, I believe in the form of nonlethal d8's, to raise your ML.
sorry for vague, I don't fully remember.

[Jeff the Green]

It's a feat, called Overcharge or something. I only remember it allows you to take damage, I believe in the form of nonlethal d8's, to raise your ML.
sorry for vague, I don't fully remember.

Overchannel, yes, but it doesn't work for this.

[PraxisVetli]

Overchannel, yes, but it doesn't work for this.

Well, then I got nothin, sorry.

[*.*.*.*]

Naehoon-Krau Illumian with enhanced sigils gets +3 CL(which would be +3 ML with transparency), then you could take practiced manifester and magic mantle with practiced caster for +8.

[malonkey1]

Yeah I'm also wondering how most people here get psionic 9ths with an ardent. I mean practised manifested helps out but you would need another massive ml boost and then I wouldn't consider it to be "real nines" since you would be extremely limited. Mind to elaborate?

Then again this is a cheese thread ...

It's due to a quirk that the Ardent, in RAW, has no stated maximum power levels, so it can manifest any power its manifester level allows based on point cost.

[otakumick]

If you wish to be especially cheesy with the ardent, super natural transformation (manifesting) comes to mind.

[Hecuba]

If we can resort to licensed 3rd party, Athas.org (which was the official maintainer of Dark Sun for 3rd ed.) published an arcane analog for Ur-Priest, Shadow Templar (ST hereafter).
It does not have the evil requirement that Ur-Priest does, so it can be combined with Rainbow Servant (RS hereafter) to cover Arcane & Divine: with some (rather shameless) early entry shenanigans (magical training, versatile spellcaster, sanctum spell) you can cover arcane and divine with 1 level of ST and 10 RS.

Add on Warblade/Legacy champion and you should be able to hit IL 17, or alternately Ardent and some ML boosts can get psionics.

Our if you are willing to get into DCS level cheese, you can get all 4 by using feats rather than classes for the arcane casting.

[Forrestfire]

Psion/Thrallherd, Fusion with your thrall, Astral Seed, get a new thrall of a different class, repeat.

[Feint's End]

Naehoon-Krau Illumian with enhanced sigils gets +3 CL(which would be +3 ML with transparency), then you could take practiced manifester and magic mantle with practiced caster for +8.

Doesn't work. Increases in CL have no effect on psionics because it's not part of transparency. CL increases are only CL increases and ML increases are only ML increases.


It's due to a quirk that the Ardent, in RAW, has no stated maximum power levels, so it can manifest any power its manifester level allows based on point cost.

Maybe you don't know me but I know quite a lot about psionics so I am aware of this for a very, very long time. Still ... aside from enormous amounts of cheese (and interpretation of some rules) you can't get permanent 9ths with just one level of Ardent.

[Rubik]

The StP erudite alone can nab 9ths in arcane, divine, and psionics using a few tricks, and can even grab them from outside his normal psion/wiz/sorc list (including ranger/paladin/bard/cleric/druid spells).

An erudite 17/prestige bard 1/prestige paladin 1/prestige ranger 1 can nab all of the spell lists of the bard, paladin, and ranger (using Southern Magician to qualify for the divine casting and the mantled erudite [Magic Mantle] to qualify for Southern Magician).

An erudite 17/illithid savant 3 can grab 9th level maneuvers from one initiator class.


Doesn't work. Increases in CL have no effect on psionics because it's not part of transparency. CL increases are only CL increases and ML increases are only ML increases.Some CL increases do work, since transparency says that various things affect psionics as if they were magic, including spells and items. An orange ioun stone, for instance, increases both CL and ML by +1, and (Greater) Consumptive Field will also raise your ML.

[Feint's End]

Some CL increases do work, since transparency says that various things affect psionics as if they were magic, including spells and items. An orange ioun stone, for instance, increases both CL and ML by +1, and (Greater) Consumptive Field will also raise your ML.

Could you dig up a quote/ruling? I just read through the Transparency rules and couldn't find anything supporting that but I guess I could have missed something.
Anyways the Increase in CL from Illumian doesn't work.

Now even if you get to this ML temporarily how do you get the powers necessary? I mean I know of cheesy ways to do it but I think if you compare it to a Wizard/Ur Priest Theurge it isn't really on par. Then again ... this is an optimization thread and I know it's technically possible.

[squiggit]

Could you dig up a quote/ruling? I just read through the Transparency rules and couldn't find anything supporting that but I guess I could have missed something.

I think they're extrapolating that from the "magic items that could effect psionics do" line.

[Rubik]

I think they're extrapolating that from the "magic items that could effect psionics do" line.Basically, yes. Magic/psionics transparency explicitly includes magical and psionic items in the things that affect each one the same (if possible), and "+1 CL" translates perfectly to "+1 ML." And (Greater) Consumptive Field, of course, does the same, since spells and powers that can interact with the other system do so normally under regular transparency.

And since my suggestion above includes a Magic Mantled erudite anyway, if the DM doesn't use transparency, you can still do this, regardless of whether it's otherwise in effect.


Anyways the Increase in CL from Illumian doesn't work.Not under standard-issue transparency, no, but it's easily translatable. Ask your DM.


Now even if you get to this ML temporarily how do you get the powers necessary? I mean I know of cheesy ways to do it but I think if you compare it to a Wizard/Ur Priest Theurge it isn't really on par. Then again ... this is an optimization thread and I know it's technically possible.Link Power'd Psychic Reformation would work, or you could use Psionic Contingency for it. Also, Bend Reality or Reality Revision.

[AlsoD]

Illithid Savants should be able to get at least 4 9's if you can enter early enough (probably via Incarnate Construct and changeling cheese)

[atemu1234]

Illithid Savants should be able to get at least 4 9's if you can enter early enough (probably via Incarnate Construct and changeling cheese)

Reminds me of an Ulitharid Illithid Savant 8 I once made. Took Academic Priest, stole Cleric casting, then stole wizard casting. One of my favorites.