Pathfinder Gun Rules Changes Things How?

[Ninjadeadbeard]

So, I was perusing the PFD20 site when I came across the rules for gun combat (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/combat/firearms.html). In the article, it states that, "Advanced guns can substantially change the assumptions of your game world, in the same way that they changed the face of warfare in the real world".

I may be looking to get into Pathfinder DMing, but I would very much like to use the Advanced Firearms presented here. How exactly does the inclusion of Adv Firearms alter a typical setting? I am looking both for Mechanical considerations as well as those concerning how a fantasy world is affected.

Assume that Guns are Everywhere (Simple weapons, 10% of full price).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Glancing over the rules... they wouldn't. Even the cheapest pistols are incredibly expensive; for something like a musket, you'd be better off arming your troops with low-level wands. Between the sheer monetary cost, the feat investment, and the chance of jamming or exploding? They'd be way out of the reach of common soldiers.

[Jeraa]

Advanced firearm attack are resolved as touch attacks within 5 range increments. That makes armor useless (including magical armor, though any special abilities on the armor would still function normally).
Advanced firearms deal more damage (but do have a lower range) than bows.
Advanced firearms deal the same damage as crossbows (also with a lower range), but are faster to reload.

A single shotgun-wielding commoner firing scattershot can take out multiple armored warriors with a single shot. (-2 on the attack rolls, 1d8 damage in a 30' cone vs an average of 4 hp, and ignoring armor)

But it really depends on how common guns are in your setting. With the "Guns Everywhere" rules, firearms are simple weapons, and have their prices reduced to 10% of what is listed. That makes it easier to arm all of your peasants with firearms capable of shooting through the plate armor of knights.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Glancing over the rules... they wouldn't. Even the cheapest pistols are incredibly expensive; for something like a musket, you'd be better off arming your troops with low-level wands. Between the sheer monetary cost, the feat investment, and the chance of jamming or exploding? They'd be way out of the reach of common soldiers.


But it really depends on how common guns are in your setting. With the "Guns Everywhere" rules, firearms are simple weapons, and have their prices reduced to 10% of what is listed. That makes it easier to arm all of your peasants with firearms capable of shooting through the plate armor of knights.

Yeah, assume that Guns Everywhere is in effect. I meant to add that.

[Serafina]

The main mechanical impact is that armor (and shields and natural armor) becomes much less useful.
Early firearms can already target Touch-AC, but only within short ranges - at most 80 feet with a magical Musket of Distance, and often less than that.
By comparison, a Revolver can already target Touch-AC at up to 100 feet, and with a Rifle of Distance it goes up to 800 feet.
Heavier armor becomes thus much less useful, and plenty of monsters will be way easier to hit.

Ranged combat will become more desirable - melee will still have its place, after all lots of opponents won't use armor/shields anymore so hitting them with a melee attack won't be much harder than hitting them with a firearm. Still, melee will often only be a backup option.

Advanced Firearms are also easier to use than early firearms. If you use Commonplace Guns (where they become the norm) all guns can be used with Martial Weapon Proficiency, so most combat classes can use them.
But more importantly, they are much easier to reload - if you use a Revolver, you only need to reload after 2-3 rounds (depending on your amount of attacks) as a move action, while you need to reload a early firearm after every shot and need at least Rapid Reload to reduce it to a move action (and a class feature to boot to do that with a two-handed firearm). So you save on feats there to boot.
You also don't have to worry about misfires that much. Not only will it happen about half as often as with early firearms, but your firearm can't explode from a misfire. So there is less need for misfire-reducing class features and magic properties.


Basically, if you have Early Firearms they will pretty much only be used by Gunslingers (or people who dip into Gunslinger) because every other class would not be able to start with a Firearm (they are expensive), would have to take a feat to supply its ammuniton (unless it can be bought regulary), another feat to use them in the first place, another feat for reliable reloading and more feats to deal with misfires.
After going through all that trouble, you are either operating as a normal ranged fighter with little advantages over bows, or you try to get close to the enemy so that you can target touch-AC. In other words, you are a counterable threat - a fighter can get into melee and slice you up, since you are not too far away.

If you have Advanded Firearms instead, you will have to go through much less trouble and get a ranged weapon that is better than any other in the game, with the only good counter being high non-armor AC or starting close to you, since you'll just blow right through any enemy fighters armor.

[Serafina]

Oh, and with Guns everywhere, the effect will only get more pronounced - since now everyone can afford a gun AND use it (okay, everyone but Druids and Monks). Okay, at first level you actually have to take a early firearm since you can't afford anything else, but the base assumption will still be "everyone has one".

[Jeraa]

With advanced firearms everywhere, you basically go from medieval-style worlds to something closer to the Wild West. With orcs, dragons, and magic thrown in.

[Slipperychicken]

[In guns everywhere = 10% 90% price discount, firearms are simple weapons, advanced firearms default load time is a Move action, swing against Touch AC within first 5 range increments]

-Anyone with simple weapon proficiency who can throw down 500gp for a rifle can shoot people's Touch AC from 400ft away, or regular AC from 800ft. Swinging for a respectable 1d10 damage/x4 critical.

-Misfires aren't a big deal, since advanced firearms don't explode.
-This makes the Gun Scavenger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/gun-scavenger-gunslinger-archetype) much more attractive, especially if you use the "Change Out" deed to give your Rifle the scatter property(take a -2 to hit to make your attacks hit an 80ft cone?! That could let you kill whole encounters with a single full attack! Maybe you could make your allies hide behind Tower Shields while you nuke the battlefield).

-1 level in Gunslinger gets you Dex to damage.

-1 feat for Rapid Reload lets you reload as a free action, letting you full-attack forever with an advanced firearm. Pepperbox rifles will be mostly unused by PCs.


In summary: Yeah, for anyone who can afford them, guns are the best thing since sliced bread. Besides cost issues, there's very little reason to use anything else. Maybe if you happen to start encounters pretty close to your opponents, a backup melee weapon would be nice (bayonets (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/bayonet) are nice too, 2H melee weapons with 1d6/x2, and take a Move action to attach or remove, which can be underwhelming for a dedicated melee guy).

[Ninjadeadbeard]

-1 feat for Rapid Reload lets you reload as a free action, letting you full-attack forever with an advanced firearm. Pepperbox rifles will be mostly unused by PCs.


In summary: Yeah, for anyone who can afford them, guns are the best thing since sliced bread. Besides cost issues, there's very little reason to use anything else. Maybe if you happen to start encounters pretty close to your opponents, a backup melee weapon would be nice (bayonets (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/bayonet) are nice too, 2H melee weapons with 1d6/x2, and take a Move action to attach or remove, which can be underwhelming for a dedicated melee guy).

I mostly agree with what you said, but reading the RAW for Rapid Reload I don't think you can get any firearm down to a free action.

I guess any setting with advanced firearms would need to implement the Defensive Bonus Alternate Rules then? What classes just stop working with Adv Firearms? I can see Barbarians, Heavy Fighters and Paladins taking a dive just on melee drying up. Do their other abilites let them be viable in such a game?

[torrasque666]

[In guns everywhere = 10% price discount, firearms are simple weapons, advanced firearms default load time is a Move action, swing against Touch AC within first 5 range increments]


Actually, 90% discount. You buy them at 10%, not 10% off.



-Anyone with simple weapon proficiency who can throw down 500gp for a rifle can shoot people's Touch AC from 400ft away, or regular AC from 800ft. Swinging for a respectable 1d10 damage/x4 critical.

-Misfires aren't a big deal, since advanced firearms don't explode.
-This makes the Gun Scavenger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/gun-scavenger-gunslinger-archetype) much more attractive, especially if you use the "Change Out" deed to give your Rifle the scatter property(take a -2 to hit to make your attacks hit an 80ft cone?! That could let you kill whole encounters with a single full attack! Maybe you could make your allies hide behind Tower Shields while you nuke the battlefield).

-1 level in Gunslinger gets you Dex to damage.

-1 feat for Rapid Reload lets you reload as a free action, letting you full-attack forever with an advanced firearm. Pepperbox rifles will be mostly unused by PCs.

Hell, you don't even need a feat. Use metal cartridges. They function as alchemical cartridges for advanced firearms, thus reducing reload another step to "free action"



In summary: Yeah, for anyone who can afford them, guns are the best thing since sliced bread. Besides cost issues, there's very little reason to use anything else. Maybe if you happen to start encounters pretty close to your opponents, a backup melee weapon would be nice (bayonets (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/bayonet) are nice too, 2H melee weapons with 1d6/x2, and take a Move action to attach or remove, which can be underwhelming for a dedicated melee guy).

Pretty much sums it up. Yeah.

[Anlashok]

Some hyperbole here. Guns everywhere does make it the standard weapon for peasantry and you'll probably be fighting lots of riflemen, but it doesn't instantaneously invalidate other classes like some people here suggest. Guns, even advanced guns, aren't a particularly high op trick. The biggest thing you're gonna do from a world perspective is make gun slinging NPCs more common and for the players make gun use by nongunslinger/archetype characters a reasonable option.

[Slipperychicken]

I guess any setting with advanced firearms would need to implement the Defensive Bonus Alternate Rules then? What classes just stop working with Adv Firearms? I can see Barbarians, Heavy Fighters and Paladins taking a dive just on melee drying up. Do their other abilites let them be viable in such a game?

Paladin: Paladins do surprisingly well. Vanilla Smite works just fine on ranged attacks: archer Paladins are already some of the biggest damage-dealers in the game. Now the forces of darkness better wish they have a good Touch AC, because a gun-paladin can stomp all over them. Holy Gun (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/holy-gun) is a trap (because vanilla smite already works with guns and lets you full attack, while "smiting shot" is a straight-up nerf). The archetype you want on a Paladin is Divine Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/divine-hunter): it gives you Precise Shot at level 1, and doesn't trade out anything critical.

[And before you ask, you don't need a grit pool to be good with advanced firearms, unless you really want the Quick Clear deed so you aren't stuck with a -2 whenever you roll a 1. In which case you can dip Gunslinger or take Amateur Gunslinger or some Archetype which isn't total garbage]

Fighter: Fighters actually picks up somewhat because of the Trench Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/trench-fighter) archetype letting you score dex-to-damage with three levels, which stacks with the Gunslinger's dex-to-damage. Additionally, ranged characters always love bonus feats (as well as bonus tohit and damage from Weapon Training, and the Weapon Focus/Specialization line).

Barbarian: It's been a while since I've seen their rage powers, but an Urban Barbarian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/urban-barbarian) with a Gunslinger dip could be workable. As for rage powers, Reckless Abandon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/reckless-abandon-ex) could be nice to counter the penalties from the Deadly Aim feat. The Surprise Accuracy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/surprise-accuracy-ex) rage power tree also looks like it could be workable for a gun-using, rage-cycling Barbarian. Aside from that theoretical combo, it's not looking too good for the Barbarian. Still, a vanilla Barbarian can be deadly enough if he closes to melee.

Cavalier: The Luring Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/luring-cavalier) archetype could work with guns for the same reasons Paladins do. Problem is that the Cavalier doesn't get bonus feats in the early-game, so a fighter and/or gunslinger dip may be in order. If your starting later and have enough geats, Cavalier smite is more flexible than Paladin smite, but cavaliers don't get fancy spellcasting or Lay on Hands. Order bonuses can be nice for firearm-use, too.

Rangers: Rangers like guns. They're already well-suited to ranged attacks and get bonus feats which help ranged combat.

Rogue: Swinging against Touch AC is very nice for a 3/4 BAB class, but Rogues and guns aren't exactly a match made in heaven. Guns can theoretically synergize with sneak attack, but only by jumping through multiple hoops with a comically absurd number of feats (Hint: It involves Gun-Twirling, Greater Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-feint-combat---final), and possibly Moonlight Stalker Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/moonlight-stalker-feint-combat)). I would be surprised if one could get all those feats before high-levels. Let me know if you want me to write out a whole process to get reliable gun sneak-attacks. A synthesist-dip may be helpful to get concealment all the time and hide while firing.

Monk: Guns might be Simple weapons, but Monks don't get simple weapon proficiency, and their class features don't work off guns. I don't think any of their class features synergize with firearms. Deflecting arrows and using Snake Style could be a neat trick. The sky is still blue, the grass is still green, and Monks still suck.


Some hyperbole here. Guns everywhere does make it the standard weapon for peasantry and you'll probably be fighting lots of riflemen, but it doesn't instantaneously invalidate other classes like some people here suggest. Guns, even advanced guns, aren't a particularly high op trick. The biggest thing you're gonna do from a world perspective is make gun slinging NPCs more common and for the players make gun use by nongunslinger/archetype characters a reasonable option.


Indeed, guns aren't the only way to operate in a "Guns Everywhere" world. Most encounters in D&D and 3.X still start within charge-range, so melee can still be viable (it would be a different story if encounters started with each side separated by vast open distances much larger than most groups battle-mats can represent), so classes which aren't very good with guns can still be viable. Besides, someone has to take advantage of AoOs from reloading in melee.