Pathfinder Glitterdust disorients?

[loodwig]

A subject of debate has arisen in my group as to the effects of glitterdust, and more importantly what happens after you fail a saving throw.

From where I stand, my thoughts are that you get the blinded condition, 50% of your attacks auto-fail as a result (assuming you don't have the feat blindsense), you get a -2 to your AC, you are considered flat footed (confirming additional AC penalties possibly), and you have a -2 to your attacks. You also fail all sight based perception checks and get a -4 temporary penalty to your perception (which fades in time, GM discretion as to how long "time" is, but typically some time after combat ends).

By contrast, a player in my group says that affected players cannot perceive enemies and distinguish friend from foe, and attack squares at random (d8 for direction). I don't want to simply ridicule my player, who has more experience with pathfinder and being a GM than I do, but I cannot find any source material that supports his claim. I've placed the onus on him to support his claim, and used GM fiat for the time being. However, I'd like to see if any of you can support his position, and better still can cite the material that can support his position.

If what he says is true, I'd say glitterdust is an incredibly powerful spell... one I should specifically protect against for balance purposes (like make treating blind en masse standard equipment for every opponent I create). After all, this makes the status effect of blind vastly superior to that of confuse, as you now have a 1/16 chance of hitting your opponent (versus the 1/4 for confuse) and a significantly higher chance of hitting your ally, though you won't accidentally target yourself with blind.

[Psyren]

Glitterdust isn't that bad in PF. Yeah, being blind sucks, but many monsters have strong will saves (if they're not outright immune to it, like oozes and plants) and the radius is pretty small. In addition, affected creatures get a new will save every round to throw it off. The spell itself lasts only rounds/lvl, which at the level you get it means it might wear off before the fight ends even if they fail all their saves.

As far as the "attacking allies" thing - creatures can still operate off memory and stumble (at half-speed) towards where they remembered an enemy was, as well as avoiding allied squares in the same way. Of course, if the battlefield or its participants shift around the blinded creature might be in trouble, but talking is also a free action so they are free to call out to their allies before swinging if they realize someone is standing in front of them.

Speaking of "realizing someone is there" there's actually a few ways to do this. Just like groping about for an invisible attacker or using your hearing to locate one, you can employ the same tactics (with the penalties noted above) to find a target while you're blinded.

So to sum up, glitterdust is strong but not a game-ending spell that must be countered at all costs. Simply spread your enemies out a bit, and maybe have more of them if your PCs aren't being challenged.

[Jeff the Green]

While, yes, you can't tell where your allies and enemies are positioned by sight, you don't have to randomly attack the squares around you. You can use logic, another party member's directions, or other senses (like, y'know, hearing) to make reasonable guesses about where your enemies are. (If your players have a hard time not meta gaming, you could always blindfold them so they don't know where allies and enemies are either.) Your player is bizarrely wrong.

[loodwig]

Ah, that makes sense. So with sufficient shuffling, I'd have to be properly confused as to where my opponent was. I'm blind, not blinded and then placed on a tilt-a-whirl for 5 minutes.

And I had been forgetting the new save each round (a super big failure on my part, admittedly).

[Iwasforger03]

You said fairly new. I know experienced players who forget minor parts of spells or abilities, even ones they are familiar with, if they don't specifically read the relevant passages. If we can forgive them, you get an easy pass, DM or not. and Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

[elonin]

Adding a rule to Glitterdust or blindness about attacking creatures randomly is a houserule for sure.

[Raven777]

Yeah, your original interpretation is a verbatim application of the Blinded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Blinded) condition, and therefore spot on. Nothing in the rules says a blinded character is disoriented in any way. A blinded character can still distinguish between allies and foes, move towards targets and avoid obstacles.

EDIT : Unless you make a blinded character roll a Perception check to locate stuff (which is entirely the DM's prerogative) or consider moving or attacking "an activity that relies on vision" (which is probably not intended by the rules, since then the enemy concealment penalties would be unnecessary). Then it'll auto fail and the character should probably start stumbling.

EDIT 2 : But as I'm found of doing, "when in doubt, check Baldur's Gate", and in Baldur's Gate the only effect of Blindness were the condition's numerical penalties.

[Psyren]

Blinded creatures do stumble - that's represented by being restricted to half-speed movement and being at risk of falling prone for full speed.

You don't lose your memory though - if you were next to an enemy you would probably still expect them to be standing there and swing. And if they move away, the Perception DC to hear it is going to be very low at that distance, even with the -4 penalty (which seems to reflect distraction or disorientation of some kind.)

[elonin]

Blinded characters still have their other senses. Also the rules don't randomize what square you are attacking.