What can I have my Rogue do during fights with undead?

[Iron Angel]

I know Rogues can't do jack to undead, and the only thing I can think of is magic traps they have to fiddle with during the fight, but that gimmick is going to get old quick if I just keep using it. Any ideas? I don't want him to feel useless.

[FidgetySquirrel]

UMD a Wand of Cure Serious Wounds, I guess? I think someone on the forums mentioned a feat that lets you sneak attack undead, but I don't know what it's called or what book it's in.

[Regissoma]

You know there are ways to get SA on undead, such as Ghoul strike a spell that allows you to SA undead, the weapon augment crystal, penetrating strike acf.

[qwertyu63]

I know Rogues can't do jack to undead, and the only thing I can think of is magic traps they have to fiddle with during the fight, but that gimmick is going to get old quick if I just keep using it. Any ideas? I don't want him to feel useless.

Stab them anyway? I'm serious here.

Just because he doesn't get his massive sneak attack damage doesn't mean stabbing them (or using his weapon of choice is) is meaningless.

[Chernobyl]

Describe your rogue. What level is he, what feats does he have, and what does he have on hand?

[Zanos]

Stab them anyway? I'm serious here.

Just because he doesn't get his massive sneak attack damage doesn't mean stabbing them (or using his weapon of choice is) is meaningless.
1d4/1d6 damage tends to be pretty poor, especially since most undead have decent damage reduction.

[Eldariel]

Okay, few things:
1) Wand of Grave Strike (the spell is from Spell Compendium). UMD it. Swift action to cast (get Wand Chamber [Dungeonscape] to save your hands), allows you to sneak attack undead for a turn. 1st level spell so it's just 750gp a piece. Vinestrike does the same for Plants and Golem Strike for constructs. This covers 3 of the big invulnerable groups (Oozes and Elementals sadly lack similar convenient options)
2) Get Penetrating Strike alternative class feature from Dungeonscape. It allows you to Sneak Attack normally immune enemies for ½ while flanking. This trades away Trap Sense but let's face it, you didn't really use it anyways (the idea is not getting hit by traps in the first place). Combine with Darkstalker [Lords of Madness] and you can Sneak Attack almost anything.
3) UMD other spells or use alchemical items. Rogue is always carrying a toolbox of useful stuff around anyways so might as well put it to use. Simple alchemical items like Tanglefoot Bags might work on occasion and then there are Eggshell Grenades. More to the point, Wand of Grease, Wand of Web, Wand of Ray of Exhaustion, Wand of Orb of Force (CL10 - expensive as all get-out but a decent fallback option that also triggers Sneak Attack), etc. tend to have useful effects even if the save succeeds. Wands with Ray-spells in particular are nice since they tend to not have saves (to hit is still yours so it's only saves that are hard to land on Wanded spells) and they can be used to sneak attack when enemies are vulnerable.
4) Sneak around (Darkstalker, as previously mentioned, is still useful) and see what there is to do with terrain & al. Flanks or such might be options too. If you aren't that useful in terms of dealing damage, see what else there is to do.

[DeltaEmil]

Depending on your level, weapon, and money, truedeath crystals from the Magic Item Compendium will help.

[Vorandril]

Flanking bonuses are still a thing too.

Also you have the largest pool of skill points to pull from. Traps is definitely one thing, but just start trolling them if you can. =D

Intimidate intelligent ones, Tumble around and make mindless waste their Attacks of Opportunity.
Help the squishies by putting yourself between them and the minions trying to stop their spells.
Tumble in and out of range.
Also: Get an undead bane weapon if you're in an undead heavy setting. That thing be worth more than its weight in gold.

[Segev]

1) Keep a light club around as a backup weapon. Undead tend to have DR/slashing or DR/bludgeoning, rarely both. Make sure you've got magic weapon access to overcome DR/magic.
2) Wand of Grave Strike will let you sneak attack undead at the cost of 1 charge per round (and a swift action each round), provided you can make the UMD check.
3) Undead can still be flanked, so don't hesitate to provide a flanking bonus to your allies. If you really feel useless, you can do an attack against AC 10 to "aid another" an ally's attack, giving him +2 to hit on top of your flanking bonus.
4) While we're UMDing wands, try Command Undead.
5) Don't underestimate the value of sneaking by the combat entirely to see if there's something useful you can do on the far side of the room or something.

[KorbeltheReader]

I suspect this is a major reason why rogues were given access to UMD. Even just a wand of chill touch or grave strike covers this base pretty well at lower levels.

[morkendi]

Us tumble to position self to give others flanking bonus. If you have a good ac, position self in front of caster or cleric and go deffensive. Distract some and pull them down a hall you already cleared, climb the wall and bring them back effectively splitting the group of undead to make it easy. Build umd to get item with control undead, make them fight each other while you watch, then kill the last one standing. Just get creative.

[Iron Angel]

OK to answer the question about the Rogue, he's level 9. I'm taking over for our old DM who just ran a REALLY undead heavy campaign which frustrated the Rogue immensely and even made him consider a reroll. Unfortunately, where I'm picking up I can't evade Undead altogether. It just can't happen and still make the story work. I want the fights with undead to feel exciting to him as much as it does for everyone else but beyond the magic trap gimmick I'm at a loss. Theres no way he can reliably use a wand either, I suggested that to him. With a max of 12 in UMD he's failing that check over 50% of the time, and if there's anything I have learned, its that being forced to make failing checks consistently makes play LESS fun, not MORE.

[PaintByBlood]

There is an ACF that allows you to sneak attack undead with half your sneak attack dice in Complete Champion. feat that allows you to get sneak attack damage again
There is a different ACF in Dungeonscape that allows you to sneak attack anything normally immune to sneak attack, but you have to be flanking them.
In both cases you have to trade away your trap sense, and it happens at 3rd level. If you are past 3rd level, ask about retraining.

The other low level option is a wand of Grave Strike (Complete Adventurer), which takes a swift action, but will allow you to make sneak attacks against the undead for one round. If you go that route, it behooves you to put a wand chamber in one of your weapons, so that you don't have to specifically hold the wand.

EDIT: I seem to have been beaten by everyone. Oops!

In order to get better UMD checks, you could see about getting a custom +5/+10 item to boost the check. I'm not sure how kosher this is actually considered outside of theoretical optimizations and such, though.

[Zanos]

OK to answer the question about the Rogue, he's level 9. I'm taking over for our old DM who just ran a REALLY undead heavy campaign which frustrated the Rogue immensely and even made him consider a reroll. Unfortunately, where I'm picking up I can't evade Undead altogether. It just can't happen and still make the story work. I want the fights with undead to feel exciting to him as much as it does for everyone else but beyond the magic trap gimmick I'm at a loss. Theres no way he can reliably use a wand either, I suggested that to him. With a max of 12 in UMD he's failing that check over 50% of the time, and if there's anything I have learned, its that being forced to make failing checks consistently makes play LESS fun, not MORE.
Wands have a DC of 20, so how is he failing more than half the time unless he dumped Cha like a rock? Skill Mastery(UMD) would let him always pass without rolling.

[JusticeZero]

Beyond the great suggestions above, I'll note that this is a major reason why I am always very careful to communicate that the class is unnecessary in my games these days. Criminality is a vocation, not a character class.

[Chernobyl]

OK to answer the question about the Rogue, he's level 9. I'm taking over for our old DM who just ran a REALLY undead heavy campaign which frustrated the Rogue immensely and even made him consider a reroll. Unfortunately, where I'm picking up I can't evade Undead altogether. It just can't happen and still make the story work. I want the fights with undead to feel exciting to him as much as it does for everyone else but beyond the magic trap gimmick I'm at a loss. Theres no way he can reliably use a wand either, I suggested that to him. With a max of 12 in UMD he's failing that check over 50% of the time, and if there's anything I have learned, its that being forced to make failing checks consistently makes play LESS fun, not MORE.

If your player is really getting frustrated, and none of the great ideas presented in this thread satisfy him, then he might consider the retrain option. Basically, he would sacrifice one (or more) levels of rogue to pick up the equivalent in another class. The details may be found here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining), but the important bits are below:


When you retrain a class level, you lose all the benefits of the highest level you have in that class. You immediately select a different class, add a level in that class, and gain all the benefits of that new class level.
It takes 5 days to retrain one level in the Rogue class into one level in the Alchemist, Bard, Fighter, or Monk classes. Retraining one level in the Rogue class into one level in any other class (outside of the aforementioned four) takes 7 days. Retraining takes all your attention for 8 hours per day for a number of days based on what you're retraining.
Retraining costs gp equal to 10 × your level × the number of days required to retrain.
You must meet all prerequisites, requirements, and considerations for whatever you're trying to acquire. If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.
Training requires spending time with a character who has at least 1 more level in the class you're retraining than your current level in that class. If no trainer is available (such as if you are at the highest level for that class), you still have the option to retrain without a trainer by spending double the time.

So, for example, the next time the party stops off at a town to rest for a week, your party cleric could retrain your 9th level Rogue into an 8th level Rogue / 1st level Cleric, which would give him the ability to channel positive energy against undead. Then you buy him a grayflame weapon and show him how to channel energy into it.

-Chernobyl

[Segev]

Yeah, 12 ranks of UMD means he succeeds on an 8 or more. Get a masterwork wand-holder (justify it as having fingering positions or phonetic command word helpers printed on it) for an additional +2 bonus, and it goes to 6 or more. A circlet of persuasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#circletofPersuasion) is a +3 to that and a few other things, and/or an item of +3 competence to UMD would just be 900 gp.

Even just 12 ranks and a +3 competence item is success on a 5 or more.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Death's Ruin (CC) and Penetrating Strike (DS) have already been mentioned. There's also Lightbringer Penetrating Strike (EtCR) which can explicitly be retrained even if your DM doesn't allow normal retraining rules.

You can also take the Martial Rogue variant (UA) and focus on tripping, invest into Iaiutsu Focus (OA), take a dip into Bard and optimize Inspire Courage/DFI, multiclass into Swordsage and invest into concentration for Diamond Mind strikes or multiclass into Unseen Seer and use spells.

[Segev]

Oh, and it's been mentioned by somebody else, but I think overlooked: for undead, in particular, there is a Weapon Augment Crystal in the Magic Item Compendium which will let you sneak attack the undead. I believe it's called the "Truedeath Crystal."

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Theres no way he can reliably use a wand either, I suggested that to him. With a max of 12 in UMD he's failing that check over 50% of the time, and if there's anything I have learned, its that being forced to make failing checks consistently makes play LESS fun, not MORE.

Skill checks are one of the easiest things to optimize.

From the SRD
Skill bonus (competence) Bonus squared × 100 gp

That's 6,400 to never fail a DC 20 check with 12 ranks and no ther bonuses.


As DM you could allow the sometimes questionable MW tool for a +2 circumstance bonus for 50 gp. Then you only need a 3,600 gp +6 competence item.

You might also consider a free award or a custom item of the Magic Device Attunement feat which let's you freely use an item you've UMD'd once for 24 hours.

[Giddonihah]

Or instead of messing with custom magic item rules, get the Rogue a True death crystal :smalltongue:

3rd times a charm, it can be slotted onto a weapon and gives the weapon extra damage vs Undead and allows you to sneak attack/crit them. It is also within a 9th level characters budget.

[Psyren]

Wands have a DC of 20, so how is he failing more than half the time unless he dumped Cha like a rock? Skill Mastery(UMD) would let him always pass without rolling.

All Skill Mastery lets you do is take 10 despite distractions. It does not let you take 10 with skills that forbid you from taking 10 in all cases (like UMD.)

You would need the Artificer's special skill mastery which specifically works with UMD.

[Iron Angel]

I did not know about the Truedeath crystal. I think he will like that very much. He's probably aching to get some payback on those undead bastards :smalltongue:

[Segev]

I did not know about the Truedeath crystal. I think he will like that very much. He's probably aching to get some payback on those undead bastards :smalltongue:

Might I suggest, then, that he find it as the one non-corroded piece on a now-worthless formerly-magic shortsword thrust through the back of a desiccated skeleton?

[Jeff the Green]

Beware the fact that the truedeath crystal costs 10,000 GP. It's power isn't out of line for what you might give a rogue in an undead-heavy campaign (especially if there are higher-tiered PCs), but you may want to make it worth less so they don't consider selling it.

[Eldariel]

Beware the fact that the truedeath crystal costs 10,000 GP. It's power isn't out of line for what you might give a rogue in an undead-heavy campaign (especially if there are higher-tiered PCs), but you may want to make it worth less so they don't consider selling it.

Another reason I prefer buffing UMD and using Wands; 750gp a pop is far, far more affordable and it has the side effect of enabling the use of other Wands too.

12 ranks + 3 Competence + 2 Masterwork Tool = +17, which is already 90% success rate with 10 Charisma and no custom magic items.

[Hurnn]

Another reason I prefer buffing UMD and using Wands; 750gp a pop is far, far more affordable and it has the side effect of enabling the use of other Wands too.

12 ranks + 3 Competence + 2 Masterwork Tool = +17, which is already 90% success rate with 10 Charisma and no custom magic items.

I know it's rew legal but what exactly is a umd Mw tool??

[Zanos]

I know it's rew legal but what exactly is a umd Mw tool??
Very comfy wand grips.

[Eldariel]

I know it's rew legal but what exactly is a umd Mw tool??

Frankly you're fine even without one but some kind of a tome on magic item activation or some amulet that helps you fake it/concentrate or whatever.

[Chester]

A weapon with Undead Bane?

[Jeff the Green]

I know it's rew legal but what exactly is a umd Mw tool??

I go with Octarine lenses.

[sideswipe]

1d4/1d6 damage tends to be pretty poor, especially since most undead have decent damage reduction.

huh? a skelly? better get my light hammer out.
huh? a zombie? better get my dagger out.

damage reduction huh? nope :smallsmile:
and all that time i was practicing sneak attacking walls... they thought i was mad! (pen strike)....

and if your high enough level that the damage reductions are not easy to overcome, then you are probably dealing serious damage anyway.

[Segev]

I know it's rew legal but what exactly is a umd Mw tool??

A wand grip with common fingering positions and phonetic aids for activation words
A fancy-looking prop spellbook that makes wands think you're a real wizard
A pouch full of special pixie dust that "primes" the wand to be already trailing magic so its activation gestures can be seen more easily
A set of placards that have common somatic gestures, including tracks over which you can trace the wand's tip as a cheat sheet
A wand grip with adjustable internal nubs that put pressure on it right where an experienced spellcaster's grip might place his fingers
A tuning fork which resonates with the arcane field around the wand to help you pitch your command words just right

[Bronk]

I know it's rew legal but what exactly is a umd Mw tool??

I've always used either a confidence boosting wizard hat or a bracelet filled with motivational sayings and helpful hints.

You also might want to look at the "Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike" ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, p206). It differs slightly from the CC penetrating strike because it specifically calls out the damage it deals as still being sneak attack damage while the other does not, which allows extra damage from Craven to apply.

[Psyren]

A wand grip with common fingering positions and phonetic aids for activation words
A fancy-looking prop spellbook that makes wands think you're a real wizard
A pouch full of special pixie dust that "primes" the wand to be already trailing magic so its activation gestures can be seen more easily
A set of placards that have common somatic gestures, including tracks over which you can trace the wand's tip as a cheat sheet
A wand grip with adjustable internal nubs that put pressure on it right where an experienced spellcaster's grip might place his fingers
A tuning fork which resonates with the arcane field around the wand to help you pitch your command words just right

The cheat sheet followed by the wand grip would be my choices.

[Eldariel]

I've always used either a confidence boosting wizard hat or a bracelet filled with motivational sayings and helpful hints.

You also might want to look at the "Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike" ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, p206). It differs slightly from the CC penetrating strike because it specifically calls out the damage it deals as still being sneak attack damage while the other does not, which allows extra damage from Craven to apply.

It is, however, limited to Undead-only which might not be a problem here but does definitely make it less generally applicable (imagine the campaign were to take flight to the elemental planes next, for instance). But yeah, it's definitely also worth considering though I find Grave Strike makes it mostly obsolete. I rather prefer Penetrating Strike since it helps with the ones you can't solve with 750gp Wands.

[Bronk]

It is, however, limited to Undead-only which might not be a problem here but does definitely make it less generally applicable (imagine the campaign were to take flight to the elemental planes next, for instance).

True... It's a literal interpretation, and the sneak attack call out might not come into play since Iron Angel is the DM.

[Zanos]

huh? a skelly? better get my light hammer out.
huh? a zombie? better get my dagger out.

damage reduction huh? nope :smallsmile:
and all that time i was practicing sneak attacking walls... they thought i was mad! (pen strike)....

and if your high enough level that the damage reductions are not easy to overcome, then you are probably dealing serious damage anyway.
A rogue without SA dice isn't dealing enough damage to overcome DR by brute force. If you can't get SA damage in there are much better things for a rogue to do than plonk at a sack of hitpoints for minor damage.

[Vorandril]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html

This. This for the skills talk. :3

[VoxRationis]

I go with Octarine lenses.

Isn't octarine an opaque metal?

[sideswipe]

A rogue without SA dice isn't dealing enough damage to overcome DR by brute force. If you can't get SA damage in there are much better things for a rogue to do than plonk at a sack of hitpoints for minor damage.

at low levels you use the weapon that gets past damage reduction and use pen strike. or just attack. a 1hd skelly can be taken out in one swing if lucky or 2 usually. if you have pen strike you add a bit of damage to that.

from say level 8 onwards. with your magic weapon, pen strike, and other tricks you would probably have ( and at least a least true undeath for 1d6 extra against undead) you will be doing 20-30 damage, with all but the extreme toughest having DR of about 10. so with two weapon fighting (still the best way for a rogue to deal damage) and getting 2-4 attacks your still looking at at about 40-50 damage after a full round action at 4 attacks after DR is applied.

and this isnt even optimised fully. its just a standard build.

[Urpriest]

at low levels you use the weapon that gets past damage reduction and use pen strike. or just attack. a 1hd skelly can be taken out in one swing if lucky or 2 usually. if you have pen strike you add a bit of damage to that.

from say level 8 onwards. with your magic weapon, pen strike, and other tricks you would probably have ( and at least a least true undeath for 1d6 extra against undead) you will be doing 20-30 damage, with all but the extreme toughest having DR of about 10. so with two weapon fighting (still the best way for a rogue to deal damage) and getting 2-4 attacks your still looking at at about 40-50 damage after a full round action at 4 attacks after DR is applied.

and this isnt even optimised fully. its just a standard build.

Yes, but if you're using penetrating strike, you're not discussing the scenario you were responding to, so the point is moot.