Critical rules

[Smorgonoffz]

I've got an epiphany today reading the PH, the critical rules weren't the ones we always applied in my various groups.

Now i'll proceed to explain:

A= Old group

Let's say a kukri Damage : 1d4 Multiplier x 2

what we did 1d4+str x 2


B What i just read:

Same Weapon Kukri, but new critical rules:

2d4 (critical is x 2) + 6 (str bonus +3)


Which interpretation of rules is right?, i've always used a wrong interpretation of the rules or i simply misread them?

[atemu1234]

I've got an epiphany today reading the PH, the critical rules weren't the ones we always applied in my various groups.

Now i'll proceed to explain:

A= Old group

Let's say a kukri Damage : 1d4 Multiplier x 2

what we did 1d4+str x 2


B What i just read:

Same Weapon Kukri, but new critical rules:

2d4 (critical is x 2) + 6 (str bonus +3)


Which interpretation of rules is right?, i've always used a wrong interpretation of the rules or i simply misread them?

Quite honestly the rules on multiplication are hazy at best. I'd go with interpretation numero uno, as it's what I've done.

[Kafana]

We use the B variant.

[Zombimode]

Quite honestly the rules on multiplication are hazy at best. I'd go with interpretation numero uno, as it's what I've done.

Actually, they are quite clear:


Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Emphasis mine.
So, your variation B is the closest to the rules.

[Smorgonoffz]

Uhm even more doubts

Taken from wotc 3.5 glossary



critical hit

A hit that strikes a vital area and therefore deals double damage or more. To score a critical hit (crit), an attacker must first score a threat (usually a natural 20 on an attack roll) and then succeed on a critical roll (just like another attack roll). Critical hit damage is usually double damage, which means rolling damage twice, just as if the attacker had actually hit the defender two times. (Any extra damage dice, such as from a rogue's sneak attack, are not rolled multiple times, but are added to the total at the end of the calculation.)

[Khedrac]

Some times you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
It is Option B.

And Sword-saged. But it is very clear, you roll it each time - PHB, SRD or Glossary.

[torrasque666]

Uhm even more doubts

Taken from wotc 3.5 glossary


critical hit

A hit that strikes a vital area and therefore deals double damage or more. To score a critical hit (crit), an attacker must first score a threat (usually a natural 20 on an attack roll) and then succeed on a critical roll (just like another attack roll). Critical hit damage is usually double damage, which means rolling damage twice, just as if the attacker had actually hit the defender two times. (Any extra damage dice, such as from a rogue's sneak attack, are not rolled multiple times, but are added to the total at the end of the calculation.)

Its option B. What the quoted section means is, if using an ability that gives extra dice to the roll, such as a rogue's sneak attack, that kukri would be (1d4)*2+(str)*2+(SA dice)*1

Basically, weapon damage dice and static additions are multiplied, additional dice are not.

[supersonic29]

Option B being correct is really funny to learn. I immediately started thinking about how rolling the damage twice as opposed to multiplying the results would change so much about d&d I've played. I then went to actually check the default critical damage macro from the 3.5 char sheets on roll20.net and they actually have it in the option A way. Is this such a huge, common discrepancy because it was different in other editions or what?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

which way is correct is nebulous. I prefer B because;

1. Rolling more dice is fun.

2. The results are more consistent, making a crit with a X2 weapon that does less than some normal hits less likely while also making crazy crits for three times max damage rare.

[Ellowryn]

Yes, most groups use the double damage version of crits, the only problem is when you get to weapons like scyths that are x4 it becomes real easy without much optimization to get stupidly high damage. Basically its up the the playgroup to decide which would like to use.

[Zombimode]

which way is correct is nebulous. I prefer B because;

Except it is not nebulous at all. As the direct quotes in the thread show, the rules are crystal clear. You roll the damage including all static modifiers as often as the damage is multiplied and add the totals together. Read the SRD quote again, if you have doubts.


Yes, most groups use the double damage version of crits, the only problem is when you get to weapons like scyths that are x4 it becomes real easy without much optimization to get stupidly high damage. Basically its up the the playgroup to decide which would like to use.

Huh? It which "method" you use has no real impact on the numbers.

[supersonic29]

Huh? It which "method" you use has no real impact on the numbers.

The impact is that with a scythe to get max crit damage you would have to roll the max of the die 4 times using the correct way, but only once the commonly used way. Likewise rolling a single 1 for damage makes things very underwhelming.

[JusticeZero]

Use B. A makes the numbers much spikier, so you can get ridiculous or pathetic damage numbers more often. B is just a tidy "double-hit".

[Khedrac]

Huh? It which "method" you use has no real impact on the numbers.
To clarify why this is very false:

It affects the distribution
Roll and Multiply = Flat Distribution
Roll multiple dice = Normal (Bell-curve) distribution.

For example 2d6 v. 2×1d6


Result
2d6
2×1d6


2
1 in 6
1 in 36


3
-
2 in 36 = 1 in 18


4
1 in 6
3 in 36 = 1 in 12


5
-
4 in 36 = 1 in 9


6
1 in 6
5 in 36


7
-
6 in 36 = 1 in 6


8
1 in 6
5 in 36


9
-
4 in 36 = 1 in 9


10
1 in 6
3 in 36 = 1 in 12


11
-
2 in 36 = 1 in 18


12
1 in 6
1 in 36








(Sorry but that was my first table ever on this forum.)

[Ellowryn]

Sorry, i should have clarified, i didn't mean 2d4x4 vs 8d4 (actual scythe damage, which has already been pointed out rather nicely) but rather [2d4+Str+Power Attack+Other Bonuses]x4 vs [2d4x2]x4 + Str+Power Attack+Other Bonuses. When you add the multiplier is important, as the first version creates massive damage spikes on anyone who has any sort of preference to a strength score.

[Vogonjeltz]

I've got an epiphany today reading the PH, the critical rules weren't the ones we always applied in my various groups.

Now i'll proceed to explain:

A= Old group

Let's say a kukri Damage : 1d4 Multiplier x 2

what we did 1d4+str x 2


B What i just read:

Same Weapon Kukri, but new critical rules:

2d4 (critical is x 2) + 6 (str bonus +3)


Which interpretation of rules is right?, i've always used a wrong interpretation of the rules or i simply misread them?


Huh? It which "method" you use has no real impact on the numbers.

As mentioned B is correct, however it is worth noting why this makes a difference (and it does):

In version B a critical results in an adjusted range. I'll use the kukri example to demonstrate.

Normal Kukri damage is 1-4 + str, or 4-7 with a +3 modifier.
Critical Kukri damage is 2-8 + strx2, or 8-14.

This contains 16 combinations (10 distinct ones) with values of 8, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11, 11, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 14

With version A the formula of 1d4+str x 2 alters what can actually be rolled, now we only have 4 outcomes: 8, 10, 12, 14.

The probability of getting an 8, 10, 12, or 14 in method A is 25%. Whereas in method B 8 and 14 have only a 6.25% probability, and 10 and 12 have a 18.75% probability. All of which is to say that you're going to get spikier damage from the incorrect method A.

[Genth]

Sorry, i should have clarified, i didn't mean 2d4x4 vs 8d4 (actual scythe damage, which has already been pointed out rather nicely) but rather [2d4+Str+Power Attack+Other Bonuses]x4 vs [2d4x2]x4 + Str+Power Attack+Other Bonuses. When you add the multiplier is important, as the first version creates massive damage spikes on anyone who has any sort of preference to a strength score.

It's not THAT easy. Even with improved critical, a scythe will have only a 1/10 chance of critting, so it SHOULD be a massive damage spike. I've seen builds of Scythe-wielding Paladins, who have insane numbers when critting with Smite Evil >:) It's more fun!

[Zombimode]

The probability of getting an 8, 10, 12, or 14 in method A is 25%. Whereas in method B 8 and 14 have only a 6.25% probability, and 10 and 12 have a 18.75% probability. All of which is to say that you're going to get spikier damage from the incorrect method A.

Hm, you're right. It has an effect on the "spikeness" of damage. But it has no change on the median.


Sorry, i should have clarified, i didn't mean 2d4x4 vs 8d4 (actual scythe damage, which has already been pointed out rather nicely) but rather [2d4+Str+Power Attack+Other Bonuses]x4 vs [2d4x2]x4 + Str+Power Attack+Other Bonuses. When you add the multiplier is important, as the first version creates massive damage spikes on anyone who has any sort of preference to a strength score.

Now this is just wrong. Per the rules all static modifiers are multiplied.