From a balance perspective how about making spellcaster have 3 main mental stats?

[Ramza00]

Edit: I am not trying to balance the game and make everyone perfect and equal. I am asking if this in the direction of slightly more balanced, and asking for unforeseen consequences. The question is this an improvement, a wash, or is it now worse

I am just trying to tweak the game a bit, not fundamentally fix the game. Just a small rules tweak.

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From a balance perspective how about making spellcaster have 3 main mental stats?

All spellcasters use all 3 mental stats to cast spells.


Primary Stat (such as Int for Wizards) determines your Save DCs as well as whether you can cast that level of spells (thus you want a 19 or higher by level 17)
A high primary stat does not give you any bonus spells
The Second and Third mental stats (so Wis and Cha for wizards) give you bonus spells. Each mental stat gives its own pool. Thus if you have an 18 in Cha and Wis you get 2 bonus 1st level, 2 2nd level, 2 3rd level, 2 4th level.
Wizards do not get a bonus spell for specializing instead they get a benefit related to their specialization that is equivalent to a familiar substitution for free, or they get a free wizard bonus feat, or you get improved familiar for free
Focused Specialists give you 2 extra spells of each level related to your specialization, but you lose 1 generalist slot of each level. You still get your specialization bonus such as a free familiar substitution effect.
Clerics and Druids hit dice is decreased to d6, Cloistered Clerics and Archivist hit dice is decreased to d4.



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This makes all three mental stats relevant. It gives the user a choice between higher save dcs and more spells. You are also forced with the choice on how much con and dex do you want for you are sacrifice spell slots to get those stats. Every stat is important for a wizard besides strength, every stat is important for a cleric, of course wild shape is still broken for a druid but the d6 and a little less con or less spells helps a little for a druid loses some of the survivability that wild shape gives.

Now of course a wizard can still choose awesome spells that have no save dcs (I am looking at you conjuration and transmutation) but that is up to the DM to balance and reduce the awesomeness of some of the spells.

[Ramza00]

Oh for math simplicity sake here are the levels where you gain 1 additional bonus spell of the highest level.

Int
12--- 1 additional 1st level
14--- 1 additional 2nd level
16--- 1 additional 3rd level
18--- 1 additional 4th level
20--- 1 additional 5th level, 2 additional 1st level,
22--- 1 additional 6th level, 2 additional 2nd level,
24--- 1 additional 7th level, 2 additional 3rd level,
26--- 1 additional 8th level, 2 additional 4th level,
28--- 1 additional 9th level, 2 additional 5th level, 3 additional 1st level
---- (this is probably the best break point)
30--- 1 additional 9th level, 2 additional 6th level, 3 additional 2nd level
32--- 1 additional 9th level, 2 additional 7th level, 3 additional 3rd level
34--- 1 additional 9th level, 2 additional 8th level, 3 additional 4th level
36--- 2 additional 9th level, 3 additional 5th level, 4 additional 1st level

[Jeff the Green]

Yeah, this changes very little. Maybe wizards have slightly lower Constitution as they put some points into Charisma and Wisdom, but past like level 2 they have plenty of spell slots anyway and the spells, which are the actual problem, are entirely unchanged.

[ryu]

Of course you realize that all this does is make the wizard use build options that render DEX and CON basically pointless to allow more stat pumping right? Hell many of the best options for what I'm talking about are already pretty common options.

[squiggit]

Doesn't really fix anything except maybe how offensive it feels to have a wizard with more dex and con than the fighter because the fighter needs to pump like, 8 different stats.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

It's an old idea, here's why these kinds of nerf are a bad idea.

Making casters MAD and making them worse at mindane combat willbe a huge hit to low to mid op builds and will make casters unplayable for new players.

Soon people may start popping in and giving you the mechanics behind them taking next to no penalty for dumping this or that stat and why hp, AC etc don't matter with X spell. You can of course respond by saying you would also ban or nerf X spell, but then Y spell, Z feat and @ Prc will be brought up. YOu could ban those as well, but soon your simple caster fix has grown to a novella sized binder of houserules.

If you want to balance casters one of the best solutions is making the Tier 3 list casters the standard full casters of your game. The great thing is that when built and run by less skilled or dedicated players these will actually perform better than Tier one classes would for them.

[Ramza00]

Of course you realize that all this does is make the wizard use build options that render DEX and CON basically pointless to allow more stat pumping right? Hell many of the best options for what I'm talking about are already pretty common options.

I do not see this as a downside but instead as a feature but yeah I get how other people will see this as a downside.

[Ramza00]

It's an old idea, here's why these kinds of nerf are a bad idea.

Making casters MAD and making them worse at mindane combat willbe a huge hit to low to mid op builds and will make casters unplayable for new players.

Soon people may start popping in and giving you the mechanics behind them taking next to no penalty for dumping this or that stat and why hp, AC etc don't matter with X spell. You can of course respond by saying you would also ban or nerf X spell, but then Y spell, Z feat and @ Prc will be brought up. YOu could ban those as well, but soon your simple caster fix has grown to a novella sized binder of houserules.

If you want to balance casters one of the best solutions is making the Tier 3 list casters the standard full casters of your game. The great thing is that when built and run by less skilled or dedicated players these will actually perform better than Tier one classes would for them.

I get what you are saying. And I appreciate the tier 3 casters, and they probably should not be affected by this. Hell you might want to go the opposite and allow the tier 3 specialist casters (that specializing in a type of magic such as damage, rogue/illusion/enchantment, necromancer) get all three mental stats to bonus spells. Almost always it is the versatility of the spell list that is the lacking thing, or the lack of amount an actions per the round, with these classes it is rarely the number of spells per day.

But with a generalist wizard or a cleric or a druid they have too many spells per day with only needing 1 mental stat. By making them a little more mad they will have 1 or 2 less spells per level and still be tough, or they can be more vulnerable and keep a similar many or even more spells per day.

[ryu]

I do not see this as a downside but instead as a feature but yeah I get how other people will see this as a downside.

No I don't just mean playing a normal wizard with less stats in dex and con. We're talking faerie mysteries initiate gray elven necropolitions with sure strike abuse and immediate actions teleport defenses if the group wasn't already doing that. Suddenly the wizard is more durable than the fighter, has plenty of extra spells, and literally doesn't even care about DEX and CON anymore.

[Ramza00]

Where is this faerie mysteries initiate feat, I look in my issue of dragon 319 and I can't find it. Is iton pages 56 to 61? I seem to be missing them from my magazine :smallwink:

Handwave *These are not the feats you are looking for*

[Jeff the Green]

No I don't just mean playing a normal wizard with less stats in dex and con. We're talking faerie mysteries initiate gray elven necropolitions with sure strike abuse and immediate actions teleport defenses if the group wasn't already doing that. Suddenly the wizard is more durable than the fighter, has plenty of extra spells, and literally doesn't even care about DEX and CON anymore.

You don't even really need Faerie Mysteries Initiate. Going necropolitan is, on average, equivalent to a Constitution of 18 for d4 HD classes. And since you'd be putting points into Charisma anyway, you don't have to worry about your Concentration suffering. You could quite happily be an 8 8 – 18 8 18 Wizard with no problems at all.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

But with a generalist wizard or a cleric or a druid they have too many spells per day with only needing 1 mental stat. By making them a little more mad they will have 1 or 2 less spells per level and still be tough, or they can be more vulnerable and keep a similar many or even more spells per day.

This could end up working alright, however you could also just end up with casters either putting the minimum into Primary to get their max level spells (which won't be that much 13 sats +2 item at leve 5, +4 at level 7) and avoid saving throw dependent spells or not invest much in bonus spells and be more focused on ending combats in one spell. This strategy will be harder for you to plan around as DM and less fun to play.

If you end up going further, say by reducing the spells per day granted by levels as well, you'll eventually reach a tiping point where the classic Tier 1 casters are theoretically powerful but barring shenanigans they're unplayble tower wizards.

If Tier 1 casters are a problem in your game to the point that you're considering overhauls to the system, I highly recommend just getting rid of them. Make Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, a buffed Warmage and Healer, and Pathfinder Summoner the most powerful casters in your game. Oh and Wildshape Ranger, it isn't a full list caster,but it takes over a caster's theme.

[Ramza00]

If Tier 1 casters are a problem in your game to the point that you're considering overhauls to the system, I highly recommend just getting rid of them. Make Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, a buffed Warmage and Healer, and Pathfinder Summoner the most powerful casters in your game. Oh and Wildshape Ranger, it isn't a full list caster,but it takes over a caster's theme.

This isn't trying to be a major change that dramatically balances D&D 3.5 (which I believe is unbalanceable, but still fun). It is just trying to make a small balance change, which at the same time makes a lot more sense with flavor in my head. Why do wizards only use Intelligence for magic and not will and charisma as well? Why do Clerics only dedicated themselves with a cause to get magic, you are telling me greater knowledge of their god (intelligence) and the will to wield's the god's power (charisma) won't have an affect on their magic.

It is a slight change in what I think is the right direction, makes the core casters a little more mad (which other classes are mad by their very nature), and it works from a flavor perspective. I see that as win, win, win.

So it makes it harder for beginners, that i agree but I do not think a beginner should be playing a wizard or a cleric with bad spell selection. They should be playing something like a beguiler, or a spontaneous cleric/favored soul with someone helping them in the spell selection.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Soon people may start popping in and giving you the mechanics behind them taking next to no penalty for dumping this or that stat and why hp, AC etc don't matter with X spell. You can of course respond by saying you would also ban or nerf X spell, but then Y spell, Z feat and @ Prc will be brought up. You could ban those as well, but soon your simple caster fix has grown to a novella sized binder of houserules.



Where is this faerie mysteries initiate feat, I look in my issue of dragon 319 and I can't find it. Is iton pages 56 to 61? I seem to be missing them from my magazine :smallwink:

Handwave *These are not the feats you are looking for*

I see you've already started the first chapter of your novel.

Yes, banning FMI isn't really unusual especially since it's DRAGON material, but the list will get longer if the thread continues and the poster you were responding to was actually talking about Necropolitan. PF actually has a decent fix were going Undead reduces you're point buy by an amount that is the same as forcing you to buy a 12 Con. It's a decent rule, but the binder is growing.

[gooddragon1]

Quite simply: The good spells don't allow saves and the smart spell caster does not "think" with their spell slots.

Forcecage: No save, no sr.
500 explosive runes: Better have evasion and amazing SR.

Other combinations like shrink item+telekinesis have been mentioned and still others I can't remember. Even a glitterdust spell that goes off against an most enemies is a save or lose. Same with a slow spell or fog cloud. Smart wizards don't need lots of spell slots or particularly high saving throws if they get cheesy.

It's the spells man.

[georgie_leech]

From a balance perspective, it does nothing to hamper the problems of the Tier 1 Casters late game and makes it more difficult for beginners to get a handle on how to play. From a thematic perspective, it's fine.

[Ramza00]

Quite simply: The good spells don't allow saves and the smart spell caster does not "think" with their spell slots.

Forcecage: No save, no sr.
500 explosive runes: Better have evasion and amazing SR.

Other combinations like shrink item+telekinesis have been mentioned and still others I can't remember. Even a glitterdust spell that goes off against an most enemies is a save or lose. Same with a slow spell or fog cloud. Smart wizards don't need lots of spell slots or particularly high saving throws if they get cheesy.

It's the spells man.

I agree that no save spells can be quite unbalanced. Telekinesis can get quite silly and I expect a DM to cap the damage once it goes past the practical to the theoretical.

This reduces the effectiveness of saves or loses you can have a few SoL with a higher DC or more with a lower DC.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Regarding your philosphical statements on casting; Yes, I totally get those. I actually had my own go at something like this way back in '06 that started with an overanalysis of the Potterverse. I didn't find labeling them as Warlocks as some did, since they seemed to be capable of learning lots of effects like Wizards. For awhile I ended up settling on them all being Ultimate Maguses but more flexible entry so they could start higher in on either side. I also decided that there was a hidden stat that determined how many levels of UM they were allowed to take before having to "retire" back to their base class.

This eventually lead me to a three stat casting system without going into exact tables it worked like this.

Intelligence-Maximum Level of spells, however this only covered literal Spells. A low Int caster could still cast a highly meta magicked spell out of a high level slot. It was also used for spell research and even to learn spells under conditions that would normally result in automatic sucecss.

Wisdom- Was used to resist Backlash.

Cha- Pure power, bonus spells, save DCs and it could also be used to try and force over level effects which increased the backlash.

I ultimatly scrapped it in favor of a system with caster classes that learned and prepared spells from a fixed list and were expected to eventually learn their entire list and had access to limited spontaneous casting. When I ran a similar game more recently I had the luxury of Tier 3 list casters (Warmage+Abjurations, DN, Beguiler, Summoner); only Warmage and DN were printed when I ran the first game and DN was new.

As for your stance on new players and tier 1 classes, I have to saw I vehemently disagree with the idea of having the class with the most potential power kept away from new players, especially when that class is iconic.

[Ramza00]

As for your stance on new players and tier 1 classes, I have to saw I vehemently disagree with the idea of having the class with the most potential power kept away from new players, especially when that class is iconic.
If they want to play it fine, that said I would recommend options to help them such as teleport as an immediate action combine with standard action summoning if they go wizard for example.

That said very rarely in the media do you find a d&d wizard or cleric. For example often you find divine spellcasters who are really favored souls, they are god's representative and they are gifted with power which they do not have to work for it just comes naturally. As for wizards often you see practioners of arcane magic in the media but often the flavor or style of magic is more similar to a warlock, sorcerer, or psion. If a book mage often it is not arcane arts but secrets of the divine which is more archivist.

[Psyren]

To summarize: this will penalize low-op players and make them less likely to have fun playing the game. High-op/experienced players will be largely unaffected, because they can simply focus on spells that do not allow a saving throw (e.g. summoning.). The net result is that the metagame will not change - the high-op players who want to play casters will still do so effectively, while the low-op ones will simply stop playing casters (and likely quit the game altogether, if they don't want to be mundanes.)

Bandaid fixes like this almost never work - the spells themselves are what need fixing. Unfortunately, this is a monumental task for a problem that doesn't actually matter much.

[Kudaku]

This is also a fix that heavily relies on people using a low PB. Ideally you want classes to perform reasonably well at both low and high point buys.

[georgie_leech]

This is also a fix that heavily relies on people using a low PB. Ideally you want classes to perform reasonably well at both low and high point buys.

*Glares in Monk's general direction*

[Curmudgeon]

Here's how I make spellcasters MAD. Primary casting stat is the one which requires a score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.

If your primary spellcasting stat is INT, your CHA determines bonus spells and WIS determines spell DCs.
If your primary spellcasting stat is CHA, your WIS determines bonus spells and INT determines spell DCs.
If your primary spellcasting stat is WIS, your INT determines bonus spells and CHA determines spell DCs.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

That said very rarely in the media do you find a d&d wizard or cleric.

This is not only true, but I almost made this argument myself when I made my point about only using Tier 3 casters. Wizard and Cleric are virtualy non-existent outside of fiction written to model D&D, usually the closest you'll get is casters that can do anything or anything within a sphere of influence.

Have you considered the feelings of girlfriend's trying the game for the first time after reading D&D branded fiction or greybeards?

[gooddragon1]

summoning

Cannot believe I forgot about this. Why worry about the fighter needing equipment when you can bring in something with no save that fights as well as monsters do in some cases. Polymorph it into something nasty for even more fun.

[Trasilor]

This does very little in balancing the casters v. non-casters. The chasm is just to vast to be fixed via making them MAD.

The only way to balance casters and non-casters is changing spells. Spells are what allow the massive versatility, and "I win" buttons.

Mostly this fix reduces the number of spells per day. Beyond level one (which to be honest, everybody is just a sword swing away from death), bonus spells become almost pointless.

[Ramza00]

I edited the top thread and put some stuff in bold for people were thinking I was trying to fix the game, instead of just tweaking the game just a little.

[Psyren]

I edited the top thread and put some stuff in bold for people were thinking I was trying to fix the game, instead of just tweaking the game just a little.

I answered this question - it's a wash for high-op groups and worse for low-op ones.

[Jeff the Green]

Here's how I make spellcasters MAD. Primary casting stat is the one which requires a score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.

If your primary spellcasting stat is INT, your CHA determines bonus spells and WIS determines spell DCs.
If your primary spellcasting stat is CHA, your WIS determines bonus spells and INT determines spell DCs.
If your primary spellcasting stat is WIS, your INT determines bonus spells and CHA determines spell DCs.


That's decent, but does have the odd effect of making Sorcerers care more about Intelligence than Wizards.

Were I making a Wizard under this system with 32 PB, I'd go Str 8 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 16, and a sorcerer would be Str 8 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 16 Cha 14

[Psyren]

That's decent, but does have the odd effect of making Sorcerers care more about Intelligence than Wizards.

Were I making a Wizard under this system with 32 PB, I'd go Str 8 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 16, and a sorcerer would be Str 8 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 16 Cha 14

If I were that same wizard, I would dump Wis for Dex and be a FS conjurer with a bunch of saveless spells like summons/solid fog.

[Jeff the Green]

If I were that same wizard, I would dump Wis for Dex and be a FS conjurer with a bunch of saveless spells like summons/solid fog.

Well, sure, that'd be more effective. I just find that style of play boring. (And in any case the point remains the same; the "primary stat" is of middling importance at best.)

[sideswipe]

the fighter needs to pump like, 8 different stats.

str
dex
con
int
wis
cha
app
......

what is the blank?

[Psyren]

str
dex
con
int
wis
cha
app
......

what is the blank?

AC?

(What's "app?")

[Kudaku]

The fighter's 8th attribute? Luck.

I'm guessing App is short for Appearance - it was an optional attribute originally used in AD&D that pops up occasionally. I think the book of erotic fantasy has something on it?

[Ramza00]

what is the blank?
Action economy converts those useless swift actions in core to cool abilities such as boost or using swift action items to make them more useful?

Such as a using a swift action to move and set up an attack, and using a full round action to full attack?