Tricksy Whips

[Red Fel]

Okay. So I was recently on a bit of a Pyrokineticist bender. Having now come down from that, I have instead gotten excited over all of the neat things Pathfinder lets you do with a whip. It's more than a bit of an upgrade over what 3.5 offered.

The purpose of this thread, very simply, is to discuss (and possibly debate) the neat things you can pull with a whip. Obvious ones include the classic trip and disarm maneuvers, but I'd like to offer the following combinations for review, with the question: Does it work?

Okay. Consider. Weapon Finesse allows you to use Dex-to-CMB in place of Str for combat maneuvers performed with weapons. (Per the FAQ, when you're actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, you can replace Str with Dex via WF.) Let's say you also have Serpent Lash/Greater Serpent Lash. This has the awesome bonus of taking any target within your whip's range and moving him to any other point within your whip's range. ("You! There!") Let's say you also take Improved Reposition/Greater Reposition, offsetting the reposition penalty from SL and letting you move the guy while attracting AoOs against him from your buddies. The question: Can you use WF to get Dex-to-CMB for the purpose of GSW's reposition, move the guy around pretty much in front of all of your allies, provoking AoOs and turning him into a pinata?

Next combination. Start with WF again. Take Greater Whip Mastery (and its prereqs) so that you can grapple an enemy using your whip. Grab SL/GSL so that you can reposition. The question: Can you now grapple an enemy with your whip, and then reposition him while grappled?

Penultimate question: Let's say you took them all together. Could you use your Dex to grapple a target, reposition the target, swing him past each of your allies to provoke an AoO in turn, and then place him somewhere at the far corner of your reach, then do the same thing next round, all while leaving him grappled?

Last question. We know whips are good for trips and disarms. They're now also fun for reposition. What other particularly nasty tricks can you come up with for a Pathfinder whip?

[Chernobyl]

Wow, that's awesome. One of the players in my group is running a Bard/Archaeologist with a whip. I'll show her these suggestions.

One thing though - I believe that Weapon Finesse only replaces your STR bonus with your DEX bonus for disarm, sunder, or trip attempts. You might want to look at Agile Maneuvers instead, which replaces your STR bonus with your DEX bonus for all combat maneuvers (including bull rush, grapple, and overrun).

Another feat you should look at is Fury's Fall, which adds your DEX bonus to your CMB for trip attempts. So the combination of Fury's Fall and either Agile Maneuvers OR Weapon Finesse would add double your DEX bonus to your BAB for tripping.

And while on the subject of tripping, if you get Greater Trip, you can force your opponent to provoke attacks of opportunity when you trip him. So as he's going down, your buddies get to stomp on his face. :smallamused:

Another neat whip trick is to get the Opening Volley feat. When in combat, you first attack with a ranged weapon, then you attack with the whip. If your ranged attack hits, you get a +4 to your whip CMB. If you really want to get clever, you get Quick Draw and stock up on some one-handed thrown weapons, such as hand axes, daggers, shurikens, etc. Then in combat you alternate:
1. Draw shuriken (free action)
2. Throw shuriken (standard action)
3. Attack with whip (+4 to CMB)
4. Repeat

Finally, if you're doing anything with whips, you should get Lunge, which increases your whip range by 5. The whip already has a range of 15 feet, so this increases it to 20.

Of course, that's a lot of feats, so it'll take a while to build it all up.

-Chernobyl

[Red Fel]

Wow, that's awesome. One of the players in my group is running a Bard/Archaeologist with a whip. I'll show her these suggestions.

It sure sounds awesome. I just have no idea if it actually works that way. :smallbiggrin:


One thing though - I believe that Weapon Finesse only replaces your STR bonus with your DEX bonus for disarm, sunder, or trip attempts. You might want to look at Agile Maneuvers instead, which replaces your STR bonus with your DEX bonus for all combat maneuvers (including bull rush, grapple, and overrun).

Yeah, that's one of those bits I wasn't sure about. I know that disarm, sunder, and trip work, because they're maneuvers made with the weapon, whereas bull rush, grapple, and overrun typically are not. However, the feats proposed above allow you to do things like grapple or reposition with the weapon; by that logic, it's possible, if not explicitly RAW, that WF might function for those maneuvers the way it functions for disarm, sunder or trip.


Another feat you should look at is Fury's Fall, which adds your DEX bonus to your CMB for trip attempts. So the combination of Fury's Fall and either Agile Maneuvers OR Weapon Finesse would add double your DEX bonus to your BAB for tripping.

And while on the subject of tripping, if you get Greater Trip, you can force your opponent to provoke attacks of opportunity when you trip him. So as he's going down, your buddies get to stomp on his face. :smallamused:

Bah, tripping is so passe. Sure, it's only a highly effective method of locking down an opponent, exposing him to attacks and forcing him to waste actions to become effective again. But look again at Serpent Lash and Greater Serpent Lash, which basically give you trip-cleave - when you successfully trip a target, you can trip another target within reach.

Now consider that the whip has a 15 foot reach.


Another neat whip trick is to get the Opening Volley feat. When in combat, you first attack with a ranged weapon, then you attack with the whip. If your ranged attack hits, you get a +4 to your whip CMB. If you really want to get clever, you get Quick Draw and stock up on some one-handed thrown weapons, such as hand axes, daggers, shurikens, etc. Then in combat you alternate:
1. Draw shuriken (free action)
2. Throw shuriken (standard action)
3. Attack with whip (+4 to CMB)
4. Repeat

Take that a step further. A whip is a melee weapon with reach, right? Well, not always. For example, the Pyrokineticist's Fire Lash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/pyrokineticist#TOC-Fire-Lash-Ps-), though it functions like a whip, performs ranged touch attacks. It is a ranged weapon.

Let that sink in. Feats which ordinarily apply to a whip apply to the Fire Lash... As well as feats that apply to ranged weapons. Feats like Point-Blank Shot. Or Opening Volley.

Still want to use a whip as a melee weapon? Nothing stopping you from dual-wielding a Fire Lash and a regular whip. And applying feats to both of them.


Finally, if you're doing anything with whips, you should get Lunge, which increases your whip range by 5. The whip already has a range of 15 feet, so this increases it to 20.

That is hideously evil, and you should be ashamed. Ashamed and so proud.

[Zubrowka74]

Wow, that's awesome. One of the players in my group is running a Bard/Archaeologist with a whip. I'll show her these suggestions.

Does she plan on taking either a Gunslinger dip or proficiency in the pistol by any chance? :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

The general rule is "if you use the weapon to perform the maneuver, WF is all you need. If not, you need AM."

Serpent Lash and GSL do in fact explicitly use your whip to perform the reposition - thus, Weapon Finesse applies, even though reposition is not one of the three general maneuvers listed in the ruling. On top of that, any to-hit bonuses on your whip (say, from an enhancement bonus) will also apply to the CMB check, getting you anywhere from +5 to +7 untyped to your check. (You can exceed a +5 enhancement using properties like Bane and Furious, which has the added benefit of causing your whip's damage to bypass epic DR.) For this reason, you should be using weapons to perform combat maneuvers wherever possible because this allows you to keep pace with the skyrocketing CMDs of your later opponents.