Explain large sized weapon inconsistencies to me please

[Iwasforger03]

Alright, wielding oversized weapons. You take a -2 or -4 (i forget which) penalty, and you can't do it with two handed weapons because the difficulty increases, so light becomes one handed, one handed becomes two handed, and two handed can't be done.

Titan mauler was supposed to fix this, but as I understand it, doesn't. You STILL can't wield oversized two handed weapons (ex: oversized greatsword).

Why the hell can the iconic Barbarian wield a Large Sized Greatsword?

[Larkas]

Maybe because world consistency trumps rule of cool? Or maybe because it's actually a large bastard sword?

... Hey, I'm not saying these were great answers.

[Iwasforger03]

OH, it's a bastard sword? Well that actually makes sense, rules wise. Ok, thank you.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Where's the inconsistency?

A longsword sized for an ogre would be the same physical size as a two-handed blade for a human, but its not balanced correctly for a medium sized character so they take a -2 penalty on attack rolls.

But a greatsword or even worse a polearm sized for an ogre is physically two big for a medium creature to wield without it getting in the way of its self. Where does it end? should a barbarian be allowed to wield a two-handed weapon sized for a titan? or a colossal creature? What about a Halfling barbarian?

At what point is a weapon just to big for a character to use? By that same token a ogre couldn't wield a light weapon intended for small characters.



Titan mauler was supposed to fix this
Option not fact, a titan mauler could eventually use an ogre's longsword in two-hands without penalty. Now if your in a campaign where you fight a lot of giants then salvaging their weapons for your own use could be quite helpful. But the class was never intended to break the "inappropriately sized weapon rules." just ignore the penalties.

[animewatcha]

So a Medium morning star. Normally, a one-handed weapon for Medium. I understand that I would have to wield a Large morning star in two hands via medium creature. However, do I get the -2 for this as a Medium creature?

[Lord Vukodlak]

So a Medium morning star. Normally, a one-handed weapon for Medium. I understand that I would have to wield a Large morning star in two hands via medium creature. However, do I get the -2 for this as a Medium creature?

Yes, because weapons designed for x sized creature are balanced for x sized creature. If a weapon is unbalanced it's harder to wield. Hence the penalty.

[Iwasforger03]

The Inconsistency was me thinking the iconic barbarian was wielding a large sized greatsword.

[AvatarVecna]

The Titan Mauler archetype, for lack of a better phrase, sucks gonads. It gives you new options that either suck, or are so pitiful in comparison to other options that they may as well not exist.

The normal over-sized weapon rules say that for every size category difference between the wielder and the intended wielder, there is both a cumulative -2 penalty, and a shift in the difficulty of wielding the weapon, as appropriate to the size change. Thus, a Medium Two-handed weapon, a Large One-handed weapon, and a Huge Light weapon all take two hands to wield; furthermore, the base damage generally in the same across all weapon sizes for the same level of wielding difficulty. Therefore, the only difference between these three weapons is that the larger weapons suffer the cumulative attack penalty.

Under the normal rules, larger weapons aren't easier to wield, have no damage advantage, and give an attack penalty, making them terrible alternatives without additional options. So does the Titan Mauler fix this? No. No it does not.

Jotungrip makes it possible to wield two-handed weapons in one hand...at a penalty. The problems with this is that, firstly, it only applies to weapons appropriately sized for the character. Secondly, it has limited advantage defensively: you can use a shield. Whoop de doo. Thirdly, it cripples your offensive power: the attack penalty for dual-wielding two-handed weapons is devastating, and the Power attack benefits increase for weapons wielded in two hands, not two-handed weapons no matter what: the idea is that, with two hands on a weapon, you can turn it into a lever, using both of your arms to add force to your swing for great effect. With only one hand on a weapon, there's only so much you can do.

Massive Weapons lets you be just as competent with larger weapons (eventually) as a regular barbarian is with Medium ones. It never gives you any advantages over a straight barbarian; it only lessens penalties, eventually letting you be just as good as if you'd not taken Titan Mauler.

It should be noted that these two abilities can't be combined. It should also be noted that, even if they could be, that wouldn't fix them, or make the Titan Mauler any more valid of an archetype.

As for your actual question, they're wielding a Large Bastard Sword, which is about the only over-sized weapon that's potentially worth wielding.

[Rijan_Sai]

But a greatsword or even worse a polearm sized for an ogre is physically two big for a medium creature to wield without it getting in the way of its self. Where does it end? should a barbarian be allowed to wield a two-handed weapon sized for a titan? or a colossal creature? What about a Halfling barbarian?

At what point is a weapon just to big for a character to use? By that same token a ogre couldn't wield a light weapon intended for small characters.

*Just for fun, points to the (highly strict) reading of Titan Bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#titan)*

Say hello to my little friend: Maxwell, a 12th level Titan bloodline Kobold (with permanent Reduce Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reducePerson.htm)) *insert class here* who wields a(n alchemical silver) Gargantuan warhammer...without penalty!
(Or, you know, use a much more sane reading and have the ability to wield any weapon of 1 size larger (i.e. medium->large; huge->gargantuan), rather then strictly Gargantuan warhammer...*)
Yeah...definitely going to have to play that one some time!
*Not RAW, but it could be extended out to allow even larger weapons at the usual penalties, i.e. medium character using a huge longsword at -2 penalty

[Iwasforger03]

Oversized Katana and Oversized Dwarven Waraxe and oversized Falcata might be worth it

2d6 18-20x2, 2d8 x3, 2d6 19-20x3 respectively.

[MightyPirate]

Those give an average of 2 extra damage per hit (the falcata is 2.5) versus similar appropriately sized weapons for a regular barbarian. They'll be laughing at you for trading fast movement for an ability you won't use, not to mention to opportunity cost of other archetypes not taken. Last I heard Weapon Specialization is only worth it to a fighter with nothing else interesting to take.

The only redeemable class feature would be evade reach and even then it's only useful if you can delay to your enemies' initiative and ignore all of their attacks. If this is not possible, (it's highly sketch to say the least,) then it's outclassed by a second level cleric spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/grace). Hell even the paladin evades AoE's better than you.

Now if Titan Mauler could get enhanced Reach from oversized weapons that would be something but that is very clearly keyed to creature size, not weapon size. Opportunity missed, eh?

[Iwasforger03]

You don't need Titan Mauler for Oversized Katana, waraxe, and Falcata, and especially with Barbarians the str bonus can almost make up for it. at high enough levels with even moderate optimizing, you'll still reliably hit everything so close to as many times as someone not taking that -2 it becomes negligible. In some games, you'll hit exactly as many times and it's a rare game where that -2 is a constant and supremely annoying deciding factor in hitting enemies or not.

[Psyren]

You don't need Titan Mauler for Oversized Katana, waraxe, and Falcata, and especially with Barbarians the str bonus can almost make up for it.

In PF, the iconic barbarian wields an oversized greatsword, and relies on her rage to cancel out the penalty.

[Kudaku]

In PF, the iconic barbarian wields an oversized greatsword, and relies on her rage to cancel out the penalty.

Not quite. She uses an oversized bastard sword (with proficiency), as she wouldn't be able to wield a large greatsword.

The original idea was that the Titan Mauler was able to break the "oversized weapon" limitation, but there was a rules snafu in editing. The archetype writer (Jason Nelson) made a few posts on the Paizo forums about it actually, I'll see if I can drag them up.

Edit: There we go!

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n3tb?Titan-Mauler-what-can-and-cant-it-wield#7

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n3tb?Titan-Mauler-what-can-and-cant-it-wield#21

[Iwasforger03]

Not quite. She uses an oversized bastard sword (with proficiency), as she wouldn't be able to wield a large greatsword.

The original idea was that the Titan Mauler was able to break the "oversized weapon" limitation, but there was a rules snafu in editing. The archetype writer (Jason Nelson) made a few posts on the Paizo forums about it actually, I'll see if I can drag them up.

Edit: There we go!

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n3tb?Titan-Mauler-what-can-and-cant-it-wield#7

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n3tb?Titan-Mauler-what-can-and-cant-it-wield#21

IF that second one counts at FAQ or Errata then Titan Mauler just got a whole lot better. The means at high levels you're wielding Huge Sized (or higher if you yourself are larger than medium) weapons without penalty. Which is awesome. Actually, the second version of massive weapon he proposed gets you up to Gargantuan i think.

[squiggit]

IF that second one counts at FAQ or Errata then Titan Mauler just got a whole lot better.
It doesn't. The official FAQ doubled down on the current (useless) version and asserted that it doesn't work with large weapons.

[Kudaku]

IF that second one counts at FAQ or Errata then Titan Mauler just got a whole lot better. The means at high levels you're wielding Huge Sized (or higher if you yourself are larger than medium) weapons without penalty. Which is awesome. Actually, the second version of massive weapon he proposed gets you up to Gargantuan i think.

Unfortunately it doesn't count as a FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9okv), but it is a pretty strong argument for convincing your GM that titan maulers are meant to, well, work in a home game.

[Iwasforger03]

Unfortunately it doesn't count as a FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9okv), but it is a pretty strong argument for convincing your GM that titan maulers are meant to, well, work in a home game.

I don't play society, so it should be close enough for any game I do play.

[Judge_Worm]

So, technically speaking can a six armed medium creature wield a light weapon built for a tarrasque?

[Slipperychicken]

You guys are just focusing on melee weapons. A house-sized Colossal++ longbow has the same effective range as a 3 inch bow made for a bug.

[Iwasforger03]

*shrug* True, but that can be argued as having to do with the increased size/practicality of the arrow. Also, another reason we don't see collosal archers much is all those penalties they take to atk rolls with ranged weapons due to size and low/negative dexterity.


Makes one wonder if giants ever tried going Zen Archer.