Discovery! "Oblivion Arrow Duplication" in 3.5!

[Getsugaru]

While building an archer character, I stumbled on splitting. Splitting states that "any arrow or bolt fired from a splitting weapon splits into two missiles in mid flight. Both missiles are identical, sharing the nonsplitting properties of the original missile; for example, a +1 splitting arrow splits into two +1 arrows in mid-flight. Both missiles strike the same target. Make a separate attack roll for each missile using the same attack bonus."

Later on, while working on the same build, I ran into the MIC Raptor Arrows. They are wonderful with that returning variant of theirs, but then I read the next line, which states that "...unlike most ammunition, raptor arrows are not destroyed when used."

Some of you can probably see where this is going.

So now I have a bow that takes one arrow and splits it into two identical copies, and an arrow that is not destroyed on use. Here's a combat round between two characters to show how amazing this is:

Character A has Splitting Bow and Raptor arrows, CG.
Character B is a fighter with fighter stuff, LE.
Character A fires a Raptor arrow from their Splitting Bow; attack rolls of 20 and 16. One Raptor arrow hits, the other misses. End turn.
Character B Moves to cover. End turn.
New round.
At start of Character A's turn, two Raptor arrows restring themselves on the Splitting Bow.

...See the rub? Congratulations, you now can make Raptor Arrows for free, and all it took was a magic bow. :smallamused:

[Snowbluff]

Lest, you could have asked me. I figured this out years ago. :smalltongue:

One of my old clerics archer would have piles of these things around his feet each fight.

[searlefm]

why do i see this set up and a monk copying these monster (http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/14594217/images/1302813487120.jpg) it may be legal but no sane DM will allow it.
tho how long will it continue to load these into the bow before it becomes a problem?

[Irk]

I think it works, but it was not too well received when I posted something similar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-296727.html) a while ago.

[Getsugaru]

Yes, well that's because you intended to use it to break the table. I just want to fill enemies with pins. :smallwink:

[Irk]

Yes, well that's because you intended to use it to break the table. I just want to fill enemies with pins. :smallwink:
Fair enough.:smalltongue:

[HunterOfJello]

You should probably turn it into an Item Familiar first. That or just make it an intelligent item that has a useful power on it.

[Rijan_Sai]

I think it works, but it was not too well received when I posted something similar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-296727.html) a while ago.

Re: This...
After reading to the bottom, and the "general agreement" reached, even if the DM rules that only the original arrow returns, what is to stop you from collecting the copies after the battle is over?

Just wondering...

[HighWater]

Re: This...
After reading to the bottom, and the "general agreement" reached, even if the DM rules that only the original arrow returns, what is to stop you from collecting the copies after the battle is over?

Just wondering...


An arrow that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

If a DM is going to ignore the returning property of a "copied" raptor arrow, he will likely also ignore the "not destroyed when used" property on the copy. Especially if he wants to prevent "I sell my 10,000 raptor arrows and retire" from happening. The selling-scheme would be much more gamebreaking than an exponential growth in arrows fired over a few rounds, since most combats don't last longer than a few rounds anyways... If damage is the concern, the DM could definitely hand out penalties for this wiseguy-version of multishot, y'know, without the feat. Just because they restring themselves doesn't mean you can suddenly aim properly with more than your normal amount of arrows...

As for my personal verdict: yes this is definitely why D&D is not run by a computer, but by a human. Rule0 should stop this multiplication from happening. A strictly-by-RAW-and-only-by-RAW DM would probably need to allow it, unless prepared to twist his interpretation into some pretty shady-db territory (see Irk's thread for examples). A common sense "yeah, that's not gonna happen" seems perfectly reasonable to me...

[atemu1234]

If a DM is going to ignore the returning property of a "copied" raptor arrow, he will likely also ignore the "not destroyed when used" property on the copy. Especially if he wants to prevent "I sell my 10,000 raptor arrows and retire" from happening. The selling-scheme would be much more gamebreaking than an exponential growth in arrows fired over a few rounds, since most combats don't last longer than a few rounds anyways... If damage is the concern, the DM could definitely hand out penalties for this wiseguy-version of multishot, y'know, without the feat. Just because they restring themselves doesn't mean you can suddenly aim properly with more than your normal amount of arrows...

As for my personal verdict: yes this is definitely why D&D is not run by a computer, but by a human. Rule0 should stop this multiplication from happening. A strictly-by-RAW-and-only-by-RAW DM would probably need to allow it, unless prepared to twist his interpretation into some pretty shady-db territory (see Irk's thread for examples). A common sense "yeah, that's not gonna happen" seems perfectly reasonable to me...

I'd say that each of the arrows is a size smaller upon returning; once they reach a certain point, then, they're absolutely useless.

[Alent]

I'd say that each of the arrows is a size smaller upon returning; once they reach a certain point, then, they're absolutely useless.

That ruling just creates a spellstoring hypodermic needleRaptor Arrow factory.

The easiest fix is just to say "you never end up with more arrows than you start with, somehow".

[HighWater]

I'd say that each of the arrows is a size smaller upon returning; once they reach a certain point, then, they're absolutely useless.
Except that the enhancement bonus keeps the damage at "1" even when the base weapon damage falls to -. Without damagereducion that's going to suck.

And this "solution" creates a whole new problem: you now can't use a splitting bow with a raptor arrow without effectively destroying the arrow bit by bit. That's not a fix, but a new problem. It's also more work than saying the "extra" arrow is just a temporary copy that fades from existence as soon as it has hit (or missed) the target, regardless of other arrow properties.

[Segev]

By the RAW, this works. Even if you're not trying to break the WBL table with it, you now can make sure a single raptor arrow is shortly going to be enough arrows to fill a quiver. Then you really don't CARE about the returning property; just pick them up after the fight.

[Segev]

Now, here's another question for the class:

Does the Splitting property duplicate effects ON the arrows? Obviously, it makes a +1 flaming shock frost arrow into two of them, duplicating all elemental tags on each. But would it duplicate an arrow enchanted with Greater Magic Weapon by a 12th level wizard so that both arrows have the +3 enhancement bonus?

More importantly, it obviously will duplicate a +1 spell storing arrow so that there are now two +1 spell storing arrows flying at the target. But will it duplicate the Combust spell that is stored in it, so there are now two +1 spell storing arrows with Combust in them flying at the target?

What if the Spell Storing property isn't on the arrows, but the bow? If the bow is storing a Combust spell, will both arrows created by the splitting property carry said Combust spell?

[Nightraiderx]

oooh splitting arrow shenanigans!
There are fun ranger/assassin spells you can use from Champions of Ruin.
Swift action transform arrow into a special kind of arrow, ranging from consistent damage/brilliant energy/strength damage/split into more arrows
So your first shot from that can really make some shenanigans.

[Snowbluff]

Arrowsplit. I pointed it out to him.:smalltongue:

[weckar]

Is this an ammo enhancement or a bow enhancement? I couldn't find it myself and your post implies either.

[Nightraiderx]

These are spells of the ranger/assassin kind best way to get them is through wands, shouldn't be too expensive to get charges.
Also I would make your bow elvencraft so that you can throw more of those types of wands onto your bow for versatility.

Shadow Arrow is a nasty spell. no save 1d6 str damage that is doubled thanks to the splitting enchantment.

[Rijan_Sai]

Now, here's another question for the class:

Does the Splitting property duplicate effects ON the arrows? Obviously, it makes a +1 flaming shock frost arrow into two of them, duplicating all elemental tags on each. But would it duplicate an arrow enchanted with Greater Magic Weapon by a 12th level wizard so that both arrows have the +3 enhancement bonus?

More importantly, it obviously will duplicate a +1 spell storing arrow so that there are now two +1 spell storing arrows flying at the target. But will it duplicate the Combust spell that is stored in it, so there are now two +1 spell storing arrows with Combust in them flying at the target?

What if the Spell Storing property isn't on the arrows, but the bow? If the bow is storing a Combust spell, will both arrows created by the splitting property carry said Combust spell?

From the OP:
"any arrow or bolt fired from a splitting weapon splits into two missiles in mid flight. Both missiles are identical, sharing the nonsplitting properties of the original missile; for example, a +1 splitting arrow splits into two +1 arrows in mid-flight. Both missiles strike the same target. Make a separate attack roll for each missile using the same attack bonus."
So, I would say yes! However, both would lose the enhacement bonus from GMW at the same time, and the Spell Storing would use it's effect from both on hit. (If one or both missed, I don't think it would use up the spell...but I'm not 100% sure on those rules.)
...Actually, re-reading the Spell Storing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#spellStoring) property, if it's on the bow, it reads as though you may have to choose to use it when you fire the arrow, which would mean that if the arrow missed, it would still use up the spell...

[Pinkie Pyro]

The original raptor arrow you fired is destroyed by the split, so neither arrow would return to you, but you can always get them back after combat, and you can easily make a nigh-infinite starting amount.

[nedz]

This is covered in dysfunctional rules thread 2 page 48 — Curmudgeon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15217757&postcount=1436)disagreed with your analysis BTW

[Snowbluff]

Naw, the arrows are still intact. Hitting a foe is their use. Doing so is using them. He's probably are right about them not returning, though. Either way, you have a crap ton of these.

[Getsugaru]

Naw, the arrows are still intact. Hitting a foe is their use. Doing so is using them. He's probably are right about them not returning, though. Either way, you have a crap ton of these.

And, really, what kind of archer doesn't collect the arrows they can reuse? Anyone who's never played Elder Scrolls before!

[weckar]

One that uses Shot on the Run? :smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

From the OP:
"any arrow or bolt fired from a splitting weapon splits into two missiles in mid flight. Both missiles are identical, sharing the nonsplitting properties of the original missile; for example, a +1 splitting arrow splits into two +1 arrows in mid-flight. Both missiles strike the same target. Make a separate attack roll for each missile using the same attack bonus."
So, I would say yes! However, both would lose the enhacement bonus from GMW at the same time, and the Spell Storing would use it's effect from both on hit. (If one or both missed, I don't think it would use up the spell...but I'm not 100% sure on those rules.)
...Actually, re-reading the Spell Storing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#spellStoring) property, if it's on the bow, it reads as though you may have to choose to use it when you fire the arrow, which would mean that if the arrow missed, it would still use up the spell...

I'm not sure I follow. Let's say I have a Spell Storing arrow with a 10d8 Combust in it, and I fire it from an Arrowsplitting bow. What happens in each of the following cases?

One arrow misses, but the other hits
Both arrows miss
Both arrows hit

In particular, how much fire damage does the target take?

[nedz]

I'm not sure I follow. Let's say I have a Spell Storing arrow with a 10d8 Combust in it, and I fire it from an Arrowsplitting bow. What happens in each of the following cases?

One arrow misses, but the other hits
Both arrows miss
Both arrows hit

In particular, how much fire damage does the target take?

Good question.
Splitting splits the arrows, but not the stored spell thus RAW is silent on this question.
I think you may have another dysfunctional rule here.

[Segev]

Good question.
Splitting splits the arrows, but not the stored spell thus RAW is silent on this question.
I think you may have another dysfunctional rule here.

I technically CAN argue it either way. It says it duplicates "all properties." So the question boils down to whether "what is stored in the arrow's 'spell storing slot'" is a "property" of the arrow or not.

[nedz]

I technically CAN argue it either way. It says it duplicates "all properties." So the question boils down to whether "what is stored in the arrow's 'spell storing slot'" is a "property" of the arrow or not.

Exactly — it's a dysfunction.

[zanetheinsane]

For me it's not the splitting that bothers me. What bothers me is why the ability wants you to roll two attacks for what is basically a volley attack. I mean, you only shot the bow one time with one arrow (originally). Why two rolls? :smallmad:

[Skevvix]

For me it's not the splitting that bothers me. What bothers me is why the ability wants you to roll two attacks for what is basically a volley attack. I mean, you only shot the bow one time with one arrow (originally). Why two rolls? :smallmad:

So Swift Hunters can be even better? :smalltongue: