What classes compose the best 4 member party?

[Scorponok]

Was wondering about this today, and the question is, if you could choose your party, what class would you pick, and what are the other 3 classes you would want with you?

Would this be different in an urban/slum setting, a setting where you know the party would do a lot of dungeon delving, a campaign where your party would be going up against a lot of Orcs, and would it also differ depending on what level you start off at? (Say, level 2 vs. level 6.)

For myself, I think I'd choose something like a battle mage sorcerer build, and my ideal party would consist of tank-built fighter, a bard that had good ranged attacks, and a druid that had enhanced summoning. I think this setup can do any of the above I mentioned alright, and don't see a lot of situations where that particular combination classes would be severely outclassed.

[The Grue]

Wizard, Wizard, Wizard and Wizard.

If there's a restriction on duplicate classes, then Cleric, Druid, Wizard and Artificer.

[Gabrosin]

Wizard, Wizard, Wizard and Wizard.

If there's a restriction on duplicate classes, then Cleric, Druid, Wizard and Artificer.

This pretty much ends the thread.

[Sith_Happens]

Spell-to-Power (StP) Erudite, StP Erudite, StP Erudite, and StP Erudite.

Fixed that for you.

[Necroticplague]

Wizard, Wizard, Wizard and Wizard.

If there's a restriction on duplicate classes, then Cleric, Druid, Wizard and Artificer.

Correction: StP Erudite,StP Erudite,StP Erudite,StP Erudite. Like a wizard, but on Complete Cocaine.

If they need to be unique, I'd still stick with prepared casters who can learn way too many spells. Archivist, StP Erudite, Artificer, Druid. The last one is different from the rest in that it doesn't need the weeks of downtime to learn new spells, but it has access to the awesomeness of Wildshape.

Edit: Darn it, I got ninja'd on that first point.

[Chaosvii7]

In terms of sheer versatility? The Cleric/Wizard/Druid/Artificer combo is definitely the best.

But if you want something like a balanced party that doesn't overpower encounters but everybody gets pretty much equal opportunity, probably something like Bard/Binder/Crusader/x, with x being either a Wild-Shaping Mystic Ranger or one of the specialized casters like Beguiler or DN.

Alternatively, a whole party of Bards. One support bard, one debuff bard, one damage bard, and one tank bard. Be a 4-man band. Or a barbershop quartet.

[Divide by Zero]

Cleric with Magic and Spell domains, cleric with War and Strength domains, cloistered cleric with Trickery ad Kobold domains, commoner with Chicken-Infested for comic relief.

[Forrestfire]

Honestly, I think it's more like Wizard, Artificer, StP Erudite, StP Erudite. Get all the spells added to the wizard's book, then swap them over to the erudites.

[Gildedragon]

Factotum / Binder / Swordsage / Totemist

[Phelix-Mu]

I'll go with four psions that can purchase spells as powers from StP erudites that have psychic chirurgery.:smallwink:

More sanely, I would like to posit monk/wizard, clawlock, archery cleric, and bard.

That would be fun!

[Irk]

Fixed that for you.

Correction: StP Erudite,StP Erudite,StP Erudite,StP Erudite. Like a wizard, but on Complete Cocaine.
Actually, if we go with this, it would be Psion, Psion, Psion, Psion. The trick is to get the spell-powers without the limit per day. StP Erudite is famous because of Psionic Chirurgey.

As for the OP, it completely depends, but sheer versatility goes to a bunch of T1 casters, Artificer is particularly notable for its own style of play, but Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Archivist, Ur-Priest, etc. should be technically the best.

[Kazyan]

Was wondering about this today, and the question is, if you could choose your party, what class would you pick, and what are the other 3 classes you would want with you?

Healer (Me), Knight, Lurk, and Soulborn. The DM is thus forced to think about low-tier play instead of using the concept as a punchline, as is usual for optimizers. At the same time, we have the tools to do a little of everything between Healer spells, Lurk powers, and Soulborn soulmelds.

[Phelix-Mu]

Healer (Me), Knight, Lurk, and Soulborn. The DM is thus forced to think about low-tier play instead of using the concept as a punchline, as is usual for optimizers. At the same time, we have the tools to do a little of everything between Healer spells, Lurk powers, and Soulborn soulmelds.

I like your thinking. Always wanted to play a good healer concept. Maybe something off the cuff, too, if the DM would relieve alignment considerations. Like a Healer that only heals people to acquire more data on living creatures, so as to better concoct their eventual replacements. Hehe, a bit of Dr. Frankenstein, a bit of Umbrella Corporation.

[Sith_Happens]

D'oh, can't believe I didn't think of it the first time: Kobold Paladin, Kobold Paladin, Kobold Paladin, and Kobold Paladin.:smallwink:

[Malroth]

I don't think the OP is familliar enough with the nasty tricks of this board to get that one.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Psion, Swordsage, Warblade (or Crusader), um... huh. Actually, I'm not sure what the 4th would be. Bard, maybe?

I guess Bard. I'm looking for something charismatic and social-y, with a lot of versatility and ability to cover the holes in the magic field left by the Psion. Bard isn't a perfect fit.

Basically, my idea is that everything should be a well-made, fun-to-play class, with no more than a 1 tier difference between characters, each with its own specialty but ability to contribute in general. We've got the major roles covered - mage, heavy fighter, and sneaky light fighter/rogue. Ideally, I'd also like to stick to non-battery-powered classes, but I'm willing to forgive the psion, seeing as it's my favorite class in general. I'm neglecting healer, because healing is boring and should be performed by a wand of CLW.

[Raven777]

I guess Bard. I'm looking for something charismatic and social-y, with a lot of versatility and ability to cover the holes in the magic field left by the Psion. Bard isn't a perfect fit.

What about Sorcerer or Beguiler?

[(Un)Inspired]

Healer (Me), Knight, Lurk, and Soulborn. The DM is thus forced to think about low-tier play instead of using the concept as a punchline, as is usual for optimizers. At the same time, we have the tools to do a little of everything between Healer spells, Lurk powers, and Soulborn soulmelds.

I would take this idea and take it even farther. Why not 4 commoners?

The Commoner Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232822-The-Commoner-Handbook) made me really want to play in a commoner campaign someday.

[CIDE]

Truenamer, Monk, Paladin, and Rogue. It fills every role needed.

[Regissoma]

4 Dread Necromancers with 4 respective undead armies.

[RO-Red]

What if we were to limit it to core?

[morkendi]

Congerer into malconvoker, Elven generalist into sevon fold, Melee Cleric into ordained champion, rogue/warlock/unseen seer. Played in this group and rolled through everything with all bases pretty much covered.

[Divide by Zero]

What if we were to limit it to core?

Wizard, wizard, cleric, druid. Do keep in mind that many of the most broken spells are in core.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

What about Sorcerer or Beguiler?

Sorcerer is too close to Psion. (Pure casting class that works dynamically from a small set of spells.) Beguiler just doesn't strike me as being that good a class... I like the idea, but they're too limited against everything mindless or with a good will save. (All of the other classes can pretty much always be useful.)

[Ramza00]

Cloistered Cleric with Kobold Domain and Trickery Domain, aka the rogue and face
Druid aka the fighter
Archivist with 1 level of Wizard aka the divine spellcaster
Elvish Generalist Wizard aka the arcane spellcaster


Both the cleric and druid know all their spells for free. Cloistered Cleric knows the spell secret page so he can provide it for archivist and wizard to make blessed book and time of ancient lore.
Archivist gets all cleric and druids spells added to his spellbook by the party working together
Wizard gets to know all the wizard spells due to time of ancient lore which the party crafts with the sactify relic and craft wondrous item feats.
Wizard and Archivist can cast any spell they know as a full round action due to uncanny forethought. This is why the archivist took 1 level of wizard so he can use the feat spell mastery. Since the party knows all cleric, druid, and wizards spells and they can do so as a full round action they can steam roll any encounter for they have Batman's tool belt.
You do all this with just feats, class levels, gold, and item crafting no magic mart required

[Svata]

Wizard, wizard, cleric, druid.

Funnily enough, that's exactly what I sai when I read the thread title. After a moment to think, I swapped a wizard for a sorcerer, because occasionally you need some pure damage at range, and sorcerer has access to tricks the wizard doesn't. Mainly the Arcane Fusion spells and Wings of Cover/Flurry.

[Divide by Zero]

Funnily enough, that's exactly what I sai when I read the thread title. After a moment to think, I swapped a wizard for a sorcerer, because occasionally you need some pure damage at range, and sorcerer has access to tricks the wizard doesn't. Mainly the Arcane Fusion spells and Wings of Cover/Flurry.

I do actually prefer sorcerers to wizards in general for that reason, but the post I responded to was asking about core, and sorcerer doesn't really have any unique options there. It is still arguably a superior blaster, but probably not enough so to be worth the loss of extra utility.

[TheFamilarRaven]

I'm pretty sure 4 samurai should be enough for any situation. Especially if it calls for a mass stare-down of epic proportions.

Edit: But seriously, to answer the OP. (my) perfect party is one that synergies. So yeah, (speaking out of core) either full on Wizard, cleric, druid sorcerer (if each class had to be unique), so that every member can pretty much handle anything on their own, but can also make up for any weaknesses other members have, (at the time, i mean. They ARE all prep casters ... 'cept the sorc. But sorcs are still pretty powerful.)

[Malroth]

you need 3 more and you still are limited to fighting off bandits

[TheFamilarRaven]

you need 3 more and you still are limited to fighting off bandits


And even then only, like what? 3 survive?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

What if we were to limit it to core?

I had a fun concept, but DM's who call for core only are asking for trouble.

Cleric of Oidammara as the skill monkey. Beg for cloistered and take Rogue at level 1 if they say no maybe one or two more Rogue levels along the way. Also ask for Divine varient to Arcane Trickster.

Cleric of Bocob for to use Arcane items and cast important spells from domains.

Cleric of either Corellon, Elhonna or Fharlangha as an archer or a Cleric of Pelor to be a stereotypical Cleric.

Druid beatstick/BFC.

or

4 Druids

My fun idea is either 4 DFA Bardblades or the DFA and 1 standard.

[Gildedragon]

a 4 cleric party is a pretty solid choice.

Ranger, Bard, Barbarian, Paladin can be a pretty solid group
2 faces, about 1.5 spellcaster's worth of casting, 3 beatsticks, fair number of skills...
getting UMD there somehow for filling in any gaps might be good.

[Hurnn]

Druid, Druid, Wizard, Sorc. 4 buff bot controllers 2 tanks(4 once wild shape comes online) party face and wizard can skill monkey anything that cant be solved with magic. Could swap the Sorc for a cleric, Cha isn't a bad stat for them so he could party face and you hen have every spell list.

[weckar]

I'd ideally play in a party of just rogues and oracles. Somehow they get the most RPing done, I find.

[Sartharina]

Well, for a party that looks like a traditional party, I'd go Batman Wizard, God Wizard, Battle Cleric, Support Cleric.

[Inevitability]

I would take this idea and take it even farther. Why not 4 commoners?

The Commoner Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232822-The-Commoner-Handbook) made me really want to play in a commoner campaign someday.

I once ran one. It was pretty boring, because it was mainly in a city. The game died after a few months, because, well, playing normal people in a normal city is boring.

If I were to do it again, I'd make it like a bunch of commoners accidentally ended up in a dungeon, and have to fight themselves out.

But if you run that campaign on these boards, please PM me. I'd love to play.

[Southern Cross]

Magister, Magister, Magister & Magister!!!!
In Arcana Evolved, the closest thing to the traditional party would probably be Magister, Greenbond, Warmain and Akashic.

[eggynack]

Gotta keep arbitrarily druid shape'd appearances, so let's go with a four druid army. You get one focusing on each major druid class feature. Animal companion druid is a dragonborn desert half-orc with VoP, obviously running exalted companion, and slightly less obviously running both natural bond and companion spellbond. There's also a bit of a wild empathy sub-focus, so that's neat, and the big wild shape feat in use is also obviously exalted. There might also be room for lion of talisid levels, if I'm in the mood. Summoning druid is the classic shifter, with the first and fourth substitution levels, and four levels of moonspeaker in the middle. Pretty basic, running as many good summoning feats as he can get his hands on, likely including both greenbound and rashemi if there's room. Let's say that that one's wild shape feat is dragon, because I'm saving aberration for next.

Third druid is magic druid, whose race is dragonborn anthro bat, because we need all of the spells, I guess. He needs the holt warden + contemplative dips, for arcane power, and let's toss in nightbringer initiate so we get some of that stealth component in the party. As I've mentioned, this one's running aberration wild shape, because double spells a round is awesome, and by tossing in a hathran dip, this fellow can cast spontaneously, twice a round, off of the entire druid list. Fun times for all, though it necessitates a race change. I rather like the idea of this druid being neutral, because of somewhat fuller spell access, and since I like the combination with aberration wild shape, there'll be a bit of a necromancy subtheme going on. The last druid is the wild shape druid, and for him, maybe master of many forms. There's a lot of power running around, and it might be nice to have something unique going on on the front lines, even if it's a bit less powerful. I could always skip that though, just go with a bunch of wild shape feats, but those don't synergize particularly well. Alternatively, there's always planar shepherd running around, so I could do that with a plane that isn't borked to hell. That'd work, and it'd mean that wild shape druid isn't craptacular. In that case, I suppose I'd hand him frozen wild shape, just to complete the cycle.

So, that basically sums up the four druid party. They're not necessarily as good as a more mixed party, and the wild shape druid is still a bit up in the air, but it's pretty sweet. The biggest problem is probably that every round takes up all of the time in the universe, with summoning druid naturally adding monsters all the time, magic druid acting twice a round, animal companion druid naturally also putting focus on two actions each round, and wild shape druid probably not contributing as much in that way unless he uses dal-quor (which he probably won't). In any case, it's a pretty stylish setup, with the arcane, divine, melee, and stealth roles all filled up, usually by multiple characters, usually with those characters filling those multiple roles simultaneously.

[Malroth]

why desert orc VOP for the animal companion druid? Wouldn't a Strongheart Halfling Mounted Combat build work better for whatever creature you're bringing into the dungeon?

[eggynack]

why desert orc VOP for the animal companion druid? Wouldn't a Strongheart Halfling Mounted Combat build work better for whatever creature you're bringing into the dungeon?
Desert half-orc, actually, and it's nifty because, by taking the substitution levels, you get to apply free toughness to your animal companion, you get wild empathy checks based on strength, which is great given the fact that you get good strength in wild shape forms, and you get augment summoning for a wild shape use, which isn't too relevant to this, but it is cool. I also rather dislike halfling substitution levels, because the relevant one here trades away some spontaneous summoning options for spontaneous options that are not nearly as good. Not a particularly huge fan of mounted combat in general, either, but that seems like a different issue. In any case, you get to be a big, burly, friend to all living things, and that's some cool business right there, especially neat because you also happen to get some not cross-class intimidate ranks out of the bargain. Really solid substitution levels, those.

[thethird]

Personally I would run a human party devoted to tenebrous:

Psionic Artificer with one level of Ardent for Magic Mantle and two level of chameleon (for a floating feat)
Archivist with a level of binder, anima mage and tenebrous apostate
Sha'ir 3 / Shadowcaster 3 / Noctumancer 10 / Mystic Theurge 7
Warlock into Ur-Priest and Eldritch Disciple

It goes more or less like this: Yes, we have that spell/power/mystery/invocation.

Alternatively for a more in check power level a full bard party is fun.

Star Elf Bard 20 With inspire courage optimization and elven dilettante for skill monkeying. Add healing hymn just because.
Half Elf Bard with the substitution levels, a sprinkle of marshal and full levels of exemplar, the diplomonster.
Spellscale bard into lyric thaumaturge and sublime chord
Warblade with bard and song of the white raven into war chanter...

[Vaz]

Fixed that for you.

No, Psion, Psion, Psion, Psion.

Anything a StP Erudite can do, a Psion can do better. Expanded Knowledge and Psychic Chirurgery gets around that.

[qwertyu63]

I know it's not quite as powerful as the other things suggested, but for a balanced party:

Warblade/Factotum/Wizard/Archivist

Give the Warblade Knowledge Devotion so he cares more about his Int (the factotum likely wants it too), and you have the badass know-it-alls.

[DarkSonic1337]

I'd go with

Artificer (innate access to every spell for crafting...so make scrolls for people to learn)
Archivist/Geomancer (craft divine scrolls from arcane spells and vice versa)
Spell to Power Erudite
????

PROFIT!

[lytokk]

Not going to be the most powerful party, but I like Crusader, Rogue, Wildshape Ranger and Sorceror. Rogue could be replaced by some other skillmonkey stealth class depending on the DM's love of traps. Everyone is close to the same power level, no ones really going to outshine anyone else at their chosen specialty, and all of the basics are covered.

Though I would agree that druidx4, wizardx4 or clericx4 would be the most powerful party, but the idea of best would mean the most entertaining, as opposed to power.

[BWR]

Halfling thief, dwarf fighter, elf wizard, human cleric.

[Lans]

D'oh, can't believe I didn't think of it the first time: Kobold Paladin, Kobold Paladin, Kobold Paladin, and Kobold Paladin.:smallwink:

On a related note, Kobold Beguilar, Warmage, Dread Necromancer, and Sorcerer with the right sovereign archtypes. Three characters with spontaneous access to all the cleric or druid spells, and a character who casts sorcerer spells at 3 levels above his level.

[Svata]

On a related note, Kobold Beguilar, Warmage, Dread Necromancer, and Sorcerer with the right sovereign archtypes. Three characters with spontaneous access to all the cleric or druid spells, and a character who casts sorcerer spells at 3 levels above his level.

How is Rainbow Servant cheese related to pun-pun?

[ben-zayb]

Healer (Me), Knight, Lurk, and Soulborn. The DM is thus forced to think about low-tier play instead of using the concept as a punchline, as is usual for optimizers. At the same time, we have the tools to do a little of everything between Healer spells, Lurk powers, and Soulborn soulmelds.This is pure win!

My own version, with the same concept in mind, would be Divine Mind, Dragon Shaman, Ninja, and Shadowcaster.

[Flickerdart]

Healer (Me), Knight, Lurk, and Soulborn. The DM is thus forced to think about low-tier play instead of using the concept as a punchline, as is usual for optimizers. At the same time, we have the tools to do a little of everything between Healer spells, Lurk powers, and Soulborn soulmelds.
I don't know if a party that "forces" the DM to do anything could be considered "best" by any measure.

[ThatKreacher]

Binder, Binder, Binder, Binder.

[Kazyan]

I don't know if a party that "forces" the DM to do anything could be considered "best" by any measure.

The word could apply to any party, though. I don't have to justify my desire for a change of pace.

[Kennisiou]

StP Erudite, Psion, Psion, Psion

Fixed that for you.

Fixed your fix.

Remember, there are powers that let you put powers you know into others minds. Only one character needs to take the exp hits and other penalties of having converted all those spells over. The others can just learn the spells from him as powers and wind up manifesting them better, too, since StP Erudite pays powerpoints to cast their spell powers and has spells per day, but a psion manifesting a spell as a power just pays the power point cost.

Maybe 2 StP Erudites if you're worried about the first one falling behind from eating too many of the costs of converting spells if they're the only one doing it.

Alternately, 4 Psi Artificers can do everything the StP Erudite does but with psionic items instead and they have class features that make eating EXP costs not matter anywhere near as much.

[Haluesen]

Factotum / Binder / Swordsage / Totemist

I very much like the sound of this team. :smallbiggrin: Very flavorful, very effective without being all Batman/God.


Healer (Me), Knight, Lurk, and Soulborn. The DM is thus forced to think about low-tier play instead of using the concept as a punchline, as is usual for optimizers. At the same time, we have the tools to do a little of everything between Healer spells, Lurk powers, and Soulborn soulmelds.

It's an intriguing idea, but I'd say Incarnate instead of Soulborn. Soulborn just aren't very fun to me. :smallfrown:


I would take this idea and take it even farther. Why not 4 commoners?

The Commoner Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232822-The-Commoner-Handbook) made me really want to play in a commoner campaign someday.

Depends on how the game was ran but it could be very fun. I would love to be in one of those too. :smallbiggrin: I was for awhile, but the DM had other things come up and couldn't keep it going. And we lost a player or 2 before that. :smallfrown: It was really a shame, they made for very flavorful character without being overly weak.


I once ran one. It was pretty boring, because it was mainly in a city. The game died after a few months, because, well, playing normal people in a normal city is boring.

If I were to do it again, I'd make it like a bunch of commoners accidentally ended up in a dungeon, and have to fight themselves out.

But if you run that campaign on these boards, please PM me. I'd love to play.

I'd second this. :smallbiggrin:


I don't know if a party that "forces" the DM to do anything could be considered "best" by any measure.

Well how I see it is that there is some degree of "forcing" on both sides. The party makes their team and the DM runs the world. This forces the DM to fit to the players and not intentionally overpower them or go for the kill just because they didn't make the "best" team, but it also forces the players to respect the DM and his or her world enough to not be huge pains, to actually play the game cooperatively, and not to be Chaotic Stupid, for fear of ruining the game for everyone involved. Wherever there are groups of people working to one end, there is a forced compromise that hopefully leads to mutual benefit to all.

At least that is how I think of it.

[Vaz]

Fixed your fix.

Remember, there are powers that let you put powers you know into others minds. Only one character needs to take the exp hits and other penalties of having converted all those spells over. The others can just learn the spells from him as powers and wind up manifesting them better, too, since StP Erudite pays powerpoints to cast their spell powers and has spells per day, but a psion manifesting a spell as a power just pays the power point cost.

Maybe 2 StP Erudites if you're worried about the first one falling behind from eating too many of the costs of converting spells if they're the only one doing it.

Alternately, 4 Psi Artificers can do everything the StP Erudite does but with psionic items instead and they have class features that make eating EXP costs not matter anywhere near as much.
Unless the Erudite is epic, there is little benefit as opposed just hiring him to PsiChirurgeory it into the parties mind. (Buy him a though bottle, though to sweeten the deal).

[Malroth]

yeah but if there are no NPC spell to power Erudites one or more PC's is going to have to suck it up to be the parties arcane translators or the whole group of Psions are going to be worse off than a party of 4 sorcerers.

[Flickerdart]

The word could apply to any party, though. I don't have to justify my desire for a change of pace.
I'm not saying you're not allowed to have desires, but this is a thread about "the best party" and not "a party I want to play." As a player who is also frequently a DM, I would personally neither have fun being in such a party, nor have fun running encounters for them, due to the limited range of challenges a party with so few options can handle. More importantly though, characters of such narrow scope will lead to a party where it is very difficult for the DM to make encounters where more than one party member has a useful competence, and a game of "pass the spotlight" doesn't seem to me to be anywhere near as enjoyable as one where everyone has something to do all the time.

[Kazyan]

I took a creative interpretation of "best" as "most fun". That changes all the time, I suppose. There are plenty of reasons to dislike playing with the Tier 5 party. Still, I imagine some people would feel fine playing cheerleader for out-of-combat scenarios often if it meant they got some time to feel special. On the DM's side, again there are legitimate issues, but a few would like not having to worry about the "Who gets to invalidate my encounter in a new and unexpected way this time?" minigame which happened the last time I DM'd. (Three Tier 1s and a DMM Persist cohort...)

It all depends on the players.

[tyriuth]

Going with a less OP option:
Beguiler - Trapfinding
Wiz - God
Duskblade - Tank
Bard - Face/Healing
Did someone ring the local mage guild?

Though I feel as though Dread Necro could replace either the Duskblade or the Bard (Get everyone to be necropolitan or that feat who's name I forget).


Beguiler just doesn't strike me as being that good a class... I like the idea, but they're too limited against everything mindless or with a good will save. (All of the other classes can pretty much always be useful.)

One forgets how a good illusion needs to be placed with care, even a 1st level character's silent image will go unnoticed if good thought is used in it's placement. How does that mindless skeleton know the difference between a wall of stone and a mere illusion?


a 4 cleric party is a pretty solid choice.

And for some reason I'm reminded of playing FF1 with 4 white mages...

[Haluesen]

Going with a less OP option:
Beguiler - Trapfinding
Wiz - God
Duskblade - Tank
Bard - Face/Healing
Did someone ring the local mage guild?

Though I feel as though Dread Necro could replace either the Duskblade or the Bard (Get everyone to be necropolitan or that feat who's name I forget).

The feat is Tomb-Tainted Soul. :smallsmile: My group's Dread Necro loves it. And I think that would make a pretty fun team with everyone having a lot they could do. So kudos for the thoughtfulness.

[Gildedragon]

Going with a less OP option:
Beguiler - Trapfinding
Wiz - God
Duskblade - Tank
Bard - Face/Healing
Did someone ring the local mage guild?

Though I feel as though Dread Necro could replace either the Duskblade or the Bard (Get everyone to be necropolitan or that feat who's name I forget).


Tomb tainted soul

Edit: Shadow-sun-ninja-touch-of-the-shadow-sun-touched

[Lans]

How is Rainbow Servant cheese related to pun-pun?

Your taking advantage of the kobold race in both cases, and its not RS cheese.\, unless your using it as a catch all get clerics spell list way

[Donny_Green]

Fred Astaire Wizard. Conjurer Archivist. WarBlade. and Bard.

[malonkey1]

Eldritch Claw Warlock (beatstick), Dragonfire Adept (Battlefield Controller), Factotum (face/skillmonkey), Warblade/Rainbow Servant (melee/healer)

Here, we have a balanced but effective team that covers the roles a party needs while still allowing a broad range of challenges for the DM to throw at them.

[Vogonjeltz]

Was wondering about this today, and the question is, if you could choose your party, what class would you pick, and what are the other 3 classes you would want with you?

If I have to choose, I suppose I'd give Fighter a go. Rogue, Cleric, Wizard for the other three.


Would this be different in an urban/slum setting, a setting where you know the party would do a lot of dungeon delving, a campaign where your party would be going up against a lot of Orcs, and would it also differ depending on what level you start off at? (Say, level 2 vs. level 6.)

Urban Slum: No, their abilities are all useful there.
Dungeon Delving: No, their abilities are all useful there.
Lotsa Orcs: No, their abilities are all useful there.
Level: No I don't think so.


For myself, I think I'd choose something like a battle mage sorcerer build, and my ideal party would consist of tank-built fighter, a bard that had good ranged attacks, and a druid that had enhanced summoning. I think this setup can do any of the above I mentioned alright, and don't see a lot of situations where that particular combination classes would be severely outclassed.

I think you'd have trouble with traps. Scenario that TPKs your party: Room with anti-magic field, or building with Forbiddance (prevents summons from triggering traps). Trap buries you alive. Nobody on the team has the means to find or disable these traps, and they are fatal.

Ninja, Scout, Spell-Thief, Beguiler, and Factotum can substitute for the Rogue, but only because they all have trap finding.

[Faily]

Team Cleric. Party composed entirely of Clerics (or Favored Soul/Oracle, and Druid).

Go Team Cleric!

[nedz]

Warrior, Valkyrie, Wizard and Elf

More seriously: any four classes of roughly equivalent tiers. 4 Monks can make for an entertaining game — which is what it should be all about.

[Judge_Worm]

Only core classes, no PrC, no supplements-
At level 5-: Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger
At level 15+: Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Rogue*
*high level rogues can venture into straight cheese territory and balance a party of otherwise casters out

[eggynack]

Only core classes, no PrC, no supplements-
At level 5-: Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger
At level 15+: Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Rogue*
*high level rogues can venture into straight cheese territory and balance a party of otherwise casters out
I'd just swap the rogue out for a bard, and use that same party for the low level game. You get a bunch of melee force between the cleric and druid, buffed by the bard, and bards help to fill in the occasional skill monkey/face/whatever role that a core caster might have a bit of trouble with. I don't really know what would let the rogue fit in in the high level party, incidentally, as they don't really need some extra guy to use wands.

[Flickerdart]

Room with anti-magic field, or building with Forbiddance (prevents summons from triggering traps).
Dispel the Forbiddance, Earthquake the building, or go ethereal and phase around the room. If you must, bind or dominate some minions and send them into the grinder, Pied Piper style.

[toapat]

D'oh, can't believe I didn't think of it the first time: Kobold Paladin, Kobold Paladin, Kobold Paladin, and Kobold Paladin.:smallwink:

whats with this kobold paladin craze?

as for my party:

Paladin 6/Fist of Raziel 7/Ruby Kngiht Vindicator (with battleblessing and SotAO)
Spellthief (how do you optimize these guys though?)
Adept
Swift Hunter

(assume everyone is running similar levels of otpimization to the paladin)

[eggynack]

whats with this kobold paladin craze?

It is the traditional entry point for pun-pun, and so it is also often used as shorthand for that selfsame TO construct.

[Judge_Worm]

I'd just swap the rogue out for a bard, and use that same party for the low level game. You get a bunch of melee force between the cleric and druid, buffed by the bard, and bards help to fill in the occasional skill monkey/face/whatever role that a core caster might have a bit of trouble with. I don't really know what would let the rogue fit in in the high level party, incidentally, as they don't really need some extra guy to use wands.
I incidentally forgot about bards. As for rogues, a team face, a sneak attacker/distraction in melee range, the guy who falls from space and takes no damage, oh and the guy who just dodged a nuclear explosion at point blank range. And the typical trapfinding/lockpicking routine, so the casters don't have to waste spells on it. Bards can do all this too, and I'm slightly upset I forgot about them:smallfrown:, their illusions and bardic knowledge add even more to the team. And I just don't like casters at low level. Whoop-de-do I have prestidigitation and magic missile, not like those are useful or anything. At least my 9hp at level 3 isn't low or anything.

[eggynack]

Whoop-de-do I have prestidigitation and magic missile, not like those are useful or anything. At least my 9hp at level 3 isn't low or anything.
That's not really an accurate description of low level casters. Your average core druid or cleric is going to be running 10 HP at level one, and the 3rd level wizard is going to have about 15 HP by level three. Simultaneously, all three are doing things like silent image, entangle, and protection from evil, which tend to do more than a fighter. Also simultaneously, the first level druid has a riding dog animal companion which is likely packing more HP and AC than the fighter of that level. Druids start the game far superior to a fighter. Wizards are quite a bit more fragile in core, but they have awesome abilities that make up for it. Clerics aren't my favorite class, but they aren't fragile in the least, can beat face reasonably, and have a solid spell list.

[Scorponok]

I can understand the love of Wizards at level-6, but at level-2? C'mon man!


Warrior, Valkyrie, Wizard and Elf


I like this answer the best so far! :smallcool:

[eggynack]

I can understand the love of Wizards at level-6, but at level-2? C'mon man!

Yes, at level 2. They're more fragile than I'd like, but they bring things to the table that no other class in the game is capable of. Silent image alone is enough to justify a slot on the roster, and their list is far more expansive than that. This becomes doubly true out of core, where wizards shift from one of the most fragile classes to one of the least.

[Silva Stormrage]

I can understand the love of Wizards at level-6, but at level-2? C'mon man!



I like this answer the best so far! :smallcool:

Sleep + Color Spray. Wizard are ludicrous at level 1 too.

Lets see. For me, STP Erudite, Artificer, ClericZilla, Wizard. That should be pretty good but its pretty boring mashup of tier 1's.

Assuming a party I would play in an actual campaign. Dread Necromancer (Minionmancer + Enervation Optimization), Bard (DFI + Requiem), Artificer (Crafting), Cleric (DMM Persist Buffs). Hordes of Undead Buffed with Bard + Cleric Buffs would be really scarily efficient. Artificer to break WBL for utility and everyone is undead for healing. I think that would work decently.

[Vogonjeltz]

Dispel the Forbiddance, Earthquake the building, or go ethereal and phase around the room. If you must, bind or dominate some minions and send them into the grinder, Pied Piper style.

Ethereal travel is blocked by forbiddance, dispel magic may not be an option (especially if this is just an ancient warding by a higher level caster), and if you're destroying the tomb you might as well just skip it.

I like the chutzpah on binding/domination though :)
Probably not an option for a good character, using the guy a trap bait.

*wizard party of 4 is kind of hosed against undead. That's why they pretty much need the cleric, but that still doesn't do much for the traps (hence the rogue).

[Silva Stormrage]

Ethereal travel is blocked by forbiddance, dispel magic may not be an option (especially if this is just an ancient warding by a higher level caster), and if you're destroying the tomb you might as well just skip it.

I like the chutzpah on binding/domination though :)
Probably not an option for a good character, using the guy a trap bait.

*wizard party of 4 is kind of hosed against undead. That's why they pretty much need the cleric, but that still doesn't do much for the traps (hence the rogue).

Wait why are wizards hosed against undead? Turn undead is pretty bad except for Sun Domain optimization and for fueling DMM. You really can't turn and destroy anything CR appropriate. And wizards can just go full mailman and be plenty efficient at taking undead out.

[toapat]

Wait why are wizards hosed against undead?

i think the logic is that undead are immune to Fort saves and mind effecting (and thus by extention, most effects that use will saves)

[Sith_Happens]

i think the logic is that undead are immune to Fort saves and mind effecting (and thus by extention, most effects that use will saves)

You mean there are Will-save spells besides Glitterdust and Slow?:smallconfused:

[eggynack]

i think the logic is that undead are immune to Fort saves and mind effecting (and thus by extention, most effects that use will saves)
That logic doesn't seem to apply all that well given a wizard's access to grease and silent image. Those won't work infinitely well against an intelligent undead, but by that point we're probably past level one territory, and options open up by a lot.

[Silva Stormrage]

That logic doesn't seem to apply all that well given a wizard's access to grease and silent image. Those won't work infinitely well against an intelligent undead, but by that point we're probably past level one territory, and options open up by a lot.

Also turn undead is terrible at low levels without items like rod of defiance and lyre of restful soul. A level 1 cleric has a hard time trying to turn a single human zombie.

[eggynack]

Also turn undead is terrible at low levels without items like rod of defiance and lyre of restful soul. A level 1 cleric has a hard time trying to turn a single human zombie.
Well, the low level cleric does have the advantage that hitting someone with a morningstar is generally a reasonable plan, and spontaneous cure might help there. Still doesn't seem like the wizard party is screwed there though, especially because that many wizards is bound to have a spell that'll do stuff.

[Flickerdart]

Lo and behold, for I have rendered my judgment unto the quandary of this thread. Verily.

The best 4-member party is a party composed entirely of members of the same class. This mostly applies to Barbarians, Bards, Rangers, Wizards, and Clerics, where there is an enormous flexibility in terms of ACFs that grant them abilities of another class. All-wizard party? Animal Companion ACF on one of them gets you a beefy body, Illusionist ACF on another makes for quite a potent sneak. All-barbarian horde? Trapkiller ACF! Archer ACF! Spirit Fox Totem! All-ranger squad? Archery! TWF! THF!

With enough book-diving, these classes can cover most roles the party needs - and yet still be enough of the base class that the DM can easily find something everyone is good at and spread that spotlight around.

[Haluesen]

Tomb tainted soul

Edit: Shadow-sun-ninja-touch-of-the-shadow-sun-touched

Wow I think that is the first time I have ever been able to pull that off. :smallbiggrin:


Wait why are wizards hosed against undead? Turn undead is pretty bad except for Sun Domain optimization and for fueling DMM. You really can't turn and destroy anything CR appropriate. And wizards can just go full mailman and be plenty efficient at taking undead out.

Maybe this is a bit off the topic, but do you know of any way to fix the limited use of turn undead? It is a very interesting ability in concept, if it only actually worked well. Have you seen any way anywhere to fix this?



Also as for back on topic, I would say that the best 4 member party, without just being all "Tier 1's because Tier 1's rule" would be Bard for social skills and some types of magic, Factotum for other skills and some backup combat ability, Archivist for a very diverse spell selection that covers holes in the bard's setup as well as having some fairly interesting class abilities, and either a Duskblade, Barbarian, or Totemist for pure damage dealing (plus a couple little side useful things too). I feel like that group is fairly well balanced.

[Malroth]

Archivist is pretty much at the top of tier 1 and would not fit in with those others power wise

[Kane0]

I'd like to see something like a Warlock, DFA/Dragon Shaman, Warblade/Crusader and bard/incarnate.

[Dread_Head]

Spellthief (how do you optimize these guys though?)


The Trickster Spellthief variant (some dragon issue) gives the casting progression of a bard and all bard spells available to choose as well in return for trapfinding, 2 skill points a level, some class skills and any progressions to sneak attack.

Rogue 1 / Trickster Spellthief 9 / Unseen Seer 10 would be pretty decent.

The other way to optimise Spellthief is to only take a few levels and then progress spellthieving with a casting class using the Master Spellthief feat.

For a spellthief you'll probably be focusing less on stealing spells (because that relies on fighting spellcasters) and more on borrowing your allies spells to cast. Tag a spell off a friendly caster before each combat and give them extra actions by doing so. Or get leadership and recruit lots of low level casters and borrow spells off them to convert into more useful spells you know or ones from a domain using Godsblood Spelltheft (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606). Act like a spontaneous conversion for any caster in your party, learn the spells that'll be used regularly then let your party members prepare more niche spells and steal them if they don't come up but something you know would be useful.



In terms of my favourite 4 man party I'd go something like Fey Bard optimised for melee and taking Exalted Companion for a unicorn mount and maybe dipping Beastmaster and taking Natural Bond to bump up it's progression.
A normal Bard focused on IC optimisation, face skills and casting.
A Factotum for the skill monkey role and backup casting.
Either an Archivist or Cloistered Cleric for divine casting, I know they're considerably more powerful but there's not a T3 divine caster and the flexibility of a T1 will really fill any gaps in the party.

[AnonymousPepper]

DWK Desert Loredrake Mailman Sorc+Artificer+Archivist into Hathran+StPErudite.

Reasoning: Nobody beats the Mailman for DD. Artificer can let everyone break WBL and in particular completely break into smithereens what was left of balance for the Mailman via Knowstone spam, allowing him to be nearly as versatile as a Wizard but with the unparelleled DD focus of the Mailman. Archivist+Hathran for spontaneous casting of every divine spell in the game assuming they can get Teleport and Acorn of Far Travel. StPErudite because just lol.

[ddude987]

VoP Monk only, no items, final destination

[Haluesen]

Archivist is pretty much at the top of tier 1 and would not fit in with those others power wise

I actually forget this pretty often. Probably because to be honest most of the time I don't do what usually happens, using prestige class spell lists to get higher level spells at lower levels. And I don't do most other divine spell tricks really. I'd see that as fitting fairly well with the others if it stuck to a well-defined roll or two. But, to be fair, it is a class I probably have not used enough to really get down well. But it could still fit with the others.

[eggynack]

I actually forget this pretty often. Probably because to be honest most of the time I don't do what usually happens, using prestige class spell lists to get higher level spells at lower levels. And I don't do most other divine spell tricks really. I'd see that as fitting fairly well with the others if it stuck to a well-defined roll or two. But, to be fair, it is a class I probably have not used enough to really get down well. But it could still fit with the others.
Even without gaining access to spells at lower levels than normal, you're still talking about a class that casts off of both the cleric and druid lists at least, and probably some others without hitting a particularly silly point. Just one of the first two lists is almost certainly enough for tier one status, even with the less potent class features and need to write spells down, and getting both, and whatever else you can scrounge together, is pretty crazy. The other stuff definitely makes things more interesting, and you can do a lot of wacky stuff with the class, but as long as you put together a reasonable spell list with whatever resources you have, you're going to end up with a pretty big power divide.

[malonkey1]

I actually forget this pretty often. Probably because to be honest most of the time I don't do what usually happens, using prestige class spell lists to get higher level spells at lower levels. And I don't do most other divine spell tricks really. I'd see that as fitting fairly well with the others if it stuck to a well-defined roll or two. But, to be fair, it is a class I probably have not used enough to really get down well. But it could still fit with the others.

Yeah, Archivist is pretty potent. It's also really good with Wizard, Theurge classes, and early entry tricks: Human Wizard 1 with Precocious Apprentice & Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard, so you can't fall below CL 1, not necessary if your 3rd level is wizard), then Archivist 1, then a level in anything so you can get Alternate Source Spell for your level 3 feat. Now you can prepare your lone 2nd level Wizard spell as divine or arcane, so then at level 4 you can get into MT. If you wanted, you could make your 3rd level a level in Bard and take Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) and Open Chakra (Feet) so you can then get into Fochlucan Lyrist.

[Haluesen]

Even without gaining access to spells at lower levels than normal, you're still talking about a class that casts off of both the cleric and druid lists at least, and probably some others without hitting a particularly silly point. Just one of the first two lists is almost certainly enough for tier one status, even with the less potent class features and need to write spells down, and getting both, and whatever else you can scrounge together, is pretty crazy. The other stuff definitely makes things more interesting, and you can do a lot of wacky stuff with the class, but as long as you put together a reasonable spell list with whatever resources you have, you're going to end up with a pretty big power divide.

I admit I kinda sorta know this. But I have a sad confession to make. I...don't know how to optimize spellcasters! :smalleek:

This is not a joke. Well it is but a truthful one. I have never ever been good at really using wizards or clerics or any other tier 1 or 2 spellcaster. I play them at about tier 3 levels. I dunno, just never been able to do it. All of them tend to end up just picking up the slack for the rest of the team, filling in holes. It is somewhat shameful, to be honest. :smallredface: I've never been able to use the cleric, druid, or wizard/sorcerer spell lists all that effectively, other than a few spells here and there from other books.


Yeah, Archivist is pretty potent. It's also really good with Wizard, Theurge classes, and early entry tricks: Human Wizard 1 with Precocious Apprentice & Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard, so you can't fall below CL 1, not necessary if your 3rd level is wizard), then Archivist 1, then a level in anything so you can get Alternate Source Spell for your level 3 feat. Now you can prepare your lone 2nd level Wizard spell as divine or arcane, so then at level 4 you can get into MT. If you wanted, you could make your 3rd level a level in Bard and take Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) and Open Chakra (Feet) so you can then get into Fochlucan Lyrist.

More tricks that I have honestly never heard of, never thought of, never could have imagined. I am really a bad caster. :smallredface: Though I really really like that last one, makes me really want to roll up another bard now. :smallbiggrin:


So to both of you, and anyone else who writes next to this foolishness of mine, know that my reason for seeing some casters as equal to tier 3 classes is because I have only ever learned to play them that way. Never had anyone to show me all these tricks and ways to use spells, and never was good at figuring it out myself. So there you have it.

I am Haluesen, and I am a bad optimizer. :smallfrown:

[Incanur]

Wizards are often pretty meh at level 2 unless they're focused specialist conjurers with abrupt jaunt, Cloudy Conjuration, and Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll (martial wizard variant). I wouldn't want all-wizard party if it were an option. Assuming a optimization but not theoretical optimization perspective, I'd definitely want a druid, because the perception skills and the animal companion matter a lot at level 2.

So, assuming we're starting at level 2, it's okay to be evil, the campaign place in Faerun, and short-term survival matters the most, here's my party:

Dragonwrought kobold cloistered cleric of Kurtulmak - skillmonkey and caster
Dragonwrought kobold sorcerer - going for incantatrix
Strongheart halfling druid - melee and caster
Strongheart halfling focused specialist conjurer as above

For nonevil party that get totally ridiculous at level 7 or so, I'd do the following:

Strongheart halfling druid - melee and caster
Strongheart halfling cloistered cleric of Mystra - going for dweomerkeepr
Strongheart halfling transmutation domain wizard - going for incantatrix
Strongheart halfling abjurer - going for master specialist and initiate of the sevenfold veil

[malonkey1]

I admit I kinda sorta know this. But I have a sad confession to make. I...don't know how to optimize spellcasters! :smalleek:

Don't feel bad. You read enough threads, post enough, and you pick it up. I'm not a stellar optimizer myself, but I did pick up a lot here. The atmosphere for newbies seems a lot less toxic than on the hardcore optimizer boards.


Yeah, Archivist is pretty potent. It's also really good with Wizard, Theurge classes, and early entry tricks: Human Wizard 1 with Precocious Apprentice & Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard, so you can't fall below CL 1, not necessary if your 3rd level is wizard), then Archivist 1, then a level in anything so you can get Alternate Source Spell for your level 3 feat. Now you can prepare your lone 2nd level Wizard spell as divine or arcane, so then at level 4 you can get into MT. If you wanted, you could make your 3rd level a level in Bard and take Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) and Open Chakra (Feet) so you can then get into Fochlucan Lyrist.


More tricks that I have honestly never heard of, never thought of, never could have imagined. I am really a bad caster. :smallredface: Though I really really like that last one, makes me really want to roll up another bard now. :smallbiggrin:

I'm probably not the first to think of this.[1] (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3092.0)

[Haluesen]

Don't feel bad. You read enough threads, post enough, and you pick it up. I'm not a stellar optimizer myself, but I did pick up a lot here. The atmosphere for newbies seems a lot less toxic than on the hardcore optimizer boards.

Yeah, it is just something i have had to admit to get my point that I am not great with classes that others could dominate a game with. Druids? After the beginning few levels, say between 5 and 7, I cannot do much with the animal companion. And Wild Shape is all well and good but I hate Natural Spell. It just rarely feels right to me. But the more relaxed (generally) atmosphere of this board is why I stay. And I learn and can share good homebrew. :smallbiggrin:


I'm probably not the first to think of this.[1] (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3092.0)

Well even if not, you taught me, and I thank you. :smallsmile:

[eggynack]

Yeah, it is just something i have had to admit to get my point that I am not great with classes that others could dominate a game with. Druids? After the beginning few levels, say between 5 and 7, I cannot do much with the animal companion. And Wild Shape is all well and good but I hate Natural Spell. It just rarely feels right to me. But the more relaxed (generally) atmosphere of this board is why I stay. And I learn and can share good homebrew. :smallbiggrin:
It's mostly just about knowing the list. Assuming 9th level, and core to keep things simple, the simple knowledge that control winds, baleful polymorph, animal growth, and wall of thorns are awesome is often enough to provide crazy levels of power. You can obviously get insanely deeper than that, keeping track of ideal forms, the really high power feats and items, and collecting that information, along with the spell information, from dozens of separate books, but you can get a lot with a little.

[Vogonjeltz]

Wait why are wizards hosed against undead? Turn undead is pretty bad except for Sun Domain optimization and for fueling DMM. You really can't turn and destroy anything CR appropriate. And wizards can just go full mailman and be plenty efficient at taking undead out.

I was referring to the hubris about color spray and sleep. The socalled save or dies that are useless vs undead.

*sure, wizards could go full evocation, but then they're foregoing other toys.

[eggynack]

I was referring to the hubris about color spray and sleep. The socalled save or dies that are useless vs undead.

*sure, wizards could go full evocation, but then they're foregoing other toys.
Or the wizard could cast grease, the also often hailed wizard spell that is excellent against undead, or silent image, the also often hailed wizard spell that is also excellent against undead, at least by certain interpretations.

[Vogonjeltz]

Or the wizard could cast grease, the also often hailed wizard spell that is excellent against undead, or silent image, the also often hailed wizard spell that is also excellent against undead, at least by certain interpretations.

If they prepared grease instead of color spray that day. Silent image doesn't seem like a good pick, undead have good will saves.

*so maybe 2 good options out of about 200 possible spell choices at 1st level? Those aren't very good odds.

[malonkey1]

I was referring to the hubris about color spray and sleep. The socalled save or dies that are useless vs undead.

*sure, wizards could go full evocation, but then they're foregoing other toys.

Portcullis trap: 1400 GP
2 castings of Invisibility: 2 2nd-level slots.
Remaining out of sight while watching while as a zombie or skeleton is maimed by a an invisible portcullis: Priceless.

[searlefm]

i dont know 4 aristocrats (yes the NPC class) with epic leadership and charisma might be fun.
but only if your DM can some how run a middle management game well.

[eggynack]

If they prepared grease instead of color spray that day. Silent image doesn't seem like a good pick, undead have good will saves.
Wizards can prepare a pretty good number of spells in a day, and if we're talking about the party of four wizards, that number obviously bumps up by a lot. I mean really, just consider four domain elven generalists, who at first level would be running five 1st's a day each. That's a lot of spells, even if some of them are likely to be mage armor and expeditious retreat. As for silent image, I was thinking against mindless undead, because they wouldn't have much call to interact with a wall in the first place, and so would be blocked off with pretty high efficiency.

[Gildedragon]

Another possible and not too high power-all bases covered lineup. Here gestalting tier 4s with a tier 5.

Adept//Magewright

Crusader

Ranger//Ninja

Factotum or Binder

[Scorponok]

In regards to playing casters like tier 3, I'll say where casters excel (at least in the games I've seen) is when the party is outnumbered severely. At lower levels, 4 PCs vs. one big bad monster, it looks pretty even. But if the party is getting bum rushed by 10 Orcs, having a sorcerer or wizard with color spray, or putting up an illusion wall, or a druid with Entangle/Summons, or a cleric spamming Cause Fear or Enthralling everyone is worth their weight in gold. Even at low levels, against low level creatures, they are force multipliers that a melee character has no way of being able to replicate.

[eggynack]

In regards to playing casters like tier 3, I'll say where casters excel (at least in the games I've seen) is when the party is outnumbered severely. At lower levels, 4 PCs vs. one big bad monster, it looks pretty even. But if the party is getting bum rushed by 10 Orcs, having a sorcerer or wizard with color spray, or putting up an illusion wall, or a druid with Entangle/Summons, or a cleric spamming Cause Fear or Enthralling everyone is worth their weight in gold. Even at low levels, against low level creatures, they are force multipliers that a melee character has no way of being able to replicate.
Also the opposite, when the party outnumbers an enemy severely. It might look pretty even for a few seconds, but get one big save or x spell to stick, and there's not going to be much in the way of an enemy anymore. You can also layer up a few spells with moderate effect and higher success chances, thus turning action advantage into victory better than a melee fellow ever would. It also still probably applies against a number of enemies equal to the number in the party, because, y'know, casters make the best use of actions. Casters are awesome.

[Vogonjeltz]

Wizards can prepare a pretty good number of spells in a day, and if we're talking about the party of four wizards, that number obviously bumps up by a lot. I mean really, just consider four domain elven generalists, who at first level would be running five 1st's a day each. That's a lot of spells, even if some of them are likely to be mage armor and expeditious retreat. As for silent image, I was thinking against mindless undead, because they wouldn't have much call to interact with a wall in the first place, and so would be blocked off with pretty high efficiency.

Wizards don't get a synergy bonus to prepare more spells for having 4 of them in the party.

They still only get one 1st level spell, plus any bonus spells for high Int, per day. That's an extremely limited choice.

*missed the part about silent image in the word wall.

Mindless undead are almost always controlled, which renders the sudden creation of a wall fairly easy to disbelieve. Presumably if they were attacking they would proceed to touch the wall and get a save.

[Karnith]

Wizards don't get a synergy bonus to prepare more spells for having 4 of them in the party.

They still only get one 1st level spell, plus any bonus spells for high Int, per day. That's an extremely limited choice.It's really not hard to get more spell slots at first level.
A first-level generalist Wizard with 11 Int can cast 1 first-level spell per day. Who actually does this, though?
A first-level generalist Wizard with at least 12 Int will have 2 first-level spells per day. This is legitimately a bad place to be, but even a party of these guys would still have 8 first-level spells per day between them.
A first-level generalist with at least 20 Int (say, from being a Gray Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf)), an Elven Generalist, Specialist, or Domain Wizard with at least 12 Int, or a Deep Imaskari (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b) generalist with 12 Int will have 3 first-level spells per day.
A first-level Deep Imaskari (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b) generalist Wizard with at least 20 Int or Specialist or Domain Wizard with at least 12 Int, a Focused Specialist with at least 12 Int, an Elven Generalist, Specialist, or Domain Wizard with at least 20 Int, or a Domain Elven Generalist Wizard with at least 12 Int will have 4 first-level spells per day.
A first-level Deep Imaskari (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b) Specialist or Domain Wizard with at least 20 Int, or a Deep Imaskari Focused Specialist with at least 12 Int, a Focused Specialist with at least 20 Int, or a Domain Elven Generalist with at least 20 Int will have 5 first-level spells per day.
And, topping out the list, a Deep Imaskari (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b) Focused Specialist with at least 20 Int would have 6 first-level spells per day.

[Threadnaught]

Wizards don't get a synergy bonus to prepare more spells for having 4 of them in the party.

They still only get one 1st level spell, plus any bonus spells for high Int, per day. That's an extremely limited choice.

Wizard 1 = 1 Spell.
Elven Generalist = 1 Spell.
Intelligence 20 = 2 Spells.
Domain Wizard = 1 Spell.
Add them all together and what do you get?

1 + 1 + 2 + 1 = 5 Spells.

Assuming each of the four Wizards is using this loadout, that gives 20 Spells per day between the four of them.

[eggynack]

Wizard 1 = 1 Spell.
Elven Generalist = 1 Spell.
Intelligence 20 = 2 Spells.
Domain Wizard = 1 Spell.
Add them all together and what do you get?

1 + 1 + 2 + 1 = 5 Spells.

Assuming each of the four Wizards is using this loadout, that gives 20 Spells per day between the four of them.
Indeed so. I was referring, not to any sort of synergy bonus, but rather to the fact that a four wizard party means that you're almost inevitably going to have the right spell for the job. Grease, as one of the best first levels spells in the game, is going to be on that stack. You could also go with the focused specialist method in that party, incidentally, under the assumption that the other party members will fill the gaps, and get the same spells/day at that level, and more spells/day at later levels. Not usually my preferred path, but it certainly leads to a somewhat more interesting group.

[Lans]

Remember they also have 0th level spells launch bolt ftw

[Beardbarian]

Answering OP

Wizard for Arcane casting and pure Control
Cloistered Cleric for wizard-like PC, like a normal wizard but Divine casting
Druid for tanking, unique spell list and familiar companion
Artificer for crafting and OH MY GOD A TONLOAD OF SPELLS FOR CRAFTING THIS IS CHRISTMAS EVERYDAY!


If PhB only
Wizard
Cleric
Druid
Bard

[Vogonjeltz]

Wizard 1 = 1 Spell.
Elven Generalist = 1 Spell.
Intelligence 20 = 2 Spells.
Domain Wizard = 1 Spell.
Add them all together and what do you get?

1 + 1 + 2 + 1 = 5 Spells.

Assuming each of the four Wizards is using this loadout, that gives 20 Spells per day between the four of them.


It's really not hard to get more spell slots at first level.
A first-level generalist Wizard with 11 Int can cast 1 first-level spell per day. Who actually does this, though?
A first-level generalist Wizard with at least 12 Int will have 2 first-level spells per day. This is legitimately a bad place to be, but even a party of these guys would still have 8 first-level spells per day between them.
A first-level generalist with at least 20 Int (say, from being a Gray Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf)), an Elven Generalist, Specialist, or Domain Wizard with at least 12 Int, or a Deep Imaskari (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b) generalist with 12 Int will have 3 first-level spells per day.
A first-level Deep Imaskari (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b) generalist Wizard with at least 20 Int or Specialist or Domain Wizard with at least 12 Int, a Focused Specialist with at least 12 Int, an Elven Generalist, Specialist, or Domain Wizard with at least 20 Int, or a Domain Elven Generalist Wizard with at least 12 Int will have 4 first-level spells per day.
A first-level Deep Imaskari (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b) Specialist or Domain Wizard with at least 20 Int, or a Deep Imaskari Focused Specialist with at least 12 Int, a Focused Specialist with at least 20 Int, or a Domain Elven Generalist with at least 20 Int will have 5 first-level spells per day.
And, topping out the list, a Deep Imaskari (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b) Focused Specialist with at least 20 Int would have 6 first-level spells per day.

So the caveat is: "it's not hard to get more spells if you were born a gray elf or deep imaskari, everyone else has problems on that score".

[Karnith]

So the caveat is: "it's not hard to get more spells if you were born a gray elf or deep imaskari, everyone else has problems on that score".
I am saying that good Wizard races make good Wizards, yes (incidentally, you can substitute Gray Elf for pretty much any other Elf subrace with +2 Int; there are more than a few, and even the Elves without +2 Int are still good because of Elven Generalist). I didn't mention Dragonwrought Kobolds, but they also make pretty good Wizards, even if they make better Sorcerers.

And even if you decide, for whatever reason, that you want to play a Wizard with a different race (say, a Human), I did include the numbers for characters without those things, and they're still pretty good if getting a ton of spell slots is your goal. A party of first-level Focused Specialists will have 16 first-level spell slots per day between them, provided that they all have Intelligence scores of at least 12. Plain ol' specialists with Int scores of at least 12 will have 12 first-level spells per day between them, which is still manageable.

[eggynack]

So the caveat is: "it's not hard to get more spells if you were born a gray elf or deep imaskari, everyone else has problems on that score".
It certainly helps, but as Karnith notes, it's hardly an absolute necessity. 16 first level spells/day is also enough that I feel like I can just assume grease. It helps that we are constructing this party, meaning that they can have whatever races are best. Granted, the version where there's no domain wizard/elven generalist, or only one, and we push each member down a different ACF path, is somewhat more thematically interesting, but there's hardly an onus there.

[Vogonjeltz]

I am saying that good Wizard races make good Wizards, yes (incidentally, you can substitute Gray Elf for pretty much any other Elf subrace with +2 Int; there are more than a few, and even the Elves without +2 Int are still good because of Elven Generalist). I didn't mention Dragonwrought Kobolds, but they also make pretty good Wizards, even if they make better Sorcerers.

And even if you decide, for whatever reason, that you want to play a Wizard with a different race (say, a Human), I did include the numbers for characters without those things, and they're still pretty good if getting a ton of spell slots is your goal. A party of first-level Focused Specialists will have 16 first-level spell slots per day between them, provided that they all have Intelligence scores of at least 12. Plain ol' specialists with Int scores of at least 12 will have 12 first-level spells per day between them, which is still manageable.

Except those specialists can't cast from 3 spell schools. And 2 of those bonus spells have to be from the specialty. What specialty spell is going to be effective on enemies more than 25 feet away?

I count 3.
Magic Missile (very low damage)
Sleep (casting time allows interruption)
Silent image (who cares?)
Animate Rope (if your strategy relies on the opponent dropping a rope nearby, you're not long for this world)

[eggynack]

Except those specialists can't cast from 3 spell schools. And 2 of those bonus spells have to be from the specialty. What specialty spell is going to be effective on enemies more than 25 feet away?

I count 3.
Magic Missile (very low damage)
Sleep (casting time allows interruption)
Silent image (who cares?)
Animate Rope (if your strategy relies on the opponent dropping a rope nearby, you're not long for this world)
They can rotate a bit through the banned schools, if they like. The general idea is that you ban three of enchantment, evocation, illusion, and necromancy, so it makes some sense to give each focused specialist one of those schools. After that, you choose the specializations. I want two conjurers in there, one with abrupt jaunt, and one with rapid summons, let's make one transmutation, and for the fourth, well, seems fair to make one an elven generalist, at least. Let's say that enchantment is the school that's only represented by the generalist. at point, we have quite a bit to work with, though I'm not really sure what you're looking for. Generally, at a distance like that, you either use a crossbow, or maybe sleep or silent image. The casting time isn't that relevant when the enemies are that far out, which is why you're prepping it specifically for that distance, and I very much care about silent image. Specialization is somewhat irrelevant in any case. The idea here is that if there's a spell on the first level list that we need, then there's a really good chance that we have it.

[Karnith]

They can rotate a bit through the banned schools, if they like. The general idea is that you ban three of enchantment, evocation, illusion, and necromancy, so it makes some sense to give each focused specialist one of those schools.
In a party of casters, it's also totally okay for some of them to drop Abjuration, as long as the party as a whole still has access it.

[Kantolin]

You know, my favorite four classes are probably close to:

Psychic Warrior, Bard, Shadowcaster, Lurk

And that would make a pretty fun party overall, I think. Could swing pretty stealthy. Psychic warrior would have to pick up all the 'be sturdy' slack, and the lurk would end up being a bit behind, but that's fairly okay.

(Well, and if you're not level 7 yet the shadowcaster would run out of mysteries fast, but that's shadowcasters for you)

If pathfinder is included I'd probably toss in a Vitalist as well, simply because of how fun they are.

[Silatuyok]

Illumian Abjurent champion Ascetic Knight of poverty, champion of Mystra (the paladin that gets 80 AC by level 12 or so)
Multi weapon fighting thri-kreen(MM version of the race, not psionic) rogue with hand crossbows (hello multi target DPS)
Half elf Bard Diplomancer
Wizard (with Wayfarer guide thrown in for those hurried escapes)

think of a single problem that cannot be waved away or ignored by at least one member of the party by level 10-12ish and I will give you a cookie

[Lans]

Except those specialists can't cast from 3 spell schools. And 2 of those bonus spells have to be from the specialty. What specialty spell is going to be effective on enemies more than 25 feet away?

I count 3.
Magic Missile (very low damage)
Sleep (casting time allows interruption)
Silent image (who cares?)
Animate Rope (if your strategy relies on the opponent dropping a rope nearby, you're not long for this world)

Launch bolt and Launch Item?

Can't the wizards trade there familiars for Animal Companions?

[Karnith]

Can't the wizards trade there familiars for Animal Companions?
Among other things, yes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard), though it might preclude other things e.g. Abrupt Jaunt for the FS Conjuror.