Which ability governs this?

[questionmark693]

I'm making a character that's N/G, very concerned about doing the right thing, but I want him to be very bad at moral and ethical nuances, and so be conflicted a lot, especially with difficult problems. It seems to me I would model that with a low wisdom....but I can see how the argument could be made for intelligence. What do you guys think?

Tl;dr
Are morals governed by INT or WIS?

[Nilehus]

Wisdom, most likely. Easily fooled, not great at thinking of the consequences of his actions, etc. all screams low Wisdom to me.

[1pwny]

I've always thought of it like this:
The 'I' in 'Int' is for IQ.
The 'W' in 'Wis' is for Experience.

Don't ask why 'W' stands for Experience. Its best not to ask.

So to answer your question, ethics isn't necessarily about being book-smart. Its about worldly experience, and how reality conflicts with your morals. So I would say if you are being morally conflicted, you would tend to have lower Wis.

[Andreaz]

I've always thought of it like this:
The 'I' in 'Int' is for IQ.
The 'W' in 'Wis' is for Experience.

Don't ask why 'W' stands for Experience. Its best not to ask.

So to answer your question, ethics isn't necessarily about being book-smart. Its about worldly experience, and how reality conflicts with your morals. So I would say if you are being morally conflicted, you would tend to have lower Wis.

I'd defend the opposite and remind you that ethic is not an intuitive process. Morals are, and weighing factors to consider what is right or wrong according to a code of ethics is pretty much in Intelligence's domain. It's about reasoning, calculating, estimating, discussing and emulating.
Especially when faced with conundrums like that where different "right" beliefs conflict.

[tomandtish]

If you are going to pick one, I suppose wisdom is as good as any. But this is actually something that doesn’t need to be reflected by a low stat. Especially if what you want them to have trouble with is nuances , or being conflicted.

Let’s look at some OotS characters (pulling from Class and Level Geekery):

Elan: Low wisdom, low intelligence. He does seem to sometimes be conflicted on what the right thing to do is (usually which action is “more right”).

Miko: intelligence unknown, but average wisdom (at least). And all the nuance of a brick.

In short, a low ability score doesn’t mean they’ll automatically have problems with it. Likewise, a high one doesn’t mean they’ll automatically get it. Especially if this is a new character, maybe they are isolated. This could be a lack of education and experience, not a lack of INT or WIS.

A Paladin fresh out of training probably has a big blind spot related to this. After a while some are able to adapt and understand that there’s going to be some gray in the world. Others (Miko being a prime example) dig their heels in further, convinced that their truth and way is the only right one. It doesn’t have to mean that she lacks in a mental attribute. It’s just a character flaw (in her case, an ultimately fatal one).

To sum, if you believe that the character is going to have problems with these things indefinitely, such that no amount of life experience will help, and it would require specific long-term remedial training to rectify (i.e: spending rare skill points in knowledge – alignment and ethics. Or stat points.), then express it as a stat. Of course, other things tied to that stat need to be affected as well. That is, the character has an issue with WIS (for example) of which ethical nuances is just one of the ways it manifests.

On the other hand, if this is really the only major blind spot for the character, then it can probably be better handled through role-playing and background.

A good example of this:

Belkar: Low wisdom, low intelligence. He seems quite comfortable in his end of the alignment pool. What he did have trouble with was learning how to control his behavior to keep from getting killed. He’s gradually developing nuanced behavior in “hiding” his evil. This seems to be a role-playing thing more than a stat change.

[Phelix-Mu]

So you can spin this either way, really.

A person could intuitively have a sense of right or wrong, whether through strong empathy and sense of the relationships that bind action to consequence, or some such.

Or, a person could have studied many treatises, had debates, and come to consensus results through careful examination of a sample population. Or formed principles of morality through a rigorous process of deduction. Or similar intellectual process.

So, if you want the opposite, someone with no sense of these things, it could be either low Wisdom or low Intelligence, or both.

I personally would go with low Wisdom, just strikes me as more fun to play.

[Spore]

Are morals governed by INT or WIS?

If you want Rich's opinion, it is definitely Wisdom. I however disagree.

In a sense that morals are not governed by attributes. That's what the alignment chart is for. If you would go for that definition then evil clerics and druids would never exist.

Minion: "I have gathered these slaves for your ritualistic sacrifice my lord."
Evil Cleric: "Why would I sacrifice people? They most likely have families!"

I know that not every evil cleric starts out sacrificing people. But the question still stands. Also as far as I know there is a distinction between amorality and immorality.

[questionmark693]

I wasn't suggesting that a high score implies a good morality, simply a good understanding or ability to apply that understanding

[Troacctid]

Wrestling with a moral dilemma sounds to me like a character with similar scores in both stats, not a high score in one and a low score in the other. If one or the other were dominant, they wouldn't be so conflicted. The high Int character could consider the problem intellectually and gravitate to the logical solution, Spock-style; the high Wis character could consider the problem intuitively and make the decision that feels right, trusting their instincts. Sure, they might still wrestle with it, but they'd be confident in how to approach it. But with equal scores in both, it would be a tug of war between the heart and the mind, you know?

I think your character would have average Wis and average Int. They're not actively bad at it, but they aren't gifted either. Just your everyman with no special insight, trying to do the right thing.

[weckar]

I've always gone by the reasoning that INT is what you know, WIS is how well you can apply it. So for me this goes solidly into the WIS camp.

[HighWater]

I'm making a character that's N/G, very concerned about doing the right thing, but I want him to be very bad at moral and ethical nuances, and so be conflicted a lot, especially with difficult problems. It seems to me I would model that with a low wisdom....but I can see how the argument could be made for intelligence. What do you guys think?

Tl;dr
Are morals governed by INT or WIS?

This is not a mental attribute problem, otherwise you could either never play a conflicted or overzealous Cleric, or a conflicted or overzealous Wizard. After all, a Cleric with below-average Wisdom (<10) cannot function, nor can a Wizard with below average Intelligence (<10).

Roleplay this instead, having difficulty with moral/ethical nuance is not a mental attribute but instead a character-trait.

[Segev]

The stat you want low for this is Wisdom.

What you seem to be asking is not whether a high or low stat makes you a good or bad person, but for what stat makes your inherently good (or evil) person less able to intuitively grasp what the right (or "wrong") choice is in a morally difficult situation.

If it's cut-and-dried, your person is going to easily and always go for the good option. He'll refuse to kill or rob somebody just because somebody else paid him to do so. He'll help the poor and needy out of his own time and money. He'll choose to release the innocent person from captivity over the obviously evil monster, even if the monster offers him a greater reward.

He'll have difficulty when the situation is less clear. If he's high intelligence, he'll be better able to perceive potential consequences of actions and to understand and consider "justifications" and "complications." He'll be able to grasp, clearly, the conundrum present when told that if he doesn't kill this innocent child, a city will be destroyed with all of its inhabitants. He'll follow the logic of the evil monster who says that he'll build an orphanage to save a thousand children from poverty and that that's more good overall than sparing the innocent person instead of said monster. He'll get the ideas presented by the vampire who claims that he does more good for the poor and dispossessed in his shelters, so the few he kills by drinking them dry are more than balanced out.

Because he has lower Wisdom, his conviction in the face of this is shaken. He struggles to logically balance the consequences of his actions: does he do or allow evil now for greater good later (or even now), or does he stand for what he would, on the face of it, think is right, even if it might lead to more evil later?

He IS good, and WANTS to do the right thing. But his intellect is telling him there's a moral calculus to be done, while his conscience is saying both outcomes are undesirable. He lacks the Wisdom to sift it out and come to the conclusion - at least, not easily - that is the "best" action.

[searlefm]

from what you are describing low wisdom, low sense motive, and all skills that could have any forums of morality in there with 0 skill points.
however if you have a neutral guy/girl in there to manipulate you it'll help tho dont go to far as you may actually fall from grace.

[Trasilor]

I'm making a character that's N/G, very concerned about doing the right thing, but I want him to be very bad at moral and ethical nuances, and so be conflicted a lot, especially with difficult problems. It seems to me I would model that with a low wisdom....but I can see how the argument could be made for intelligence. What do you guys think?

Tl;dr
Are morals governed by INT or WIS?

Incredibly intelligent (INT) and perceptive (WIS) philosophers have debated this for a very long time. The idea that people with low INT or WIS would have difficult time with moral question is a false argument. In fact, I think the opposite would be true.

Having too much INT means everything become hyper-rationalized. So much so, that you sometimes fail to see 'right from wrong'.

NPC: Evul Wizard is going to destroy our people. Please help!
PC: Your town consists of 75 homes with 247 people. Combating the wizard would most likely result in a stalemate (wizard teleports) or us losing. Either way, we won't be around when the Evul Wizard unleashes his wrath upon you - as we will be dead or have moved on. As such, we won't help you as the most likely outcome is the same.
NPC: But out homes will be destroyed by the Evul Wizard!
PC: Then I suggest you move...

Having too much WIS means you are so 'in-tune' with everything that you see all sides of the argument -thus making a decision very difficult.

NPC: Evul Wizard is going to destroy our people. Please help!
PC: While I feel your plight, I also understand the needs of the wizard too. His low self-esteem has driven him into developing a complex in which he is compelled to dominate the entire realm. In fact, his entire psyche is so damaged that we should be trying to help make peace with his past rather than trying to destroy him. Understand, he too is a victim here. A victim of society, a society of which you are part of...so in essence you are destroying yourself...
NPC: But out homes will be destroyed by the Evul Wizard!
PC: Consider this change a blessing. You will become one with the natural world again.

My point is, assigning moral problems to INT or WIS is a fallacy. It is a role-playing opportunity

[Telonius]

Well, two problems here. First, is deciding whether something is ethical or not, a function of wisdom or of intelligence. Second, does the experience of moral conflict indicate low intelligence or wisdom.

Second one first ... I'd say that moral certainty suggests either a very high or a very low stat. Very high: if you correctly judge whether something is ethical or not, you don't feel conflicted, you just do what you know is right. Very low: if you incorrectly judge whether something is ethical or not, you also don't feel conflicted; you do what you (incorrectly) think is right. Feelings of conflict would happen only if you aren't sure of the outcome, either because the question really is a super-hard one, or you're just not equipped to give an answer.

The stat that helps decide whether or not something is right, depends on the ethical system you use. If you're carefully weighing evidence and trying to determine the greatest harm to the greatest number, or seeing which deontological rule supersedes the other, you'd probably be using Intelligence. If you're using a more honor-based code, or typically "go with your heart," you'd probably be using Wisdom.