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Gralamin
2007-02-28, 12:29 AM
I've been thinking, why is wisdom used for will saves?


Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition.

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness

How Is Willpower different from Force of Personality? Why is Willpower associated with Wisdom?

marjan
2007-02-28, 12:31 AM
Character's willpower would be the reason. It is associated with it because of rules, but if you don't like you can allways change it. Force of Personality represents ability to influence others, while Willpower represents the ability to resist influence of others.

Gralamin
2007-02-28, 12:32 AM
Character's willpower would be the reason.


How Is Willpower different from Force of Personality? Why is Willpower associated with Wisdom?
Lets answer all of the question shall we?

marjan
2007-02-28, 12:36 AM
Sorry I didn't notice other two questions first time I red it.

Krellen
2007-02-28, 12:39 AM
The three mental stats are roughly anagalous to the physical stats, although different people read them different ways. The way I've always seen them, Charisma is mental strength - how forceful your mind is/can be. Intelligence is mental dexterity - how adroitly your mind twists around problems. Wisdom is mental constitution - how fiercely your mind resists influence and withstands input (which is why it's also associated with senses.)

Since you're not bulling through mental influence nor dodging around it, Wisdom is the best fit.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-02-28, 12:40 AM
I have gone by the rulings in the SRD for Wisdom being that as you note. a Will saving throw is based upon one's mental strength (not mental power, different abiilty score) and resistance to being taken over (either magically/psionically, or mundane [see Sense Motive]). It makes sense to use Wisdom as the Will saving throw modifier.

The feat "Force of Personality" is an interesting feat. It's very specific on what it resists against, but it also makes sense if you wage it against mundane means of control. I think it's a little weak. If I DM'ed, I would rule that if you have this feat (Along with Iron Will, of course) that it uses your CHA mod instead of WIS mod for 'all' WILL saves.

Now, one thing that is peculiar is the "Steadfast Determination" feat. It allows you to use your CON modifier in place of your WIS modifier on all Will saves, and you do not fail Fort saves on a natural 1 on the die. It does not have the restriction that "Force of Personality" does.

Perhaps "force of personality" was one of those feats for a heavy Psi campaign; that may not use the Psi/Magic Transparency rule.

Thomas
2007-02-28, 12:40 AM
Because it was so associated in AD&D, where the only function of Charisma was to determine your maximum number of followers and add a modifier to reaction rolls. Every mental attribute that wasn't clearly Intelligence was conflated under Wisdom, and Charisma was left as a cosmetic ability score.

Anyway, "force of personality" is just another word for charisma. It's describing results more than anything. In D&D 3rd edition, it's gotten some qualities of willpower (mostly because it's now one of the "magical attributes").

Willpower is a process and a quality both; taking actions, making and carrying out plans, persevering in the face of failure or adversity, holding your ground in various situations... willpower is a complicated attribute in itself (no wonder it's a separate attribute in many games, eh?).

Moving willpower under Charisma would be a much better conflation, as those go... it's still grossly inaccurate, but less so than conflating willpower and perceptiveness.

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-28, 12:40 AM
The way I always saw it, Charisma measures your force of personality and the ability to impose your will on reality. In normal circumstances this means that people are attracted to you and more willing to listen to your ideas, because there's "something about you" - something being a loosely defined combination of personality, habits, presentation, mannerisms, external and internal confindence, and a few other things. Combined with magical energies, this results in the ability to make your will manifest on reality with spontaneous spellcasting.

Wisdom (again IMHO) represents your ability to accurately interpret reality, to judge the motives of sentient beings, to determine friend from foe, and to see the likely outcome of events, as well as to work through practical logic sequences. This is what allows you to resist charms and illusions - the rational part of your mind discounts the appearance of an authority figure from your past showing up and telling you what to do as improbable and false - thus providing a successful will save versus illusion. A similar process is used to separate your own thoughts from those the enemy spell is putting in your mind (vs. compulsion). In this manner it is closely linked to intelligence. In the DnD settings, it also allows you to better interpret your Deity's will - and the Deity rewards you with more/more powerful spells.

For grins, Intelligence allows for the working of abstract logical processes, memory, sciences and mathematics, rule sets and patterns (like languages and prepared castings), and also contributes to the learning of skills in general, as well as skills that rely on memory formed from tenuous and rewarding study, like Knowledge: X and Spellcraft.

That help?

Thomas
2007-02-28, 12:43 AM
Jade_Tarem:

I like your differentation. To translate it into terms I'm more comfortable with, Wisdom would measure your sense of Self - your knowledge and confidence in your self, your awareness of yourself as a being (well, we run into issues there with animals), and so on, making plans and understanding yourself; it's a component of willpower, and being internal, Will saves naturally fall under this ability score. Charisma would measure your Will - your ability to act in and on your environment, effecting changes.

Gralamin
2007-02-28, 12:45 AM
This has been very helpful. Thank you.

Sardia
2007-02-28, 12:45 AM
The common sense aspect is big there, too.
Consider saving against a Charm Person spell:
"Hey, a couple minutes ago, I was ready to beat this guy's head in...now I have a vague urge to really like him but I can't think of why...that doesn't make sense, does it?"

Gralamin
2007-02-28, 12:47 AM
*Gralamin Takes a list with Uses for CHA Written on it and crosses off "will save"*

MeklorIlavator
2007-02-28, 12:51 AM
^*questions the existence of such a list*

Gralamin
2007-02-28, 12:54 AM
It exists. It may of only had that on it, but it exists :P

TheOOB
2007-02-28, 12:59 AM
It is kinda pathetic, unless you have a CHA based class ability, CHA is only good for ability and skill checks.

Incidently I've been working on a magic rework where one of the changes is that all spellcasters base their spell save DC off of CHA and their spells/day on int or wis. Someone with a high cha has a stronger sense of self, and thus is able to pull greater amounts of mana into their spells.

At least thats how I justify it.

Fhaolan
2007-02-28, 01:06 AM
I use the same definitions as Krellen does. I've always wanted to sit down and rejigger the way the rules work to make the mental stats map more cleanly with the physcial stats. Intelligence/Dexterity, Wisdom/Constitution, Charisma/Strength. Psionic combats and similar magic [charms, and the like] would use a mental AC based on Int, mental HP based on Wisdom, and mental attacks based off of Charisma.

But then I think about how much work that would be for such little return and abandon the project.

The only place I've ever seen these mappings actually used was in 2nd edition Astral travel (I think, I might be misremembering which plane it was). While on the Astral plane, your mental stats replaced your physical stats for movement, combat, etc. Also, there was at least one 2nd edition Psionics variant that did something similar. I think it was in one of the Dark Sun supplements.

Demented
2007-02-28, 01:22 AM
Uses for Charisma:
Skill Checks
Ability Checks
Spontaneous Casting
Undead (Turning, bolstering, or even being Undead)

Uses for Wisdom
Skill Checks
Ability Checks
Divine Casting
Will Saves

Hm.

oriong
2007-02-28, 01:40 AM
I wouldn't be so quick to cross this off the charisma list. Sure there are valid fluff reasons to link it to Wisdom, but there are also valid fluff reasons to link it to Charisma too. Both work just fine and it wouldn't be unbalancing.


Uses for Charisma:
Skill Checks
Ability Checks
Spontaneous Casting
Undead (Turning, bolstering, or even being Undead)

Uses for Wisdom
Skill Checks
Ability Checks
Divine Casting
Will Saves


This list is pretty deceptive. First, it shouldnt' consider class or race specific uses at all except maybe as a tiebreaker.

Taking that into account Wisdom works for 3 things (skill, ability, and will saves), charisma works for two (skill and ability). Now, consider this as well: there are no charisma checks for all intents and purposes. The only one I'm aware of is the check to deal with a chaos beast. Wisdom doesn't have many ability checks but they exist (such as non-skill sensory checks like smell, taste and touch).

Overall wisdom is very clearly more useful in general.

TheOOB
2007-02-28, 01:43 AM
Though if you took away will saves from Wisdom that stat would be in the same place cha is, just used for class abilities and a few skills.

oriong
2007-02-28, 01:49 AM
Though if you took away will saves from Wisdom that stat would be in the same place cha is, just used for class abilities and a few skills.

Not really, it would be worse off but it wouldn't be useless. Charisma's skill options are pretty much useless to anyone not investing in them actively, they're all social and one person in the group can completely pick up the slack for the rest with rare exceptions. There's really no other use.

Wisdom on the other hand is applied to some of the most important skills in the game: Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive. These are things that everyone finds useful, if for no other reason than most of the time everyone in the party can make these rolls and have a chance of sensing things (not to mention the usefulness of evading the suprise round). As I pointed out above it's also used for more ability checks than charisma is.

Wisdom will be worse off without Will saves, but it won't be an 'auto-dump' stat.

Swordguy
2007-02-28, 01:50 AM
I keep being tempted to use a "best of 2" method of determining saves, where your attribute modifer is the better of either of the 2 linked attributes:

FORT: Str/Con
REF: Dex/INT
WIL: Wis/Cha

It's not all that big a difference, in practice. And it can help in save-or-suck hevay games, by minimizing the number of smaller save modifiers.

Wehrkind
2007-02-28, 01:58 AM
Yea, I kind of lean towards that as well. For some reason I was convinced for months that the average of your Wis/Cha, or Str/Con were used for Will Saves or Fort saves, respectively.
I don't know why, but I got it into my head, and it still lives there.

Sardia
2007-02-28, 02:00 AM
I keep being tempted to use a "best of 2" method of determining saves, where your attribute modifer is the better of either of the 2 linked attributes:

FORT: Str/Con
REF: Dex/INT
WIL: Wis/Cha

It's not all that big a difference, in practice. And it can help in save-or-suck hevay games, by minimizing the number of smaller save modifiers.

Too generous, I'd say. Make it the worse of the two and I might follow you.
After all, if you break someone's legs and give him a headband of intellect, his ability to dodge isn't going to do so well overall.

Swordguy
2007-02-28, 02:02 AM
Too generous, I'd say. Make it the worse of the two and I might follow you.
After all, if you break someone's legs and give him a headband of intellect, his ability to dodge isn't going to do so well overall.

MAD much?

That's a-WAY to harsh. Now, being able to choose which attribute to use based on the situation may be the best compromise, but has the higher complexity as well.

Sardia
2007-02-28, 02:17 AM
MAD much?

That's a-WAY to harsh. Now, being able to choose which attribute to use based on the situation may be the best compromise, but has the higher complexity as well.

Seems to fit, though, although you might have to adjust save DCs with that in mind when designing or running an adventure.
And casually having a dump stat becomes a much harder choice.
Giving players hard choices is almost always fun.

Miles Invictus
2007-02-28, 02:19 AM
...besides, broken legs probably gives a massive circumstance penalty to AC.

Instead of using the higher of the two modifiers, you could give players an additional bonus if the secondary attribute is high.

For example, say you have a Con score of 14, a +2 modifier, and you have a Str score of 18, a +4 modifier. Constitution is the primary stat for Fortitude saves, so you get your entire Con modifier as a bonus. Strength is the secondary stat -- you don't get your entire Str modifier. But, because the modifier is above 0, you gain an extra +1 to Fort saves.

Sardia
2007-02-28, 02:26 AM
Or just add the modifiers, I suppose.

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-28, 02:41 AM
*snip* there are no charisma checks for all intents and purposes. The only one I'm aware of is the check to deal with a chaos beast. *snip*

And to fight for control when binding creatures and stuff like that. It's nearly always an opposed charisma check.

Everything else you said was valid; I just cut this out to be picky.

TheOOB
2007-02-28, 02:45 AM
I belive charisma can also be used to determine what peoples initial reactions are twords you before you have a chance to get your diplomacy on.

Demented
2007-02-28, 03:14 AM
And to fight for control when binding creatures and stuff like that. It's nearly always an opposed charisma check.

Everything else you said was valid; I just cut this out to be picky.

On that subject....
In addition to the chaos beast resistance, there's a charisma check to resist doing something you wouldn't ordinarily do while charmed, and to throw off being enthralled. (In an obscure fashion, there's a check to regain control of a berserk flesh golem as well. However, you have to be the creator, and you can't be the creator without casting spells, therefore, class-specific.)

On wisdom's side, we have wisdom checks for tracking by scent, figuring out you have a lycanthropy problem, and navigating a plane with subjective gravity (obscure, yet practical).

*hugs easily-searchable SRD*

prufock
2007-02-28, 08:02 AM
How Is Willpower different from Force of Personality?
Force of personality is active (persuading others), willpower is reactive (resisting persuasion).


Why is Willpower associated with Wisdom?
Wisdom is your ability to notice and thus react to situations (spot, listen, sense motive). A large part of resisting persuasion is recognizing it.

Jayabalard
2007-02-28, 08:11 AM
MAD much?

That's a-WAY to harsh. Now, being able to choose which attribute to use based on the situation may be the best compromise, but has the higher complexity as well.I don't see a problem with it.

If you want to be slightly nicer, use the average of the 2.

Swordguy
2007-02-28, 08:24 AM
I don't see a problem with it.

If you want to be slightly nicer, use the average of the 2.

It's hideously harsh because of the ease that spell DC's are pumped up. Non-paladins/monks have a hard enough time making saving throws vs spells as it is. There's absolutely no reason to make their lives any harder (by forcing the lower of the 2 saves).

Thomas
2007-02-28, 08:46 AM
Wisdom is your ability to notice and thus react to situations (spot, listen, sense motive). A large part of resisting persuasion is recognizing it.

But persuasion isn't resisted with Will saves. Magical effects, fear, etc. are.

Person_Man
2007-02-28, 02:11 PM
Wis and Cha are both dump stats - you should only put points into them if they're needed for a specific class ability. Moving the Will Save bonus from one to the other wouldn't change anything.

My hope is that in the next edition they combine them into a single stat (Personality?) so that it would be more useful. But given how iconic the six stats have become over the years, that's highly doubtful.

TheOOB
2007-02-28, 02:26 PM
Well, if the game was more socially oriented charisma wouldn't be that bad of a stat even if it only worked for social skills.

The fact that will saves are associated with wisdom makes wisdom NOT a dump stat. Saving throws are of paramount importance in D&D, almost as important as AC, low saving throws will spell the instant and likely very messy death of your character, especially of said saving throw is wisdom, which has the largest collection of save-or-lose spells in the game (dominate person anyone).

Moving will to cha would make wis a dump stat and cha an important stat. The difference is you don't neccesarly need to be socially adept in order to have a strong will power, thus your forcing people into a roleplaying corner.

oriong
2007-02-28, 02:30 PM
Well, if the game was more socially oriented charisma wouldn't be that bad of a stat even if it only worked for social skills.

The fact that will saves are associated with wisdom makes wisdom NOT a dump stat. Saving throws are of paramount importance in D&D, almost as important as AC, low saving throws will spell the instant and likely very messy death of your character, especially of said saving throw is wisdom, which has the largest collection of save-or-lose spells in the game (dominate person anyone).

Moving will to cha would make wis a dump stat and cha an important stat. The difference is you don't neccesarly need to be socially adept in order to have a strong will power, thus your forcing people into a roleplaying corner.

No more than it is now, does someone with strong willpower automatically have a great deal of perception? Or a great deal of common sense? No.

And really, even if it does affect a saving throw its still a dump stat since if you have a bad will save then you're going to fail most saves anyway after you get out of the lower (1-4) levels. The fact that you're 'losing' your save stat doesn't make much difference.

TheOOB
2007-02-28, 02:45 PM
Well, if you have to tie will to one stat, wisdom does seem to make the most sense.

If you really have a problum with things play a different system. For example shadowrun has four mental attributes, logic, iniution, willpower, and charisma, and each of their rolls is pretty defined.

oriong
2007-02-28, 02:50 PM
Well, if you have to tie will to one stat, wisdom does seem to make the most sense.

Not really, it only makes sense because 'Wisdom' has been synonomous with 'will' for pretty much the whole of D+D's existance, the two concepts really have nothing to do with each other. It fits into charisma as 'sense of self' or 'force of personality' just as easily.


If you really have a problum with things play a different system. For example shadowrun has four mental attributes, logic, iniution, willpower, and charisma, and each of their rolls is pretty defined.

Or you could change it so that Will Saves use your charisma bonus instead of your wisdom bonus, which is much easier, doesn't require new books or learning a new system.

MeklorIlavator
2007-02-28, 02:56 PM
Wisdom is your ability to notice and thus react to situations (spot, listen, sense motive). A large part of resisting persuasion is recognizing it.

This actually makes a good case for moving initiative to wisdom(your analyzing your surroundings). I believe that if that were done, will saves would be moved to Charisma(wizard's flavor reflects this, the whole resisting-due-to willpower). Of course, this would make mad even worse.

Matthew
2007-02-28, 04:24 PM
Wisdom is used for Willpower Saves because:



Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition.


I will take this opportunity to advocate double Attributes for Save Modifiers:



Add together the worst Attribute Penalty and best Attribute Bonus:

Fortitude: Strength and Constitution
Reflex: Dexterity and Intelligence
Will: Wisdom and Charisma

i.e.
+1 and -1 = +0
+1 and +1 = +1
-1 and -1 = -1

prufock
2007-02-28, 06:00 PM
This actually makes a good case for moving initiative to wisdom(your analyzing your surroundings). I believe that if that were done, will saves would be moved to Charisma(wizard's flavor reflects this, the whole resisting-due-to willpower). Of course, this would make mad even worse.

I'm of mixed opinion about that. On the surface, it seems to make sense, but I like it the way it is. The assessing the situation part comes into play with surprise rounds, while dexterity seems more appropriate for physical reactions. You notice first (wisdom), then you react (dexterity).
Plus, I like the way charisma is active while wisdom is passive. It makes sense to me.

prufock
2007-02-28, 06:31 PM
But persuasion isn't resisted with Will saves. Magical effects, fear, etc. are.

Well, I'm comparing will saves to sense motive, mostly, as both use wisdom, and both are reactive rather than active.
I consider most of those effects to be magical persuasion - illusion and enchantment, anyway. The save for illusion effects results in disbelieving the effect (analogous with disbelieving a bluff attempt), and the save versus enchantment resists a change in cognition or emotion. Likewise, the opposed roll for intimidate checks is modified by wisdom.

Indon
2007-03-01, 09:02 AM
I will take this opportunity to advocate double Attributes for Save Modifiers:

A problem I see with that:

Certain creatures don't have int over 3, as per their type, such as animals. You'd be severely hurting their reflex saves.

Thomas
2007-03-01, 09:20 AM
Well, I'm comparing will saves to sense motive, mostly, as both use wisdom, and both are reactive rather than active.
I consider most of those effects to be magical persuasion - illusion and enchantment, anyway. The save for illusion effects results in disbelieving the effect (analogous with disbelieving a bluff attempt), and the save versus enchantment resists a change in cognition or emotion. Likewise, the opposed roll for intimidate checks is modified by wisdom.

But Bluff isn't persuasion - it's deception and fast-talk. Diplomacy would be persuasion (and you don't resist Diplomacy).


Wisdom is used for Willpower Saves because:


Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition.

Now that's circular reasoning...

Indon
2007-03-01, 10:10 AM
Now that's circular reasoning...

It would be if the D&D definition of Wisdom existed independently of whatever it was defined as in game. But it doesn't. Stats do what they are defined and designed to do.

Yes, it's possible to poorly model reality with a game system (imagine if Str added to will saves), and you can indeed argue from that. But, wisdom (or any of the mental stats) is not exactly well-defined in reality, and as such, I'd say that will saves from wisdom is about as defensible as will saves from any other mental stat.

Pocket lint
2007-03-01, 11:06 AM
I will take this opportunity to advocate double Attributes for Save Modifiers:

Add together the worst Attribute Penalty and best Attribute Bonus:

Fortitude: Strength and Constitution
Reflex: Dexterity and Intelligence
Will: Wisdom and Charisma

i.e.
+1 and -1 = +0
+1 and +1 = +1
-1 and -1 = -1
I would make that:
Fortitude: Strength and Constitution
Reflex: Dexterity and Wisdom
Will: Intelligence and Charisma

Now, if *I* was designing the game (hah), I would reshuffle the mental attribute names into Perception and Willpower. I'd also make Con = Str + 1d6-5

But that's just me...

Matthew
2007-03-01, 01:52 PM
Now that's circular reasoning...

Seems fairly linear to me, cause and effect.

I think Intelligence and Dexterity go fairly well together and Wisdom and Charisma, but that's keeping in mind the D&D definitions of these Attributes.

Talya
2007-03-01, 02:48 PM
The three mental stats are roughly anagalous to the physical stats, although different people read them different ways. The way I've always seen them, Charisma is mental strength - how forceful your mind is/can be. Intelligence is mental dexterity - how adroitly your mind twists around problems. Wisdom is mental constitution - how fiercely your mind resists influence and withstands input (which is why it's also associated with senses.)

Since you're not bulling through mental influence nor dodging around it, Wisdom is the best fit.

I just want to say, this is the best explanation and description i've ever seen for both Wisdom = Will save and Charisma-based spellcasting. It also helps explain a number of skills and the ability they rely on.

Matthew
2007-03-01, 05:38 PM
A problem I see with that:

Certain creatures don't have int over 3, as per their type, such as animals. You'd be severely hurting their reflex saves.

True, poor little blighters. The whole Animal Intelligence thing is a bit of a minefield. Have to have a think about that.

Sardia
2007-03-01, 09:39 PM
True, poor little blighters. The whole Animal Intelligence thing is a bit of a minefield. Have to have a think about that.

It might work in most game-related cases, though. The wizard pulls bat guano out of his spell pouch and the rogue starts to duck. The animal just stands there and growls, waiting for something threatening to happen.
Really takes the edge off the head start.

oriong
2007-03-01, 09:43 PM
It might work in most game-related cases, though. The wizard pulls bat guano out of his spell pouch and the rogue starts to duck. The animal just stands there and growls, waiting for something threatening to happen.
Really takes the edge off the head start.

Yeah, but that falls apart since you're assuming the rogue has foreknowledge of what's going to happen and the animal doesn't, more realistically the rogue has no more idea what the wizard is about to do than the animal does, and both are just as off guard if the spell comes from an unseen caster or location.

Sardia
2007-03-01, 09:51 PM
Yeah, but that falls apart since you're assuming the rogue has foreknowledge of what's going to happen and the animal doesn't, more realistically the rogue has no more idea what the wizard is about to do than the animal does, and both are just as off guard if the spell comes from an unseen caster or location.

Didn't say it'd work in all cases, but it would cover a good number of them.
Anyhow, the rogue has presumably practiced ducking, covering, and generally knowing to react to the unexpected by getting out of the way. The animal (or the fighter, for that matter) might have a "Huh?" moment.

oriong
2007-03-01, 09:55 PM
Well, yeah that's why the rogue has a good reflex save and eventually the evasion ability. But an animal is probably just as likely to react well to sudden danger. After all if you don't have the instinct and the reflexes to get out of the way fast when something bigger than you leaps out of the bushes you aren't going to survive very long in the wild.

Sardia
2007-03-01, 10:07 PM
After all if you don't have the instinct and the reflexes to get out of the way fast when something bigger than you leaps out of the bushes you aren't going to survive very long in the wild.

Well, that's why the predators don't all starve to death...