Zinc Saucier XXVI: Back to Basics

[dysprosium]

Welcome one and all to the twenty sixth Zinc Saucier challenge, where Playgrounders come to test their skill in the art of beautiful and bizarre (and bizarrely beautiful) builds, summoning a savory dish of superb swordplay and sublime sorcery.

The challenge? To come up with a build that has the same abilities and feel as the Secret Ingredient WITHOUT actually using it!

For the twenty sixth challenge, we are going back to basics; from the Player's Handbook it's the Fighter

Our challengers will have about 2 weeks to build a complete build up to Effective Character Level 20 using a 32 point buy and all official WOTC D&D 3.5 materials (excluding Dragon Magazine, but including any WOTC online enhancements) with the abilities and feel of a Fighter without actually using any levels in it.

Entries must be submitted by Monday, 11:59pm GMT, 21 July, 2014. As usual, please submit your entries via private message to the chairman, so as not to influence the other sauciers.

Judges will then have until Monday, 11:59pm GMT, 4 August, 2014, to post scores for all dishes.

Contestants will be judged and awarded a score out of 5 in each of 4 categories;

* Innovation (Uniqueness in character concept, race, class, etc)
* Power (How powerful and versatile it is compared to the base class)
* Elegance (What can only be described as how well the build "flows", i.e not using lots of 1-2lv dips, sacrificing flavour for power or using flaws)
* Ingredient (How well the build captures the abilities and feel of the base class)

Presentation would be best in the style of how the iron chef does their presentations, however any style is allowed so long as it is clear on how the build was made.

Recommended style:NAME OF ENTRY


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



Please do not post details of your build on the board before it is ready, so as not to spoil the surprise for others.

Sauciers may submit as many builds as they want but please don't use Leadership, as we don't want to overfeed the judges.

Previous challenges;
Soulknife (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225187)
Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229736)
Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233749)
Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239294)
Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243627)
Warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247169)
Paladin * (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252932)
Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256004)
Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259654)
Ninja * (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263278)
Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265347)
True Necromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276267)
Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280212)
Whisperknife (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285337)
Epic Infiltrator * (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289233)
Master of Vipers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295287)
Ranger * (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298478)
Flayerspawn Psychic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16076729#post16076729)
Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16448992#post16448992)
Walker in the Waste (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322436)
Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16879574#post16879574)
Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333648)
Duskblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=339182)
Psibond Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346900)
Argent Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=353923)


* Classes marked with an asterisk have had their original posts updated to reflect the final results.

This competition is inspired by the Playground Iron Chef Competitions and uses mostly identical rules.

Also it comes with double prize money. Why? Because we care!

Allez Sauciers!

[dysprosium]

A few administrative notes:

Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt and generic classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.

Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, may lose you points. Please note the following: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not.

Concerning Experience Requirements: Each build is allotted exactly 200,000 EXP. This is roughly 10,000 EXP more than necessary to get to 20th level. Please take note of this when planning your character for circumstances like LA Buyoff, Item Crafting, Magic Use, Multiclassing EXP Penalties, etc. Please note that this is a change from past rounds that dysprosium has been the Chairman. Let's try this out (Thank you to Kazudo, who I lifted this from :smallsmile:)

Definition of Power for scoring: Since this has been a point of contention, let me lay down this guideline. Since the goal is to emulate the Secret Ingredient, achieving much higher power than the Secret Ingredient is capable of is overkill and should be marked accordingly. Likewise if the build cannot match the power of the Secret Ingredient it should be marked accordingly. Individual judges can decide how much is too much for Power scoring, as each judge will have different tastes. The goal here is to prevent all entries being Wizard 20 because "they do it better."

What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes, but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Variant class features and variant character classes are espressly permitted. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while I am chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

How the heck do I even do this? Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to select a combination of race, templates, classes, alternate class features, prestige classes, skills, and feats, meld them into a single character that progresses from ECL 1 to ECL 20, that is as close as possible to the secret ingredient as possible in look, feel, class features. How you do it is up to you, I recommend you read previous competitions if you are interested in seeing how others have done it before you. Capture the essence!

A thread for your amusement/edification: Handy Tips for the Iron Chef in the Playground Noob (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287603)

[Muggins]

The thread title was a dead giveaway. We knew this day would come. :smallannoyed:

[Sian]

going to be interesting this one, looking devilishly simple but aren't ... going to thinker with it when i finish polishing off some of my other builds in the pipeline (which is clugging)

[Humble Master]

So simple it is difficult! Going to be hard to emulate a class that doesn't have any class feature and just gets a buttload of feats. I want to compete, but if I can't come up with anything I'll judge. Just need to figure out my judging rubric for this one. It is very different.

[relytdan]

interesting choice.

[WhamBamSam]

So, are we emulating the out of the box Fighter, or should we be trying to model Dungeon Crasher and Zhentarhim Soldier too?

[Ikeren]

I'll judge, and this time give full power scores for builds that are only slightly stronger than a best optimized fighter 20 (IE: low t3/high tier 4). Otherwise the rubric remains the same, and I'll copy-pasta it over when I get the chance.

You don't have to mimick a Dungeon Crasher Zhentarim Fighter, but mimicking fighter-only variants is probably worth bonus points.

[dysprosium]

So, are we emulating the out of the box Fighter, or should we be trying to model Dungeon Crasher and Zhentarhim Soldier too?

Originally I was thinking the out of the box Fighter (mostly because I had forgotten about the alternate class features). I would imagine that Sauciers could attempt to emulate either of those styles also. I would just make a note of that in my entry.


going to be interesting this one, looking devilishly simple but aren't


So simple it is difficult! Going to be hard to emulate a class that doesn't have any class feature and just gets a buttload of feats.

This is why I chose the Fighter. I figured with all of the "Fighter fixes" around this would be an interesting choice to run with. I can't wait to see what the Playground can deliver.

[Humble Master]

Originally I was thinking the out of the box Fighter (mostly because I had forgotten about the alternate class features). I would imagine that Sauciers could attempt to emulate either of those styles also. I would just make a note of that in my entry.Might be hard on the judges if they need to judge entries each trying to emulate a different fighter ACF.

Speaking of which, how should we score Ingredient? Like, just counting the number of bonus feats their build gets seems like a bad rubric. Does the build need to emulate all the various Fighter builds around there? (Zhentarhim Soldier, Dungeon Crasher, Ubercharger, Chain Tripper ect.) or does it just need to get the feel of the Fighter? What even is the "feel" of a class so undefined it's only class feature is access to hundreds of (cruddy) bonus feats? I bring this up mainly because it's an interesting judging question and I would like to hear everyone's thoughts.

[Muggins]

In a world with dragons and wizards, fighters are the common men. Not the sneaky, tricksy common men who call themselves rogues, but the soldiers and warriors. They are mundane, lacking magic or tricks or any true talent beyond the use of armour, shield and weapon. That is what I call a fighter.

Naturally, others can disagree. True, the reason we have multiple judges is because of such disagreement. There's nothing wrong with that. :smallsmile:

On a less idyllic note, I'm clearly not the only one wondering about alternative class features and the like.

[dysprosium]

You bring up a good point.

I imagine that everyone has a different image in their heads when someone says "Fighter." I would build upon that image and go from there. For me I am drawn to my first D&D character I ever had. He was a Fighter and it was first edition.

If I were going to judge [which by the way would only happen if no one else had before time ran out], I would look at not only how many bonus Fighter feats the build has but how many Fighter only feats (or equivalents) it had. I would also take into account the final BAB and final Fort save for the build. I could also look at the build's skill list and see how many Fighter skills it had. I would also probably judge what its specific role would be in combat and what options it had. I might also compare the build to my head canon I mentioned above.

It really is a wide open concept.

[Humble Master]

Judging criteria for the contest if I don't get around to finishing my build (which is likely).


Innovation: This is based on what I would expect to see based on the SI (In the Argent Fist round for instance I expected Swordsage, Crusader, Pious Templar ect.) and what the other contestants put forth. You also get points in this if you find some cool way to combine abilities (Like Wild Shaping into a monster that's a cloud of super-heated death gas and using Control Wind to blow yourself around at 300 MPH for flight).

Power: I judge this as power in relation to the SI. Basically, how powerful is you character compared to one that took 10 levels of the SI. If your character exceeds the power of the SI you'll get a higher score. A low score would be given to a character that is weaker than the SI. Power is also not limited to combat. An out of combat character that does really well at out of combat tasks is still powerful. For this competition I will be comparing your build to a Fighter 20

Elegence: Things that will get you a hit to Elegence are dips, flaws, anything that requires you spend GP to get it (Be it a service or magical items. The exception to the magic item rule is if your character can make the magical item themselves.), high levels of cheese or questionable rules interpretation, build errors and the open category of the build not "flowing" (basically a catch all term because Elegance is perhaps the category most open to interpretation). Finally, you will be penalized or rewarded based on how well the various class/feat choices work together in terms of flavor.

Ingredient: This score is based on two things. First, how many abilities of the SI you emulated. The emulations need not be perfect but they should achieve the same effect. The following abilities will be looked for:
Hit Dice, BaB, Saves, Skills: D10, full, 12 Fort, 2+Int per level by 20th level. You should probably aim for fewer skill points as the lack of skills is one of the big features (read, flaws) in the design of the Fighter.
Fighter Feats: Basically, try to get feats that suite the Fighter's style of play (whacking stuff). Power Attack, Improved Trip, Shock Trooper ect.
"I hit it, but like, really hard": The only "class feature" of the Fighter is getting a ton of feats. Due to there being hundreds of Fighter feats it would be impossible to judge someone and emulating even a fraction of those. Instead, I will be judging how well your build emulates the way in which the Fighter class operates. I apologize for the ambiguity of this section but it is difficult to judge a competition about a class with no real class features.
Second, how well you capture the feel of the SI. Aim for similar fluff as well as crunch.

[Ikeren]

Actually, due to some employment changes I'll just be watching this round. Sorry, and good luck.

[dysprosium]

No worries . I hope it was a change for the better Ikeren.

[relytdan]

not much activity

[DeAnno]

I might judge this. If I do, these are my provisional criteria:


Innovation: Based on scouting relatively more untamed optimization territory. This category is based more on how you achieve things than what you achieve; using very conventional elements like Shock Trooper Power Attack, Pouncebarian, or Thicket of Blades won't help you here. Unexpected races and classes are good, and new combos are very good. Good fluff gives bonuses here.

Power: How good are you at doing things a Fighter would be expected to do? You get credit for high damage totals, lockdowns, "defender" tricks, etc. You also get credit for the build dealing with things a Fighter would normally need items to deal with to do his job properly (Vision, Mobility, Defenses, that style of thing.) Because Fighter is a very in combat class, you won't get much credit for out of combat utility.

Builds will be judged in this category somewhat relative to the power of their individual building blocks. I will be more lenient to a mashup of T4 and T5 classes than to a Cleric/Crusader into RKV. Do not take this as a license to build a lousy build out of pure junk and expect it to score well though; if your building blocks are objectively worse than Fighter 20, you will instead be judged against the power of Fighter 20.

Elegance: Heavy cheddar is penalized in proportion to severity; using a Chaos Shuffle to obtain feats from Racial Weapon proficiencies would result in a penalty similar to that number of Flaws, for example. Flaws are -1, MC penalties are -0.1 per level sustained. 1 or 2 level dips in Base or Prestige classes are -0.5 each. Magical or unusual items *required* are penalized based on how common they are. Simple things found in the SRD are -0.5, most things elsewhere are -1, and customs are -2. Any abusive customs or otherwise broken items (ala Starmantle Cloak) may count as heavy cheddar instead and net more significant penalties as appropriate. Questionable rules interpretations will net penalties proportionate to their questionableness. Especially clean or attractive builds may net bonuses.

All numbers above may change if they end up being really unfeasible, but they should give you an idea of my opinions on things.

Use of Secret Ingredient: Large *Hit Points* (so a combination of HD and Con modifier), High BAB, and High Fort saves are good here. Also, lots of combat oriented Feats or combat oriented feat-like-abilities also will help. A big thing about Fighters is they can keep going all day, so abilities with limited numbers of uses here count for less and may even net penalties if they are critical for the build to function. Abilities with many Daily uses or encounter uses will be judged less harshly, but what we want is truly unlimited abilities. Other ways to keep on going without having to take rests (the anti-5-minute-workday) will help here. As an example, being Undead is helpful for not having to sleep, but hurtful because no con mod is pretty lousy hp for a fighter.


I encourage commentary on this rubric.

[Curmudgeon]

A few administrative notes:
...
Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.

I might judge this. If I do, these are my provisional criteria:
...
Elegance: Heavy cheddar hurts a ton here; things analogous to Loredrakes and Chaos Shuffles basically get you an automatic 1, and may even penalize other scores due to borderline legality.
...
I encourage commentary on this rubric.
Because a sane level of cheese is explicitly allowed, treating RAW-legal options as meriting a minimum score would seem to be at odds with the competition rules. If something's only "legal" if you look at the rules sideways and squint, your approach seems fine. You might want to make a distinction.

[DeAnno]

What would your opinion be of a Chaos Shuffling Loredrake? (not necessarily in the context of Fighter, but in general) Would an Elf Chaos Shuffling his proficiencies into two feats merit a 2 point deduction, similar to 2 flaws? Would you penalize use of the Loredrake template in a competition like this? A Starmantle Cloak with Evasion?

It is indeed a difficult and thorny question. Mainly, I feel it isn't fair to people being... for lack of a better word, reasonable, to leave things like that unpenalized. I personally feel that that level of game warping merits a much higher deduction than something like a 2 level dip in a Favored class, and there is only so much room on the scale to represent that.

I think game legal cheese should be treated in a just manner, but I am unsure of how to do so. I do think that penalties for it should be in the elegance category, though at a certain point if you call on Pauzuzu to become Pun-Pun your build is probably not very valid in general.

EDIT: Changed some of the language in Elegance to be less punitive for now.

[relytdan]

chairman- can you confirm my last couple Pm's please

[Humble Master]

The way I interprit the rule is that sane levels of cheese are allowed (won't effectively disqualify your build) but could still result in an Elegance penalty. What a sane level of cheese is probably varies judge to judge but I would that a build shouldn't be disqualified for anything but really ridiculous stuff (Tauric template abuse, creating a genesis plane that has Flowing Time 10,000,000 is also Timeless, pretty much anything that involves Ice Assassin, Omnificer Trick ect.) though it could still merit a penalty. Using Chaos shuffling to get two feats out of being an Elf won't get your build taken out of the competition but it will merit an Elegance penalty.

[AvatarVecna]

Greetings all! I first saw this thread last challenge and wasn't feeling up to the task. But now I want in, but I need to ask a few questions.

Firstly, from what I understand, Iron Chef allows two builds per competitor. Is this the same here, or is it only one?

Secondly, I assume that, for questions more specific to my build, I can PM the chairman for clarification?

[relytdan]

@AvatarVecna
Yes I believe it is 2 submitions like at IC, and Yes for specific questions you can PM the chairman

[AvatarVecna]

@AvatarVecna
Yes I believe it is 2 submitions like at IC, and Yes for specific questions you can PM the chairman

Thanks for the info!

[dysprosium]

It's good to be back!

I apologize for my extended absence. My family and I had to move sooner than expected and let me tell you that moving is a pain in the you know what.

I will get back to those that PMed me as soon as I get myself caught up.

[dysprosium]

Hello Sauciers!

I have three entries for this round. Still plenty of time to join them!

[relytdan]

well here's hoping for more than 3 entries

[AvatarVecna]

I've got a full build ready and formatted, just need to complete the other sections; since this is supposed to be anonymous, I'll avoid explaining exactly what that includes, so as not to show my hand. Let it suffice to say that it'll be close, but I should be able to finish by the deadline.

[Sian]

Not going to submit for this, since i just can't figure the best way to make the build even if i've figured out the level20 result both from a level and feat standpoint ... going to post the stub when its been revealed.

[Cowardly Griffo]

Just over 8 hours left, eh?

*cracks knuckles*

I think I can work with that.

Edit: Turns out I was wrong. ._.;
Oh well, maybe I'll get to it earlier next time.

[dysprosium]

Only a little late this time but it is time for the reveal!

Please refrain from posting until the all clear sign.

[dysprosium]

This Marine is no Gomer Pyle.



Chesty Puller

LN Draconic (RotD 74) Amphibious (S 135) Aquatic Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#aquaticElf) from Breland on south coast of Khorvaire (Eberron)

Ranger 6 / Battle Trickster 2 / Citadel Elite 4 / Doomlord 2 / Ranger +2 / Champion of Corellon Larethian 1 / Ranger +3

Breland, our Breland,
Land of freedom and bravery,
Forever will the Bear and Crown
Stand upon this land we love.
Breland, our Breland,
Realm of gold and wonders,
Always will we sing of thee
Across this land we love ...
—“The Song of Breland” (Breland’s national anthem) (FN 47)

Chesty Puller will fight on land, at sea, and in the air.
He is proud to claim the title of Brelish Fighting Marine.

Aquatic Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#aquaticElf):

DEX +2, INT -2
Medium Humanoid (elf, aquatic)
Superior low-light vision
Aquatic subtype
speed 30'
swim 40'
Favored class: Fighter
Amphibious inherited template (S 135):

Gain redundant aquatic subtype
Gain redundant Swim speed
Amphibious special quality adds normal air breathing
DEX -2
LA +0
Draconic inherited template (RotD 74):

Dragonblood subtype
NA +1
2 claw attacks, 1d3 each (Medium size)
STR +2, CON +2, CHA +2
+2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks and Spot checks
LA +1 (bought off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) @ class level 3 for 3,000 XP)
fly 30' (good) with Dragon Wings, Improved Dragon Wings, and Improved Flight

Abilities:
32 point buy -> after racial adjustments -> final scores @ level 20 w/ enhancements

STR: 14 -> 16 -> 26
DEX: 14 -> 14 -> 20
CON: 14 -> 16 -> 22
INT: 15 -> 13 -> 14
WIS: 14 -> 14 -> 14
CHA: 8 -> 10 -> 10
Ability increments in order:

+1 INT
+4 STR

AC 46 + Dodge
HP 220.5 (average)

Languages: Common, Elf, Draconic




Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Champion of the Wild (CC 50) Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm) 1
+1
+2
+2
+0
Diplomacy 2 (CC), Gather Information 2 (CC), Handle Animal 4, Jump 4, Knowledge (architecture & engineering) 2 (CC), Ride 4, Sense Motive 4 (Skilled City-Dweller (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) option)
Track (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#track)*, Dragon Wings (RotD 100)
Arcane Hunter (CM 32): favored enemy (arcanists), Voice of the City (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), bonus feat: Track


2nd
Ranger 2
+2
+3
+3
+0
Diplomacy 2½ (CC), Gather Information 2½ (CC), Handle Animal 5, Jump 5, Knowledge (architecture & engineering) 2½ (CC), Ride 5, Sense Motive 5
Rapid Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#rapidShot)FBF
combat style bonus feat: Rapid Shot


3rd
Ranger 3
+3
+3
+3
+1
Diplomacy 3 (CC), Gather Information 3 (CC), Handle Animal 6, Jump 6, Knowledge (architecture & engineering) 3 (CC), Ride 6, Sense Motive 6
Endurance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#endurance)*, Power Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack)FBF
bonus feat: Endurance


4th
Ranger 4
+4
+4
+4
+1
Handle Animal 7, Jump 7, Knowledge (architecture & engineering) 3½ (CC), Knowledge (religion) ½ (CC), Ride 7, Sense Motive 7; Extreme Leap trick (CS 86)
Point Blank Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#pointBlankShot)FBF
Champion of the Wild (CC 50) bonus feat: Point Blank Shot, Distracting Attack (PH2 55)


5th
Ranger 5
+5
+4
+4
+1
Handle Animal 7, Jump 8, Knowledge (architecture & engineering) 4 (CC), Knowledge (religion) 1 (CC), Ride 8, Sense Motive 8, Spot 1; Dismount Attack trick (CS 86)

favored enemy: undead


6th
Ranger 6
+6
+5
+5
+2
Knowledge (religion) 1½ (CC), Spot 8
ManyShot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#manyshot)FBF, Improved Dragon Wings (RotD 100)
combat style bonus feat: Manyshot


7th
Battle Trickster 1 (CS 28)
+7
+7
+5
+2
Balance 6

Bonus trick: Point it Out (CS 88)


8th
Battle Trickster 2
+8
+8
+5
+2
Tumble 6
Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#dodge)FBF, Improved Sunder (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedSunder)FBF*
Bonus feat: Dodge


9th
Citadel Elite 1 (SCoT 163)
+9
+8
+5
+4
Diplomacy 9
Improved Flight (RotW 151)
Citadel training, additional action points


10th
Citadel Elite 2
+10
+8
+5
+5
Gather Information 9
Mounted Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#mountedCombat)FBF
Bonus feat: Mounted Combat, combat sense (defense)


11th
Citadel Elite 3
+11
+9
+6
+5
Diplomacy 11, Sense Motive 11

Diplomatic protection, royal contact


12th
Citadel Elite 4
+12
+9
+6
+6
Bluff 5, Knowledge (religion) 2 (CC)
Flyby Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack), Weapon Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFocus)FBF (longsword), Improved Flyby Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedFlybyAttack)*
Bonus feat: Weapon Focus (longsword)


13th
Doomlord 1 (PH 47)
+13
+11
+6
+6
Knowledge (architecture & engineering) 8

Entropic blow 1/day, healing resistance


14th
Doomlord 2
+14
+12
+6
+6
Knowledge (architecture & engineering) 11, Spot 9
Improved Critical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCritical)FBF (longsword)
Bonus feat: Improved Critical (longsword), destructive expertise


15th
Ranger 7
+15
+12
+6
+6
Handle Animal 14, Spot 10
Extended Reach (SS 34)
Crowd-Walker (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)


16th
Ranger 8
+16
+13
+7
+6
Ride 14
Combat Expertise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise)FBF
CotW bonus feat: Combat Expertise, swift tracker


17th
Champion of Corellon Larethian 1 (RotW 113)
+17
+15
+7
+8
Jump 10, Spot 11
Mounted Archery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#mountedArchery)FBF
Bonus feat: Mounted Archery, Corellon’s blessing


18th
Ranger 9
+18
+15
+7
+9
Jump 18
Improved Buckler DefenseFBF (CW 100)
Evasion


19th
Ranger 10
+19
+16
+8
+9
Jump 19, Swim 5; Nimble Charge trick (CS 87)

favored enemy: constructs


20th
Ranger 11
+20
+16
+8
+9
Jump 23; Nimble Stand trick (CS 88), Twisted Charge trick (CS 90)
Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#preciseShot)FBF, Improved Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedPreciseShot)FBF
CotW bonus feat: Precise Shot, combat style bonus feat: Improved Precise Shot



* - Track is exchanged for Improved Sunder via the Dark Chaos Shuffle at level 8. This entails paying an NPC spellcaster to cast first Embrace the Dark Chaos (FC1 92) then Shun the Dark Chaos (FC1 95); that sequence exchanges one existing feat for another the character qualifies for. Repeat to exchange Endurance for Improved Flyby Attack, done at level 12.

Sources:
BoED = Book of Exalted Deeds
CC = Complete Champion
CM = Complete Mage
CoR = Champions of Ruin
CS = Complete Scoundrel
CW = Complete Warrior
D = Draconomicon
ECS = Eberron Campaign Setting
FC1 = Fiendish Codex I
FN = Five Nations
LoM = Lords of Madness
PH = Planar Handbook
PH2 = Player's Handbook II
MIC = Magic Item Compendium
RotD = Races of the Dragon
RotW = Races of the Wild
S = Stormwrack
SCoT = Sharn, City of Towers
SS = Savage Species

Magical Gear

Chesty's motto is "adapt, improvise, overcome". He'll pick up sticks off the ground and fight with clubs and improvised javelins if he has no better gear, or duke it out with his claws if he's deprived of even improvised weapons. Nonethless, I've decided to list out Chesty's full array of magical gear to illustrate what it takes to get the fighting job done.
Mithral breastplate +5 w/ mobility (MIC 13) = 40,200 gp
Mithral buckler +5 = 26,015 gp
+3 adamantine longsword = 21,015 gp
+3 splitting (CoR 42) composite longbow, +8 STR = 73,200 gp
+3 heavy flail 18,315 gp
+3 lance 18,310 gp
Aquatic Action armor augment crystal (greater) (MIC 25) 3,000 gp
Arrow Deflection shield augment crystal (greater) (MIC 25) 5,000 gp
Illumination weapon augment crystal (greater) (MIC 64) used on bow 1,000 gp
Life Drinking weapon augment crystal (greater) (MIC 64) 6,000 gp
Demolition weapon augment crystal (greater) (MIC 65) 6,000 gp
Truedeath weapon augment crystal (greater) (MIC 66) 10,000 gp
Gemstone of Fortification (D 83) + limited wish NPC spellcaster service = 37,410 gp
Ring of Solar Wings (BoED 127) 118,000 gp
Ring of the Darkhidden (MIC 122) +5 deflection (MIC 234) = 52,000 gp
Boots of Striding and Springing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofStridingandSpringing) 5,500 gp
Healing Belt (MIC 110) +6 STR (MIC 234) +6 CON (MIC 234) = 72,750 gp
Greatreach Bracers (MIC 108) +6 DEX (MIC 234) = 38,000 gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofNaturalArmor) 50,000 gp
Cloak of Resistance +5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cloakofResistance) 25,000 gp
Silthilar Flexible Spine (LoM 216) 91,000 gp
Spellcasting services for Dark Chaos Shuffle: 9,800 gp
727,515 gp spent from 760,000 gp level 20 character wealth
Chesty's view of magic is that it should simply make him better at a job he can already do. He can fight well on land; the Boots of Striding and Springing simply make him more maneuverable. He can fight underwater without magic, but the crystal of aquatic adaptation augments his natural abilities to let him cut through the water without hindrance. He can fight in the air with no magic, but the Ring of Solar Wings combines with his own wings for much greater (150') speed.

Chesty is proficient with all armor and with all shields including tower shields. He chooses to use a breastplate (normally medium armor, made light via mithral) and a buckler because that's the best option for battlefield maneuverability. Heavier armor would slow him down, and a bigger shield would either keep him from fighting two-handed or make him dependent on magic (animated shield). Chesty uses an adamantine longsword as his primary melee weapon. Magic makes it better, but even if that's dispelled the weapon is still a tough masterwork cutting machine. He's also got Improved Critical as a feat rather than relying on keen magic. Chesty mostly uses the longsword two-handed to get better Power Attack benefits, but it can also be used one-handed; it's a good choice for all-around fighting capabilities. His backup melee weapon is a heavy flail, which adds bludgeoning, tripping, and disarming capabilities. When mounted on his heavy warhorse he uses a lance for its improved damage on a charge. Whether on foot, on horseback, or in the air Chesty is proficient in archery, and uses a bow with the splitting (CoR 42) enhancement for double effect.

The magical bonuses in Chesty's weapons are built-in rather than temporary; while Chesty is grateful for assistance from friendly spellcasters to get his weapons further enhanced to +5, he's not going to rely on magical buffs merely to get his AB and AC into the fighting range. And he's certainly not going to let himself become ineffective should an enemy cast a targeted dispel vs. greater magic weapon. Weapons which start at +3 satisfy the minimum for greater weapon augment crystals. The greater demolition (MIC 65) and greater truedeath (MIC 66) crystals combine with Chesty's favored enemy choices and Improved Critical to let him strike decisively against those enemies. Arcanists get all the FE improvements (+6 total), as magic users represent the greatest threat. As Chesty sees it, favored enemy bonuses are just bane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#bane) weapon enhancements at a discount. :smallsmile:

Some magical capabilities are hard to do without, and Chesty is a realist. Evasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#rangerEvasion) is very useful. Having it as a class feature is money saved on a magic item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#evasion). 100% Fortification (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#fortification) is another battle essential, and rather than coupling it to armor (exposed and vulnerable) Chesty gets his in the form of a Gemstone of Heavy Fortification (D 83). Healing is a requirement, but Chesty has equipped himself to be somewhat self-sufficient in that regard. He has a greater weapon augment crystal of life drinking (MIC 64), good for 50 HP restored/day, and a Healing Belt (MIC 110), good for 2d8 HP 3/day.

Chesty's got greater natural reach than normal, thanks to a graft (Silthilar flexible spine, LoM 216) and a feat (Extended Reach, SS 34). Situationally he can have even more: 20' instead of 10' for a round, 3 times a day, with Greatreach Bracers (MIC 108). That extra reach could combine well with his racial proficiency with the net (an exotic weapon with only 10' range) to entangle enemies where they think they're safe.

Every aquatic elf has superior low-light vision. Combining this with a greater weapon augment crystal of illumination on his bow Chesty can see up to 480', meaning he can make ranged attacks against most enemies well outside their visual range, and Improved Precise Shot combines to remove the concealment miss chance from shadowy illumination in the outer 240' of that range. His Ring of the Darkhidden keeps Chesty from being seen using darkvision. He also carries a bullseye lantern for a similar illumination range, but limited to a cone. As always, the magical capabilities are better, but not anything Chesty can't do without. Darkvision is limited in range (usually 60') and Chesty can attack at much greater distances using his superior low-light vision; that makes the Ring of the Darkhidden nice to have, but not essential to Chesty's archery prowess in the dark.

The Secret Ingredient characteristics are:
Full BAB
good Fortitude saves; poor Reflex & Will
d10 HD
Proficiency with all simple and martial weapons; light, medium, and heavy armors; and all shields including tower shields
Fighter Bonus Feats @ level 1 and all even levels (11 FBFs @ Fighter 20, plus general feats)
only 2 + INT mod skill points/level
no magic
Chesty has full BAB: 20/20.

Fighter 20 base saves are +12/+6/+6. Chesty's level 20 base saves are +16/+8/+9, slightly better on all counts.

Chesty's classes are all in the range of d8-d12 HD. His average total is 100.5 + 120 (CON 22) = 220.5 HP. A Fighter 20 would have 104.5 + 120 = 224.5 HP on average. Chesty is at 98.2% of the Fighter 20 HPs.

Chesty has all the weapon and armor proficiencies of a Fighter, though not completely until the first level of Citadel Elite. Chesty also is proficient with all the listed weapons of aquatic elves, including the net (an exotic weapon).

The staggered class levels of the build are arranged to make most bonus feats happen on even levels. (There's an extra FBF at level 17 and two of them at level 20, and none at level 1, but it's a pretty decent match.) Here's Chesty's list:

Fighter Feats
@2: Rapid Shot (Ranger 2 combat style)
@3: Power Attack
@4: Point Blank Shot (Champion of the Wild Ranger ACF swaps spellcasting for feats)
@6: Manyshot (Ranger 6 combat style)
@8: Dodge (Battle Trickster 2)
@8: Improved Sunder via DCS from Track
@10: Mounted Combat (Citadel Elite 2)
@12: Weapon Focus (longsword) (Citadel Elite 4)
@14: Improved Critical (longsword) (Doomlord 2)
@16: Combat Expertise (CotW)
@17: Mounted Archery (Champion of Corellon Larethian 1)
@18: Improved Buckler Defense
@20: Precise Shot (CotW)
@20: Improved Precise Shot (Ranger 11 combat style)
Improved Initiative simulated by Silthilar flexible spine graft's +4 bonus to initiative
Deflect Arrows simulated by greater crystal of arrow deflection
Mobility obtained as an armor enhancement
14 (+3) FBFs

Non-Fighter Feats
@1: Dragon Wings
@6: Improved Dragon Wings
@9: Improved Flight
@12: Flyby Attack
@12: Improved Flyby Attack via DCS from Endurance
@15: Extended Reach
20 (+3) total feats

So why the Dark Chaos Shuffle feat swaps? After all, Chesty has sufficient Fighter feats to match the Secret Ingredient (18 total feats with 11+ FBFs) already. However, removing Track also negates the Ranger swift tracker class feature (not a Fighter competency). Endurance is of little use anyway because Chesty's light armor can be slept in without problems, and he auto-succeeds at hourly Swim checks to avoid fatigue. In essence, a couple more feat choices makes Chesty a better Fighter (less like a Ranger).

Chesty's attitude about skills is that cross-class choices shouldn't deter him from gaining the best all-around fighting capabilities.
Balance: don't get caught flat-footed
Diplomacy: options are good, and a way to avoid a fight is a good option to have
Gather Information: stay on top of local events to avoid surprises
Knowledge (architecture and engineering): understand structures you're fighting in
Knowledge (religion): religious differences can provoke violent conflict
Sense Motive: defend against feints
Spot: you can't fight what you can't see
Tumble: battlefield maneuverability is key
Chesty's got more class skills than a Fighter. But when you figure in the cross-class skill choices, skill tricks, and racial INT penalty, he's got comparable skill ranks to a Human with 2 + INT mod skill points each level. All skills which are cross-class for a Fighter are limited to the maximum cross-class ranks allowed at level 20 (11½).

This build comes very close to having no magical class abilities, with only two exceptions: entropic blow and Corellon's blessing. Both abilities are dependent on CHA mod, so keeping that down to +0 helps. But once a day Chesty can add 2x his Doomlord level (+4) to damage on a single attack, and once a day he can heal himself of 1 HP. Naturally Chesty has no spellcasting capability whatsoever, so the Doomlord "+1 level of existing class" has no effect.

Elegance
The flow of the prestige classes is worth some comment. Chesty Puller worships Corellon Larethian (CG), the creator and protector of the elf race. His own alignment is LN, though, which is a more suitable alignment for a disciplined fighter. Chesty isn't a Cleric, so there's no alignment issue with his patron deity, and his alignment satisfies the Citadel Elite lawful requirement. The regional requirement fits his race well: Sharn is the ocean Gateway to Xen'drik (SCoT 19), birthplace of the elves (ECS 14). In contrast to the mission of the Citadel Elite to preserve the state, Doomlord is about entropy.
A doomlord’s life holds the greatest appeal for fighters and barbarians who enjoy smashing and destroying. ... They act with a focus on entropy, not evil. While you might think otherwise, a Doomlord doesn't need to be chaotic. Chesty combined his Crowd-Walker (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) ability with the Doomlord entry requirement (throw 500 gp into a crowd as a diversion) to enable a tactical retreat. :smallwink: That was purposely entropic, not chaotic.

While Chesty Puller uses just one base class, there are four prestige classes. Only one of them is taken as a single-level dip. The reason why the build doesn't proceed beyond that dip is that a second level of Champion of Corellon Larethian would have provided a singnificant boost to combat capability (DEX to damage with every hit of his main melee weapon), increasing the character's Power beyond that of the SI.

There are many magic items listed here, including a couple used as prerequisites for feats. Neither of those feats (Extended Reach and Improved Flyby Attack) are Fighter feats, and the build wouldn't be hurt appreciably by removing the items. They're included simply because I wanted to create a fully-realized character, and those are capabilities I think would serve a level 20 Fighter well.

Power
The Chesty Puller build was designed to maximize bonus feats (especially bonus Fighter feats) as class features and minimize the power of other class features. For instance, two levels of Battle Trickster only grant a single extra skill trick beyond the FBF, a very minor benefit. Ranger swift tracker was purposely negated by trading away Track via DCS. A couple other Ranger abilities, favored enemy and evasion, can be duplicated by magic items that would be reasonable choices for a Fighter; their effect is essentially a minor boost to the budget of a level 20 character. As noted in Ingredient above, entropic blow and Corellon's blessing are rendered close to meaningless by keeping Charisma to a +0 modifier. With no base spellcasting, Doomlord "+1 level of existing class" adds nothing to the character's power, while healing resistance actually reduces Chesty's ability to be healed. Four levels of Citadel Elite adds 4 points to Chesty's AC, but that's a minor component of the total (AC 46) and beyond a certain point additional AC doesn't do much for a character's power. Diplomatic protection and royal contact will be meaningless in a campaign outside Breland. Similarly, the extra action points class feature has no effect in a game which doesn't include action points.

Overall I think Chesty Puller is slightly weaker than a Fighter at lower levels and slightly stronger at higher levels.

Innovation
Chesty Puller's a tricky lawful entropic flying draconic amphibious aquatic elf Marine. Make your own judgment.

[dysprosium]

According to this guy, short people got no reason to live!


Darren



TN: Draconic Goliath: Warblade 6/Spirit Lion Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker 6



Background



Background

Darren a warrior of the realm dedicated to a prominent noble lord, betrayed by a fellow squire where he was left to die in a fire. After recovering from his injuries, Darren worked his way from that of a lowly squire up through the ranks to become a great warrior as a young adult.
Darren who is now uglier than sin, when sin sees him coming sin wets it's self, then turns and runs screaming in terror. He is a mercenary for hire, One that will take any job that pays and will at a moments notice, if money is offered change battle sides according to the side that pays the most. The only thing’s Darren cares about are his personal weapons, armor and his trusty horse. He has an extreme dislike for halflings and gnomes (Especially Gnomes!), and has given many a gnome a swift boot to the backside just because the creature was in his way.





Racial Information


Racial Information

Goliath
Str +4 Dex –2 Con +2

Monstrous Humanoid

Medium size

speed 30ft

Mountain Movement

Acclimated
Powerful Build

+2 bonus on Sense Motive checks

Languages: Common, Gol-Kaa, Giant, Terran

Level adjustment +1


Draconic

gain the dragonblood subtype

Natural armor improves by 1

Lowlight Vision

Darkvision 60 ft

Str +2 Con +2 Cha +2

+2 racial bonus on Intimidate and Spot checks

Level Adjustment +1





Character Abilities



Abilities

32 point buy

str 15 dex 16 con 10 int 14 wis 14 cha 8


Racial

Str +6 Dex –2 Con +4 Cha +2

str 21 dex 14 con 14 int 14 wis 14 cha 10


ECL 20

l4 dex +1

l8 str +1

l12 dex +1

l16 con +1

str 22 dex 16 con 15 int 14 wis 14 cha 10





Build


Build






Level

Class

Base Attack Bonus

Fort Save

Ref Save

Will Save

Skills

Feats

Class Features





1st

Warblade 1

1

2

0

0

Climb 4, Concentration 4, Intimidate 4, Jump 4, Tumble 4, Ride 2cc

Power Attack

Battle clarity (Reflex saves), weapon aptitude





2nd

Warblade 2

2

3

0

0

Climb 5, Concentration 5, Intimidate 5, Jump 5, Tumble 5, Ride 2.5cc

-

Uncanny dodge





3rd

Warblade 3

3

3

1

1

Climb 6, Concentration 6, Intimidate 6, Jump 6, Tumble 6, Ride 3cc

Cleave

Battle ardor (critical confirmation)





4th

Warblade 4

4

4

1

1

Climb 7, Concentration 7, Intimidate 7, Jump 7, Tumble 7, Balance 1

-

-





5th

Warblade 5

5

4

1

1

Climb 8, Concentration 8, Intimidate 8, Jump 8, Tumble 8, Balance 2

Improved Initiative

Bonus feat





6th

Warblade 6

6

5

2

2

Climb 9, Concentration 9, Intimidate 9, Jump 9, Tumble 9, Balance 3

Destructive Rage

Improved uncanny dodge





7th

Spirit Lion Barbarian 1

7

7

2

2

Climb 10, Intimidate 10, Jump 10, Ride 4, Concentration 9.5cc, , Tumble 9.5cc

-

illiteracy, rage 1/day





8th

Spirit Lion Barbarian 2

8

8

2

2

Climb 11, Intimidate 11, Jump 11, Ride 5, Concentration 10cc, , Tumble 10cc

-

Uncanny dodge




9th

Spirit Lion Barbarian 3

9

8

3

3

Climb 12, Intimidate 12, Jump 12, Ride 8

Exotic WP Minotaur/Goliath Greathammer

Trap sense +1





10th

Spirit Lion Barbarian 4

10

9

3

3

Climb 13, Intimidate 13, Jump 13, Ride 11

-

Rage 2/day





11th

Spirit Lion Barbarian 5

11

9

3

3

Climb 14, Intimidate 14, Jump 14, Ride 14

-

Improved uncanny dodge





12th

Spirit Lion Barbarian 6

12

10

4

4

Climb 15, Intimidate 15, Jump 15, Ride 15, Survival 2

Intimidating Rage

Trap sense +2





13th

Frenzied Berserker 1

13

12

4

4

Climb 16, Intimidate 16, Jump 16, Ride 16

Diehard

Frenzy 1/day, Diehard





14th

Frenzied Berserker 2

14

13

4

4

Climb 17, Intimidate 17, Jump 17, Ride 17

-

Supreme cleave





15th

Frenzied Berserker 3

15

13

5

5

Climb 18, Intimidate 18, Jump 18, Ride 18

Imp. Bullrush

Frenzy 2/day





16th

Frenzied Berserker 4

16

14

5

5

Climb 19, Intimidate 19, Jump 19, Ride 19

-

Deathless frenzy





17th

Frenzied Berserker 5

17

14

5

5

Climb 20, Intimidate 20, Jump 20, Ride 20

-

Frenzy 3/day, improved power attack





18th

Frenzied Berserker 6

18

15

6

6

Climb 21, Intimidate 21, Jump 21, Ride 21

Shocktrooper

Inspire frenzy 1/day





19th

Draconic Goliath LA 1

18

15

6

6

-

-

-





20th

Draconic Goliath LA 2

18

15

6

6

-

-

-









Maneuvers Known



Maneuvers Known
White Raven Maneuvers

6

War Leader’s Charge: Strike—No attacks of opportunity while charging, deal +35 damage

4

White Raven Strike: Strike—Deal +4d6 damage, target becomes flat-footed

1

Bolstering Voice: Stance—Allies gain +2 bonus on Will saves, +4 against fear



Tiger Claw Maneuvers

5

Dancing Mongoose: Boost—Make one extra attack with each weapon (max of two extra attacks)


Pouncing Charge: Strike—When you charge, make multiple attacks

3

Leaping Dragon Stance: Stance—+10 on Jump checks, always considered running for jumps

2

Claw at the Moon: Strike—Make Jump check, deal +2d6 damage
1

Wolf Fang Strike: Strike—Attack with two weapons





SI Emulation



SI Emulation

* SI - Fighter *

HD: D10
SP: 2+int

Bab 20, Fort 12, Ref 6, Will 6

Skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, Swim

Bonus feats: 1,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20 - must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats

Initiator Level: 10



*Build*

HD: 12
SP: 3+int average

Bab 18, Fort 15, Ref 6, Will 6

Skills: Climb 21, Intimidate 21, Jump 21, Ride 21, Concentration 10, Tumble 10, Balance 3, Survival 2

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Bullrush, Exotic WP Minotaur/Goliath Greathammer, Leap Attack, Shocktrooper, Improved Critical

Initiator Level: 12



(Optional Stuff)
Warhorse, Heavy (PHB p. 131)

Mithral Full Plate (RotW p. 168)

Large Minotaur/Goliath Greathammer (MM4 p. 101, ROS p. 154)





Sources


Sources

SRD

Goliath ( Races of Stone p. 56 )

Draconic ( Races of the Dragon p. 74 )
Warblade ( Tomb of Battle p. 20 )

Barbarian ( Player's Handbook p. 24 )

Spirit Lion Totem ( Complete Champion p. 46 ): gain the pounce ability ( MM 313 )

Frenzied Berserker ( Complete Warrior p. 34 )

Power Attack ( Player's Handbook p. 98 )

Cleave ( Player's Handbook p. 92 )

Improved Bullrush ( Player's Handbook p. 82 )

Exotic WP Minotaur/Goliath Greathammer ( Player's Handbook p. 94 )

Destructive Rage (CWar p97)
Intimidating Rage (CWar p102)
Shocktrooper ( Complete Warrior p. 112 )



XP FOR MULTICLASS CHARACTERS ( Player's Handbook p. 60 )
Even Levels: If your multiclass character’s classes are nearly the same level (all within one class level of each other), then he or she can balance the needs of the multiple classes without penalty.

[dysprosium]

I thought there were supposed to be seven of these guys . . .


Hankaru Sulo

LN: Human (Crab Clan): OA-Samurai 20

Character Background

Background Hankaru Sulo is a very practical guy, having many interests and hobbies, including gymnastics, botany, fencing, and ancient weaponry.
When he was seven years old, the boy was raised by his uncle who gave him formal training in the way of a swordsman.
at the age of 15 he left his village, with his family weapon, to go and study in Shoreian temple. The training did not last for a very long time
master of the Yoshioka school and won 2 out of 3 bouts in front of the shogun at the time, Ashikaga Yoshiaki who granted him the title
as he had become a warrior who participated in the war and after took a pilgrimage during which he honed his skills with duels.
It was these skills and unmatched ability that he soon established himself and became Samurai & Lord of Takei Castle in the Yoshi Province.


Character Abilities

Abilities
32 point buy
str 16 dex 16 con 10 int 14 wis 10 cha 10
lvl 4 str +1
lvl 8 dex +1
lvl 12 str +1
lvl 16 dex +1
lvl 20 int +1
str 18 dex 18 con 10 int 15 wis 10 cha 10


Build
Effective Character Levels



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
OA-Samurai
1
2
0
2
Climb 4, Craft (Weaponsmith) 4, Intimidate 4, Jump 4, Ride 4, Swim 4
Power Attack, Lightning Reflexes
Ancestral daisho


2nd
2
3
0
3
Climb 5, Craft (Weaponsmith) 5, Intimidate 5, Jump 5, Ride 5, Swim 5
Armor Proficiency (heavy)
Bonus feat


3rd
OA-Samurai
3
3
1
3
Climb 6, Craft (Weaponsmith) 6, Intimidate 6, Jump 6, Ride 6, Swim 6
EWP (katana)
-


4th
OA-Samurai
4
4
1
4
Climb 7, Craft (Weaponsmith) 7, Intimidate 7, Jump 7, Ride 7, Swim 7
Weapon Focus (katana)
Bonus feat


5th
OA-Samurai
5
4
1
4
Climb 8, Craft (Weaponsmith) 8, Intimidate 8, Jump 8, Ride 8, Swim 8
-
-


6th
OA-Samurai
6
5
2
5
Climb 9, Craft (Weaponsmith) 9, Intimidate 9, Jump 9, Ride 9, Swim 9
Dodge
-


7th
OA-Samurai
7
5
2
5
Climb 10, Craft (Weaponsmith) 10, Intimidate 10, Jump 10, Ride 10, Swim 10
Endurance
Bonus feat


8th
OA-Samurai
8
6
2
6
Climb 11, Craft (Weaponsmith) 11, Intimidate 11, Jump 11, Ride 11, Swim 11
-
-


9th
OA-Samurai
9
6
3
6
Climb 12, Craft (Weaponsmith) 12, Intimidate 12, Jump 12, Ride 12, Swim 12
Mobility
-


10th
OA-Samurai
10
7
3
7
Climb 13, Craft (Weaponsmith) 13, Intimidate 13, Jump 13, Ride 13, Swim 13
Spring Attack
Bonus feat


11th
OA-Samurai
11
7
3
7
Climb 14, Craft (Weaponsmith) 14, Intimidate 14, Jump 14, Ride 14, Swim 14
-
-


12th
OA-Samurai
12
8
4
8
Climb 15, Craft (Weaponsmith) 15, Intimidate 15, Jump 15, Ride 15, Swim 15
Combat Expertise
-


13th
OA-Samurai
13
8
4
8
Climb 16, Craft (Weaponsmith) 16, Intimidate 16, Jump 16, Ride 16, Swim 16
Run
Bonus feat


14th
OA-Samurai
14
9
4
9
Climb 17, Craft (Weaponsmith) 17, Intimidate 17, Jump 17, Ride 17, Swim 17
-
-


15th
OA-Samurai
15
9
5
9
Climb 18, Craft (Weaponsmith) 18, Intimidate 18, Jump 18, Ride 18, Swim 18
Improved Bull Rush
-


16th
OA-Samurai
16
10
5
10
Climb 19, Craft (Weaponsmith) 19, Intimidate 19, Jump 19, Ride 19, Swim 19
Cleave
Bonus feat


17th
OA-Samurai
17
10
5
10
Climb 20, Craft (Weaponsmith) 20, Intimidate 20, Jump 20, Ride 20, Swim 20
-
-


18th
OA-Samurai
18
11
6
11
Climb 21, Craft (Weaponsmith) 21, Intimidate 21, Jump 21, Ride 21, Swim 21
Shock Trooper
-


19th
OA-Samurai
19
11
6
11
Climb 22, Craft (Weaponsmith) 22, Intimidate 22, Jump 22, Ride 22, Swim 22
Great Cleave
Bonus feat


20th
OA-Samurai
20
12
6
12
Climb 23, Craft (Weaponsmith) 23, Intimidate 23, Jump 23, Ride 23, Swim 23
-
-




Breakdown

Breakdown
OA-Samurai 3.5 - yes there is a Samurai in Com. War, these are 2 totally different functioning style Samurai.
this was chosen to simulate the SI Fighter as it closely follows the feat progression while maintaining the HD and close to the skill points of the fighter
the skills taken are the majority of those offered by a standard fighter.
feats selected are to represent fighter style feats and still have something of a battle worthy character that fills the role of "Fighter"

All OA-Samurai begin play with a katana and a wakizashi-two masterwork weapons (WBL = 760,000; TABLE 2-2: ANCESTRAL DAISHO +10* 200,000 gp 18th, makes both weapons +10, with 360,000 left for armor & other items)


Sources

Sources
SRD
Human (PH p12)
OA-samurai (OA p20)
Power Attack (PH p98)
Lightning Reflexes (PH p97)
Armor Proficiency (heavy) (PH p89)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (PH p94)
Weapon Focus (PH p102)
Endurance (PH p93)
Dodge (PH p93)
Mobility (PH p98)
Spring Attack (PH p100)
Combat Expertise (PH p92)
Run (PH p99)
Improved Bull Rush (PH p95)
Cleave (PH p92)
Great Cleave (PH p94)
Shock Trooper (CWar p112)

[dysprosium]

Is that a hammer in your pocket or are you happy to see me?




Thor Odinson

What is a Fighter?

What is a Fighter? It’s a more complex question than you’d think, as is the case with any class. Is a class nothing more than the mechanical sum of its class features? Is it the flavor that turns the numbers and words into a full character? Is it some combination of mechanics and fluff?

What differentiates this powerful Tier 5 mundane warrior from the rest? The answer is simple, just look to their strengths: where and when do they have the advantage? The Ranger is best when facing their a specific creature type of their choice; a Paladin is best when facing creatures of a specific alignment; a Barbarian is best when he can buff himself to rage all day; a rogue is best when their target’s guard is down; a Monk is best when, for one glorious moment, they faced a foe that was particularly vulnerable to their combination of weak attacks, weak damage, and terrible class features. But when is the Fighter better?

The answer is never...but they’re always great. Every other mundane warrior is the Fighter’s superior under the right circumstances, but the Fighter beats them whenever that circumstance isn’t present. The Fighter is equally useful against a wide range of opponents, in a wide range of locations, under a wide range of circumstances...at least, for a mundane warrior.

A Fighter is defined by their effectiveness in many situations, with the only constant factor being the weapon and/or fighting style they’ve chosen to employ. The Fighter is at its best with its favored weapon/fighting style. A Fighter can enter combat in most any kind of armor, with most any kind of weapon, and with their chosen weapon, they are unstoppable. Of course, a class is defined just as much by its weaknesses as it is by its strengths.

This build will attempt to meet all the following requirements:
-At least Medium Armor Proficiency, and preferably Heavy Armor Proficiency as well
-Simple Weapon Proficiency and Martial Weapon Proficiency
-High Fortitude Save and Low Will Save
-Specializes with a particular weapon and/or Fighting Style
-Is an effective combatant under most circumstances


Build

NG Dragonborn Goliath Rogue 4/Barbarian 2/Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 5
32 point-buy: Str 16; Dex 14; Con 12; Int 14; Wis 14
After racial and level adjustment: Str 25; Dex 10; Con 16; Int 14; Wis 14; Cha 8

ACFs utilized

-Martial Rogue (UA): replaces Rogue Sneak Attack progression with Fighter Bonus Feat progression
-Goliath Rogue Racial Substitution Level 2 (RoS): replaces Evasion with Mettle of Mountains
-Spell Sense Rogue (CM): Replace Trap Sense bonus with Spell Sense Bonus.
-Uncanny Bravery Rogue (DrM): Replaces Uncanny Dodge with Uncanny Bravery
-Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian (CC): Replaces Fast Movement with pounce.
-Crafty Hunter Barbarian (UA): Replaces Rage and Indomitable Will with Favored Enemy and Ranger Ranged Combat Style feats.




Level
Race
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Goliath
Rogue 1 (Martial Rogue; Spell Sense Rogue; Uncanny Bravery Rogue)
+0
+0
+2
+0
Balance 4; Climb 4; Concentration 2; Knowledge (Nature) 2; Listen 4; Sense Motive 4; Sleight of Hand 4; Spot 4; Tumble 4; Use Magic Device 4
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Goliath Greathammer); Point Blank Shot
Trapfinding


2nd
Goliath
Rogue 2 (Martial Rogue; Spell Sense Rogue;Uncanny Bravery Rogue; Goliath Substitution)
+1
+0
+3
+0
Balance 5; Climb 5; Concentration 2; Knowledge (Local) 2; Knowledge (Nature) 2; Listen 5; Sense Motive 5; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 5; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 5
Weapon Focus (Goliath Greathammer)
Mettle of Mountains


3rd
Goliath
Barbarian 1 (Spirit Lion Totem; Crafty Hunter)
+2
+2
+3
+0
Balance 6; Climb 5; Concentration 2; Knowledge (Local) 2; Knowledge (Nature) 3; Listen 5; Sense Motive 5; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 5; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 6
Power Attack
Pounce; Favored Enemy (Giants)


4th
Goliath
Barbarian 2 (Spirit Lion Totem; Crafty Hunter)
+3
+3
+3
+0
Balance 7; Climb 5; Concentration 3; Knowledge (Local) 2; Knowledge (Nature) 3; Listen 5; Sense Motive 5; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 5; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 7
Rapid Shot
Uncanny Dodge


5th
Goliath
Warblade 1
+4
+5
+3
+0
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 4; Knowledge (Local) 2; Knowledge (Nature) 4; Listen 5; Sense Motive 5; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 5; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 8

Battle Clarity (Reflex Saves); Weapon Aptitude


6th
Goliath
Warblade 2
+5
+6
+3
+0
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 5; Knowledge (Local) 3; Knowledge (Nature) 4; Listen 5; Sense Motive 6; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 5; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 9
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Uncanny Dodge


7th
Goliath
Bloodstorm Blade 1
+6
+8
+3
+0
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 6; Knowledge (Local) 3; Knowledge (Nature) 5; Listen 5; Sense Motive 6; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 6; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 10
Throw Anything
Returning Attacks; Weapon Aptitude


8th
Goliath
Bloodstorm Blade 2
+7
+9
+3
+0
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 7; Knowledge (Local) 3; Knowledge (Nature) 5; Listen 5; Sense Motive 7; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 7; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 11

Martial Throw; Thunderous Throw


9th
Goliath
Bloodstorm Blade 3
+8
+9
+4
+1
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 8; Knowledge (Local) 3; Knowledge (Nature) 6; Listen 5; Sense Motive 7; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 8; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 12
Shock Trooper; Precise Shot



10th
Goliath
Bloodstorm Blade 4
+9
+10
+4
+1
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 9; Knowledge (Local) 3; Knowledge (Nature) 6; Listen 5; Sense Motive 8; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 9; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 13

Lightning Ricochet


11th
Goliath
Master Thrower 1
+10
+10
+6
+1
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 10; Knowledge (Local) 3; Knowledge (Nature) 7; Listen 5; Sense Motive 8; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 10; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 14
Quick Draw
Thrown Weapon Trick (Two with One Blow)


12th
Dragonborn Goliath
Master Thrower 2
+11
+10
+7
+1
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 11; Knowledge (Local) 3; Knowledge (Nature) 7; Listen 5; Sense Motive 9; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 11; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 15
Far Shot
Evasion


13th
Dragonborn Goliath
Warblade 3
+12
+10
+8
+2
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 12; Knowledge (Local) 4; Knowledge (Nature) 7; Listen 5; Sense Motive 10; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 11; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 16

Battle Ardor (Critical Confirmation)


14th
Dragonborn Goliath
Rogue 3 (Martial Rogue; Spell Sense Rogue; Uncanny Bravery Rogue)
+13
+11
+8
+3
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 13; Knowledge (Local) 5; Knowledge (Nature) 8; Listen 6; Sense Motive 11; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 12; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 17

Spell Sense +1


15th
Dragonborn Goliath
Rogue 4 (Martial Rogue; Spell Sense Rogue; Uncanny Bravery Rogue)
+14
+11
+9
+3
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 14; Knowledge (Local) 6; Knowledge (Nature) 9; Listen 7; Sense Motive 12; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 13; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 18
Weapon Specialization (Goliath Greathammer); Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning)
Uncanny Bravery


16th
Dragonborn Goliath
Master Thrower 3
+15
+12
+9
+4
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 15; Knowledge (Local) 6; Knowledge (Nature) 9; Listen 7; Sense Motive 13; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 14; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 19

Thrown Weapon Trick (Deadeye Shot {Goliath Greathammer})


17th
Dragonborn Goliath
Master Thrower 4
+16
+12
+10
+4
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 16; Knowledge (Local) 6; Knowledge (Nature) 10; Listen 7; Sense Motive 13; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 15; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 20
Snatch Arrows



18th
Dragonborn Goliath
Master Thrower 5
+17
+12
+10
+4
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 17; Knowledge (Local) 6; Knowledge (Nature) 10; Listen 7; Sense Motive 14; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 16; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 21
Knowledge Devotion
Critical Throw; Thrown Weapon Trick (Weak Spot)


19th
Dragonborn Goliath
Warblade 4
+18
+13
+10
+4
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 17; Knowledge (Local) 6; Knowledge (Nature) 11; Listen 7; Sense Motive 14; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 17; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 22




20th
Dragonborn Goliath
Warblade 5
+19
+13
+10
+4
Balance 8; Climb 5; Concentration 18; Knowledge (Local) 7; Knowledge (Nature) 11; Listen 7; Sense Motive 14; Sleight of Hand 5; Spot 18; Tumble 5; Use Magic Device 23
Crushing Strike





RAW

So, it turns out that the RAW of this build is a little convoluted, so to save time, I’ll tell you the conclusions now, and if you want to check, I’ll explain below. The conclusions:

-I can throw any weapon with no penalty to the attack.
-By spending a swift action, I can treat any thrown weapon ranged attack rolls as melee attack rolls. This distinction means that Far Shot and Rapid Shot still apply.
-My thrown weapons benefit from Melee Weapon Mastery, so long as they could be used in melee.
-When I charge, I must charge an opponent as anyone else does, but my pounce allows me to make thrown weapon attacks for the remaining attacks.


The Thunderous Throw class ability reads as thus:


Thunderous Throw (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, you build up incredible tension as you ready yourself to throw your weapon, which becomes visible around you like heat waves. When you release your weapon, that power rushes out with your weapon. As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your melee attack bonus, including Strength bonus, feats, and so forth, to determine your attack bonus for each attack as normal, but you apply the standard modifiers for range penalties. Attacking into melee, through cover, and so forth incurs the standard penalties. In addition, you can apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage if you wield the thrown weapon with two hands, and you can use Power Attack with your thrown weapon attacks (adding two times the number subtracted from attack rolls as a bonus on damage rolls when throwing a twohanded weapon).

The bolded word means that, while I’m making a melee attack roll, this thrown weapon attack is still a ranged attack. Thus, effects applying only to melee attacks don’t come into play, and effects applying only to ranged attacks do.

That said, effects applying to melee attack rolls, like Power Attack.


On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.


Now to discuss Melee Weapon Mastery.


When you select this feat, choose bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. You must have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with a melee weapon that deals this type of damage. When using any melee weapon that has the damage type you selected, you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls and a +2 bonus on damage rolls.

As you can see, the feat doesn’t call out melee attacks, but melee weapons. So what’s the difference between melee and ranged weapons, according to RAW?



Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

Interestingly enough, thrown weapons count as melee weapons so long as they can be used in melee, which means that they would benefit from Melee Weapon Mastery, instead of the ranged version.

Now, how does the charge work?


You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.
You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent.

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

So a charge is movement in a straight line with a single melee attack at the end; this means that thrown weapons can’t be used, even with Thunderous Throw. But pounce is different…



When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

So a pounce alters a normal charge. A particularly liberal interpretation of the rules would say that you get the charge’s single attack, followed by a full attack, but in my experience this causes DMs to make frowny faces at you, so just stick with the full attack. Regardless, the first attack you make at the end of your charge has to be a melee attack, but the rest are subject to the normal rules governing full attacks.



If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

Nowhere does it say you can’t mix melee and ranged attacks during a full attack. Nowhere does it say all attacks must go against the same target. Regardless, now we know for sure that this is RAW legal.



Suggested Tactics/Items

Tactics:

Repeat after me: Shock Trooper and Knockback. This combo is just so beautiful, especially with Bloodstorm Blade. Let me paint you a picture with words:

Thor, through feats and items, has a 100 ft range increment when throwing weapons. He comes across a titan, activates Thunderous Throw, and Heedless Pounces it from 30 ft away while employing full PA tradeoff and Shock Trooper. He hits, does damage, and initiates a Knockback: the Titan’s Bull Rush resistance bonus is +24; not too shabby.

Unfortunately for him, Thor’s Bull Rush bonus is a whopping +61. If Thor gets a 1, and the Titan gets a 20 on their respective rolls, the Titan “only” goes flying back 20 ft; if Thor gets a 20 and the Titan gets a 1, the Titan goes flying back 60 ft. After this is over, Thor can throw his hammer 3 times (4 with haste effects), and each one has that PA tradeoff, and can also initiate a Knockback of similar ridiculousness. The only problem is that you last couple attacks have a decent enough chance to miss, even with Crushing Strike.

That’s okay though, because each attack that hits does 3d6+66; the melee one has 20/x4 criticals, while the thrown attacks have 19-20/x5 criticals. Titans have an average of 370 hp; unfortunately for them, even not counting for Crushing Strike bonuses to accuracy, the charging attack bonus, or any buffs/other items on Thor, he does an average of about 315 dpr to a creature with 38 AC and DR 15. That Titan is in trouble; hope it brought friends. An army of giants? Don’t make me laugh! Thor would leave nothing but a battlefield full of bloody stains, unless the giants were all epic.


Items:

Weapons
There’s no question here: Goliath Greathammer for the base weapon, and almost definitely an adamantine one. As for enchantments, you don’t really need the returning quality. These go well with this build:
-Balanced (A&EG): Now you can wield a huge two-handed weapon without penalty. And throw it at people. Who cares if it’s optimal? You just threw a 20 ft long sledge hammer at someone!

-Bane (DMG): If your campaign has a certain creature type particularly often, take this; if not, don’t.

-Distance (DMG): This can only be placed on ranged weapons, which means no thrown weapons usable in melee. That said, I can’t see any but the strictest DM saying no to this.

-Flying (OA): If dragonborn isn’t allowed, find some other way to fly: this method doesn’t allow air combat, since your weapon can’t fly you around and attack at the same time.

-Marrowcrushing (BoVD): On the surface, this looks pretty good. But what situation is this designed to be optimal? In exchange for sacrificing 15% accuracy and 3 points of HP damage per hit, I instead get 1 Con damage per hit. This is superior to +3 enhancement if the target has low AC, high HP, and more HD than 3 per attack you make. Alternatively, it can quickly take out low-Con creatures. So, we have creatures Thor already excels at killing (high HP, low AC) and low-Con creatures. Against the latter, for this to be optimal, we’re talking epic spellcasters with low Con, likely from age. And I can guarantee you, if this non-epic mundane build has a chance to take down an epic spellcaster, it’s not because of this enchantment.

-Surestriking (A&EG): Bypass any alignment DR for a +1 enchantment? Sold! Remember our friend the titan? Now he dies in that first round, since his DR no longer shields him.

-Thundering (DMG): Optimal? Eh, sort of. It’s good enough to be worth getting, especially with your x5 crit multiplier when throwing it. Your criticals are now 15d6+330+4d8 sonic. You just one shotted just about anything but a level-appropriate true dragon.



House Rule Adjustments

Firstly, this build utilizes LA buyoff via the rules outlined in Unearthed Arcana. If this is not allowed, then Crushing Strike isn’t gained. This isn’t a wholly necessary part of the build but if you really want it and you were already a bit stretched for skill points, I would suggest lowering your Knowledge (Nature) ranks, and dropping your Knowledge (Local) ranks, and then drop Knowledge Devotion. Crushing Strike always applies, while Knowledge Devotion is both situational and variable.

Secondly, as mentioned in the tactics section, this build falls prey to a rather interesting hole in the rules; if your DM is lenient enough to wave away the restrictions the wording of Thunderous Throw places on feat application, it allows your Heedless Pounce to begin with a thrown weapon attack as well, making your charges marginally more useful.

Thirdly, your DM might be uncomfortable with Goliaths and Dragonborn; Humans work great as a substitute, due to their extra feat. I suggest getting Knowledge Devotion early, but that’s just me; Improved Initiative, Steadfast Determination, Iron Will, and others are all good feats for shoring up some of your weaknesses.

Fourthly, your DM might be uncomfortable with Tome of Battle. This would be a large problem for this character concept. At this point, I advise you to adjust the levels, taking out all levels of Warblade and Bloodstorm Blade, and replacing them with levels of Hulking Hurler, Exotic Weapon Master, and War Hulk, if you wish to go that route. Be advised that, if your DM was worried about OP characters, throwing an optimized War Hulking Hurler at him is likely going to result in the fiat hammer coming down hard. You’ve been warned.

Fifthly (is that a word?), if your game is going to start in epic levels, avoid Goliath, avoid Dragonborn, and pump Dex high enough to have Dex 25 ASAP. There is nothing this build needs more than a larger range increment, and Distant Shot solves that problem forever.


How does Thor measure up?

Thor walks around wearing Mithral Light/Medium Armor, carrying a Large two-handed weapon. His AC is normally decent, but becomes pitiful whenever he initiates a Heedless Pounce. His true talent, as should be the case, is on the offensive: his DPR, especially when charging, is wonderful. Combine Warblade maneuvers with Bull Rush tricks and an irresistible Bull Rush bonus, and he’s got some battlefield control as well. He’s even got a couple useful skills, serving as another pair of eyes, while also bringing a maxed out UMD to the table. He gets a fly speed right around the time when such a thing becomes necessary. He’s a master of his chosen style, and his chosen weapon, and is a welcome addition to any party in need of a strong combatant.

And yet…is he really that much more powerful than a Fighter? The Fighter can pull off similar tricks with the right feats. Thor’s range and flight give him more options than the straight Fighter, and Bloodstorm Blade gives options that are almost unique. Yet, despite all that, this is still just a damage dealer; he’s got some minor battlefield control options, but the big draw is his dpr on a charge.

[dysprosium]

And that is all of them! Ended up with four this time around, which is not bad considering some of the dud ingredients I've presented lately. :smallredface:

We turn now to you judges!

[DeAnno]

Dragons everywhere! Shouldn't be too hard to judge with only 4 contestants, and I was wondering if anyone would do the OA Samurai. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, honestly, but it does have the unique feature of not being a dragonblood.

[WhamBamSam]

I was considering emulating Zhentarim Soldier by using Bounding Assault and/or Quicksilver Motion to get extra move actions to activate a suit of Fearsome Armor. Other than that it'd just have been bog standard Dreadful Wrath/Imperious Command/Never Outnumbered fear op on an equally bog standard charger/tripper with a bunch of feats from somewhere, and I didn't end up bothering.

I may try to judge these four if JW judging (which I've already committed to) doesn't eat up too much time.

Also, I'd like to suggest Spellthief as a future SI.

[Sian]

The idea i was running with was something in the lines of this:

Soulknife 3 / Ranger 4 / Soulbow 7 / Deepwood Stalker 2 / Shiba Protector 1 / Kensai 3

With Champion of the Wild ACF (Trading my Ranger spellcasting for an Bonus Feat) and trading my Psychic Strike for a Bonus Feat.

BAB 16 with Wisdom being added twice to both ToHit and Damage (Shiba + Zen Archery, and Shiba + Mind Bow)

[Muggins]

I was trying my darnedest to submit a Fang Dragon with the Wyrm of War sovereign archetype. Alas, I couldn't find the right levels in anything to make up for his lost feats (darn you, level adjustment!). Besides, it probably would've lost to our resident samurai.

[Cowardly Griffo]

I was going to go Anthropomorphic Badger, with Hideous Blow / Eldritch Glaive Warlock prestiging into Sand Shaper and taking Vow of Poverty being the build. Probably filling out the remaining levels with Warblade.

He was going to have this self-reliant, solitary defender, at-home-in-the-chaos-of-battle vibe going on. Being a Fighter isn't about having the best gear, it's about using what you have to best effect and never backing down from a fight; turning a handful of dust into a weapon, fueled by the rage and darkness burning away inside of you, seemed appropriate.

[AvatarVecna]

My second build was along the lines of a sorcerer who acts like a fighter to make his family proud. He uses magic and social skills to trick people into thinking he's a competent warrior instead of a deceitful spellcaster. It wasn't anywhere near finished though, and it would've been a bit of a joke entry anyway.

[Curmudgeon]

I had the thought that Cloistered Cleric 1 of Heironeous enables lots of options:

War domain grants Weapon Focus (longsword), a Fighter feat.
Fill in with Paladin levels for BAB, using Holy Warrior ACF (also Complete Champion) to replace the unneeded Paladin spellcasting with bonus feats, which you desperately need.
The Power of the Self Paladin variant (Dragon # 347, page 91) would have been really nice, because it trades various class features for Fighter feats. Not a legal source, though. :smallsigh:
You qualify for Ordained Champion (Complete Champion):

worship Hextor or Heironeous
Weapon Focus with deity’s favored weapon, granted by War domain
able to cast Magic Weapon
Knowledge (religion) 7 ranks (a class skill for both Cleric and Paladin)

Ordained Champion 1 has a class ability to swap 2 domain powers (Knowledge, and the other non-War domain) for 2 Fighter feats.
After Ordained Champion (it's only a 5-level PrC), Hospitaler (Complete Divine) has full BAB and grants bonus Fighter feats. Plus it's what you think of for one of the iconic Fighter roles: a mounted knight.
Ordained Champion and Hospitaler both advance Cleric spellcasting. If you can't make it, you can fake it with Divine Power (full BAB :smallbiggrin:).

[AvatarVecna]

I had the thought that Cloistered Cleric 1 of Heironeous enables lots of options:

War domain grants Weapon Focus (longsword), a Fighter feat.
Fill in with Paladin levels for BAB, using Holy Warrior ACF (also Complete Champion) to replace the unneeded Paladin spellcasting with bonus feats, which you desperately need.
The Power of the Self Paladin variant (Dragon # 347, page 91) would have been really nice, because it trades various class features for Fighter feats. Not a legal source, though. :smallsigh:
You qualify for Ordained Champion (Complete Champion):

worship Hextor or Heironeous
Weapon Focus with deity’s favored weapon, granted by War domain
able to cast Magic Weapon
Knowledge (religion) 7 ranks (a class skill for both Cleric and Paladin)

Ordained Champion 1 has a class ability to swap 2 domain powers (Knowledge, and the other non-War domain) for 2 Fighter feats.
After Ordained Champion (it's only a 5-level PrC), Hospitaler (Complete Divine) has full BAB and grants bonus Fighter feats. Plus it's what you think of for one of the iconic Fighter roles: a mounted knight.
Ordained Champion and Hospitaler both advance Cleric spellcasting. If you can't make it, you can fake it with Divine Power (full BAB :smallbiggrin:).


Don't forget that part of the contest is to emulate the feel and POWER of the original build. I imagine your Cloistered Cleric (or my Sorcerer, for that matter) wouldn't exactly be in line with the normal level of power a Fighter has.

[WhamBamSam]

I was trying my darnedest to submit a Fang Dragon with the Wyrm of War sovereign archetype. Alas, I couldn't find the right levels in anything to make up for his lost feats (darn you, level adjustment!). Besides, it probably would've lost to our resident samurai.This would have made me happy. I've been in the process of updating the dragon handbook over the course of the past few days, and one of the things that's really irritating me is not having come up with a Fang Tripper that I really like in the builds section. The biggest problem for me has been size (cramming in a high enough ML for consistent Expansion), not feats, but of course I haven't been aiming to replicate a straight fighter.

[Curmudgeon]

Don't forget that part of the contest is to emulate the feel and POWER of the original build. I imagine your Cloistered Cleric (or my Sorcerer, for that matter) wouldn't exactly be in line with the normal level of power a Fighter has.
Well, it's entirely possible to prepare only ineffectual spells, like Light and Virtue filling up all the spell slots. If all the spellcasting except for Divine Power is magic that's equivalent to torches or 1 (non-stacking) temporary hit point, that's not going to upset the Fighter archetype applecart, right?

But you'll notice that I didn't, in fact, go through with this build idea. Nor did I build a LE Elf Monk serving an Elder Evil, chaos shuffling everything (racial feats, Vile feats, Monk feats) into Fighter feats. For a SI that's all about the feats, there are lots of (mostly egregious) ways of going about it.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, it's entirely possible to prepare only ineffectual spells, like Light and Virtue filling up all the spell slots. If all the spellcasting except for Divine Power is magic that's equivalent to torches or 1 (non-stacking) temporary hit point, that's not going to upset the Fighter archetype applecart, right?

But you'll notice that I didn't, in fact, go through with this build idea. Nor did I build a LE Elf Monk serving an Elder Evil, chaos shuffling everything (racial feats, Vile feats, Monk feats) into Fighter feats. For a SI that's all about the feats, there are lots of (mostly egregious) ways of going about it.

Fair point. And of course, there's plenty of b.s. we could've pulled with this: between Chaos Shuffle, bonus feats, and ACFs giving bonus feats, there's so much that could've been done here to b.s. our way to warrior-hood. It's wonderful.

Also...

"I am Boldar, the Flashlight Warrior!"

[relytdan]

should be interesting to see how these 4 get judged.

[dysprosium]

Glad to see that this ingredient at least sparked ideas from the viewers even if some of those ideas did not make it into the competition.

The judging should be good for this one too.

I'm tossing around a couple of ingredients for the next round but haven't completely decided yet.

[relytdan]

any updates from judges? - just curious.

[Humble Master]

Hey guys, sorry I forget to mention it but I left for a week long Band Camp which is why I wasn't able to judge when the builds first came out. I'll get on it though, I should have plenty of time.

[DeAnno]

I'm more than halfway done with the judging now, as near as I can reckon it (need to go over UoSI and then probably do one more full review of everything). Shouldn't be too much longer.

[dysprosium]

Yes both of you still have plenty of time to get judgings in. Thank you for taking the time to do so also.

[relytdan]

with about 5 days to go I hope that our judges can get their stuff posted - after all it is only 4 entries

[dysprosium]

Quick peek in to see how our judges are coming along.

[Humble Master]

Quick peek in to see how our judges are coming along.I really have found that I don't have the time to judge with school starting up again soon for me. I apologize for this.

[DeAnno]

I am still judging, hopefully I will manage to finish within 24 hours.

[DeAnno]

Normally I don't like to doublepost, but since my Judging is done I thought people would appreciate the bump. It's a bit of a mess, and different categories were scored more or less mechanically, and I probably agonized over it way too long in general, but here it is

Chesty Puller: 12.61
Innovation: 4.25/5
-Fluff/Feel: 0.5/1 There are interesting moments of Fluff here and Citadel Elite (with its agent of the crown fluff) especially fits the marine theme you have going. I would've liked to see a bit more than a quote as the main fluff section though.
-Race: 1/1 The use of race to enable a lot of your mobility was nice and not commonly seen at all. I like how you tied your feats into it and really made a "Marine" theme here.
-Classes: 0.75/1 CC Feat Ranger was rather expected, but your prestige classes were not at all (maybe Battle Trickster, if only because I like working with Skill Tricks). They are also all pretty much nonexistent in the optimizationsphere.
-Feats/Etc: 1/1 Your Feats (and Skill Tricks) are diverse and not commonly seen, with focus on movement and ranged attacks instead of the common fighter standbys of Charge damage and restricting enemy movement.

Power: 2.75/5
Ranger is lowish T4 and none of the PRCs are spectacular so the bar is maybe a smidge higher than Fighter for Chesty. His nonfighter feats work together really well with his race to make him an all terrain character, which is good, and something most fighters would need gear for and not do as well even with gear. There are a variety of handy skills, but I wouldn't have minded more Spot to use Point it Out with.

The fighter feats are more of a mixed bag, with nothing truly amazing or even very good. I would've liked to see some numbers, or at least some discussion, about what Chesty can do with a ranged or melee full attack. I feel like in splitting himself between both styles he spread himself too thin, and didn't assemble the sort of BFC tricks or damage engines a fighter should be expected to. He can fight everywhere and in lots of ways, but none of them are that good. His lack of strong attack bonuses (due in part to low Str/Dex) doesn't help here either.

You don't really get much credit for your extensive gear list because that isn't really an assumed thing in these competitions, but none of it is vital for you to exist so it doesn't take away either.

Elegance: 1/5
-Single Base class so no MC penalties
-3 dips in PRCs (-1.5)
-2 Chaos Shuffles (-2)
-LA Buyoff (-0.5)

UOSI: 4.61/5
-14 FBFs 1.4
-6 fairly direct combat feats (mobility, especially flying mobility, is hugely important in a fight) 0.6
-Useful Combat skills (effectively at will abilities) 0.2
-Useful Combat skill tricks 0.05
-At Will combat Abilities (Evasion, Combat Sense Defense) 0.2
-Favored Enemy stuff, Crowd Walker (at will combat abilities, even if really fringe) 0.05
-Resistance to healing (makes you a worse beatstick, [clarification] draining more party resources on healing you and working against the goal of long adventuring days) -0.2
-HP not getting credit for items, 161 => -0.19
-BaB 20 => 1
-Fort 16 => 0.5


Darren: 12.5
Innovation: 2/5
-Fluff/Feel: 0.5/1 You go to some effort here but could've used a grammar check. The various elements of the build are mostly thematic with each other, though White Raven is a bit of an odd duck out. (Mountain Hammer Maneuvers would have been thematic with your... Mountain Hammer.)
-Race: 0.5/1 Goliath is pretty bog standard for fighter, but Draconic Template isn't seen very often. Taking 2 LA and not buying if off took a bit of guts.
-Classes: 0/1 Warblade, Pouncebarian, and Frenzied Berserker are melee staples, and expected to come up when building a melee type.
-Feats/Etc: 0/1 Mostly prereqs for Shock Trooper and F.B. The maneuevers are nothing groundbreaking either.

Power: 3.25/5
Warblade, Pouncebarian, and Frenzied Berserker are a high T4/low T3 sort of bar, and are expected to be able to do some serious melee stuff. You have a good charge package offensively here (though Shock Trooper is pretty late) and defensively you are well covered by Deathless Frenzy, which is a common buildstyle for melee for a good reason.

Your maneuvers however confuse me for a lot of reasons. First you only go to Warblade 6; this should mean your highest level maneuvers are 3rd level, but instead of you lots of higher level maneuvers. You could have gotten these by delaying Warblade levels (Warblade 6 @ level 18 could get 6th level maneuvers) but your table has all the Warblade levels first. Most of the maneuvers that would've actually been useful for you that you picked are illegal ones too, so you don't get much credit for these at all.

Elegance: 4/5
-No dips, no MC penalties due to FC
-Illegal Maneuvers selected (-1) [You can only retrain maneuvers on even WARBLADE levels, not even Character levels]

UoSI: 3.25/5
-FBFs (9, you missed diehard and if it isnt an FBF it should be) 0.9
-Combat Skills 0.1
-At Will FBF like abilities (Imp PA, Supr cleave, uncanny dodge twins) 0.4
-Battle clarity, Battle Ardor, Trap Sense, Claw at the Moon taken all together 0.05
-Rage is fairly important and you only have 2/day (3*0.05) -0.15 (you got more than this penalty as bonus in your power score)
-Frenzy is hugely important and you only have 3/day (2*0.1) -0.2 (ditto)
-Your Stances are legal and one or the other is always on 0.1
-Your other maneuvers are all either illegal or not useful, as far as I can tell 0
-HP 18d12+36=159 average -0.2
-BaB 18 0.8
-Fort 15 0.45

Hankaru Sulo: 12.23
Innovation: 2/5
-Fluff/Feel: 0.75/1 A Samurai definitely feels like a fighter, and the fluff was fairly fun.
-Race: 0/1 Human was entirely expected for the bonus feat. Crab Clan doesn't seem to add anything significant.
-Classes: 0.25/1 Samurai is probably the closest class stylistically to Fighter so it was very expected here, but it is seen very rarely at least.
-Feats/Etc: 0/1 Nothing interesting here at all; generic badstuff and Shock Trooper.

Power: 1.75/5
Samurai 20 is almost certainly worse than even Fighter 20, so you have the minimum power bar to satisfy here. You do have Shock Trooper at the end to help a little bit, but other than that these feats don't seem to add up to any sort of real combat style. In fact, the Spring Attack line you picked up first is very poor outside of specific situations, and yet for some reason you went to the effort of getting all that before anything more practical. Its sad that for a class where the biggest feature is feats you didn't try to get more out of them.

Your class feature of a magic item would have been admissable, so its a shame you didn't discuss it more. It could at least get you some much needed DPR or Accuracy over time, so that helps a bit. You have some Intimidate for doing social situations in a fightery way which could be handy.

Elegance: 5/5
Can't fault 20 levels in a base class.

UoSI: 3.48/5
-FBFs/direct combat feats: I count 15, 1.5
-Combat Skills 0.1
-HP 20d10 => 115 (no con bonus ouch) -0.42
-BaB 20 => 1
-Fort +12 => 0.3

Thor Odinson: 14.56
Innovation: 2.5/5
Fluff/Feel: 0.25/1 You don't have any "fluff" persay, but the section on what makes a Fighter was interesting to read, and the whole thing feels right.
Race: 0/1 A Dragonborn Goliath, a mix of two things you see all the time.
Classes: 0.5/1 Featrogue Pouncebarian and Warblade are all bog common, Bloodstorm Blade and Master Thrower are seen less frequently and weren't expected for fighter.
Feats/Etc: 0.75/1 The emphasis on range is interesting, as is trying to use it with charging to accomplish a novel goal. The charge package itself is vanilla though.

Power: 3.75/5
Warblade again, Pouncebarian again, throw in some Rogue and decent-goodish thrown PRCs. Another high T4/low T3 sort of build, so good things are expected. Luckily, good things are delivered. You have a distinct combat style that you make effort to get going as soon as possible (I can't find the Knockback feat anywhere in your build though, you get seriously dinged for that here since your writeup seems to assume you have it and I don't see how you can do ranged bull rushes without it)

High Spot is useful for invisible things. You don't mention your maneuvers known anywhere I can find, which is a shame because they could help with your neglected defenses.

Elegance: 3.5/5
-You only have one dip (-0.5), and use favored class and weaving to avoid MC penalties the entire way through.
-This build will score better with me using the first HR adjustment, dropping Knowledge Devotion in exchange for not using LA buyoff. Done.
-You really stretch the RAW hard with your trick, but you at least have a reasonable legal argument for a DM, so only (-0.5) for that instead of something more severe.
-You get maneuvers and don't document what they even are anywhere that I could find, (-0.5)

UoSI: 4.81/5
-FBFs (I count 15) 1.5
-Combat oriented feat like abilities: MoM, Pounce, Uncanny, IUD, Thundrous Throw, Lightning Ricochet, 3 great thrown weapon tricks, evasion, uncanny bravery 1.1
-Battle clarity/Spell sense/favored enemy/grab bag of piddly stuff: 0.05
-Combat Skills 0.2
-BaB 18 0.8
-Fort 13 0.35
-HP I think 162, -0.19 (I guess I had high expectations for HP)

Hopefully we can get a second opinion before the deadline and I won't be a judge on an island.

[dysprosium]

Thanks for judging DeAnno!

[relytdan]

so just 1 judge then? and will there be an extension on disputes due to short time from challenge end & when judge put up scores and the fact that the chairman is rarely on over the weekends?

[dysprosium]

It is true that I am not on the weekends much and real life is to blame for that.

My mailbox has some questions for you DeAnno:


@Deanno
Darren

Your maneuvers however confuse me for a lot of reasons. First you only go to Warblade 6; this should mean your highest level maneuvers are 3rd level, but instead of you lots of higher level maneuvers. You could have gotten these by delaying Warblade levels (Warblade 6 @ level 18 could get 6th level maneuvers) but your table has all the Warblade levels first. Most of the maneuvers that would've actually been useful for you that you picked are illegal ones too, so you don't get much credit for these at all.

**Power - Manuevers are based on TOB pg39 - MULTICLASS CHARACTERS - Prestige classes work a little differently. In most cases, you
add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level -The build clearly falls within the 17th Initator level thus is allowed legal use of 9th level maneuvers.

** UoSI -at 13th Feat -Diehard-
can you explain this please? - Combat Skills 0.1
can you explain why - Rage 2/day & Frenzy 3/day rates a negative score?- -0.15 (you got more than this penalty as bonus in your power score) -0.2 (ditto)

-Rage: Each affected creature gains a +2 morale bonus to Strength and Constitution, and a +1 morale bonus on Will saves, and a –2 penalty to AC. The effect is otherwise identical with a barbarian’s rage except that the subjects aren’t fatigued at the end of the rage.

-frenzy: While frenzied, she gains a +6 bonus to Strength and, if she makes a full attack action, gains a single extra attack each round at her highest bonus. (This latter effect is not cumulative with haste or other effects that grant additional attacks.) However, she also takes a —4 penalty to Armor Class and takes 2 points of nonlethal damage per round. A frenzy lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the frenzied berserker's Constitution modifier. To end the frenzy before its duration expires, the character may attempt a DC 20 Will save once per round as a free action. Success ends the frenzy immediately; failure means it continues. The effects of frenzy stack with those from any rage ability the character may have.



@Deanno
Hankaru Solo

Power Samurai 20 is almost certainly worse than even Fighter 20
* You are looking at the OA-Samurai and not the Complete Warrior Samurai? these are 2 different Samurai and the build is Clear in it's intent as an OA-Samurai


As a general note, this judging struck me as more superficial than thorough. Elegance penalties seem to be formulaic. Power score is based on Tier ranking, with Tier 3 builds scoring better than those close to Tier 5 (the Secret Ingredient); this despite the Chairman stating that "achieving much higher power than the Secret Ingredient is capable of is overkill and should be marked accordingly." Perhaps the judging was rushed due to time pressures.


I would've liked to see some numbers, or at least some discussion, about what Chesty can do with a ranged or melee full attack. I feel like in splitting himself between both styles he spread himself too thin, and didn't assemble the sort of BFC tricks or damage engines a fighter should be expected to. He can fight everywhere and in lots of ways, but none of them are that good. His lack of strong attack bonuses (due in part to low Str/Dex) doesn't help here either.
If you want some discussion of what Chesty can do, I'll supply that to make it easier to understand the capabilities without looking up and reading each individual feat and trick. But really, the build elements speak for themselves if you take adequate time for review; none of this is necessary.

Chesty Puller is a Marine. Marines are mobile infantry/light cavalry. They're first to fight, taking the attack to the enemy. Their job is not to stand around and get beaten on while beating on the enemy in turn ("beatstick"); that's for Army pukes. Marines adapt, improvise, and overcome. They're smart fighters who maneuver, attack, maneuver, and attack another way.

Chesty's got all the standard archery feats to let him attack at range (Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot). He can make 5 shots as a full-round action (AB-2/AB-2/AB-7/AB-12/AB-17; doubled to 10 by splitting), or 4 shots (AB-8/AB-8/AB-8/AB-8; doubled to 8 by splitting) as a standard action. All of these are based on Chesty's BAB, a full 20 out of 20.

Anytime there's an enemy in the vicinity of typical (not crystal clear) water Chesty can close the distance underwater (run while swimming, moving up to 160') to arrive at the surface (first round), make a full ranged attack (10 arrows), then sink (no action; just don't make any Swim check) below the water again (second round). On subsequent rounds Chesty can swim up to the surface as a move action, fire 8 arrows using Manyshot, and sink down again. Being under the water will provide concealment and protect Chesty from many types of counterattacks.

If an enemy spellcaster is on the ground they can use Wind Wall to deflect ranged attacks. But Chesty is smart enough (INT 14) to know that this spell has no roof, and his Flyby Attack feat and good maneuverability (Improved Flight) lets him fly above the enemy, hover and fire 8 arrows as a standard action, and then fly away. Favored enemy (arcanists) adds +6 damage to every arrow. Concealment from the debris kicked up by the spell will foil the spellcaster's targeting, but Chesty's Improved Precise Shot lets him ignore that. Using the right mundane ammunition (arrows with adamantine heads) will let Chesty take down a 20th level caster's Stoneskin spell in approximately 1 round.

If an enemy is flying, Improved Flyby Attack lets Chesty fly to them, make a single two-handed attack with a very large 2:1 Power Attack adjustment, and then fly away outside of Close spell range without provoking any AoOs. Alternatively, Chesty can use his good maneuverability to hover adjacent to the enemy, relying on very good (47 with Dodge) AC to let him withstand most attacks. Should the enemy think they'll be safe by making a 5' adjustment before taking a provoking action (like casting a spell), Chesty's 10' reach will turn that into a painful lesson for them.

On the ground Chesty can jump (+42 skill modifier) over difficult terrain to charge at an enemy, attack two-handed with enormous Power Attack adjustment because he doesn't have to try to make iterative attacks hit, then move 10' away with Extreme Leap trick. Moving 20' distant from the enemy (10' Extreme Leap plus 10' reach) will likely make a full counterattack impossible for them. Even though skill tricks are 1/encounter, Chesty has another trick to charge across difficult terrain: Nimble Charge. And if the enemy tries to be clever and put an obstacle between them and Chesty, the Twisted Charge trick lets Chesty make a turn during his charge instead of needing a straight line.

About Charging and Pounce:
Being dependent on charging to attack enemies is inherently risky: poor surface conditions, obstacles, and obstructed sightlines all cause problems. As noted above, Chesty has multiple ways to make charging more reliable. Chesty doesn't have pounce, and that's a considered choice. First, pounce is very difficult to obtain for a Fighter, so it would rightly merit an Ingredient penalty. Second, it's completely useless if you can't charge in the first place, so it requires an investment in compensating tactics like Chesty's (jumping and multiple skill tricks) anyway; then iterative attacks make Power Attack penalties problematic and force an investment in Shock Trooper to use Heedless Charge, which in turn makes the character vulnerable (very low AC) to AoOs and counterattacks. Third and final, if the target has high AC, iterative attacks will tend to miss anyway.) Single two-handed attacks with high Power Attack adjustment are more reliable and sticking to this approach frees up character resources for more mobile combat capabilities, like Flyby Attack/Improved Flyby Attack. Mostly avoiding full counterattacks while meting out good damage consistently means Chesty can fight longer without risk of needing to withdraw or interrupt a party spellcaster for emergency (in-combat) healing.

On his horse across clear terrain Chesty can charge with a lance, dealing double damage. If there's no clear path for a mounted charge then the heavy warhorse can move up and be directed (free action Ride check) to attack on its own while Chesty auto-succeeds on a fast dismount and uses the Dismount Attack trick to gain the benefits of charging anyway. Again, with just one attack a huge 2:1 Power Attack offset will work. If there's no charge target available Chesty can instead make a full ranged attack (10 arrows) with Mounted Archery while his horse moves to close.

In underwater combat Chesty would dominate most enemies. He moves, breathes, and attacks without any hindrances, and his superior low-light vision is advantageous in the murky depths.

Chesty's got other capabilities that might come in handy in some combat situations. If he's disarmed he's got claws so he'll always threaten within his 10' reach, and can use those claws in a dive attack (which works like a charge though it's not and thus can't benefit from charge enhancements). He's got Improved Sunder, which helps deal with troublesome items like enemy spell component pouches and holy symbols. Should he be knocked down he's got the Nimble Stand trick to get up from prone without provoking AoOs.


There are a variety of handy skills, but I wouldn't have minded more Spot to use Point it Out with.
Chesty's 11 Spot ranks conform to the maximum allowed for a Fighter 20 (11½). (In fact, I definitely expected an Elegance penalty for any non-Fighter skill pushed above that level.) However, he's got several other Spot benefits:

+2 elf racial bonus
+2 Draconic template racial bonus
+6 favored enemy bonus vs. arcanists
+2 favored enemy bonus vs. undead
+2 favored enemy bonus vs. constructs
+2 WIS bonus
... for a Spot modifier of +17 (minimum) to +23 (vs. arcanists), all while sticking within the SI limits.

You also get credit for the build dealing with things a Fighter would normally need items to deal with to do his job properly (Vision, Mobility, Defenses, that style of thing.)
Of these items mentioned in your judging criteria post, the Power score reflects credit for mobility (land/sea/air), but I saw nothing for vision (superior low-light vision), defenses (evasion, AC bonuses), 10' reach, and 3 favored enemies ("bane" lite) -- all without gear.


3 dips in PRCs (-1.5)
-2 Chaos Shuffles (-2)
-LA Buyoff (-0.5)
Chaos Shuffles may be cheesy, but they're RAW legal. So why are they penalized heavily when obviously broken build elements aren't? Examples (all from Thor Odinson build):

Exotic Weapon Proficiency illegal with BAB +0
Weapon Focus illegal without proficiency
Weapon Specialization requires 4 levels of Fighter, the disallowed Secret Ingredient
Uncanny Bravery ACF only available with 8 levels of Rogue, not 4
Spell Sense not a legal ACF without Knowledge (arcana) rank
Crushing Strike not a legal Warblade 5 bonus feat choice (Tome of Battle 23)

You're penalizing 1-level and 2-level dips the same, which seems odd. Why does all but the last level of a 3-level prestige class (like Battle Trickster) merit such a steep penalty? Also, LA buyoff is explicitly allowed as of this competition.

Each build is allotted exactly 200,000 EXP. This is roughly 10,000 EXP more than necessary to get to 20th level. Please take note of this when planning your character for circumstances like LA Buyoff, Item Crafting, Magic Use, Multiclassing EXP Penalties, etc. Please note that this is a change from past rounds that dysprosium has been the Chairman.
Chesty Puller was submitted for this ZS round before your judging criteria were posted, so there's not much I can do here except ask questions like these above. :smallsigh:


-Resistance to healing (makes you a worse beatstick, [clarification] draining more party resources on healing you and working against the goal of long adventuring days) -0.2
That penalty seems unreasonable, since Chesty's not designed to be a "beatstick" (which is only one of the possible roles a Fighter can play). Built for maneuverability and with high AC and multiple ways (archery, Flyby Attack) to deal damage while avoiding enemy melee full attacks, Chesty shouldn't need much healing. (Also, Chesty's got both non-consumable gear and a class ability, letting him self-heal for 51 + 3x2d8 HP daily. He's already ahead of the game in terms of "draining party resources".)




Thor Odinson: 14.56
Innovation: 2.5/5
Fluff/Feel: 0.25/1 You don't have any "fluff" persay, but the section on what makes a Fighter was interesting to read, and the whole thing feels right.
Race: 0/1 A Dragonborn Goliath, a mix of two things you see all the time.
Classes: 0.5/1 Featrogue Pouncebarian and Warblade are all bog common, Bloodstorm Blade and Master Thrower are seen less frequently and weren't expected for fighter.
Feats/Etc: 0.75/1 The emphasis on range is interesting, as is trying to use it with charging to accomplish a novel goal. The charge package itself is vanilla though.

Power: 3.75/5
Warblade again, Pouncebarian again, throw in some Rogue and decent-goodish thrown PRCs. Another high T4/low T3 sort of build, so good things are expected. Luckily, good things are delivered. You have a distinct combat style that you make effort to get going as soon as possible (I can't find the Knockback feat anywhere in your build though, you get seriously dinged for that here since your writeup seems to assume you have it and I don't see how you can do ranged bull rushes without it)

High Spot is useful for invisible things. You don't mention your maneuvers known anywhere I can find, which is a shame because they could help with your neglected defenses.

Elegance: 3.5/5
-You only have one dip (-0.5), and use favored class and weaving to avoid MC penalties the entire way through.
-This build will score better with me using the first HR adjustment, dropping Knowledge Devotion in exchange for not using LA buyoff. Done.
-You really stretch the RAW hard with your trick, but you at least have a reasonable legal argument for a DM, so only (-0.5) for that instead of something more severe.
-You get maneuvers and don't document what they even are anywhere that I could find, (-0.5)

UoSI: 4.81/5
-FBFs (I count 15) 1.5
-Combat oriented feat like abilities: MoM, Pounce, Uncanny, IUD, Thundrous Throw, Lightning Ricochet, 3 great thrown weapon tricks, evasion, uncanny bravery 1.1
-Battle clarity/Spell sense/favored enemy/grab bag of piddly stuff: 0.05
-Combat Skills 0.2
-BaB 18 0.8
-Fort 13 0.35
-HP I think 162, -0.19 (I guess I had high expectations for HP)

My Disputes
Innovation
Fluff: I won't debate this; I had some computer problems the day of submission and all of my fluff was only half-done and disjointed. Other important things got left out as well. While this serves to explain the lack of fluff, it does not excuse it, nor the other things with this issue later on in the build.

Race: No debate. It's boring, but effective. It's not even wholly necessary; human would probably have worked better. Still, what's done is done.

Classes: No debate. You've perfectly summed up the "innovative" class choices I made.

Feats: No debate. Once again, you're right on the mark: ranged ubercharger is as interesting as this build gets.

Power
-The only note here is, once again, a mention of my problems that night: Knockback was in my build cheat sheet. as the balance to a flaw. In the fluff, the idea was becoming a Dragonborn made him even clumsier than normal (Shaky flaw) but also strengthened his throwing arm. Unfortunately, neither the flaw nor the feat made it into the final draft sent, even though I meant for them to. Still, even without the irresistible Bull Rush trick, Thor still pumps out tons of damage. If you wish to count the build as having them or not, I'm happy with it.

-The maneuvers would help my defenses, but they fell victim to my last minute issues. What really helps my defenses is a maxed out UMD.

Elegance
If you do count them, make sure to put a penalty here.
-I've had issues with DMs enforcing multiclass penalties; I always try and keep my builds free of them (barring gestalt/tristalt).

-As I recall, I listed the HR options in the order I of least to most strict; the first one was expected to be used most often in a real game. I included the LA simply because it allowed more power per the rules of the contest.

-Maneuvers: see note in Power section. Regardless, no debate.

-There's to questionable RAW things in the build: melee attack rolls for ranged attacks, and thrown weapons still technically being melee weapons, since they can be used in melee. I'll also bring up a common point in my arguments for powerful mundane RAW and RAI: it's a mundane build. No matter how thin the foundation of the RAW/RAI a mundane mechanic is based on, it's not overpowered...at least, not in comparison to any class capable of magic. Thor's maxed out UMD skill is more game-breaking than applying Melee Weapon Mastery to his melee weapon while it's being thrown.

UoSI
-Even without Knockback present, I count 16 feats. I understand counting off in Elegance for LA buyoff, but the contest allows it; not counting a feat I took because of that doesn't quite seem fair. Still, it's only a tenth of a point...

-Other stuff: I aim to please. Just one note...

-At 19th level, it's 164 HP. At 20th, it's 173. Don't know how much this changes your calculations.


Thanks for your comments and judgements. Hopefully, I'll build better next time I compete.

[DeAnno]

Darren: I have no idea what you're talking about with regard to maneuvers. Generally only Initiator PRCs increase maneuver level at full rate, and IIRC even those don't allow maneuver swapping like even levels in the base classes do.

For combat skills I awarded 0, 0.1, or 0.2. Yours were middle of the road; you didn't have quite as much in combat usefulness as some other builds but you had a decent amount.

You lose some points for Rage and Frenzy because they are important parts of your build (this was reflected in a higher power score) that don't function through the whole day. With no Rage or Frenzy your power score is probably 1 or more lower, but you lose "partial credit" for them having limited uses here.

No changes

Hankaru Solo: I am aware of which Samurai you used and aside from Iaijutsu Focus maybe (which you didn't even take), OA Samurai 20 is worse than Fighter because it gets less feats. This meant you didn't have a high bar for your Power score, but your lack of ... much of any direction in your feats meant that it couldn't really help you.

No changes

Chesty Puller: I dont care about your gear, and yet you love to post a bunch of summaries of things including all your gear. From my experience, IC competitions are not all about what gear you can shop for. A 5 attack ranged full attack is nothing to brag about with no real damage boosts attached to it. Your AC is mostly gear dependent (as AC generally is). On the melee side, one hit from a THW with power attack and no real means to buff your to hit isn't doing very much.

All the speed and mobility did come from your build, and you got a lot of credit for that, but the lack of impact was your problem here. One thing I did notice from your summary was you have some investment in the Lance mounted charging trick for double damage, which is a reasonable help with that and merits +0.25 to your power score.

I don't follow the school of rigid penalties for things like more Spot ranks than a fighter. More on that at the end.

Chaos Shuffles might as well be flaws. I'll examine the elements of Odinson you pointed out in his section.

Resistance to healing is really a horrible thing, and again I'm not very interested in your gear, and 1 hp isn't that big a deal.

Change: +0.25 to Power

Thor Odinson: Lets do the bad news first and go through the things Chesty said

1)Exotic Weapon Proficiency illegal with BAB +0
He's got you there. To make it work you would need to switch its position with Power Attack at level 3 so I'll assign a -0.5 error for bad presentation.
3)Weapon Specialization requires 4 levels of Fighter, the disallowed Secret Ingredient
Thor has 4 levels in Feat-Rogue, which gives a bonus Feat progression as Fighter. I'd assumed this would work for the prerequisite, but upon a close reading of the rules I don't think it does. Similar to the thrown full attack, I think its a debatable issue and will assign -0.25 elegance and -0.1 for loss of a FBF.
4) Uncanny Bravery. I would guess the idea is Uncanny Dodge automatically becomes IUD due to having Uncanny Dodge from Barb already, and then IUD is traded. By RAW this doesn't work, but by RAI its in a similar situation as the previous case so I will go with the less harsh penalty of -0.25 and -0.1
5) Spell Sense is Illegal. Yeah, there's no excuse I can see here, I'll throw on the -0.5
6) One of the House Rule Adjustments mentioned not taking LA Buyoff, Not taking Knowledge Devotion, and taking Crushing Strike at 18. I judged this to be a far superior setup due to me knocking LA Buyoff and so Crushing Strike is at 18 and not a technical problem with the build as judged. However -0.25 elegance for the table error is probably appropriate, even though it wasn't for the version directly judged.

I make that a total of -1.75 elegance and -0.2 UoSI

Thor's own disputes: I didn't subtract for LA Buyoff, but I judged your build based on the first HR Adjustment. This means you had less HP and 15 feats.

I make your HP as 3d6 (rogue) + 1d8 (goliath rogue) + 4d12 (bloodstorm blade) + 4d12 (warblade) + 5d8 (master thrower) + 2d12 (barb). Averaged, that's 102.5. First HD is maximized, which is +2.5 due to it being a d6 so thats 105. 19 HD times +3 con is 57 extra hp. 105 plus 57 is 162.

In general, taking that little bit of extra time to edit things over and make sure they work can be a big deal, and while I liked your build a lot the RAW issues plaguing it really put a damper on the dish.

So Revised Scores, as of now, would be

Chesty Puller: 12.86

Thor Odinson: 12.61

General notes:
1) If anyone else sees anything wrong in other builds that I didn't catch, feel free to comment. As complicated as these builds are there is plenty to miss, and I think if one contestant is poking at other builds it is only fair for all of them to get to do it.

2) I'm not taking off for things like exceeding the exact capabilities of a Fighter (ie too many Spot ranks) because I don't see it as really in the spirit of the competition. I was concerned with the presented being effective builds that did things in a Fighter-like way, with lots of recognizable Fighter elements, which could succeed at the jobs a Fighter is expected to do.

3) I actually found this really difficult to judge, and I'm not surprised there was a lot of pushback. If the chair disagrees with me significantly I would be open to finding a new solution, up to and including things like chucking my scores if my philosophy is just incompatible. I do think the competition would suffer a lot to have only one judge and think that is something that should be addressed either way.

[dysprosium]

This round will be over soon. Sad that it ends up being a one judge affair but as I've said before, real life is sometimes a cruel mistress.

Any speculation on the next round's ingredient? I got it picked and I think it will be an interesting one . . .

[DeAnno]

Two things have been indicated to me:

1) The same affordance that exists for Warblades in taking Fighter only feats also exists for Bloodstorm Blades, thus Weapon Specialization is legal on Thor Odinson. This results in an adjustment of +0.35.

2) I have been instructed not to penalize in any way for LA buyoff. This has a simple result of +0.5 for Chesty. Thor is a more complex case since the build was originally scored without buyoff, but the following changes would occur:

Higher BaB: +0.1
Increased HP: d12+3=9.5: +0.05
Knowledge Devotion Replaces Crushing Strike at 18: No change
Crushing Strike is now a fully present and illegal build element at 20: No FBF credit for it, and the penalty would increase from a "harmless" table error (-0.25) to a non-cascading illegal build element (-0.5)
Due to being illegal Crushing Strike would not result in an increase to the Power Score.

Therefore the net change of such an adjustment would be -0.1, so I will still score the non-LA buyoff version and this change will not be applied to Thor Odinson.

"Current" Standings:

Chesty Puller: 13.36

Thor Odinson: 12.96

Once again, I apologize for any confusion.

PS: For those wondering why Illegal Maneuvers on Darren merited a penalty of -1, they constituted a related collection of illegal build elements instead of a single one. By the way, if I am mistaken somehow and anyone is aware of a reason why those maneuvers are not illegal I would much appreciate the egg being removed from my face. :smalltongue:

[WhamBamSam]

This round will be over soon. Sad that it ends up being a one judge affair but as I've said before, real life is sometimes a cruel mistress.

Any speculation on the next round's ingredient? I got it picked and I think it will be an interesting one . . .Spellthief? Dungeon Lord? Incanatrix? Scarlet Corsair? Factotum? Psionic Weapon Master? Hidecarved Dragon? Warlock?

EDIT: Warlock's been done apparently. I should look at that round and see how they did it. It's a pretty unique class which might be a bit of a challenge.

[dysprosium]

Those are some good suggestions. Lots of people want Spellthief it seems . . .

I'm going to call it here folks.



Place
Build
Saucier
Score


1st
Chesty Puller
Curmudgeon
13.36


2nd
Thor Odinson
AvatarVecna
12.96


3rd
Darren
relytdan
12.5


4th
Hankaru Solo
relytdan
12.23



One of the closest group of scores on record. Thanks to DeAnno for judging!

Congratulations to our Sauciers!

The new round will start soon. Let's see how long it takes to build it.

[AvatarVecna]

Oh well. On the one hand, 2nd place isn't so bad. On the other hand, it's out of four entries. Well, it did quite well originally, but the best build won. Congrats, Curmudgeon.

And hey! Everyone who entered also placed!

[Curmudgeon]

I guess this ended up being a cautionary tale about entering the contest too early, since I submitted Chesty Puller before DeAnno posted his judging criteria. I was gobsmacked about some of those. For instance, some legal build choices (Dark Chaos Shuffles) were penalized twice as harshly as illegal elements (feats the character doesn't qualify for). Being hit with the same penalty for all but the last level of a 3-level prestige class as for a 1-level dip in a 20-level class came as a surprise, too.


Chesty Puller: I dont care about your gear ...
OK, this simply has to be wrong when the Secret Ingredient is a Fighter. Having Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, and Mobile Archery all mean nothing if the character doesn't have a ranged weapon; adding a longbow to the character's gear list is important. Weapon Focus (longsword) doesn't create a longsword; you have to buy that, too. Mounted Combat doesn't create either a worhorse or lance for the character; again, those need to be part of their equipment list. A Fighter with no gear simply isn't a viable character. Even Vow of Poverty allows for basic weaponry. If the Secret Ingredient is a Fighter, you've got to take into consideration the gear they need to get the fighting job done. Chesty Puller without his bow, and Thor Odinson without his hammer, just aren't good characters.

Do you think a Wizard with no spells other than the minimum (2/level) in their spellbook, no spell component pouch, and no Eschew Materials feat, should be judged comparable to one with hundreds of spells and extra component pouches for backup? Character equipment needs to be considered in relation to its importance to the class (the Secret Ingredient). This round's SI was one where gear was of high importance. Just as making smart choices with other limited resources like levels, feats, and skills matter to the build, smart choices with a limited equipment budget matter greatly for a gear-dependent SI.

[AvatarVecna]

I guess this ended up being a cautionary tale about entering the contest too early, since I submitted Chesty Puller before DeAnno posted his judging criteria. I was gobsmacked about some of those. For instance, some legal build choices (Dark Chaos Shuffles) were penalized twice as harshly as illegal elements (feats the character doesn't qualify for). Being hit with the same penalty for all but the last level of a 3-level prestige class as for a 1-level dip in a 20-level class came as a surprise, too.


OK, this simply has to be wrong when the Secret Ingredient is a Fighter. Having Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, and Mobile Archery all mean nothing if the character doesn't have a ranged weapon; adding a longbow to the character's gear list is important. Weapon Focus (longsword) doesn't create a longsword; you have to buy that, too. Mounted Combat doesn't create either a worhorse or lance for the character; again, those need to be part of their equipment list. A Fighter with no gear simply isn't a viable character. Even Vow of Poverty allows for basic weaponry. If the Secret Ingredient is a Fighter, you've got to take into consideration the gear they need to get the fighting job done. Chesty Puller without his bow, and Thor Odinson without his hammer, just aren't good characters.

Do you think a Wizard with no spells other than the minimum (2/level) in their spellbook, no spell component pouch, and no Eschew Materials feat, should be judged comparable to one with hundreds of spells and extra component pouches for backup? Character equipment needs to be considered in relation to its importance to the class (the Secret Ingredient). This round's SI was one where gear was of high importance. Just as making smart choices with other limited resources like levels, feats, and skills matter to the build, smart choices with a limited equipment budget matter greatly for a gear-dependent SI.

Knowing basic gear is necessary for a class like this, and almost certainly for the current challenge (Artificer). But a full gear write-up? The only reason to include ALL of your gear is if you're using it as a crutch to make your character competent enough to actually compete.

Also, while I was really impressed with your build, the point about Chaos Shuffles reminded me of an issue I had with it; not a mechanical one, but a fluff one.

Chesty is a Champion of Corellon Larethian, but CL isn't an Eberron deity. This is a pretty small problem, easily solved by re-fluffing stuff, but it brought to mind another one: if someone was trying to play Chesty in an actual Eberron game, they would have a tough time completing the build, due to the Chaos Shuffling. In a world where only a handful of people are any higher than...10th level or so, and all of them are quite well-known, finding a caster who is both able and willing to cast multiple 8th level spells for someone else's benefit.

Not to mention that this person would need spells that are, by design, completely opposite; it would certainly be an interesting character who chose to be capable of both granting and taking away the blessing/curse of demonkind.

Like I said, not a mechanical issue, just a potential RP issue. I like the character.

[DeAnno]

I personally think the -1 for Flaws that is "canon" is too harsh a penalty (I would probably go -0.5 for Flaws and -0 for the first Trait). However, it is a CANON penalty, one I have no way to escape from assigning. I think a DCS is more or less equivalent to a flaw, and deserves the same penalty, so I decided to use -1 when I made the rubric.

As for full gear writeups, it was not made clear to all contestants at the start of the contest that a full magic gear writeup was needed. Nobody even so much as suggested it until after the big reveal. In the past, IC competitions seem to not focus at all on distributing one's gear budget. Thus I thought it would be completely unfair to score one build using its magic gear and the others without similar writeups to help. Actually, I think that a statement from the chair about how much detail in gear is suggested would be very helpful for this competition. Also, statements from the chair about gear choices that are "unfair" like magical trap abuse and similar might go a long way to streamlining things.

You could have always resubmitted a correction, though I recognize that escalates things into taking even more time.

So in summary
1) I advocate reducing the flaw penalty or stripping its specific mention from the intro
2) The chair should say some stuff about how he wants magic gear to be presented

[AvatarVecna]

I personally think the -1 for Flaws that is "canon" is too harsh a penalty (I would probably go -0.5 for Flaws and -0 for the first Trait). However, it is a CANON penalty, one I have no way to escape from assigning. I think a DCS is more or less equivalent to a flaw, and deserves the same penalty, so I decided to use -1 when I made the rubric.

As for full gear writeups, it was not made clear to all contestants at the start of the contest that a full magic gear writeup was needed. Nobody even so much as suggested it until after the big reveal. In the past, IC competitions seem to not focus at all on distributing one's gear budget. Thus I thought it would be completely unfair to score one build using its magic gear and the others without similar writeups to help. Actually, I think that a statement from the chair about how much detail in gear is suggested would be very helpful for this competition. Also, statements from the chair about gear choices that are "unfair" like magical trap abuse and similar might go a long way to streamlining things.

You could have always resubmitted a correction, though I recognize that escalates things into taking even more time.

So in summary
1) I advocate reducing the flaw penalty or stripping its specific mention from the intro
2) The chair should say some stuff about how he wants magic gear to be presented

Flaws aren't quite equal to Dark Chaos Shuffle. Flaws give you an extra feat, while DCS replaces one. There's exceptions (using DCS to replace feats you didn't choose with the feats of your choice), but assigned bonus feats aren't as common as bonus feats where you make a choice. Flaws are also easier to get: the rules that include them say any lvl 1 character can get 2; conversely, DCS requires two separate 8th lvl spells be cast on you by a high level spellcaster who doesn't screw you over.

That said, considering how feat-starved most builds are, one or two feats usually doesn't make too much difference...at least, not enough to warrant a -1 Elegance per Flaw. IMHO, it should be more like -0.5 or -0.75, but that's just me.

[Coventry]

Now that the fighter competition is over, I have a question for the officiating staff regarding an idea that I had, but was not able to follow through on.

To me, the major defining criteria for the fighter class is full BAB, heavy armor, martial weapons, lots of "fighter bonus feats" and access to weapon specialization.

I had an idea about getting all of those feats, but it required using the "creating other bloodlines" option on page 31 of Unearthed Arcana. After reviewing the lists of major bloodlines earlier in the chapter, a number of the "Special" slots are taken up by feats. There happen to be ten "Special" entries on the list, which is only one short of the 11 that a fighter gets.

As far as the other features of a fighter,

Heavy Armor is a problem solved by expending one feat.
17 levels of Warblade will average out to 116 hit points before constitution, whereas 20 levels of fighter is 114.5 before constitution
Weapon Specialization comes late, but it does come
BAB is +17, good enough for four iterative attacks.


My question is: how would the use of a home-brew major bloodline have been ranked?

I was trying to write up a suitable explanation, such as being directly descended from legendary warriors, such as the Spartoi that sprang forth from the dragon's teeth of Greek history.


The true horror of using that bloodline would be if it was used along with the Rogue "Martial Training" option from UA page 58 (gain feats as fighter, lose sneak attack). This character would have a BAB problem (only +12 at level 20), but a wealth of feats to play with.

[Curmudgeon]

My question is: how would the use of a home-brew major bloodline have been ranked?
That's covered in the rules as follows:
Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.
Custom bloodlines are included in "any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above", so any judge is free to declare such an entry illegal and award a total score of 0. (Judges are allowed to use their own judgment, so this isn't guaranteed.)