Monk Archetypes/Concepts. Monks don't suck!

[Dimcair]

I had a look at the very comprehensive guide by Revel (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7b8EGfd1Lu3MTNiMjIyMjUtOWVkYS00ODEyLTkwMTAtMTI3Y jk1MTFkNDFk/edit?hl=en_US).


Can anyone share their experiences with certain monk builds and combinations?

There are so many that I am curious for some insider information =). You don't have to be very specific as long as you name the archetype and or combinations + your experiences with them.



Books prefered: Core, APG, UM, UC; no dipping.

[Spore]

Made a Ki Mystic/Qigong Monk. Now he doesn't completely suck but if it weren't for my climb speed we would've never won against that Lich.

[Snowbluff]

no dipping.

Ok, good. The best monk build is Cleric19/Monk1 Archer with some spells poached through Samsaran.

[PsyBomb]

Zen Archer/ Quinggong is awesome for ranged physical.

Martial Artist... Not so much

[Psyren]

Assuming Qinggong in all cases to swap out the more dull class features:

+Hungry Ghost with a few easy Vows for free ki (Chains, Truth and Silence are fun for roleplaying and give an extra 13 ki points combined) can be a passable SLA-based gish.

+ZA has been mentioned.

+Tetori works well as a grappler.

+Maneuver Master works well with Dirty Trick to reliably debuff one or more enemies for multiple rounds, and cause them to use up their standard action clearing it. For tripping however you are better off with something else.

+Master of Many Styles gives you some nice options for free, e.g. Snake Style makes your unarmed strike piercing and gives you substantial touch AC.

[Dimcair]

I am taking from this that the melee role is still a bit underwhelming. Maybe play it in a low-op group then, stick with zen archer and call it a day.

Thank you.

[elliott20]

Where is Giacomo when you need him? That guy has always been the resident monk builder / advocate.

Personally, I would rather just play a swordsage with improved unarmed attack variant. Far more straight forward and far more fun.

[Psyren]

I am taking from this that the melee role is still a bit underwhelming. Maybe play it in a low-op group then, stick with zen archer and call it a day.

Eh, they're no Barbarian but you can still build one that can punch out a Balor. The Tetori can even grapple it and keep it from escaping.


Where is Giacomo when you need him? That guy has always been the resident monk builder / advocate.

B&.


Personally, I would rather just play a swordsage with improved unarmed attack variant. Far more straight forward and far more fun.

If your PF game allows ToB then yeah, that's going to be the better option.

[elliott20]

B&.

What really? Why? Or do I really want to know?

[eggynack]

It looks like it's been roughly four years since he was banned. It's not like he was all that good at monk optimization though. I think Captnq is one of the more ardent supporters of monks nowadays, though most of that argument does rely on unabashed cheesery. I mean, seriously, the man (Sir Giacomo, not Captnq) argued that the major downfall of druids was that someone could cast dominate person on them, and force them to teach druidic.

[Snowbluff]

I mean, seriously, the man (Sir Giacomo, not Captnq) argued that the major downfall of druids was that someone could cast dominate person on them, and force them to teach druidic.

The druids. The ones with the good will progression and literally only needing wisdom and having the resistance spells on their list.

I recently spent a lot of time trying to race a wolverine over a mountain range, too.

[eggynack]

The druids. The ones with the good will progression and literally only needing wisdom and having the resistance spells on their list.
Well, that too. My big problem with it is that you just dominated a druid, and have him under your thrall for days, and the biggest thing you can conceive of doing with that is having him teach you druidic, thus stripping him of his powers? That's just insane. Really, at that point, the downside of falling for teaching druidic is actually a huge upside, because any other character in that situation would be either killed, or made the enemy's eternal servant of destruction. Y'know, sometimes I wish I could go back in time and argue in ancient threads, because looking at them just sitting there, with easy to destroy arguments, hurts my head a bit. It is pretty fun, by contrast, to look at threads I did post in, and be all, "Why isn't anyone saying this argument?" and then noticing that I made the same arguments then that I would now.

[Drelua]

I have a DEX-based Hungry Ghost Qinggong Monk going right now in a pretty high-op group at level 15, and he holds his own pretty well. The other PCs are a wizard, an oracle, and a magus, so they do outpace me in terms of damage, but my defence is quite a bit better than any of theirs. My AC ranges from 52 to 60 depending on what exactly I'm doing that round, and I think my worst save is higher than any of their best saves. Between that and the self-healing from Hungry Ghost, my character can basically only die to a really unlucky save. I've also got Snake Style for a lot of fun abilities like AoOs against anyone that misses me in melee, a better chance to confirm crits, and some help with touch attacks. I actually did get taken out by a colour spray once because I rolled the stone to flesh result and got about a 3 on my fort save, but there's really nothing you can do about rolls that unlucky.

My damage is theoretically pretty good with my agile amulet, but my attack modifier isn't great and I'm the only party member that really cares about full attacks, so it never turns out to be as good as it could be. I usually get a few useful buffs from some of the other characters, like a magic vestment from the oracle and a Greater Magic Fang from the staff-like wand using wizard, but I'm not really dependent on them. Overall, it's a really fun character to play, even if I don't usually contribute quite so much as I could with a more powerful class. At least I don't use up the party gold on healing!

[Psyren]

What really? Why? Or do I really want to know?

Even if I knew the specific catalyst, that's not something we can really discuss here, sorry.


Well, that too. My big problem with it is that you just dominated a druid, and have him under your thrall for days, and the biggest thing you can conceive of doing with that is having him teach you druidic, thus stripping him of his powers? That's just insane. Really, at that point, the downside of falling for teaching druidic is actually a huge upside, because any other character in that situation would be either killed, or made the enemy's eternal servant of destruction. Y'know, sometimes I wish I could go back in time and argue in ancient threads, because looking at them just sitting there, with easy to destroy arguments, hurts my head a bit. It is pretty fun, by contrast, to look at threads I did post in, and be all, "Why isn't anyone saying this argument?" and then noticing that I made the same arguments then that I would now.

I would argue that "do this thing that will make you lose all your powers and be easy prey" would count as "obviously self-destructive" too.


I actually did get taken out by a colour spray once because I rolled the stone to flesh result and got about a 3 on my fort save, but there's really nothing you can do about rolls that unlucky.

Did you mean Prismatic Spray here? I assume they beat your SR?

[Dimcair]

Where is Giacomo when you need him? That guy has always been the resident monk builder / advocate.

Personally, I would rather just play a swordsage with improved unarmed attack variant. Far more straight forward and far more fun.


The upcoming game will be core classes only. (Archetypes are fine though. 15 point buy)

And since there was some complaining that my Conjuration-Teleportation Wizard, prohibited divination and enchantment. Focuses on Control and Summoning Monsters is too OP, I thought I try a lower 'tier' for the next character, should my wizard die/decide to leave/get banned, to get less hated on.

[magwaaf]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/hungry-ghost-monk

that is your answer. they are f'ing awesome plain and simple. they just win

[Drelua]

Did you mean Prismatic Spray here? I assume they beat your SR?

Yeah, prismatic spray. Woops. I actually don't have SR thanks to Hungry Ghost. It was a trap at the end of the dungeon that I figured I could absorb, so everyone else hid while I opened the case. I would have absorbed it fine if I hadn't had such terrible luck.

[eggynack]

I would argue that "do this thing that will make you lose all your powers and be easy prey" would count as "obviously self-destructive" too.
Yeah, that is also a silly aspect of it. It is a rather silly argument overall, really.

[Feint's End]

I'm gonna repeat what others have said.

Generally for melee the best combination (for a flexible melee that is ... some Archetypes like Tetori are better at certain things) is Hungry Ghost Qinggong Monk. My suggestion is going on strength focus and using a Staff with powerattack. You essentially flurry (TWF) with a two handed weapon without any of the drawbacks so this makes a really solid basis for a fightertype. Between Bracers of Armor, Bark's Skin and Wis and Dex to AC your defenses will be ok too.

For Ranged Qinggong Zen Archer Monk is quite good (one of the best out of the box Archers in PF). Nothing really to add here. Grab the usual feats PB Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shot (one of them you get as a bonusfeat which is nice).

Both work quite well without adding other classes. Nothing compared to a meditant Psywar or Deadly Fist of course but still very workable.

[Dimcair]

May I ask a question that potentially has a very obvious answer?

What aspect of the Hungry Ghost monk is the selling point?

Or is it rather the fact that he does not lose any important class features as other archetypes do + his class features are OK in themselves?
Maybe I am missing something obviously good =)

[deuxhero]

Ability to gain ki on kills/criticals, which naturally combos with Qinggong's ki hungry nature.

[Snowbluff]

They can refresh their ki by critting. This means they can get more spells in a day.

[Feint's End]

They can refresh their ki by critting. This means they can get more spells in a day.

Pretty much this (also by reducing an enemy to less than 0 hp). In and of themselves they are ok but since Qinggong is pretty much reliant on Ki Points and you solve that problem with Hungry Ghost they work together extremely well. Essentially you can spam (as in rebuff / use) your abilities whenever you need them because most of the time there will be enough opportunities to refresh lost ki points.

[Psyren]

The health drain point is important too. If you crit once every round (not impossible on a crit-fishing build with all the attacks you get) you effectively have Fast Healing {your level}, and later that becomes {your level + Wis} thanks to the temp HP from Sipping Demon.

[Ssalarn]

Sensei with the Mantis Style feat chain and Touch of Serenity can make an excellent lockdown specialist who also serves as a decent party buffer.

Tetori is great and possibly the only competent grappler in the game.

Zen Archer is of course the class for competent archer characters.

What else is good....

There's a couple other archetypes that can make for decent characters, like the Sohei (great for mounted combat), the flowing monk (pretty conditional though), the maneuver master (lots of good potential here), and the Master of Many Styles (even this one is most commonly taken as a 2 level dip).

Season any and all of the above with Qinggong of course, to sift out any non-complimentary elements and get the most bang for your buck. As a general rule it's always good to get rid of SR if at all possible because it's utter dreck and more likely to harm than help in most situations.

[Psyren]

Ahh, I forgot Sohei - I love the initiative stuff and the weapon training, but the mount is pretty eh.

Weapon Adept can potentially be nice because it is lightweight and Perfect Strike works with maneuvers.



Tetori is great and possibly the only competent grappler in the game.

The only competent mundane one, surely - both Druids and Summoners can get quite beastly at it. (snerk)


As a general rule it's always good to get rid of SR if at all possible because it's utter dreck and more likely to harm than help in most situations.

I actually disagree - SR helps more often than it hurts. Most buffs and heals happen outside of combat where it doesn't get in the way, plus it also doesn't interfere with your own SLAs; instead, it provides a useful defense against some truly nasty attacks on top of your saves.

In addition, if you did lower it to accept a buff and got hit with something with a duration, you actually get a chance to throw off the effect when it comes back up next turn.

[deuxhero]

Sohei is best as a 1/2 level dip, as it lets you pick up Mounted Skirmisher early

[Ssalarn]

The only competent mundane one, surely - both Druids and Summoners can get quite beastly at it. (snerk)


Truth.




I actually disagree - SR helps more often than it hurts. Most buffs and heals happen outside of combat where it doesn't get in the way, plus it also doesn't interfere with your own SLAs; instead, it provides a useful defense against some truly nasty attacks on top of your saves.

In addition, if you did lower it to accept a buff and got hit with something with a duration, you actually get a chance to throw off the effect when it comes back up next turn


This is kind of an optimization and group cohesiveness thing; I think SR is way more likely to interfere with allies short duration buffs and emergency heals than it is to stop enemy spells, and the Monk's already formidable saves and various bonuses and immunities make the need for SR debatable. I will say that for a smart group with a decent level of system mastery, there is probably a way to make SR work for you more than it works against you.

[Dimcair]

Truth.

This is kind of an optimization and group cohesiveness thing; I think SR is way more likely to interfere with allies short duration buffs and emergency heals than it is to stop enemy spells, and the Monk's already formidable saves and various bonuses and immunities make the need for SR debatable. I will say that for a smart group with a decent level of system mastery, there is probably a way to make SR work for you more than it works against you.

I will make sure to ask the DM if he might houserule the SR issues with beneficial/harmful spells.

[elliott20]

huh, so there's a new core monk now in Pathfinder? I need to take a second look at pathfinder more seriously.

[Starbuck_II]

I would argue that "do this thing that will make you lose all your powers and be easy prey" would count as "obviously self-destructive" too.


Question if Druids teaching Druid makes them fall...then doesn't that make Druids very rare because only ex-Druids can teach Druid to new recruits...

[Psyren]

Question if Druids teaching Druid makes them fall...then doesn't that make Druids very rare because only ex-Druids can teach Druid to new recruits...

Since there are no prerequisites to becoming a druid, it's safe to assume they become Druids first and then learn the language, all during their first class level.

[Snowbluff]

Well, that too. My big problem with it is that you just dominated a druid, and have him under your thrall for days, and the biggest thing you can conceive of doing with that is having him teach you druidic, thus stripping him of his powers? That's just insane. Really, at that point, the downside of falling for teaching druidic is actually a huge upside, because any other character in that situation would be either killed, or made the enemy's eternal servant of destruction. Y'know, sometimes I wish I could go back in time and argue in ancient threads, because looking at them just sitting there, with easy to destroy arguments, hurts my head a bit. It is pretty fun, by contrast, to look at threads I did post in, and be all, "Why isn't anyone saying this argument?" and then noticing that I made the same arguments then that I would now.



I would argue that "do this thing that will make you lose all your powers and be easy prey" would count as "obviously self-destructive" too.
All of these. It's just awful.


The only competent mundane one, surely - both Druids and Summoners can get quite beastly at it. (snerk)

:smallamused:


I actually disagree - SR helps more often than it hurts. Most buffs and heals happen outside of combat where it doesn't get in the way, plus it also doesn't interfere with your own SLAs; instead, it provides a useful defense against some truly nasty attacks on top of your saves.

In addition, if you did lower it to accept a buff and got hit with something with a duration, you actually get a chance to throw off the effect when it comes back up next turn.
I think it's much more useful if you're the party caster or you are doing your own buffs. This is especially true if you recognize that casters are the greatest threat against you.

[BlackDragonKing]

Question if Druids teaching Druid makes them fall...then doesn't that make Druids very rare because only ex-Druids can teach Druid to new recruits...

I always assumed someone who became a Druid was divinely inspired by the entity/force they gain their spells from and learned druidic that way. You know, nature spirits and stuff.

For monks, Hungry Ghost/Quinggong does seem like an interesting build, along with master of many styles.

How good are Sohei Monks, and the Punishing Kick ability? They both sound pretty cool, but I might just be distracted by the prospect of flurrying with a glaive or something. Punishing Kick seems great for knocking things down without wasting three or more feats on Trip, and it has spacing utility, too, but is the saving throw a bit low against a lot of things? High fort saves aren't exactly rare.

[Ssalarn]

I always assumed someone who became a Druid was divinely inspired by the entity/force they gain their spells from and learned druidic that way. You know, nature spirits and stuff.

For monks, Hungry Ghost/Quinggong does seem like an interesting build, along with master of many styles.

How good are Sohei Monks, and the Punishing Kick ability? They both sound pretty cool, but I might just be distracted by the prospect of flurrying with a glaive or something. Punishing Kick seems great for knocking things down without wasting three or more feats on Trip, and it has spacing utility, too, but is the saving throw a bit low against a lot of things? High fort saves aren't exactly rare.

Sohei are nice because there's more open design space. They have martial weapon proficiencies, can flurry in light armor, and the can go all kung-fu mustang with any creature they use as a mount. There's also some room to just put out a metric assload of attacks since they can flurry with a bow and don't have the zen archer's restriction preventing them from using Rapid Shot or Manyshot while doing so. Given the feat intensity of archery though, you're probably better snagging Mounted Skirmisher right out of the gate with your bonus feat(s) and running around Flurrying from horseback. At 6th level you can perform a mounted Flurry with a lance, which is cool.

[Psyren]

Punishing Kick is pretty meh because if you could have gotten them to fail a fort, Stunning Fist would have been infinitely better.

It's okay for tripping things that have low fort/high CMD I guess. That combination tends to be rare though because low fort usually means low Str, and therefore CMD would be low too. Rogue- and mage-types would be the most likely.

[BlackDragonKing]

Punishing Kick is pretty meh because if you could have gotten them to fail a fort, Stunning Fist would have been infinitely better.

It's okay for tripping things that have low fort/high CMD I guess. That combination tends to be rare though because low fort usually means low Str, and therefore CMD would be low too. Rogue- and mage-types would be the most likely.

I thought that might've been the case. Rats.

What kinda Ki powers would a Hungry Ghost/Quingong benefit from most? It seems like it's got fewer options to trade out due to its class feature replacements, but Slow fall and High Jump for Scorching Ray and Barkskin, perhaps?

[ArqArturo]

Zen Archer/ Quinggong is awesome for ranged physical.

Martial Artist... Not so much

Martial Artist is when you want a monk that get a little angry sometimes (monk/barbarian).

[Donny_Green]

To kill a dominated Druid.

mark a spot on the ground near a tree line, tell the druid to stand on that exact spot and keep his/her full attention on the tree line for signs of attack... tell the druid to alert you at first sign of an enemy but only because it's more devious that way.

Now walk out of ear shot from the druid, and whisper to your party damage dealers, especially your rogue that it's Coup De Gra time.

said damage dealers just walk up behind, making sure to mask the sound their weapons being drawn, and good by Druid.

[Snowbluff]

"Stab it when it can't fight back" is an obvious one. Getting it to stop fighting back is the hard part.

[Psyren]

I thought that might've been the case. Rats.

What kinda Ki powers would a Hungry Ghost/Quingong benefit from most? It seems like it's got fewer options to trade out due to its class feature replacements, but Slow fall and High Jump for Scorching Ray and Barkskin, perhaps?

Those two for sure; Gaseous Form is also useful for crossing chasms, climbing, escaping grapples and slipping out of tight spaces/corners. True Strike combos well with Quicken SLA for when you need to land that combat maneuver and cant afford to miss. Cold Ice Strike is expensive, but adds a nice chunk of damage and does not provoke, so you can use it melee right before a full attack and potentially get all of that ki back.

More situational choices include Dragon's Breath (for swarms and objects, prior to CIS), Spit Venom (no-save blind for a round) and Shadow Walk (for self/group teleportation and/or planar travel, as well as kidnapping.)

[Teh_das]

I've always liked Tetori Monk with a 2 level dip in Cavalier. it seems odd, but the Order of the Penitent ability is absurd for a grappler. you can hog-tie an opponent without pinning it first, and if you have a high enough check, they can't break out with a natural 20. I made one when the DM forced me to play a kobold, and I hogtied a dragon. it was amusing, he wasn't amused.

[grarrrg]

I like Underfoot Adept (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/halfling/underfoot-adept-monk-halfling)
It's a Halfling only archetype, and Halflings really don't have much going for them in the Monk area.

I like it, not because it's good (it's really kinda not), but because of the crazy potential:

At 4th level, and every four levels thereafter, he acts as if he is one size larger for the purposes of determining the maximum size of creatures he can trip

So a 4th level Halfling counts as Medium (can Trip Large).
8th is Large (Trip Huge)
12th is Huge (Trip Gargantuan)
16th is Gargantuan (Trip Colossal)
20th is Colossal (Trip Colossal+)

So you have a Small-size creature that can go around Tarrasque Tipping (like Cow Tipping, but bigger).
Great Wrym Dragon giving you trouble? Flip it on its back.
Yeah.

[Dimcair]

I am at a point where I am trying to figure out what weapons to use.

Are there any monk weapons that justify picking up an extra proficiency for them?

The save bet seems to be the temple sword.

[Donny_Green]

Okay... this is a perfect board for just such a question.

How do you build the monk if

A: Your GM doesn't let you cross class without going through more trouble than you feel it's worth.

B: psionics are not allowed.

C: third party books are not allowed.. must be from wizard.

I've already thought up two "answers", and will laugh if those are the first two answers I get.

[Psyren]

My personal favorite is kusarigama - reach, trip, flurry, double and two damage types. My ninjas use this as well. The only downside is the low threat range.


Okay... this is a perfect board for just such a question.

How do you build the monk if

A: Your GM doesn't let you cross class without going through more trouble than you feel it's worth.

B: psionics are not allowed.

C: third party books are not allowed.. must be from wizard.

I've already thought up two "answers", and will laugh if those are the first two answers I get.

Most of the builds listed above use straight monk with no 3rd-party (e.g. anything + Qinggong.)

[Dimcair]

Okay... this is a perfect board for just such a question.

How do you build the monk if

A: Your GM doesn't let you cross class without going through more trouble than you feel it's worth.

B: psionics are not allowed.

C: third party books are not allowed.. must be from wizard.

I've already thought up two "answers", and will laugh if those are the first two answers I get.


This might get confusing as this is a pathfinder thread and I assume you are asking a D&D (WotC) question?

[Donny_Green]

This might get confusing as this is a pathfinder thread and I assume you are asking a D&D (WotC) question?

Pardon me, my fault... I got caught up in all the good info and didn't remember it's a pathfinder thread.

So if I may ask a more appropriate question.

Were would the playground rate the pathfinder monk compared to the 3.5 monk? Better, worse or about the same?

[Pinkie Pyro]

Martial monk.

with distant shot and epic grappling, you can just throw enemies into the sun at level 2.

[Dimcair]

My personal favorite is kusarigama - reach, trip, flurry, double and two damage types. My ninjas use this as well. The only downside is the low threat range.




My anything is going to be hungry ghost monk for now, that is why a low threat range bothers me a bit =(.

Right now looking at the Sansetsukon as it gives a high base damage (d10) and a crit range of 19-20 (+blocking, disarming and flurry ofc)

And since I would be Human I could spend a feat on the proficiency.

[Ssalarn]

Pardon me, my fault... I got caught up in all the good info and didn't remember it's a pathfinder thread.

So if I may ask a more appropriate question.

Were would the playground rate the pathfinder monk compared to the 3.5 monk? Better, worse or about the same?

That's a little difficult to answer, because there's a lot of variables. The chassis itself saw improvement, but the game around it changed in such a way that in some ways it is functionally worse.

IMHO, Pathfinder Monk with archetypes and Style feats included is decisively better, but the core monk alone is either on par or a little bit worse than his 3.5 counterpart.

[aleucard]

I'm about to play what is possibly a Tashalatora Erudite with Carmedine Monk. The design philosophy behind this one is, of course, the phrase 'My body is a weapon.' I intend on asking my DM if he'll let me get abilities that mimic various equipment items instead of actual WBL to push this even further. I'm willing to accept a WBL penalty as well as something that makes magic equipment not work unless if I turn the relevant abilities off if needs be; in this case, I'll mostly be using any cash I get for flavorful things and funding my Craft skills, maybe a couple trinkets and other magic items that don't fit this method of doing things (that talisman that gives unending Tenser's Floating Disk on demand, for instance).

Monk itself is pretty damn hosed in most situations, yeah. However, as has been noted a truly epic number of times by several epic people, it is FAR from useless, especially as a dip. Not to mention several of the more amusing PrC's.

[TheMonocleRogue]

There's a player in our campaign whose 16th level monk has 60+ AC. You'd think his damage sucks from putting all of his points in Wis and Dex but each turn he can strike for 12d10 damage thanks to greater vital strike and enlarge person.

He's also very hard to take down due to having 26 SR and good saves across the board.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I had quite a bit of fun with with a Maneuver Master monk that focused on Dirty Tricks. This was for a Zelda themed game where I played a Goron named Hagon the Hulk =). Note, this is another one of those archetypes which was written absolutely terribly and requires some RAI tweeks.

[Dimcair]

Would you guys consider giving up the human bonus feat and the +1 Skillpoint/level for an additional +2 in a ability stat?

If, for example, I have 2 additional points to put into constitution, not only replaces that toughness (which is not too bad to have) but it also increases my fortitude save even further.

Same goes for putting 2 additional points into dex or wisdom instead of taking the dodge feat. In both cases I gain +1 to AC and a higher reflex or will save respectively. Not to mention more (potential) aoo and all the benefits of wisdom to (some of) my abilities.

The ONLY downside I can see is that I would only get 3 skill points each level. (8 int)
They would cover Acrobatics, Perception, and either Stealth or Climb + Some single ranks thrown into class skills.
So I would loose out on a semifullskilled stealth/climb score.

What do you think?



Dual Talent:
Some humans are uniquely skilled at maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one ability score, the bonus feat, and the skilled traits.

[Psyren]

Not worth it. More feats = faster qualification for the good stuff.

I would also calculate your comparison differently. If you had spent that same feat on Extra Ki, it would be equivalent to an extra 4 Wis.

[Dimcair]

Not worth it. More feats = faster qualification for the good stuff.

I would also calculate your comparison differently. If you had spent that same feat on Extra Ki, it would be equivalent to an extra 4 Wis.

Can you point me in the direction of some of these feats? Especially feats I can take at level 1? +)

[Snowbluff]

Can you point me in the direction of some of these feats? Especially feats I can take at level 1? +)

Err... No. I can't. You can make prerequisites. The other +2 isn't worth giving that up.

[eggynack]

To kill a dominated Druid.

mark a spot on the ground near a tree line, tell the druid to stand on that exact spot and keep his/her full attention on the tree line for signs of attack... tell the druid to alert you at first sign of an enemy but only because it's more devious that way.

Now walk out of ear shot from the druid, and whisper to your party damage dealers, especially your rogue that it's Coup De Gra time.

said damage dealers just walk up behind, making sure to mask the sound their weapons being drawn, and good by Druid.
There are many solutions to this problem, which is why the base situation is silly. However, if I'm just trying to kill the fellow, and not trying to have a druid for awhile, then why am I not just casting something like baleful polymorph, which at least hits a marginally worse save, or even something that works off of reflex? Something like call avalanche is close, though it's a bit unreliable. I mean, druids even have occasional protections from the base dominate effect, like immunity with certain wild shape forms, and even the obscure protection from winged fliers (Shining South, 48), which is like pro evil, except with winged fliers. Just a ridiculous number of holes in this "weakness", to the point where I'm pretty sure I can just go back to calling this weird secret language a minor strength of the class. Not, y'know, an important one, but secret druid conversations are fun.

[Dimcair]

Thanks to all for sharing your experience.

I'd like to ask now about your ways of making Medusa's Wrath worth, and whether or not a hungry ghost monk, who would use weapons to benefit from the wider crit range should, even go down this path.

The obvious (meant to be) way to do it is the scorpion style, gorgons fist and then medusa's wrath way.

Round 1: run up to enemy, use standard attack to deal a single unarmed strike for a CHANCE he fails his fort save. (Lose a Two-handed Powerattack with your one-handed weapon, which is after level 10 not even that terrible as your unarmed damage is closing in)

Round 2: If the target moved away use gorgons fist as standard action to deal unarmed damage and for a chance of staggering him.

Round 3: Go to town. Assuming a flurry of 13/13/8/8. You don't wield your temple sword with two hands and lose a bit of damage, you use one of the 13s to hit him unarmed to get another two unarmed attacks for 13.

IF.... he is not just using another move action to run away from you. Which means you slowly kill him, but if he is that weak chances are you don't even need the extra attacks. Plus he needs to fail a lot of saving throws. 10+1/2 monk level + Wis mod (~18).

I am torn here. Since hungry ghost monk trades away his stunning fist, I don't think the feat investment to make it work is worth it. And the couple of situations where you could use it you already are in an advantageous position. Am I wrong? Other clever ways of using this?

[PsyBomb]

Thanks to all for sharing your experience.

I'd like to ask now about your ways of making Medusa's Wrath worth, and whether or not a hungry ghost monk, who would use weapons to benefit from the wider crit range should, even go down this path.

The obvious (meant to be) way to do it is the scorpion style, gorgons fist and then medusa's wrath way.

Round 1: run up to enemy, use standard attack to deal a single unarmed strike for a CHANCE he fails his fort save. (Lose a Two-handed Powerattack with your one-handed weapon, which is after level 10 not even that terrible as your unarmed damage is closing in)

Round 2: If the target moved away use gorgons fist as standard action to deal unarmed damage and for a chance of staggering him.

Round 3: Go to town. Assuming a flurry of 13/13/8/8. You don't wield your temple sword with two hands and lose a bit of damage, you use one of the 13s to hit him unarmed to get another two unarmed attacks for 13.

IF.... he is not just using another move action to run away from you. Which means you slowly kill him, but if he is that weak chances are you don't even need the extra attacks. Plus he needs to fail a lot of saving throws. 10+1/2 monk level + Wis mod (~18).

I am torn here. Since hungry ghost monk trades away his stunning fist, I don't think the feat investment to make it work is worth it. And the couple of situations where you could use it you already are in an advantageous position. Am I wrong? Other clever ways of using this?

Medusa's Wrath is a Monk Bonus Feat, and those do not need to meet prereqs. You can skip the lackluster feats leading u to it. Taking Stunning Fist as a feat early is a good idea, since the usual method of use is going to be to open with a Stun, and if it connects proceed into the rest of your Flurry with bonus attacks added on.

[Dimcair]

Medusa's Wrath is a Monk Bonus Feat, and those do not need to meet prereqs. You can skip the lackluster feats leading u to it. Taking Stunning Fist as a feat early is a good idea, since the usual method of use is going to be to open with a Stun, and if it connects proceed into the rest of your Flurry with bonus attacks added on.

That almost makes me want to drop Hungry Ghost monk and pick up the drunken master instead =(. But I guess I have an extra feat to spend.

[Snowbluff]

Medusa's Wrath is a Monk Bonus Feat, and those do not need to meet prereqs. You can skip the lackluster feats leading u to it. Taking Stunning Fist as a feat early is a good idea, since the usual method of use is going to be to open with a Stun, and if it connects proceed into the rest of your Flurry with bonus attacks added on.

Or just take Cornugan Smash, and only have 1 level of monk. :smalltongue:

[acester86]

Look in exaulted deeds if your DM will let you. If you take vow of poverty it makes you crazy op. Anthrypromorphic cheeta is the best race.< think that is how it is spelled.

[eggynack]

Look in exaulted deeds if your DM will let you. If you take vow of poverty it makes you crazy op.
This is very much incorrect, as monks need wealth in order to function, and as VoP really provides very little overall. Monks have a few reasonable ways to access something akin to competence, but most of them are left behind when you take VoP. Moreover, with or without VoP, unless you're doing something akin to tashalatora, you're unlikely to be crazy OP in the least. This stuff is doubly true as this appears to be a pathfinder based thread, which means that VoP is inexplicably even more useless.

[137beth]

Look in exaulted deeds if your DM will let you. If you take vow of poverty it makes you crazy op. Anthrypromorphic cheeta is the best race.< think that is how it is spelled.

I wonder how many inaccurate forum posts could be corrected by a script which replaced "monk" with "druid".
...you'd have to figure out a way to make sure it only fixes the ones that are already wrong.

[eggynack]

I wonder how many inaccurate forum posts could be corrected by a script which replaced "monk" with "druid".
...you'd have to figure out a way to make sure it only fixes the ones that are already wrong.
Still wouldn't really be accurate. As applies to druids, a more apt claim would be that vow of poverty doesn't remove too much of the crazy OP nature that already exists. I can see it being pretty problematic in low optimization games though, as the feat basically forces you into exalted wild shape, and from there you're just a tiny hop over to free action dimension door every round from blink dog form, which I could see being somewhat game damaging. There's obviously other stuff worth mentioning from VoP, but that's the thing I'd most expect a player lacking in system mastery to find.

[magwaaf]

so i'm here with one of my party members and my dm and as much as hungry ghost and qinggong work together, qinggong kinda sucks. the idea is really cool but the list is meh at best. i just would go straight hungry ghost never look back, i've seen them played, they are undying killing machines.

[PsyBomb]

so i'm here with one of my party members and my dm and as much as hungry ghost and qinggong work together, qinggong kinda sucks. the idea is really cool but the list is meh at best. i just would go straight hungry ghost never look back, i've seen them played, they are undying killing machines.

Qinggong sucks? I disagree here, and greatly. The idea is to trade out anything you don't like (Slow Fall comes strongly to mind) for usable tricks (Scorching Ray is a personal favorite, gives me a Hadouken). It stacks with everything and anything, with none of the changes required, so there is literally no reason NOT to write the word "Quinggong" in front of your Monk archetype.

[Psyren]

so i'm here with one of my party members and my dm and as much as hungry ghost and qinggong work together, qinggong kinda sucks. the idea is really cool but the list is meh at best. i just would go straight hungry ghost never look back, i've seen them played, they are undying killing machines.

So let me get this straight - you'd rather have Slow Fall, High Jump and Tongue of the Sun and Moon than Scorching Ray, True Strike and Gaseous Form? :smalltongue:

[Drelua]

Yeah, not to mention Spit Venom, which is my personal favourite even if only for the reaction I got from my party the first time my monk ran up to a sphinx and spit a toxic green lugi into it's eyes. That's way better than quivering palm, which is only 1/day and not nearly as cool.

It's really a pure upgrade, getting rid of those abilities that are so useless or just plain silly that I'd just pretend they didn't exist even if I had them, and giving you tonnes of really cool stuff instead. There's absolutely no downside to taking it.

[magwaaf]

So let me get this straight - you'd rather have Slow Fall, High Jump and Tongue of the Sun and Moon than Scorching Ray, True Strike and Gaseous Form? :smalltongue:

yes... otherwise i'll play a sorc/wizard/magus.

qinggong is just a bad caster.