Power Level Loop?

[malonkey1]

I had a thought in another thread, pertaining to Gish PrCs, that I wanted to field to the optimization nerds at large. Say I'm a Psychic Warrior who wants to exceed 6th-level casting, sans-dip. Would I be able to do the following to ignore Power Level descriptions, or am I misreading the rules here?


Take Extra Spell (Complete Arcane) [to get Lesser Resoration on an Arcane caster's list, cites rule interpretation]


As a DM I wouldn't mind someone using the Feat to get a spell outside his class list, but I just don't see the RAW allowing it explicitly (contrary to Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge)).


Mild derail, I just realized something. You could conceivably use this to learn a power of a level 1 higher than you can cast. Psionics, see, count as Spell-Like abilities. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#psionics) Therefore, they can be used with the Heighten Spell-Like Ability Feat (Complete Arcane), bring the level of power you can manifest up by two levels, effectively. This means you can now manifest powers at (normal Maximum+2). You can then take Expanded Knowledge to learn a power of one less than your new effective maximum, Old Maximum + 2 - 1, or Old Maximum +1. Technically, if you could find a way to pump Manifest Level sufficiently to increase PP expenditure limits, you could use this in a loop, ignoring your class's maximum power level almost entirely ("Screw you, 6th-level powers!" shouts the Psychic Warrior).

The idea has been posed, take it and run with it, Playgrounders. Red is now the challenge color.

Is my reasoning sound? Could I get around level restrictions with this trick? More importantly, could I use it plus a pumped Manifester Level to break power levels completely?

[Aegis013]

I see a potential hole in your plan; if Manifester level doesn't count as Caster level for feats and whatnot, your Psychic Warrior won't qualify for Heighten Spell-like ability.

If that's ok'd, or you have Magic Mantle or something, you're still limited to 8th level powers known at best, since Heighten Spell-like ability caps at 9th level.

Still an interesting trick though. I'm not sure it would be a faster progression than Psion though, assuming you're not using something like stinkiest cheese uses of Dark Chaos Shuffle (like Heroics -> DCFS or Otyugh Hole -> DCFS for bundles of additional feats).

[Psyren]

This unfortunately doesn't work the way you think. The only "psionics" that count as SLAs are Creatures with "Psionics" entries (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/overview.htm#creaturesWithPsionicsEntries) in the SLA section of their stat block. These "psionics" are treated as spell-like abilities, but it does not apply to the more general term psionics that refers to psionic powers.

It's another one of D&D's syntactical ambiguities, like the words "level" or "effect."

[Feint's End]

What Psyren said. This refers to psionic creatures and their "psionic" abilities before the Psionic handbooks were released and not actually to psionics.
Power are powers and there are also powerlike abilities which are similar to slas but not the same.

[Segev]

Actually, I'm fairly sure the XPH explicitly states that psionic powers are "spell-like abilities." I am AFB at the moment and can't find the reference, but I know I've seen that. This tends to lead to some really silly RAW discussions, including whether that means they "really" count as spell-like abilities in all ways or not.

[malonkey1]

Well, according to Wizards, In the core D&D game, psionic powers are a kind of spell-like ability. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060613a)

[Immabozo]

I see a totally different hole. I know of no way to get around the PP cap at ML for any single manifestation. And I know of only 1 way to get manifestor levels outside gaining levels. And that is Psionic Death Knell, and that is questionable at best. I know of no items to increase ML, only Torc of Power Preservation to make manifestations cheaper by 1 PP.

And then there is the EXTREMELY limited PP pool that psy warriors have

[Psyren]

I see a totally different hole. I know of no way to get around the PP cap at ML for any single manifestation. And I know of only 1 way to get manifestor levels outside gaining levels. And that is Psionic Death Knell, and that is questionable at best. I know of no items to increase ML, only Torc of Power Preservation to make manifestations cheaper by 1 PP.

Raising ML is actually easy. Transparency extends to items so things like Orange Ioun Stone and Bead of Karma will work. In addition there are abilities like Overchannel and a few class features.


Well, according to Wizards, In the core D&D game, psionic powers are a kind of spell-like ability. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060613a)

"Even in a psionic campaign, it's helpful to think of psionic powers as something that works much like a spell-like ability" is hardly the same as "the two terms are interchangeable."

[Renen]

I see a totally different hole. I know of no way to get around the PP cap at ML for any single manifestation. And I know of only 1 way to get manifestor levels outside gaining levels. And that is Psionic Death Knell, and that is questionable at best. I know of no items to increase ML, only Torc of Power Preservation to make manifestations cheaper by 1 PP.

And then there is the EXTREMELY limited PP pool that psy warriors have

Yeh. Like psyren said, you can really easily raise the amount of PP u invest.
wild surge, imbedded shard, earth power, midnight augmentation, Practiced Manifester (Practiced spellcaster trait under transparency... maybe?)

[Psyren]

Yeh. Like psyren said, you can really easily raise the amount of PP u invest.
wild surge, imbedded shard, earth power, midnight augmentation, Practiced Manifester (Practiced spellcaster trait under transparency... maybe?)

Transparency does not extend to feats, so Practiced Spellcaster will not work.

[Renen]

Transparency does not extend to feats, so Practiced Spellcaster will not work.

Sorry i herp-derp'd.

its actually the Spellgifted Trait i meant

[Immabozo]

Raising ML is actually easy. Transparency extends to items so things like Orange Ioun Stone and Bead of Karma will work. In addition there are abilities like Overchannel and a few class features.

I forgot about overchannel and wild surge. But I didn't know transparency extended to items. Here I was thinking lack of ML increasing items was a balancing factor. FML.


Transparency does not extend to feats, so Practiced Spellcaster will not work.

there is, however, Practiced Manifestor.

[Psyren]

there is, however, Practiced Manifestor.

I know - he mentioned both of them :smalltongue:

[Immabozo]

I know - he mentioned both of them :smalltongue:

....lies, all lies...

[Rubik]

Transparency does not extend to feats, so Practiced Spellcaster will not work.It does with the Magic Mantle.

And yes, the loop will work if you've got the Magic Mantle, since psi-like abilities (including manifesting) count as spell-like abilities when the Magic Mantle is in play.

[malonkey1]

It does with the Magic Mantle.

And yes, the loop will work if you've got the Magic Mantle, since psi-like abilities (including manifesting) count as spell-like abilities when the Magic Mantle is in play.

So, take Mantled Warrior (Magic), then?

[Psyren]

It does with the Magic Mantle.

Without reopening that can of worms yet again, suffice to say that this interpretation is heavily dependent on the DM and I disagree with it.

[Rubik]

Without reopening that can of worms yet again, suffice to say that this interpretation is heavily dependent on the DM and I disagree with it.The Magic Mantle ability explicitly says, and I quote,

"you always treat magic and psionics as identical."

Tell me how treating psi-like abilities and spell-like abilities as different is treating them identically.

[Psyren]

The Magic Mantle ability explicitly says, and I quote,

"you always treat magic and psionics as identical."

Tell me how treating psi-like abilities and spell-like abilities as different is treating them identically.

Sigh...

It then goes on to say, and I quote, "Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems." It is clear they're referring just to regular garden variety transparency, in which case the mantle does nothing special.

[Immabozo]

Sigh...

It then goes on to say, and I quote, "Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems." It is clear they're referring just to regular garden variety transparency, in which case the mantle does nothing special.

I would like to propose not arguing with Psyren on psionics

[Aegis013]

Well, I suspect malonkey1 intended for this trick to be viewed as TO. I could be wrong on that presumption, but assuming that that is actually the case, I think having Magic Mantle fall into the interpretation that allows it to work in this particular instance is reasonable. Since, while the interpretation may not fly at the table, TO generally assumes a permissive DM.

Still though, it only allows a max of 8th level powers, and I don't see it being achievable much earlier than just straight Psion would get them anyway, so it doesn't seem to be all that powerful of a trick. Interesting, at least, just not that strong.

[malonkey1]

Well, I suspect malonkey1 intended for this trick to be viewed as TO. I could be wrong on that presumption, but assuming that that is actually the case, I think having Magic Mantle fall into the interpretation that allows it to work in this particular instance is reasonable. Since, while the interpretation may not fly at the table, TO generally assumes a permissive DM.

Still though, it only allows a max of 8th level powers, and I don't see it being achievable much earlier than just straight Psion would get them anyway, so it doesn't seem to be all that powerful of a trick. Interesting, at least, just not that strong.

Yeah, it's TO. But I think the level of power behind it depends on how well you can optimize Manifester level (and your PP reserve).

how would you guys maximize ML? And would there be a way to get power level 9?

[Rubik]

Sigh...

It then goes on to say, and I quote, "Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems." It is clear they're referring just to regular garden variety transparency, in which case the mantle does nothing special.Except "most campaigns" don't necessarily treat them in any manner. If most campaigns treat them as being fully the same, then the way it's written (they're treated identically) is entirely true.

What's the percentage of non-transparency to partial transparency to full transparency? Obviously you know, since you're saying that you do.

[Psyren]

What's the percentage of non-transparency to partial transparency to full transparency? Obviously you know, since you're saying that you do.

The transparency in the XPH, being the default, would logically be the "most" they are referring to since that is also the default for all published settings and you have to consciously choose to incorporate a variant (

But like I said, I'm not opening this can (despite having opened it) any further as I know neither of us will convince the other. I'll just put this on the list of things we can't talk about, right under the usefulness of Ardents and anything to do with Lycanthromancer. Shake hands?