Multi-Classing

[Human Paragon 3]

How do you think it should work? I enjoyed the granularity of 3.5's multiclassing rules, and kind of hated 4e's system.

How I would do it:

Just like in 3.5, when you level up, you can take a level in any class. No XP penalties required. Your total class levels determine your character level, again like in 3.5.

When you gain a new class, you gain its weapon and armor proficiencies, tool proficiencies, and one skill and save each from its list.

When you gain a new level in a class, you gain all class features except for sub-class/archetype features granted by that level.

Caveat: This introduces dead levels, which is kind of a problem, but it's more elegant than writing an alternate version of every single ability.

Alternative: You gain all the abilities of the class, but features that are 1/short rest become 1/day.

[obryn]

What we know for certain:

It's buffet-style multiclassing like in 3e. There are stat minimums to multiclass, and you must meet them for both your class and the other class. It could break the game a little on the last open playtest, so it probably has seen tweaks.

I kinda hate it. 3e-style multiclassing is the worst. :smallsmile:

[Chaosvii7]

Besides the confusing part about multiclass magic, I loved the playtest multiclassing rules, which gave you everything two classes had, and all you needed was a minimum stat requirement(either one 15 or two 13s depending on the class). I hope the system preserved everything save the magic rules, which were outright confusing.

[Lycoris]

What we know for certain:

It's buffet-style multiclassing like in 3e. There are stat minimums to multiclass, and you must meet them for both your class and the other class. It could break the game a little on the last open playtest, so it probably has seen tweaks.

I kinda hate it. 3e-style multiclassing is the worst. :smallsmile:

Pretty much this, though I'm more ambivalent towards multiclassing in general; though the level of abuse possible in 3e style is ludicrous at times :smalleek: . To explicitly state what the Basic rules have told us thus far (paraphrasing):

-Multiclassing requires you to meet the stat prerequisites of the new class, as well as your current class(es). The assumption being that your training up to level 1 helps shore up what shortcomings you might have, and multiclassing post-"wizard school" requires natural aptitude, not just time.

-Hit points and hit die are determined by the class level you take; so par for the course there.

-Multiclassing gives no penalties to experience needed per level, nor to your proficiency bonus; both are tied to character level. Feats and/or ability score improvements look to be based off of class level though, and we might need to wait for the PHB for confirmation. As such, taking class levels in multiples of 4 might be recommended, so as not to lose out on stat points/feats.

-You will only gain some of the new class's proficiencies when you multiclass, not all of them. I'm expecting skill/tool proficiencies, as well as save proficiencies, to be the ones most targeted by this, as 2+ each of new saves and skills are probably worth dipping a few levels to grab.

-You appear to gain all the class features of a class for its level. However, certain features will act differently when used by a multiclass character. As Chaosvii7 stated, magic rules for multiclassing were apparently odd during the playtest, but they aren't mentioned in the Basic pdf, so I can't comment on them until the PHB comes out.

At the very least, it appears to be a simpler system than it makes itself out to be, which is a nice change from 3e multiclassing, which always looked simple to me but had more complicated rules and consequences. Like with a lot of things regarding the format, the PHB is likely to make or break the system for me (that, and whether my friends get interested in it or not).

[obryn]

All I can say is that if I never see another Battle Sorcerer 4/Paladin of Slaughter 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 8 in my entire life, I will be well pleased.

[Fwiffo86]

All I can say is that if I never see another Battle Sorcerer 4/Paladin of Slaughter 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 8 in my entire life, I will be well pleased.

Attribute requirements for multi-class. 15(13/13) for your second. 18 (15/15) for your third, 20(17/17) for your fourth.

Gain all abilities of class, and the proficiencies associated with that class. (armor/weapons/tools)

No skill gains for picking up a new class.

First secondary class must be maintained at +/-1 level of original class or suffer 10% xp gain penalty per level off. eg. F4 / T1 = -20% penalty (as T3 gets within one)

Tertiary class as above but all must be within +/- 1 level or double XP penalty.

Fourth, as above but triple xp penalty (-30% per level off)

- Second, Third, Fourth etc classes do not gain the benefits of "path" choice. Only your primary class gains the benefits of path.

Regardless of the rules the PHB will dispense, this is the way I am handling Multi-classing in my game. Is it harsh? Sure. But I will not be having any of the....


All I can say is that if I never see another Battle Sorcerer 4/Paladin of Slaughter 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 8

Ever again.

[Human Paragon 3]

Does anyone care to outline the apparently absurd multiclass magic rules from the playtest?

I would think that just having two separate sets of spell slots would be straightforward enough.

[Yorrin]

As I've stated elsewhere, the multiclassing rules are one of the primary reasons I returned to 3.5 after playing 4e for a year. So I'm looking for a similar system again in 5e, and so far things are looking pretty good for me. The system we've seen is essentially 3.5 multiclassing, but with stat requirements and a couple altered class features. And by altered class features I'm assuming they're referencing the section that was in the last playtest about Extra Attack being gained more slowly as you multiclass, as well as the mess that was multiclassing spell rules. They've promised to clean up the spell thing, so I'm looking forward to the rest of it.


Does anyone care to outline the apparently absurd multiclass magic rules from the playtest?

I would think that just having two separate sets of spell slots would be straightforward enough.

Long story short there was a chart that gave you spell slots based on your number of levels in each casting class from which you cast all of your spells, but you had to keep track of prepared spells separately. Essentially giving you less spell slots to work from.

[TheOOB]

I also imagine we'll see some powerful low level abilities be weakened for multiclass characters, abilities such as action surge, second wind, cunning action, and uncanny dodge are all very powerful for their level, and I wouldn't be suprised if they work the same, but were usable less often for multi class characters.

[Human Paragon 3]

If they really want to keep it to a single pool of slots, they should let you add both your casting modifiers to your slot total. That way multi-classed characters get marginally more spells per day, but weaker spells since they delay new spell levels.

[charcoalninja]

Does anyone care to outline the apparently absurd multiclass magic rules from the playtest?

I would think that just having two separate sets of spell slots would be straightforward enough.

The casting multiclass rules from what I can recall were pretty straightforward and great.
Total your casting levels and look on the Multiclass caster table for your spells per day.
You have separate spell lists and spells prepared based on each class.
Use slots in any combination.

edit: swordsag'd blah!

[Chaosvii7]

Is it harsh?

The XP penalty is absolutely harsh(even Pathfinder agrees), but the rest is probably fine if you're really that worried about multiclass abuse.

Frankly, I don't think multiclassing is a big problem. It'll certainly be less so if they end up including class kits that grant spellcasting to a wider variety of classes(I am really excited to see that Eldritch Knight, I want to recreate my Duskblade in Next but Fighter/Wizard seems to work excellently thus far), I'm not gonna complain.

For some reason everybody seems to dislike all multiclassing systems, and I'm not sure why. 3.5's was not the cause of the massive imbalance, but a symptom, as Prestige Classes were the real trouble for them, which they've basically eliminated by making specialization a part of a base class, leaving having a hybrid class combo up to multiclassing(which I am a-okay with.) 4e's hybrids took an understanding of ability scores, roles, and kit synergy but it's certainly not the worst system. I hear multiclass feats are awful, however, but I never got to use one.

This is actually my favorite system of Multiclassing I've seen; It's got a requirement for you taking the classes(you might be able to argue bumping the ability score bumps up to 17 for a single-stat and two 15s for dual-stats,) and it gives you just what you need for just what you expect to give up.

The most harsh things I'd do to houserule multiclassing are probably No save proficiencies, one skill proficiency(but they get all tool proficiencies), and limit it to just one extra class on top of your own. No need to go into extremes to stop people from wanting to play two classes. High-end abuse cases are probably more likely in single-classed spellcasters than in multi-classed monstrosities.

[TheOOB]

If they really want to keep it to a single pool of slots, they should let you add both your casting modifiers to your slot total. That way multi-classed characters get marginally more spells per day, but weaker spells since they delay new spell levels.

The strictly limited number of spell slots is an intentional balancing mechanism.

[Human Paragon 3]

The strictly limited number of spell slots is an intentional balancing mechanism.

I guess I meant spells prepared. The spell slots can just be based on character level since wiz and cleric get the same # of slots now.

[captpike]

The strictly limited number of spell slots is an intentional balancing mechanism.

that only works if you keep to a strict rounds/day limit.

[Envyus]

that only works if you keep to a strict rounds/day limit.

No it still works fine.

[Sartharina]

Long story short there was a chart that gave you spell slots based on your number of levels in each casting class from which you cast all of your spells, but you had to keep track of prepared spells separately. Essentially giving you less spell slots to work from.
Less, but more powerful. A Cleric 8/Wizard 9 had 9th-level spell slots, but only 5th-level spells.

[Person_Man]

My current guess based on what little we know so far is that if you roll dice to generate your attributes and get lucky with 3+ high rolls, then mutliclassing will allow you to further leverage this additional resource by quickly accumulating multiple signature class abilities (Action Surge, Second Wind, Cunning Action, Divine Grace, etc).

Because your attributes start out high thanks to luck, you don't need to worry about attribute increases gained from levels.

However, many multiclass options are going to be traps. "Warrior" builds will miss out on Extra Attacks, so you'd have to rely on two weapon fighting and class abilities to get them. For example, I'm guessing a low level Druid/Monk can probably end up with 3+ attacks from a combination of (poorly worded) Wild Shape and Flurry of Blows.

Similarly, any high level spellcaster build might suck, depending on whether or not they institute a Tome of Battle style progression for it.

[TheOOB]

My current guess based on what little we know so far is that if you roll dice to generate your attributes and get lucky with 3+ high rolls, then mutliclassing will allow you to further leverage this additional resource by quickly accumulating multiple signature class abilities (Action Surge, Second Wind, Cunning Action, Divine Grace, etc).

Because your attributes start out high thanks to luck, you don't need to worry about attribute increases gained from levels.

However, many multiclass options are going to be traps. "Warrior" builds will miss out on Extra Attacks, so you'd have to rely on two weapon fighting and class abilities to get them. For example, I'm guessing a low level Druid/Monk can probably end up with 3+ attacks from a combination of (poorly worded) Wild Shape and Flurry of Blows.

Similarly, any high level spellcaster build might suck, depending on whether or not they institute a Tome of Battle style progression for it.

All the more reason to never roll for stats.

[captpike]

No it still works fine.

what? so having a set number of spells per day works equally well as a balancing mechanism if you have one fight in a day where the wizard can blow their load and beat the fight by himself. it also works well if you have 15 fights in a day and the wizard is down to cantrips by fight 6?

that would only work if spells did not effect how well wizards did in combat...

[SpawnOfMorbo]

For a high ability score 5e one shot we rolled 1d6+12 for stats, would love to multiclass with those rolls.

[Person_Man]

All the more reason to never roll for stats.

I agree. But even without randomly rolled high attributes, there are going to be some natural multiclass combinations where the primary attributes of 2 or more classes overlap.

Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, and Ranger can all be Dex based. And presumably Wildshape won't be subject to Concentration rules, so a melee focused Druid might fit into this category as well. You could also presumably make a Str based version of a Fighter and/or Barbarian and/or Druid + Rogue. Though I'm guessing the Ranger will be locked into Dex because of his options will be Finesse/TWF or ranged weapon abilities.

Bard, Paladin, Sorcerer, and Warlock are all Cha based. In particular, it'll be interesting to see if the Bard and Paladin are Str MAD by default, or if they have some kind of "attack with Charisma" option. Otherwise, I could see a lot of people going Paladin 2/Sorcerer or Warlock 18 in order to get +5 to all Saves and the occasional to-hit roll (or whatever Divine Grace and Smite end up being).

Monk, Druid, and Cleric are all Wis based. Like the Bard and Paladin, it'll be interesting to see if they fix the Monk's inherent MAD or not by allowing them to make Wis based attacks. If so, then Monk/Druid or Monk/Cleric could be tempting options.

Interestingly enough, only the Wizard appears to be left out by himself as the only Int based class. But even then, I would definitely play a Rogue 2/Wizard 18 for Cunning Action->use your Bonus Action to Hide at the end of every turn after I cast a ranged spell (and thus can never be targeted by enemies unless you make a successful Perception check or Ready an Action). And if there's a module to make Short Rests shorter/easier, I could see someone going Fighter 2/Wizard 18 for Action Surge->2 spells first round of every combat. Similarly, depending on how often you can use Rage and whether or not they include a "can't cast spells" mechanic, I could even see anyone going Barbarian 1/Whatever 19 to get Physical Resistance in combat.

[PinkysBrain]

How do you think it should work?
At level 6 you should be able to take a Paragon Path, you'd have class specific Paragon Paths ... but also a generic Gestalt path which allows you to gain levels in another class in parallel.

Obviously the Paragon paths would have to be quite powerful to make this balanced ...

[T.G. Oskar]

I agree. But even without randomly rolled high attributes, there are going to be some natural multiclass combinations where the primary attributes of 2 or more classes overlap.

Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, and Ranger can all be Dex based. And presumably Wildshape won't be subject to Concentration rules, so a melee focused Druid might fit into this category as well. You could also presumably make a Str based version of a Fighter and/or Barbarian and/or Druid + Rogue. Though I'm guessing the Ranger will be locked into Dex because of his options will be Finesse/TWF or ranged weapon abilities.

Bard, Paladin, Sorcerer, and Warlock are all Cha based. In particular, it'll be interesting to see if the Bard and Paladin are Str MAD by default, or if they have some kind of "attack with Charisma" option. Otherwise, I could see a lot of people going Paladin 2/Sorcerer or Warlock 18 in order to get +5 to all Saves and the occasional to-hit roll (or whatever Divine Grace and Smite end up being).

Monk, Druid, and Cleric are all Wis based. Like the Bard and Paladin, it'll be interesting to see if they fix the Monk's inherent MAD or not by allowing them to make Wis based attacks. If so, then Monk/Druid or Monk/Cleric could be tempting options.

Interestingly enough, only the Wizard appears to be left out by himself as the only Int based class. But even then, I would definitely play a Rogue 2/Wizard 18 for Cunning Action->use your Bonus Action to Hide at the end of every turn after I cast a ranged spell (and thus can never be targeted by enemies unless you make a successful Perception check or Ready an Action). And if there's a module to make Short Rests shorter/easier, I could see someone going Fighter 2/Wizard 18 for Action Surge->2 spells first round of every combat. Similarly, depending on how often you can use Rage and whether or not they include a "can't cast spells" mechanic, I could even see anyone going Barbarian 1/Whatever 19 to get Physical Resistance in combat.

Still too early, but I'd incline towards "no such thing" (on the Cha-to-attack or Wis-to-dmg.). That could probably be the province of feats, though. All classes effectively have Weapon Finesse for free, though (the Finesse property), so it could also be an item property.

I see a lot of dips rather than dunks on there, and on very familiar blends. Paladin/Sorcerer is almost expected, but I'd incline for a dunk: based on one of the latter playtests, Divine Grace turned into an Aura that grants that bonus to everyone within 10 ft. You need several levels to get that, though: I think level 7 or 9. I doubt such a bonus would be so front-loaded. With Divine Smite being spell slot-based rather than per day (again: from the last playtest), Charisma is mostly useful for Paladin spellcasting (uses that score for it) and Aura of Protection (or whatever Divine Grace ends up being).

Another is Druid/Monk. This one is a bit more straightforward: spend Ki for Flurry of Blows if unarmed, and see if you can count your Wild Shape form's attacks as "unarmed". It'd be limited, though, albeit Ki is easy to regenerate...

Bard...well, Bard is a tasty dip, but that's because it's a tasty class on its own. I sincerely hope it doesn't get 9th level spellcasting because that'd make it officially broken: it has Extra Attack as a martial class, Expertise as the Rogue, a lot of skill choices, a wide variety of spells, good proficiencies with weapons and armor (and more with College of Valor)... A Dex/Int/Cha Bard would seem like the most broken build ever, depending on the spells given. Even focusing on attack spells and applying Inspire Courage/Call to Battle (particularly the one where you get an increasing die of additional damage) instead of a buff spell can be pretty nasty. Why would you dip on another class with it? Bard/Rogue, maybe, but that's because you'd make it even MORE broken with Cunning Action and Sneak Attack (for a minimal loss of spells, mind you). Bard/Paladin, while entirely possible, would be shooting yourself on the foot because you lose all those tasty spells, the freely augmented spells (Dispel Magic, Mass Cure Wounds or Confusion) and the progression to Call to Battle for a minor increase to Charisma.

I can see Paladin 18/Bard 2, though. Expertise on Athletics on a primarily Strength-focused class, two decent cantrips and Call to Battle (albeit at its lowest) coupled with Improved Divine Smite (how does 1[W] + 1d4 + 1d8 radiant sound? How about doing that twice per round because of Extra Attack?), the Aura of Protection and the Oath benefits. You'd lose on the Oaths' second Channel Divinity options, mostly. And maybe one choice of feat or ability score improvement.

Again: this is conjecture from one of the last playtest packets.

[Chaosvii7]

I sincerely hope it doesn't get 9th level spellcasting because that'd make it officially broken: it has Extra Attack as a martial class, Expertise as the Rogue, a lot of skill choices, a wide variety of spells, good proficiencies with weapons and armor (and more with College of Valor)

Realistically I can't believe that if they're going to give a class 9th levels spells that they can simultaneously justify letting it keep all of the class features it had before expanding it's spellcasting. It takes a severe lack of understanding of the game to know that that's a bad idea. I mean, even with 9th level spells classes still get extra attack options in certain cases(war domain, haste) and College of Valor still giving the Extra Attack is still totally believable, but it's definitely not a core Bard feature anymore.

A bard with two attacks? Most likely possible in the PHB, but it's not part of their core anymore.