Way to "fix" rage mage?

[Dominuce2112]

I am playing a new campaign and am hitting a dead end when it comes to what I want to play. We have a spell focused druid, a dual wielding swashbuckler and a tank fighter. I was debating between time domained cleric or eventual master transmogrifist (since we dont have a healer any arcane).

They both have their pros and cons so i did a little more digging and found the style of class I wanted to play, the rage mage. The idea of giving into the primal powers of magic and losing my sanity to an arcane rage seems like an awesome character to play.

However, the rage mage class on the wizard site is awful. Are there any classes that fits the theme/style I am aiming for? any ways to fix the rage mage?

[weckar]

Rage Mage isn't THAT bad. Yes, you lose a ton of casting levels, but it has some neat class features. Probably not enough to make up for it, but....
Anyways, Wild Mage, maybe?

[inertia709]

Rage Mage irks me. It's like the designer decided that the best chasis for a barbarian/arcanist prc should be the equivalent of alternating levels of barbarian and wizard levels (3/4 BAB and 1/2 casting progression). It's too bad since the flavour is pretty good and some of the class features are decent, and Spell Rage is basically necessary for barabarian gish. I REALLY wanted to play a rage mage in one game, but I couldn't bear to nerf myself that badly.

That being said, it's really only the chasis that's the problem. A quick and easy fix? Give the class a full BAB progression and increase spells per day at every level except for 1st and 6th (like Jade Phoenix Mage). The class features, while not earth-shattering, are enough to keep you on par with most other gishes with this chasis. Take levels in Abjurant Champion later for fun and profit.

[flare'90]

You could also just let casters cast during rage, without the limited uses of magical rage.

[Kantolin]

Isn't the Champion of Gwyn.... something from the book of exalted deeds a 'raging caster' as well?

I know it's not the same thing, but maybe that will help out - or at least give a base to homebrew/reflavor things from.

Edit: It's the Champion of Gwynharwyf, page 56. Hey, I got the first four letters correct after all!
Anyway, it has its own set list and is [good], but it is a 'raging caster' so it might work.

[Dominuce2112]

Rage Mage irks me. It's like the designer decided that the best chasis for a barbarian/arcanist prc should be the equivalent of alternating levels of barbarian and wizard levels (3/4 BAB and 1/2 casting progression). It's too bad since the flavour is pretty good and some of the class features are decent, and Spell Rage is basically necessary for barabarian gish. I REALLY wanted to play a rage mage in one game, but I couldn't bear to nerf myself that badly.

That being said, it's really only the chasis that's the problem. A quick and easy fix? Give the class a full BAB progression and increase spells per day at every level except for 1st and 6th (like Jade Phoenix Mage). The class features, while not earth-shattering, are enough to keep you on par with most other gishes with this chasis. Take levels in Abjurant Champion later for fun and profit.

Thats my problem with it too. The flavour is different from what ive played and would tons of fun to role play. Even if there isnt a quick fix my DM is pretty lienant. Hopefully I can find something out.

I think i read somewhere of a redo rage mage in unapproachable east?

[DMVerdandi]

I am playing a new campaign and am hitting a dead end when it comes to what I want to play. We have a spell focused druid, a dual wielding swashbuckler and a tank fighter. I was debating between time domained cleric or eventual master transmogrifist (since we dont have a healer any arcane).

They both have their pros and cons so i did a little more digging and found the style of class I wanted to play, the rage mage. The idea of giving into the primal powers of magic and losing my sanity to an arcane rage seems like an awesome character to play.

However, the rage mage class on the wizard site is awful. Are there any classes that fits the theme/style I am aiming for? any ways to fix the rage mage?

This is what I would do.
1. Full casting.
2.Full BAB
3. Don't differentiate spell rage and regular rage. Have spell rage as a modification onto the regular rage that you have. In fact, simply make it into a feat, which allows you to cast and use skills. Like extra rage and the like.
Then give the class the feat for free at first level.

This way, it opens up raging for all classes that have it, without necessarily needing to take the class, HOWEVER the class is the best way to progress, as it progresses your rage and spell casting at the same time.

[Larkas]

Full BAB + 7/10 or 8/10 casting should do the trick.

[A.A.King]

There exists a homebrew Retool, which might be what you're looking for

Insert Link Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?216177-Rage-Mage-D-amp-D-3-5-PrC-Retool)

[DMVerdandi]

Full BAB + 7/10 or 8/10 casting should do the trick.

Why have less than full?
You already have to give up spell casting just to get rage, and you are looking at entering the class at least level 7 with the BAB requirement.

There would be even smarter and more efficient routes to full BAB and full casting, so partial casting would only make it worse for no reason.

[Psyren]

Hyperconscious has the Cerebral Rager PrC for Wilders that is much better at being a Rage Mage. Or you can be a PF Wilder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/wilder) with Raging Surge.

[Larkas]

Why have less than full?
You already have to give up spell casting just to get rage, and you are looking at entering the class at least level 7 with the BAB requirement.

There would be even smarter and more efficient routes to full BAB and full casting, so partial casting would only make it worse for no reason.

Because I said so.

Now, for a real answer: the only full BAB, full casting class is Abjurant Champion, and it's only 5 levels long. Aside from that, you've got Eldritch Knight, Knight Phantom and Raumathari Battlemage, which are 9/10, or stuff like Jade Phoenix Mage, which is 8/10, and a few 7/10 (though the only I can remember offhand is PF's Arcane Archer). I'd be willing to let a 9/10 slide to facilitate a Sorcerer entry, but I'd never let it go 10/10.

[DMVerdandi]

Because I said so.

Sassy aint ya?



Now, for a real answer: the only full BAB, full casting class is Abjurant Champion, and it's only 5 levels long. Aside from that, you've got Eldritch Knight, Knight Phantom and Raumathari Battlemage, which are 9/10, or stuff like Jade Phoenix Mage, which is 8/10, and a few 7/10 (though the only I can remember offhand is PF's Arcane Archer). I'd be willing to let a 9/10 slide to facilitate a Sorcerer entry, but I'd never let it go 10/10.

Prove to me that isn't just bad design.
See how many people play those classes? So few. It might catch those without what we could now call common sense, but any player worth their salt isn't going to make the trade.

[Larkas]

Considering how many posters come to this forum asking for advice on building a gish, or just to showcase their builds, I'd say 9/10 classes see plenty of use, and some specific 8/10 do too. Heck, the Swiftblade is 6/10 and people regularly recommend it. Of course, not all PrCs are built the same, specially regarding entry prerequisites, but the Rage Mage's entry prerequisites are easy enough to hit that a 8/10 progression (for a Wizard) or a 9/10 progression (for a Sorcerer) are good enough to hit 9th level spells at 20th level. That's good enough. The class doesn't need to outshine every other gish PrC out there to be playable.

As for proving that's good design, the burden of the proof of the opposite is on you. I'm merely following what's considered the best gish PrCs' design. 3.X might not be the best designed RPG system out there, but a little internal consistency, as far as I'm concerned, is a good thing. Specially as, at 8/10 or 9/10, it's perfectly and nicely playable.

[ngilop]

take a look at my Rage Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16459277&postcount=34)fix, and see if it is up to your liking :)

[DMVerdandi]

Considering how many posters come to this forum asking for advice on building a gish, or just to showcase their builds, I'd say 9/10 classes see plenty of use, and some specific 8/10 do too. Heck, the Swiftblade is 6/10 and people regularly recommend it. Of course, not all PrCs are built the same, specially regarding entry prerequisites, but the Rage Mage's entry prerequisites are easy enough to hit that a 8/10 progression (for a Wizard) or a 9/10 progression (for a Sorcerer) are good enough to hit 9th level spells at 20th level. That's good enough. The class doesn't need to outshine every other gish PrC out there to be playable.

Well, swift blade grants extra actions. That is one of the rarest and most potent things in the game. Also, I am sure it isn't recommended with wizard Gishes but sorcerers, since one would need to always be able to cast haste. Another thing is swift blade essentially takes 5 other spells and gives them to you for free.

The abilities it gives you are FAR more potent than what is gained from rage mage.





As for proving that's good design, the burden of the proof of the opposite is on you. I'm merely following what's considered the best gish PrCs' design. 3.X might not be the best designed RPG system out there, but a little internal consistency, as far as I'm concerned, is a good thing. Specially as, at 8/10 or 9/10, it's perfectly and nicely playable.[/QUOTE]
9/10 is fine, but no less. Especially with the ease one can obtain divine power and as an arcane spell, really the standard gish route is shenanigans. It is foolish in comparison, since as a wizard or sorcerer or druid, it is core to be able to learn individual spells off of other lists.

Put that one on every list and it becomes unnecessary to leave a class for full BAB. Perhaps more health, but there are plenty of spells that boost constitution as well.

So why penalize searching for a class to have that concept of a martial mage, when if left to their own devices it could be done far more easily with spell casting alone?

Because they can fight at the level of a warrior NPC in a no-magic zone? Simple fix, Don't go in no magic zones, If you do, have some sort of kick but minion, and viola. Still better.

It's bad because leaving the class is supposed to be beneficial, rather than a punishment or unequal exchange.

[Jeff the Green]

The problem with even 7/10 or 8/10 casting is that the only classes with those progressions that are ever recommended have really nice class features. Like maneuvers. Rage Mage... doesn't. Spell rage is so limited it might as well not be there. Angry Spell is notable only for the amusing name. Spell Fury is decent, but Abjurant Champion does it better. And Warrior Cry brings your fighting capabilities up to barely above where they be if you'd gone with a more traditional gish PrC.

There's a reason why most Abjurant Champion builds finish up with Sacred Exorcist rather than Eldritch Knight.

I agree with DMVerdandi that it should be a feat. Make the prerequisite be 1st-level spells and rage 2/day. That way you can get it with four barbarian levels or

[DarkSonic1337]

Rather than just give it 10/10 casting and full bab I'd give it 9/10 or even 8/10 casting and better class features as well as easier prereqs.

Take off Combat Casting prereq, lower bab prereq to +3, give tireless rage earlier, make spell furry usable once per 3 levels of rage mage each time you rage (that's 3 free quickens!) and...idk give rage mage a bonus against dispels while in rage, make the angry rage feature give a bonus to caster level instead of spell DCs, bonus damage to damage spells. Something unique like +1/2 Rage Mage level rounds duration to spells you cast while raging could be fun too.

Just giving them the best chasis will obviously fix them. But I'd rather have a fix that differentiates them more from other gishes. Make the fact that they're a RAGE mage more pronounced.

[BloodyMartian]

I have a note written down that says there was a Rage Mage prestige in Dragon Magazine 276. As I recall it had its own casting progression but its Spell Rage let you increase the DC of some of your spell by your class level and increase caster level by a couple of levels for the duration of the rage. And the capstone of the class was you didn't expend spell slots during a spell rage. Not sure that is all entirely accurate, or real, but if you want to go looking for it you can.

[Flickerdart]

Who hasn't made their own Rage Mage fix? Because I have (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?218562-3-5-PrC-PEACH-Ever-get-so-mad-you-started-casting-spells-while-raging). Full BAB, 8/10 casting, new class features that are actually interesting.

[Sorc]

Isn't the Champion of Gwyn.... something from the book of exalted deeds a 'raging caster' as well?

I know it's not the same thing, but maybe that will help out - or at least give a base to homebrew/reflavor things from.

Edit: It's the Champion of Gwynharwyf, page 56. Hey, I got the first four letters correct after all!
Anyway, it has its own set list and is [good], but it is a 'raging caster' so it might work.

It can only "Raging cast" from it's own spell list (champion of gwynharwyf divine spell list)