Question on paladin's honor code

[Hazrond]

If a demon/devil (let's say succubus in this example) charmed a paladin wouldnt the paladin fall there on the spot due to the "not associate with evil beings" clause of their code and the fact that charm makes them consider you their best friend?

[thatryanguy]

Couldn't tell you rules wise, but I suspect the Gods would have clauses in place in case of magical compulsion.

[Talar]

That is just a jerk move though. Making a paladin fall because they failed a save? Lets ignore the fact that at that point the paladin is not under his own power having been affected by a mind compulsion effect. This trying to see how to make paladin's fall is just mean to a class that lags behind as is. I am also a fan of players ceratin their own codes since it encourages creativity and makes the paladin unique.

[Segev]

If a demon/devil (let's say succubus in this example) charmed a paladin wouldnt the paladin fall there on the spot due to the "not associate with evil beings" clause of their code and the fact that charm makes them consider you their best friend?

Not quite. Their code doesn't say they won't; the class says they won't. There's no "oath" or rule that forbids them from hanging around evil beings. They just generally don't willingly do so for a variety of reasons (up to and including the fact that persistently evil beings will likely force the Paladin to have to stop them, with violence if necessary).

If a succubus Charms a Paladin, she still can't force him to perform overtly evil (or even necessarily chaotic) acts, but she could use her influence (and opposed Charisma checks...which she might find surprisingly hard with a Paladin) to convince him that something she's asking of him is "okay."

If she succeeds, and he performs a chaotic or evil act while under her sway, he will fall. But he is well within his rights to seek an Atonement and expect nothing harsher than "go undo the damage done" or "go right the wrong committed" or "go take out the evil succubus who is the source of your transgression" as his atoning work. In the latter case, he might even get his powers back when he begins to face her down.

[Lord_Gareth]

Couldn't tell you rules wise, but I suspect the Gods would have clauses in place in case of magical compulsion.

Ahem.

PALADINS DO NOT DERIVE THEIR POWER FROM GODS EXCEPT IN THE FORGOTTEN REALMS AND/OR GOLARION IF YOU ARE PLAYING PATHFINDER.

That is all.

[Segev]

Couldn't tell you rules wise, but I suspect the Gods would have clauses in place in case of magical compulsion.

Rules-wise, the code specifies that any evil or chaotic act will cause loss of powers. However, unwilling (which being Charmed qualifies as) acts can be Atoned. (Willing Chaotic acts can be, too. Willing Evil acts...cannot.)

[Hazrond]

That is just a jerk move though. Making a paladin fall because they failed a save? Lets ignore the fact that at that point the paladin is not under his own power having been affected by a mind compulsion effect. This trying to see how to make paladin's fall is just mean to a class that lags behind as is. I am also a fan of players ceratin their own codes since it encourages creativity and makes the paladin unique.

I'm not trying to cause a fall, I was just reading the other paladin falls thread and this thought popped into my head, also in this case all that would be needed to become redeemed is an Atonement spell because of the magic involved, am I incorrect in this assumption?

[Red Fel]

Two points.

Point the first:

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
(Emphasis added.) An action subject to magical compulsion is not a willing act.

Second, the Paladin does not fall for violating the code, at least not in isolated instances. Re-read it. A Paladin falls for "willingly commit[ting] an evil act." The Code is a way of life, but violating it - including violating the provisions on associates - is not grounds for falling.

More explicitly:
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. (Emphasis added.) Again, this clause does not say, "This is an evil act for which a Paladin will lose class abilities;" rather, it says, "Paladins don't do that sort of thing."

Basically, remember that the Code is how your Paladin lives her life (and how you play the character); only an independently Evil act (or, perhaps, repeated and flagrant violations of the Code) will cause a fall.

[tyckspoon]

Rules-wise, the code specifies that any evil or chaotic act will cause loss of powers. However, unwilling (which being Charmed qualifies as) acts can be Atoned. (Willing Chaotic acts can be, too. Willing Evil acts...cannot.)

It actually only specifies any evil act. Chaotic is fine as long as you still maintain a generally Lawful alignment (the code does tend to incorrectly imply that chaotic acts are dishonorable, but that's a separate issue. Do No Evil is the big red Fall one.)

[SethoMarkus]

Rules-wise, the code specifies that any evil or chaotic act will cause loss of powers. However, unwilling (which being Charmed qualifies as) acts can be Atoned. (Willing Chaotic acts can be, too. Willing Evil acts...cannot.)

Actually, assuming 3.5 and not Pathfinder, rules-wise it says any Evil act will cause loss of powers. It needs to be a willing act as well, so nothing under a compulsion would work (unless the Paladin willingly failed the save, I guess?).


Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment
and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate
authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison,
and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help
for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten
innocents.

Aside from that, nothing else in the code specifies any penalty for acting against the code. By RAW, as long as the Paladin continues to act Lawfully enough as to not have an alignment shift, they can engage in as much Chaotic behavior as they please.


Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any
good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate
with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with
someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may
accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Relevant to the OP, I would say the same thing as my previous comment on committing an evil act. Associating with a demon while under the influence of a Charm spell would not fall under "knowingly associating."

In either case, it always comes down to individual DM ruling, but I agree with Talar, that is a jerk move and unnecessary. If you want to make the Paladin feel useless, just throw them at a challenge that can't be defeated with a beatstick.

[Nerd-o-rama]

If you want to make the Paladin feel useless, just throw them at a challenge that can't be defeated with a beatstick.

Or just put them in a party with a Cleric.

Also wow, I've spent like 12 years defending Paladins in threads like these and never noticed that Code violations aren't actually grounds for losing class features. I still would as a GM if a Paladin is like egregiously over the line, because you're not a Paladin unless you act like one.

But yes a magical compulsion = not a willing commission of an Evil act. I might require an Atonement spell, or at least expect the character to want to seek either magical or metaphysical atonement.

[Divide by Zero]

Ahem. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm)

If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds and acts of a knowing and willful nature, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 500 XP) in order to expunge the subject’s burden.
How is that not ten characters?