Why is Sabine even alive?

[daggaz]

Ok, I dont mean to nitpick, I LOVE this comic (and the obvious answer to my question is: because the plot demands it), but for the sake of argument...

Wouldn't you expect that an evil outsider with red eyes, devils horn and tail, and leathery batwings would be put to death immediately, rather than earn the right to a trial? I mean, according to the definitions, she is basically made of pure concentrated evil. There really is nothing to discuss as to her intentions etc... Seems to me they would smite her as soon as they knew what she was.

[bluish_wolf]

Ok, I dont mean to nitpick, I LOVE this comic (and the obvious answer to my question is: because the plot demands it), but for the sake of argument...

Wouldn't you expect that an evil outsider with red eyes, devils horn and tail, and leathery batwings would be put to death immediately, rather than earn the right to a trial? I mean, according to the definitions, she is basically made of pure concentrated evil. There really is nothing to discuss as to her intentions etc... Seems to me they would smite her as soon as they knew what she was.

Believe it or not, "being evil" isn't a crime.

[daggaz]

Maybe not for a human, but being from (and essentially, part of) a plane that is dedicated to the destruction and/or enslavement of the Prime plane and all of its races would seem like enough of an argument that she is enough of a threat to warrant immediate destruction. Its not about justice here, its about a war for existence.

[BardicLasher]

I gotta go with daggaz on this one. There's no reason a paladin should be letting Sabine live.

[bluish_wolf]

This is D&D we are talking about here. People openly go about calling themselves thieves, for crying out loud. I doubt you would be arrested just for being a demon or devil.

[Querzis]

I gotta go with daggaz on this one. There's no reason a paladin should be letting Sabine live.

Look, a really good guy is gonna have trouble with killing anything, even a demon or a devil. She is in prison and not likely to get out, if you are really a good guy, you have no reason to kill her.

Beside it would be really stupid to kill her. In prison she is harmless but if we kill her, she is gonna be back in 2 days...maybe 3.

[Snake-Aes]

This is D&D we are talking about here. People openly go about calling themselves thieves, for crying out loud. I doubt you would be arrested just for being a demon or devil.
Actually, I would do that. I suppose the only reason for Sabine to be JAILED is because Elan asked Shojo to JAIL them until they can deal with the situation themselves.

[Xiander]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html

That's why!

[Demented]

Yeah, well, maybe she's just a particularly firey angel. Y'never know. =P

She is being held without trial... and she'd need to be accused of a crime in order to be put on trial. I don't see why she couldn't be put on trial for attempted assassination of the OOTS. We could just leave Belkar out of the trial.

Then again, now that Shojo's dead and we know that Belkar has been running around free, I don't see why that's a problem either. Of course, the trial will have to be delayed until after Azure City escapes a good conquering anyway....

[daggaz]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html

That's why!


well, at least she would be sent back to her plane of existance, and it can't be *that* easy to return to Prime after being smited, or we would be overrun by all kinds of nasty things, yeah?

[ABChristine]

for the same reason that shojo should have received a fair trial, regardless of knowing the guilt or innocense. these particular paladins believe in going through the motions, at the very least. she gets a fair trial, because that is justice. and that is law.

[bluish_wolf]

well, at least she would be sent back to her plane of existance, and it can't be *that* easy to return to Prime after being smited, or we would be overrun by all kinds of nasty things, yeah?

If the Netherworld were actually interested in conquering the Prime Material Plane instead of incessantly fighting itself, then, yeah, it would be constantly overrun by all kinds of nasty things.

[daggaz]

for the same reason that shojo should have received a fair trial, regardless of knowing the guilt or innocense. these particular paladins believe in going through the motions, at the very least. she gets a fair trial, because that is justice. and that is law.


Yeah, but paladins are dedicated to good before law. Their very spells and abilities are directly derived from the plane of Good. And the plane of Good is at constant, eternal war with the other two nasty planes (what is it, evil and chaos?). So by that rational, it would be the paladin's holy duty to vanquish such a direct enemy immediately.

[Demented]

Well, if you really want to win that war, then, you'd imprison all those demons on the material plane where they can't fight. Right?

[Korias]

Their are a few reasons.
One: Sabine is, through most of my understanding, a Succubus or An Enryie. These demons have upwards of 10 HD, if I recall correctly, making them hard to smite to any great effect.
Two: They arent Azure Cities problemb. The LG's Objective was to get back at the OoTS, not at AC. Thus, they are bieng held until the OOTS can do their work.
Three: The LG is an Evil Opposite. Ergo, Sabine would only be killed off if Her Opposite would be killed off, to even the score. Her opposite being Haley, I dont see this happening.
Four: Sabine represents a vital part of the plot structure here. She is nale's Girlfriend, Miko's Tempter, LG's Second in command, and general major pester to the OOTS. A Recurring villan like this cant be killed off easily.
Five: We are not sure of the intent of the twelve gods here. One of them (Lets say, Tiger) Is the god of the afterlife/lower planes. Ergo, she is one of the tiger's servants. You dot go killing the gods' servants, do you?
Six: Who would want to kill something of such pure beauty? (Dont quote "No Second Troy". I know that some cases of beauty lead to destruction.) (See Trojan War)

[TreesOfDeath]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html

That's why!

I declare this thread over

[monsterinshadow]

i wonder what happens when you cast an atonement spell on a demon. do they become a celestial?

[Renegade Paladin]

Atonement doesn't work unless the subject is willing. I suppose it would work if she wanted to become good, but I don't see that happening.

[Electric_Monkey]

Given the presence of Zz'dtri (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html), it's possible there could be enough Fall-from Grace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape_Torment) clones running about to establish legal precedent for trying fiends.

[Scorpina]

Characters in OotS have a certain amount of metagame knowledge. Thus, they know that Sabine (and other fiends) have the possibility of redemption. Thus, Paladins are only marginally more likely to kill her than they are Nale or Thog.

[TARINunit9]

They have no case against her, and they don't even want to try her for any crimes (remember the gift certificate?)

[Roderick_BR]

They are busy.
And as Haley said the first time. Killing her wouldn't do much.
She'd probably reform at the lower levels, and she'd be back a few days later to free Nate from his cell

[Flabbicus]

Three: The LG is an Evil Opposite. Ergo, Sabine would only be killed off if Her Opposite would be killed off, to even the score. Her opposite being Haley, I dont see this happening.

Belkar killed his evil kobold clone without any trouble. I doubt it works that way.

[Renegade Paladin]

If a fiend is killed on the Material Plane when actually physically here (that is to say, called or came of their own power rather than summoned) they do in fact die. I doubt Sabine is the product of a summon monster spell. In fact, I know she isn't; she'd vanish inside the antimagic field if she was. So if killed, she would in fact be permanently dead.

[Luvlein]

ummm no, Fiendish Codex I says you can perma-kill fiends only on their respective home plane. A fiend killed on another plane reforms, though it may lose some status and power.

[Frosty]

It takes them 99 years to reform themselves I believe.

[The Extinguisher]

But for a demon? Thats like, a day for them. If even that.

[Korias]

Belkar killed his evil kobold clone without any trouble. I doubt it works that way.

Note that Belkar also is Evil.
And that the Kobold was also replaced. And killed again.
But then the prophecy stated that their may be a chance that the Oracle could die. Or Belkar's new opposite is Miko.
So if Sabine was to be replaced, then It could be feasable.

[FujinAkari]

If a fiend is killed on the Material Plane when actually physically here (that is to say, called or came of their own power rather than summoned) they do in fact die. I doubt Sabine is the product of a summon monster spell. In fact, I know she isn't; she'd vanish inside the antimagic field if she was. So if killed, she would in fact be permanently dead.

This is incorrect. A fiend that is destroyed returns immediately to its home plane. This is even discussed here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html)

Ultimately, the issue seems to be that Rich treats outsiders differently than D&D. In D&D a banished demon can't get back to the Prime Material (as almost no demons can planeshift, and those that do are either unintellegent, designed to kill other demons, or way too important to be on the Prime in the first place.)

Sabine, a succubus CAN planeshift. This might be something only she can do, or it might be that the angels and demons in OOTS can freely travel to the Prime Material, but neither side is willing to start a war there, and thus they are just trying to shift the balance of power. We don't know enough to say.

What we DO know is that Sabine will simply return to the Lower Planes, and that she can planeshift.

Oh, and that "doesn't reform for X years" is, as far as I can tell, a rule that R.A. Salvatore made up, I've never seen it in print. Salvatore actually had a Balor in the Prime Material (where one shouldn't have been... these guys are the Generals of Hell!) and needed a reason he couldn't come back, so he invented one :).

[archon_huskie]

All of you are quite arrogant to assume to know the workings of The Giant's story world.

Always remember, he can refute any rule you come up with by saying "I'm not using that rule." or "I don't follow dnd 3.5 exactly." or my favorite "I'm writing a story not an example of how to play DND."

[FujinAkari]

All of you are quite arrogant to assume to know the workings of The Giant's story world.


Ultimately, the issue seems to be that Rich treats outsiders differently than D&D.

Yeah... that totally was accurate. :smallmad:

Regardless, even without your post being completely contradicted by the one right before it, your point still isn't valid, because it reduces -everything- to "Rich did it!" While I am not persoanally opposed to casting Rich in the role of the Wizard, it does sort of defeat any possibility of actual discussion, as nothing can ever be assumed.

While I agree with you, demons are obviously acting on some specific rules, I disagree that trying to figure them out is arrogance.

[Daedalus73]

While I am not persoanally opposed to casting Rich in the role of the Wizard, it does sort of defeat any possibility of actual discussion, as nothing can ever be assumed.

And what a shame it would be if the forums were no longer filled with pointless arguments and debates over the minutae of D&D rules and how they may or may not apply to Rich's webcomic.

No, really. :annoyed: