Stats for a shovel as a weapon?

[AnonymousPepper]

I figure it'd probably just be a regular improvised weapon, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

In my setting, through the wonders of Sigil, basically all of the settings are linked together. The Red Wizards are of course trying to screw with the balance of power on their own home plane by trying to get their hands on magical technology from Eberron. Right now, they're running an archaeological dig for something - what, I can't say, since one of my players comes here - in Xen'drik. Think Raiders of the Lost Ark here. The PCs are about to try to infiltrate the dig site and I figure if they manage to turn the whole camp hostile, the NPC Experts and Commoners on-site that don't just run will probably come at them with picks and shovels. The party is low-enough-leveled that said NPCs matter.

Picks are statted out, so I was wondering if maybe shovels are statted somewhere too.

[FidgetySquirrel]

To my knowledge, shovels aren't statted. So that leaves a couple of options.

1. Homebrew
2. Improvised club/greatclub, depending on the size of the shovel.

[Spore]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Combat_Shovel_%283.5e_Equipment%29

[Jeff the Green]

There's a monk weapon in one of the Eberron books (I think Secrets of Sarlona) that's basically a shovel. I'd make it an improvised that.

[Gildedragon]

Monk's spade: 1d8 bludgeoning (haft) x2/1d8 slashing x3 (shovel bit)

[Zaq]

Now I'm just thinking of the Gouge, a very stupid-looking weapon from 4e that's basically a warshovel.

It also happens to be one of the highest-damaging weapons in the game (because it counts as both an axe and a spear), but you know, details.

But yeah, in all seriousness, just use the stats for a club or a greatclub. BONK!

[Gorfnod]

I really thought this was going to be a thread about creating Shovel Knight in DnD..... oh well...:smallsigh:

[AnonymousPepper]

Thanks, guys.

Now I just have to figure out how not to cause a TPK. >_>

[Barstro]

Same as Club. Change damage type to Slashing. Add a -1 to hit when trying to deal non-lethal (aerodynamics are way off).

I doubt this alone will cause a TPK. Just get the Bowler and the Blue Raja to help.

[JusticeZero]

The important question is this: Is it just a shovel someone grabbed, or is it a shovel that someone has spent a bit of time trying to make into a weapon? A standard shovel is an improvised club. It's unfortunately shaped and not suitable as a weapon stock, because it's shaped to transmit force in directions that don't come up in combat. If you have a bit of time, you can heat it up enough to straighten it, then sharpen it up - then you have a lightly improvised spear that isn't balanced to throw. I wouldn't give it pierce; shovels are wide enough that i'd give them slash even if used to stab. If it hasn't been modified, it's just a bludgeon.

[IAmTehDave]

I'm in a PF campaign where the half-orc rogue is using a shovel as a weapon, using the Heavy Mace stats. I see no reason to really go into fiddly moving parts of a nifty idea if they don't add to the fun of the game.

[Socksy]

A Small-sized shovel deals 1d10 damage. (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/autognome.html) So a Medium shovel should deal 2d8. c:

[Slipperychicken]

Seconding improvised club. The shovels you'd see around an archaeological dig are made for digging, not killing.

[Nibbens]

slightly bigger than a 1d6 club (because of the metal end), but not quite an 1d8 axe (as the head is not specialized for cutting) soooo, i'd say: 1d7 damage! (roll 2d4-1)
:D

[Gildedragon]

Seconding improvised club. The shovels you'd see around an archaeological dig are made for digging, not killing.

Quite the opposite! How else is one supposed to put down an awakened corpse or evil power without proper killing tools. Why last time I was in the field we had to take lich-slaying safety courses...

Now if the monk's spade isn't to your liking: a slashing or bludgeoning weapon would be good: again, undead fighting

[Jeff the Green]

Just because a shovel isn't meant for killing doesn't mean it's a blunt weapon. Particularly the kind you use to get through hard soil can be pretty darn sharp; my grandma once killed a gopher that was tearing up her garden with one.

[JusticeZero]

It can be sharp, but it isn't in line with the force you would use to stab something. It's made to be in line with your hips, not your hands, which means that it is a lot less efficient for damage when not being kicked into the ground. That means that what you pick up off the ground on the spur of the moment is mostly going to be used to bash things; if you try to stab something with armor, it will be unwieldy and lose a lot of bite from trying to twist out of the hands of the wielder.
Also, "can be sharp" doesn't mean that it IS sharp. So it's mostly a bludgeon when you grab it off the ground. As noted, a quick bit of work with a forge and hammer and whetstone will turn it into a passable short polearm, and a less passable digging tool.

[Agent 451]

The shovels you'd see around an archaeological dig are made for digging, not killing.

That may be so, but we still hone them to nigh razor-sharp edges. And if it's a spade vs a shovel you can get a pretty crisp slashing edge. Works wonders for clearing out brush.

[FidgetySquirrel]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Combat_Shovel_%283.5e_Equipment%29Mother of God...

[Gildedragon]

also if it is an archaeological expedition: where is the plumb-bob bolas? the trowel daggers...

[Agent 451]

Folding ruler collapsible poles?

[Gildedragon]

stakes too naturally, acting as stakes

and munsel color chart mundane prismatic spray

roll 1d6 for color

light gley
dark ochre
red ochre
light brown
off white
black

[CIDE]

Shovels are a recognized weapon (that even sometimes includes a little bit of training) in the US Army and IIRC accounted for a great number kills during several wars. I think it's somewhat unfair to treat it as an improvised weapon with all of its negatives; anyone can swing a shovel to kill someone/thing.

[RO-Red]

Shovels are a recognized weapon (that even sometimes includes a little bit of training) in the US Army and IIRC accounted for a great number kills during several wars. I think it's somewhat unfair to treat it as an improvised weapon with all of its negatives; anyone can swing a shovel to kill someone/thing.

Bing! We have a winner. If the shovels good enough to go through compact earth, it's good enough to go through a human body. Depending on the sort of shovels you're envisioning them with, I'd say it has the reach of a polearm and does damage equal to a one-handed axe.

[John Longarrow]

Shovels are a recognized weapon (that even sometimes includes a little bit of training) in the US Army and IIRC accounted for a great number kills during several wars. I think it's somewhat unfair to treat it as an improvised weapon with all of its negatives; anyone can swing a shovel to kill someone/thing.

You are thinking the entrenching tool. It is a lot closer to a spade than a shovel. Length is about the same as a hand axe, flat surface that is larger but about as heavy as a hand axe. Treat as a hand axe that's about twice the weight if used like that.

The current one folds, so it is a lot closer to a hand axe for weigh.

Both the older style and current are normally sharpened along the edge for use in cutting, at least by anyone who needs to use one for cutting. Not as good as a real hand axe, but a lot better than trying to carry a hand axe and a spade.

[Barstro]

I don't really understand why people say it would be a bad weapon. I agree that it would be bad if used "as a shovel". Nobody would stab with it, like sticking it into the ground but horizontally. And bashing someone with the flat would be difficult. But shovels make fine, if mildly less useful for wood, improvised axes and the edge of the shovel can be easily sharpened.

[AnonymousPepper]

Well, the bad situation here would be "business as usual at the dig site, but then the PCs get their cover blown and they get mobbed by a bunch of level 1 commoners and experts."

Would that mean that they'd have their shovels sharpened on the sides like that? I don't know.

[Gildedragon]

Well, the bad situation here would be "business as usual at the dig site, but then the PCs get their cover blown and they get mobbed by a bunch of level 1 commoners and experts."

Would that mean that they'd have their shovels sharpened on the sides like that? I don't know.

Well from dealing with roots and the like, which are inordinately fond of archaeological sites, yeah you sharpen the shovels at least once every few days... or keep some really sharp knives around...

Not all the shovels would be sharp but...

I would say that fighting with a spade or shovel effectively as a slashing or piercing weapon does require some sort of exotic proficiency. One'd use the shovel as a force multiplier for kicks...

again, the sarlona one is based of an IRL weapon meant to be used as a grave-digging tool AND self defense tool.

[JusticeZero]

Shovels are a recognized weapon in the US Army and IIRC accounted for a great number kills during several wars..
Yes, but i've seen an entrenching tool. It isn't a standard shovel in design. It's closer to my suggested "get a forge and straighten it", with some folding and extra fiddly combat bits. It's a bit like the difference between a warhammer vs. a sledgehammer; both of them are hammers, but a warhammer is much lighter, reinforced for combat, and the head is designed for combat instead of bashing inanimate objects. However, a warhammer is still useful for hammering things in the field. If the people setting up the expedition were very worried about combat, they might have used combat shovels, but at the cost of a bit of efficiency as a shovel for digging. Probably, they used standard shovels, which are not designed well for combat without modification.

[Gildedragon]

Yes, but i've seen an entrenching tool. It isn't a standard shovel in design. It's closer to my suggested "get a forge and straighten it", with some folding and extra fiddly combat bits. It's a bit like the difference between a warhammer vs. a sledgehammer; both of them are hammers, but a warhammer is much lighter, reinforced for combat, and the head is designed for combat instead of bashing inanimate objects. However, a warhammer is still useful for hammering things in the field. If the people setting up the expedition were very worried about combat, they might have used combat shovels, but at the cost of a bit of efficiency as a shovel for digging. Probably, they used standard shovels, which are not designed well for combat without modification.

Well yeah, but therein is the difference between exotic weapon and improvised weapon...
One can be proficient in the former, not* in the latter.


*at least easily

[DeltaEmil]

Complete Warrior suggests that a shovel deals 1d6 damage.

[JusticeZero]

Thing is, exotic weapons ARE WEAPONS. Being exotic doesn't neutralize its weapon-ness. Weapons are designed and there are specific goals around which they are designed. You don't completely negate the penalty for trying to drive nails with a decorative candelabra by taking a feat "Exotic Carpentry Proficiency". You can make a carpentry hammer that doubles as a candelabra, but it will be somewhat less amazing as a hammer, and more importantly it will be rather ugly, despite being suitable for standing up and lighting a couple candles on.

[Gildedragon]

Thing is, exotic weapons ARE WEAPONS. Being exotic doesn't neutralize its weapon-ness. Weapons are designed and there are specific goals around which they are designed. You don't completely negate the penalty for trying to drive nails with a decorative candelabra by taking a feat "Exotic Carpentry Proficiency". You can make a carpentry hammer that doubles as a candelabra, but it will be somewhat less amazing as a hammer, and more importantly it will be rather ugly, despite being suitable for standing up and lighting a couple candles on.

That's actually something I was agreeing with.
A battle shovel is meant, well, for battle. The entrenching tool seems to be more along those lines. Thus a WP feat for entrenching tool (or monks spade, or battle pick (heavy or light)) makes sense.

Other shovels are not meant for battle at all, and thus stay firmly in the improv. weapon.
I personally would put the picks from the site as improv weapons dealing the same damage as the battle picks. They are just as dangerous, but much harder to use, even if you've used something similar, because they're just not designed to be used to fight.

[ShurikVch]

I really thought this was going to be a thread about creating Shovel Knight in DnD..... oh well...:smallsigh:
http://rustyandco.com/comics/2012-02-01-level6_04-5fff7711.jpg
http://rustyandco.com/comics/2012-02-08-level6_05-4dd240da.jpg

[JusticeZero]

It still could be! Madeline's shovel is visibly straighter than the default digging shovel, and she cuts with it. That's what a shovel can be after modification. IIRC, now she uses a pitchfork, which is the exact same issue of straightening. They would both operate as a spear after adjustment.