Some help with an Alchemist?

[Decatus]

Hey there GiTP folks;

So I'm going to be playing in an upcoming game with some friends, and I've decided that I'd like to play a Dex based "Mr. Hyde" Alchemist. The thing is, I'm not 100% sure which discoveries and feats I should be shooting for.

Relevant information:


Starting at level 3
17 Point Buy
Anything off of the Paizo official PRD (http://paizo.com/prd/) is legal
We don't get traits by default, but we can take the "Extra Traits" feat to get 2 of our choice.
I'm aiming for a supportive role - our other support member is a Druid focusing on spells. We've also got a couple of front liners (Fighter, maybe a Barb).


I'm 99% sure that I want to use the Vivisectionist Archetype to trade Bombs for Sneak Attack, but if you guys think Bombs would be better, give me a good argument and I can be convinced to switch.

I may be replacing the trapfinder for our party - am I stuck with taking the Trap Breaker Archetype, or is there a trait that I can use to get Trapfinding?

The game is a survival horror type game - we'll be fighting "zombies" (the DM is using a template to make most mobs mindless rage-killing machines), so we will need to keep track of things like ammo and food.

Thanks in advance for any advice you guys can give; I know you're the best.

[Kudaku]

The Infusion discovery is basically mandatory if you want to play a "support" alchemist, pick it up ASAP. Infusions mean you can hand out personal-range buffs, which is very good - Shield and Alchemical Allocation extracts will make the fighter and barbarian love you.

Bombs or Sneak attack are both viable options, take whichever you feel more comfortable with. That said, I can imagine a lot of uses for bombs in a campaign that focuses on zombie hordes...

There is an option besides crypt breaker that gives you the important part of Trap Finding, the Trap Finder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder) trait. However it's a campaign trait, so I'd check with your GM to make sure he's okay with it. For what it's worth I don't consider it an overpowered trait.

[Psyren]

Bombs are probably more useful if you're planning on a support role:

1) They let you focus less on physical stats (since you won't be in melee) and therefore have more resources to put into Int, which in turn means more infusions to pass around.

2) You can be effective at range, which means you have more freedom to position yourself around the battlefield as needed.

[golem1972]

Mr. Hyde is probably better with strength. Beast morph + feral mutagen + vivisectionist = a lot of pain. Giant shape (troll) is fun for Mr. Hyde.
There is a second level infusion that lets you use a potion without expending it. Use this with high caster level potions like magic fang without blowing through all of your gold.
Barbarian is an ok dip, wonderful in gestalt, but stay away from rage chemist.

If bombs were at will I'd say stick with them, but they're not.

[Muggins]

I hope the OP at least knows to take the Feral Mutagen discovery. :smalltongue:

If you go for bombs, you'll have a viable ranged attack option and can take Precise Bombs instead of Feral Mutagen. If you go for sneak attack, you'll want as many attacks as you can get (the Feral Mutagen discovery, plus using either unarmed strike or armour spikes for iterative attacks). A support alchemist likely works better with bombs, especially if they take discoveries like Smoke Bomb to disable swathes of the enemy team.

Oh, and infusions. Don't forget about infusions.

[Spore]

I highly advise NOT to mix Dex Alchemist and Mr. Hyde Wannabes. At least not for this early in games because you honestly have to be Human for the extra feat or else you will always lag behind.


I'm 99% sure that I want to use the Vivisectionist Archetype to trade Bombs for Sneak Attack, but if you guys think Bombs would be better, give me a good argument and I can be convinced to switch.

Three words: Ranged touch attacks. See that GIANT red dragon that can only be hit on a 35 or above? Yeah, Touch AC 10 (by that level you should have bombs with anything other than fire damage also). It's essentially your option for free ranged combat making the Alchemist into a very viable switch hitter. And the fun part? Dex isn't even heavily needed. I have gone for Dex 14 to get some AC and ranged to-hit but it would've worked equally as good with Dex 10.


Starting at level 3
17 Point Buy
Anything off of the Paizo official PRD is legal
We don't get traits by default, but we can take the "Extra Traits" feat to get 2 of our choice.
I'm aiming for a supportive role - our other support member is a Druid focusing on spells. We've also got a couple of front liners (Fighter, maybe a Barb).

Str 10/Dex 16/Con 12/Int 15/Wis 10/Cha 8 would've been your load-out for a supporting Dex Alchemist (keep in mind that I disregard Mr. Hyde here). Your job with this one is to flank, to buff and to bomb which complements your party (damage = fighter/barb, control/heal = druid and buff/melee = you) quite nicely. Vanilla Tiefling is the best racial mods for that by far. Elf would be another choice but I feel Con 10 is too dangerous in melee range.

Feats:
(1) Toughness
(3) Weapon Finesse
[(5) + (7) Master Craftsman (Alchemy) + Craft Wondrous Items; if you fancy supporting with improving wealth by level]

Discoveries:
(2) Infusion
[(4) Enhance Potion; Get Alchemical Allocation, some useful Potions on minimal CL and use them to heavily buff yourself
(6) Flight; to fly is to be save]

Skills 4+Int = 6:
Full Ranks: Perception, Disable Device, Craft (Alchemy), Know (Arcana), Know (Nature); split up the rest as needed

This build is only made to support the party. You likely won't see much damage but you will do consistent damage. Your party benefits from your Extracts, Bomb damage to finish targets off, later on your item creation. Important pointers for infused extracts are (1) Expedtiious Retreat, CLW, Enlarge Person, Shield; (2) Aid/False Life, Alchemical Allocation, Barkskin, CMW, Invisibility, Stat +4 boosts, Resist Energy, Lesser Restoration, See Invisibility etc.

If you want to deal damage in flanking, change your attributes to this:
Str 15/Dex 12/Con 14/Int 14/Wis 10/Cha 8

Get Feral Mutagen on 2. level, decide between Vivisectionist or Trap Breaker, change Weapon Finesse for Power Attack on 4.

[Decatus]

Okay, so I've been convinced by you guys to go with Bombs in order to support. Would the Grenader archetype be worth it in that case? I'd have to take Brew Potion as a feat, but then I could use my martial weapon on a bow or something, instead of being forced into a crossbow.

I'd also lose poison use, but I'm not well versed enough in Pathfinder poisons to know if its a good trade.

[Psyren]

Yeah, Grenadier is good. Poisons are generally terrible because the save DCs are so low relative to their cost, so no big loss there.

Trap-Breaker alchemist is good too - being able to disarm traps at range can save you from many DMs.

[Spore]

Trap-Breaker alchemist is good too - being able to disarm traps at range can save you from many DMs.

But be wary. There are DMs that simply do not use traps.

[Psyren]

But be wary. There are DMs that simply do not use traps.

True, but I assumed that his does since he was asking for a way to get trapfinding in the OP.

[Spore]

People sometimes accuse me of stating the obvious. But still we don't know if OP thinks he needs a trapfinder or if his DM told him to do so.

[Decatus]

I think I'd rather take Grenadier over Trap Breaker. The trait to get trap finding should be enough on its own, I think.

[Rolero]

Check out this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?293307-Chasing-the-Philosopher-s-Stone-N-Jolly-s-guide-to-the-Pathfinder-Alchemist) by N. Jolly. Gives very good explanation about the class and his possibilities, specially with grenadier and hyde builds, which are your main interests for what I've read.

If you want to fill a support role, I recomend going with bombs, being the grenadier a great choice for this because of the nasties he can pull of with his alchemical weapon and a Hybridization Funnel. The Mr.Hyde build is awesome if you want to be in the front lines and be the damage focus fighter of the group, but if there is already two candidates for that I don't think it will do very good with the party sinergy.

If you are still focused on being able to disable traps, the trap-finder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder) trait will be more than enough to fill the need. Then again, you have mentioned that your DM only allow traits by feat, but maybe you can bargain with him allowing you to get the trait by getting a drawback for it. If not, the Crypt Breaker is a solid choice due the setting of your campaign and its focus on undead enemies.

[magotter]

Just gonna throw in my 2 copper here:

If you want a support/debuff build, Grenadier is choice du jour. While losing Brew Potion hurts, there's a spell that makes your potions infinite, so you can afford it if you have to actually buy them rather than craft. A secondary would be Beastmorph (and no vivisectionist) to make a switch-hitter. In either case, remember you can also make a great skill monkey, giving you a nice secondary role to fill when not chucking bombs.

Grenadier lets you hit a foe with 3 different saves per round almost right out of the gate. Depending on how much gold you see coming in, your potential opens up when, each round, you are able to fire an Special Arrow, a Bomb, and an Alchemical Reagent with 1 shot. It takes a full-round action, but that's nearly as good as being a beastmorph with a claw/claw/bite routine in terms of attack output.

Here's some basic tips I'd advise:


Stat importance is as follows: INT > DEX > WIS > CON > STR > CHA. Aside from CHA, try not to have any stats below 10, but likewise none really utterly need to be above 10 aside from INT and DEX. Given the 17-point buy (what an odd number) I'd recommend, in order, before racial mods: 10, 14, 12, 17, 12, 7.

For races I'll defer to Jolly's guide: Shoot for Int/Dex races, but you can essentially play towards your fluff rather than crunch here.

for items: Get a bow. Not a Crossbow, not a gun. A BOW. What's that I hear you say? Alchemists don't have proficiency? then GET the proficiency. Buy it as a feat if you have to. Arrows have some of the best options for different stackable powers and debuffs, and as a grenadier your going to make keen use of firing these and making them from scratch. I'll tackle some of my favorite arrows below. You really don't need much in the way of feats except PBS & Precise Shot. Focused Shot will get you a bit more damage per round, but not really necessary; as a support, your main role is to debilitate, not damage. Grenadier gives Precise Bombs for free, reducing feat tax.

I suggest taking Frost Bomb and Explosive Missile as your level 2 and 4 discoveries, and then your Level 1 and 3 feats be Smoke Bomb and Stink Bomb. This alone gives you great potential for hosing either single targets or mobs. You're really gonna be riding that as your bread and butter for a while.

If you so choose, a 1-level dip somewhere in this zone will do you well. Aside from Heirloom Weapon, this is what you will need to do to get Bow Proficiency. While it delays your Alchem-ing a bit, the boons you get for a dip can easily outweigh the cons. My favorites, mechanically, are either Lore Warden or Zen Archer. The former will get you all the Knowledge skills and a bonus feat (to be used on PBS and/or Precise Shot). With this and a single skill-point in every knowledge skill, you turn into one hell of a walking encyclopedia. The Second gives you a massive boost to your saves, and Precise Shot (and you don't even need the pre-req).

You're going to lag a bit here: or, rather, I should say everyone is going to be catching up with you as your progression slows a bit. By now you should be at a minimum Bomb-Arrowing like Link, and if you got the cash to do so, adding reagents and special arrows to end fights VERY fast. If you still plan to be a buffer rather than just a debuffer, This is where you take infusions; I'd put it in the Level 6 slot. I recommend either Fast Bombs or Blinding Bomb for Level 8 to give one more kind of nasty hurt to foes. The former lets you nova a lot of damage or spread out your stink bombs, and the latter is just one more debuff trick. You've already front-loaded a lot of power, so take what you want for feats at 5 and 7.

And once again things get interesting! Fast Bombs should be your Level 9 Feat if you didn't take it in your Level 8 discovery slot. Again, sky's the limit for choices here. I picked Preserve Organs and Mummification for my Level 10 discovery and Level 11 feat, respectively. At Level 12 definitely plan to take Madness Bomb.

After all that? Go with the flow; use what's worked for you thus far. Take some more Arrow Feats, or branch out into other areas: Get a Compsagnathus Familiar made out of dead skin and back hair, and make it shove potions down people's throats. Grow wings and start raining arrows from above. In general, be the freakiest freakshow you can be.


I'm going to sit down and write up a micro-primer on arrows and crafting, and will come back and link it here when done.

[Decatus]

Sounds like good advice. I'll get my bow proficiency from the Grenadier archetype (gives a martial weapon), so I don't HAVE to dip.

Also, I think I'll be focusing on debuffing instead of buffing teammates. Infusions are well and good, but I get so few extracts per day that I may need to wait a bit before it becomes worthwhile to take the ability.