DM Help How to achieve divine rank? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Jeraa

2014-07-09, 11:37 AM

What RAW methods are there for a PC to achieve divine rank 0?

There are none, as far as I know. It is entirely up to the DM how you gain Divine Rank 0, or if it is even possible in the first place. Deities and Demigods has a section dealing with possible ways the DM could allow it, but by RAW there is no set, defined way.

With the exception of the Dragon Ascendant prestige class in Draconomicon (which requires you to be a true dragon). At 10th level, you become a quasi-diety, which Deities and Demigods defines as Divine Rank 0.

Chaosvii7

2014-07-09, 11:47 AM

DR 0 can be achieved by any means you deem fit. There is no mechanical way to do so - you are advised to create a scenario where the character will attain it through their actions(a quest to find the shard of a dead god's power, a magic ritual that requires special components, or simply a calling that the character is compelled to answer to).

I once played in a game where a player had two copies of the same character in the same campaign world - a Half Dragon Bard. While the two characters were originally separate entities, it turns out that they both existed because of a Highlander-sort of paradox; This half-dragon was Tiamat's great grandson, and she had managed to supplant a piece of her divine power in the original being in hopes of creating a potential demigod under her command, but got stopped by Bahamut before she could finish. To ensure that the power Tiamat just sacrificed didn't become corrupt, Bahamut split the power by creating two beings and spiriting away the other copy. So there were two versions of this character and each had half of the necessary components of Divine Rank 0. When one killed the other, they became a DR 0 demigod. When the two of them finally met, they didn't actually end up fighting to the death to become a new fledgeling god. One of them was higher level than the other and was a lot more compassionate, so he just let the other one schmooze around the territory that we'd taken over.

The other option is to commit deicide, but that can hand out a lot more than 1 divine rank, and frankly should considering that it's a real challenge.

FidgetySquirrel

2014-07-09, 11:48 AM

I don't know of any way to get rank 0 other than the DM says, but if you can get a deity to make you a proxy, you'll get divine rank 1. You'll even get all of the deity's salient divine abilities! Proxy status can be withdrawn anytime, though, so it's not an ideal way to become god-like.

Generally speaking, if your DM doesn't want it to happen, it ain't gonna happen.

Pan151

2014-07-09, 12:46 PM

AnonymousPepper

2014-07-09, 12:48 PM

With the exception of the Dragon Ascendant prestige class in Draconomicon (which requires you to be a true dragon).

Add yet another thing to the list that only Dragonwrought Kobolds can do. :smallamused:

Pan151

2014-07-09, 01:19 PM

Add yet another thing to the list that only Dragonwrought Kobolds can do. :smallamused:

Assuming your DM buys into the whole "DWKs are true dragons" thing, of course...

Somensjev

2014-07-09, 01:24 PM

ice assassin of a god? i'm pretty sure that's how punpun ascends

you make an ice assassin of a god, then it grants you a divine rank, then you make your minion a proxy, then you get the ice assassin to give you a divine rank again, and make another minion-proxy, then rinse and repeat this a few times and then recall all the divinity you've bestowed upon your minion-proxies, and your divine rank now equals the number of proxies you had

i might have gotten some of the details wrong, but i know it's possible, i'll go hunt it down on google

edit: yep, got it in one

Pun-Pun has the Ice Assassin spell as a spell-like ability at-will. He uses it to copy an arbitrarily high number of gods. Pun-Pun then commands a god clone to make him a proxy. This makes Pun-Pun a rank 1 demigod. Pun-Pun then makes another creature (Lokiyn, the originator of the trick, used squirrels) a proxy. This lowers Pun-Pun to divine rank 0. Pun-Pun then orders another ice assassin god to make him a proxy. At divine rank 1 again, Pun-Pun invests another squirrel with a divine rank. Pun-Pun repeats this process a NI number of times.

Then, he uses a standard action to recall each divine rank back from the squirrels. A NI number of squirrels with 1 divine rank invested equals a NI number of divine ranks recalled and gained by Pun-Pun. This gives Pun-Pun a NI divine rank.

Since Salient Divine Abilities are based on divine rank, Pun-Pun has a NI number of salient divine abilities. (That is at least all of the ones in the book and includes the awesome Alter Reality.)

Emperor Tippy

2014-07-09, 01:24 PM

Dragon Ascendant, a few of the published adventure paths iirc, and Ice Assassin are the only RAW methods of achieving divinity.

Jeraa

2014-07-09, 01:25 PM

Assuming your DM buys into the whole "DWKs are true dragons" thing, of course...

And has a +30 base attack bonus, Constitution of 25 (for one of the feat prerequisites), and a horde worth at least 100,000gp that it can eat.

Somensjev

2014-07-09, 01:28 PM

i'm actually impressed, i ninja'd Tippy with an ice assassin suggestion :smallbiggrin:

Pan151

2014-07-09, 01:30 PM

And has a +30 base attack bonus, Constitution of 25 (for one of the feat prerequisites), and a horde worth at least 100,000gp that it can eat.

Well, if your Kobold has those things, then it has those things - they are not really disputable. The defiition of a true Dragon, on the other hand, is.

Inevitability

2014-07-09, 01:36 PM

Semi-related; if you have divine rank 0, how can you increase it?

Somensjev

2014-07-09, 01:52 PM

Semi-related; if you have divine rank 0, how can you increase it?

become a proxy of a god, your divine rank will become one
become a proxy of an ice assassin god, your divine rank will become one
in certain settings, get some worshipers, the more you have the higher your divine rank will be

ShurikVch

2014-07-09, 03:36 PM

Dragon #363 have Epic Destinies for 3.5

"Demigod" will make you one at level 30

weckar

2014-07-09, 03:39 PM

Divine Rank is highly overrated, especially considering the cost usually involved in attaining it.

Somensjev

2014-07-09, 03:59 PM

Divine Rank is highly overrated, especially considering the cost usually involved in attaining it.

you could easily get a divine rank for under 4000gp and a UMD check

but, all of the less cheesy ways do take quite a bit of work

Bullet06320

2014-07-10, 03:46 AM

Dragon #363 have Epic Destinies for 3.5

"Demigod" will make you one at level 30

http://web.archive.org/web/20090218080723/http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080428

here's a link to the article

BWR

2014-07-10, 04:01 AM

You can adopt the paths to Immortality from BECMI/RC

TypoNinja

2014-07-10, 04:23 AM

Divine rank 0 can be achieved by taking 10 levels in the Dragon Ascendant PrC (it's not explicitely spelled out as Divine Rank 0, but it is the exact same set of benefits).

Of course, meeting the requirements for it is tricky to say the least...

12 actually its a really screwy class.

Also, DWK cheese or not, the requirement of eating a 100,000gp (minimum) hoard (which to a PC probably means all your magic gear) probably limits this to actual real True Dragons, simply because not much else can eat that much non-edible material, or eat that much at all, without harming itself. Even in straight gold coins that's still 2000lbs of toxic metal, never mind being faced with the requirement of chowing down on a suit of full plate made out of adamantium or mithril.

Finally the 30BAB requirement also means you'll be what, 41st level before you qualify? Assuming your first 20 levels were full BAB classes. At level 50+ divine rank zero isn't actually providing you with very impressive abilities anymore.

Ravens_cry

2014-07-10, 04:35 AM

Well, if this guy can do this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Lotito), surely a 25 Constitution Kobold could potentially do likewise.

TypoNinja

2014-07-10, 04:42 AM

Well, if this guy can do this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Lotito), surely a 25 Constitution Kobold could potentially do likewise.

The Cessna 150 took roughly two years to be "eaten", from 1978 to 1980

That's not exactly in one sitting.

weckar

2014-07-10, 05:20 AM

It's not required to be eaten in one sitting. Dragons live long, they have the time.

TypoNinja

2014-07-10, 06:47 AM

It's not required to be eaten in one sitting. Dragons live long, they have the time.

Well, you are required to eat all of your wealth, and its the requirement to take a level in the class, so how long exactly are you suggesting someone spend eating their currently wealth, and any wealth they acquire between their start and finish time? The whole time getting weaker in power as their magical gear diminishes.

Also leveling up when you have enough XP is mandatory, so you've got at most one level to do it in, and depending on your DM your time could very well be defined as "one sitting", since the theme of the class is transcending your material existence.

Also getting that last bit of XP to level minus all your magical gear could be a trick, so stalling your last encounter until you've finished the least appetizing meal in existence is a "Good news, bad news" situation.

Finally, you have to "consume" your hoard, the word consume actually does imply gaining sustenance from the act. While it might be possible for somebody to put something strange in their mouth and have it come out the other end, this is not technically eating as your body will extract no sustenance from the act. A True Dragon can actually gain sustenance from eating literally anything.

Bronk

2014-07-10, 06:53 AM

Dragon Ascendant, a few of the published adventure paths iirc, and Ice Assassin are the only RAW methods of achieving divinity.

Interesting... do you happen to remember which adventure paths those might be?

Magesmiley

2014-07-10, 11:25 AM

Well... not 3.5 RAW, but the BECMI edition of the game did have some RAW which covered the subject rather extensively (the I in BECMI is Immortal, after all).

Bronk

2014-07-10, 02:29 PM

Well, you are required to eat all of your wealth, and its the requirement to take a level in the class, so how long exactly are you suggesting someone spend eating their currently wealth, and any wealth they acquire between their start and finish time? The whole time getting weaker in power as their magical gear diminishes.

Also leveling up when you have enough XP is mandatory, so you've got at most one level to do it in, and depending on your DM your time could very well be defined as "one sitting", since the theme of the class is transcending your material existence.

Also getting that last bit of XP to level minus all your magical gear could be a trick, so stalling your last encounter until you've finished the least appetizing meal in existence is a "Good news, bad news" situation.

Finally, you have to "consume" your hoard, the word consume actually does imply gaining sustenance from the act. While it might be possible for somebody to put something strange in their mouth and have it come out the other end, this is not technically eating as your body will extract no sustenance from the act. A True Dragon can actually gain sustenance from eating literally anything.

Perhaps you could spend the cash on one smaller item?

PAO the item into food?

If a DWK is really a true dragon, it would probably be able to eat the treasure anyway... isn't that just one of those things that true dragons are expected to be able to do?

Pan151

2014-07-10, 02:36 PM

Also, DWK cheese or not, the requirement of eating a 100,000gp (minimum) hoard (which to a PC probably means all your magic gear) probably limits this to actual real True Dragons, simply because not much else can eat that much non-edible material, or eat that much at all, without harming itself. Even in straight gold coins that's still 2000lbs of toxic metal, never mind being faced with the requirement of chowing down on a suit of full plate made out of adamantium or mithril.

Sell all your stuff, buy the single most expensive magic ring you can find. Eat it. Done.

malonkey1

2014-07-10, 03:51 PM

Sell all your stuff, buy the single most expensive magic ring you can find. Eat it. Done.

Just, uh, don't swallow a ring of teleportation.

TypoNinja

2014-07-11, 12:27 AM

Perhaps you could spend the cash on one smaller item?

PAO the item into food?

If a DWK is really a true dragon, it would probably be able to eat the treasure anyway... isn't that just one of those things that true dragons are expected to be able to do?

hmm, that's clever. PAO is probably your best bet in terms of actually eating all that material, however PAO only effects a single item at a time. Not so bad for your armour and weapons, slightly tedious on a piles of coins.

DWK inst a True Dragon, DWK might count as a True Dragon depending on if your DM buys a couple of the more hair splitty technicalities (which we won't get into in the interests of not starting another 40 page DWK thread).

The difference is subtle but important, its not really a True Dragon, but could count as one for rules purposes, the same way some creatures attacks count as magic for bypassing damage reduction, but aren't actually magic.

Its easy to exclude DWK from being actual True Dragons. Page nine of the Draconomicion states rather plainly; All true dragons are endothermic.

Kobolds are exothermic.

Sell all your stuff, buy the single most expensive magic ring you can find. Eat it. Done.

Its not really a Hoard anymore at that point, so I wouldn't let that work at my table, but in terms of bending RAW into a prezel, I think you've got a winner.

squiggit

2014-07-11, 12:32 AM

Its not really a Hoard anymore at that point, so I wouldn't let that work at my table, but in terms of bending RAW into a prezel, I think you've got a winner.

So what, two magic rings worth 50k each?

TypoNinja

2014-07-11, 12:46 AM

So what, two magic rings worth 50k each?

Well I mean, I realize there isn't a specific definition for Hoard anywhere, but if you tell somebody "Dragon Hoard" a pretty specific and iconic image pop's into most peoples heads. A pile of loot so large the simple logistics of getting it back to town actually take consideration, the giant mount of coins the Dragon sleeps on, that gleam in the PC's eyes as they whisper the word after surviving brutal combat "Hoard".

Its a thing, its not defined but its a thing, its a staple of Fantasy.

Bronk

2014-07-11, 12:46 PM

Maybe a lot of relatively inexpensive magic rings, then have something very small put them on, resize to fit, then take them off and put them in a cup... then drink the cup? I bet it would be like swallowing cherioes...

Vaz

2014-07-11, 12:59 PM

Regardless, Dragon Ascendant renders you nothing of Divine rank. It makes immortal to natural causes (old age and possibly disease), and you don't need to eat, breathe or drink.

There is a template in Deities and Demigods which provides DvR0 - which means you just need to defeat it. Although AFAIK they only reside in the Nordic Pantheon from D/Demigods which isn't in many published settings.

Einherjer, IIrC

Inevitability

2014-07-11, 01:25 PM

Regardless, Dragon Ascendant renders you nothing of Divine rank. It makes immortal to natural causes (old age and possibly disease), and you don't need to eat, breathe or drink.

It also makes you 'a quasi-deity'. This has explicitly been shown to be divine rank 0 here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm).

Vaz

2014-07-11, 01:51 PM

The effects of Immortality (Ex) are listed here.

Immortality (Ex): A 12th-level dragon ascendant is actually a quasi-deity, and can no longer die from natural causes. It does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. It can still be slain in physical or magical combat, and it is still subject to death from massive damage.

None of which actually states to refer to Deities and Demigods for what actually a quasi-deity is or does, that you actually gain a Divine Rank, or indeed has any additional effects outside of what is presented. If it presents an ability outside of its own book, it is listed, such as for atoning later on in the entry.

A dragon ascendant must be absolutely true to the principles of its alignment, whatever they may be. A dragon ascendant loses its awesome aura if it ever willingly commits an act opposed to its alignment (and it does not regain its frightful presence), and it cannot gain more levels as a dragon ascendant. The dragon can regain its awesome aura and once more advance in the dragon ascendant prestige class if it atones for its violations (see the atonement spell in the Player's Handbook), as appropriate.

Emphasis Mine.

It doesn't provide DvR as it doesn't actually state that, by RAW. However, feel free to otherwise choose, as the youngest a Dragon can be for an Immortalicised Dragon Ascendant is 801 years old and has at least 42 Hit Dice, putting it in those levels of power where it is forced to interact with gods to get any sort of power anyway. If you are playing in those levels, you probably have Divine Godhood anyway, probably by killing a couple of the aforementioned Einherjer anyway.

Bronk

2014-07-11, 02:10 PM

Inevitability

2014-07-11, 02:16 PM

Well, I think what would actually prevent the DWK from taking the dragon ascendant class is the +30 BAB bit. Kobolds don't advance via racial hit dice, so its BAB could only ever hope to reach +20 before hitting the epic bonuses, which aren't the same.

Minimum age for a True Dragon would be whenever it could get to at least +30 BAB with a combination of racial levels and class levels. A force dragon wyrmling could do it, given a very eventful childhood...

Actually, a kobold can gain RHD. First, it casts extended persisted Aspect of the Wolf on itself, and then it awakens itself. It now has 2 RHD, +1d3 charisma, and its intelligence changed. Rinse, repeat.

Vaz

2014-07-11, 02:26 PM

Any character can do that via Polymorph and Dusk Giant, not necessarily a Kobold in particular.

Also;

Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm

I did also forget Epic Dragons (although that's not exactly standard fair when talking about how a PC can gain a Divine Rank tbh), but yes, Force Dragons can get it with as little as 31 years - which honestly is about the sort of time you'd expect an adventurer (assuming 10 EXP gains a level, that's 200 adventures, or around one EXP gain every 2 months or so) to be running around before they retire (assumedly at level 20), so it's not necessarily THAT much of an eventful childhood (although each of those EXP gains does typically mean the killing of an Epic Spellcaster etc, so you could actually say it's quite eventful - although if it's able to fight at such levels with only 1st level spells, well fair play to it then, it's pretty much godlike anyway).

Bronk

2014-07-11, 06:51 PM

not necessarily THAT much of an eventful childhood

I just meant that it isn't necessary that the +30 BAB has to be from dragon racial hit dice. Given the right adventuring life, a wyrmling true dragon can, through class levels and magic, gain the requirements to take the class. So, 0-5 years for a regular true dragon, and 0-10 years for an epic dragon. I brought up the epic dragons because they're much closer to the BAB and CON goals at birth. That's a young dragon quasi-deity of whatever nature!