4th Edition STRaladin

[Zekkoth]

The character's Paladin no longer exists

[Mando Knight]

It's too bad you've got a Paragon Path already locked in, as Champion of Order is extremely strong, particularly with the opportunity attack added to your Divine Challenge as well as one of the strongest lockdown powers in the game... with a +4 baked-in attack bonus and as an Encounter power rather than a Daily.

You don't get nearly as much out of Constitution as you do out of either Wisdom or Charisma. Pick one of those to focus on instead of pumping your Con. The riders and class-based feats depend on those two stats, while all you're getting out of Con are the axe and heavy armor feats (and a small amount of HP and a couple of surges, neither of which should be problems for Paladins in most cases anyway). Axe Mastery isn't really worth the pickup, IMO, since by Epic the Strength Paladin's ability to one-shot enemies is mostly just gone, and there's a lot more interesting feats in even just Divine Power for a Paladin to take than +5% crit chance. Dex does nothing for you except Reflex, which a shield covers about as well with less stat investment. Unlike a Fighter, who can build up incredible opportunity attack synergy, there's really no reason to go with a halberd instead of sword-and-board and then waste feats on redundant defense boosters (Improved, Paragon, and Robust Defenses are all feat bonuses, IIRC).

Take Mighty Challenge as early as possible in the build. Without high Charisma or Champion of Order, your Challenge is pretty weak, which isn't what you want when you're the "main" Defender (Essentials-style aura-based Defenders generally have a lot harder time enforcing their presence than mark-based Defenders).

[Yakk]

Well, given that you have barred optimizing paragon paths and epic destinies, that leaves us with feats and powers and non-magical weapons and stats.

CHA: 19 -- odd cha, bad.

Weapon: Carrikal/Halberd -- you are a defender. Use a shield.

Heavy Armour Agility - meh
Improved Initiative - conflicts with superior initiative
Skill Training (perception) - never. Multiclass instead
Axe Expertise - Take the expertise that grants your allies a shield bonus to AC instead (needs a shield, but you should use one)
Weapon Focus (axe) - You probably are not tapping 2-3 times per round. Boost something else.
Mighty Challenge - feat tax
Human Perserverance -- ok I guess, but marginal
Deadly Axe -- You aren't a crit fisher.
Honoured Foe -- You dumped wisdom, why take this?
Armour Specialization (plate) -- feat for 1 AC. Ok.
Improved Defenses - Good if you aren't doing the other superiors
Superior Will - required
Paragon Defenses - does not stack with improved defences
Axe Mastery - stop pretending to be a striker
Paladin's Truth - you doing elemental cheese? You should, but where is it? Paragon path or epic destiny?
Robust Defenses - again, does not stack
Superior Initiative - ok
Torm's radiance - two ways to ignore resistance? Huh?
Great Fortitude - why not superior fortitude? Strictly better feat. And if you are doing sup fort and will, do a reflex-specific feat boost instead of improved defences.

[Mando Knight]

Also, game math assumes that you're getting enhancement bonuses, so even if you're not getting magic items, you should be getting Inherent Bonuses, which essentially do the same thing, and the DM should allow you to upgrade your plate armor to masterwork as it would normally become available because forcing heavy armor to be weaker than even marginally-invested light armor at high levels is just insane: your endgame listed AC is level+6, when monster attack rolls against AC are generally level+5. Defender AC should be at least level+16, as a lowball estimate. Paladin AC is easily higher thanks to free plate proficiency, so at level 30 with absolute minimal investment (equivalent of +6 godplate and a heavy shield), you should have 47 AC.

[Zekkoth]

Well, given that you have barred optimizing paragon paths and epic destinies, that leaves us with feats and powers and non-magical weapons and stats.

CHA: 19 -- odd cha, bad.

Weapon: Carrikal/Halberd -- you are a defender. Use a shield.

Heavy Armour Agility - meh
Improved Initiative - conflicts with superior initiative
Skill Training (perception) - never. Multiclass instead
Axe Expertise - Take the expertise that grants your allies a shield bonus to AC instead (needs a shield, but you should use one)
Weapon Focus (axe) - You probably are not tapping 2-3 times per round. Boost something else.
Mighty Challenge - feat tax
Human Perserverance -- ok I guess, but marginal
Deadly Axe -- You aren't a crit fisher.
Honoured Foe -- You dumped wisdom, why take this?
Armour Specialization (plate) -- feat for 1 AC. Ok.
Improved Defenses - Good if you aren't doing the other superiors
Superior Will - required
Paragon Defenses - does not stack with improved defences
Axe Mastery - stop pretending to be a striker
Paladin's Truth - you doing elemental cheese? You should, but where is it? Paragon path or epic destiny?
Robust Defenses - again, does not stack
Superior Initiative - ok
Torm's radiance - two ways to ignore resistance? Huh?
Great Fortitude - why not superior fortitude? Strictly better feat. And if you are doing sup fort and will, do a reflex-specific feat boost instead of improved defences.

First, I thank you for pointing out the flaws that seemed to be gapingly obvious to paladin players, that helps me see which ones were pretty ****. However I would also appreciate if you could tell me better replacements for them, because just saying that they are bad doesnt help improve it, there are lots more feats that are probably bad too, so the good ones would help :) Besides the ones you pointed out already, of course :)

[Zekkoth]

Also, game math assumes that you're getting enhancement bonuses, so even if you're not getting magic items, you should be getting Inherent Bonuses, which essentially do the same thing, and the DM should allow you to upgrade your plate armor to masterwork as it would normally become available because forcing heavy armor to be weaker than even marginally-invested light armor at high levels is just insane: your endgame listed AC is level+6, when monster attack rolls against AC are generally level+5. Defender AC should be at least level+16, as a lowball estimate. Paladin AC is easily higher thanks to free plate proficiency, so at level 30 with absolute minimal investment (equivalent of +6 godplate and a heavy shield), you should have 47 AC.

Thanks man, but I should have mentioned that magic items do exist in the world, its not magic barred, the halberd exists because I am in possession currently of a magic halberd. The ac bonuses and stuff are so hard to understand for me who usually plays nothing but raw damage, so its a pretty big system change.

[GPuzzle]

Alright, here it goes:
First, do not dump Wis. That's key. Wis is very important to all Paladins

Battle Awareness
Wary Fighter
Improved Initiative (retrains into Superior Initiative)
Strength Through Challenge
Devout Protector Expertise
Weakening Challenge
Mighty Challenge
Divine Mastery
Honoured Foe
Armour Specialization (plate)
Improved Defenses
Superior Will
Epic Reflexes
Paladin's Truth
Forceful Opportunist
Hindering Shield
Overwhelming Impact
Bludgeon Expertise

Go with a Bradaman's Warhammer, be a Champion of the Order, find a way to keep them close, and watch.

They won't attack your allies, because otherwise it will be VERY painful.

[Zekkoth]

Alright, here it goes:
First, do not dump Wis. That's key. Wis is very important to all Paladins

Battle Awareness
Wary Fighter
Improved Initiative (retrains into Superior Initiative)
Strength Through Challenge
Devout Protector Expertise
Weakening Challenge
Mighty Challenge
Divine Mastery
Honoured Foe
Armour Specialization (plate)
Improved Defenses
Superior Will
Epic Reflexes
Paladin's Truth
Forceful Opportunist
Hindering Shield
Overwhelming Impact
Bludgeon Expertise

Go with a Bradaman's Warhammer, be a Champion of the Order, find a way to keep them close, and watch.

They won't attack your allies, because otherwise it will be VERY painful.

Thankyou for the suggestions in feats, unfortunately because of storyline, I was asked by the GM to take what I have, I cant become a champion of the order, which I have heard is very good. It's a bummer, but its one I have to live with.

[Yakk]

Slashing Storm might be tempting. While spending feats on damage output is often a bad idea, being able to deal Wis auto-damage every round to every adjacent foe if you hit someone is pretty good (and, as a defender, you will seek to be surrounded anyhow).

I'm a bit leery about pumping wisdom. The problem is that you need Cha for your marks, and Mighty Challenge only works on **one** of your marks. Unless you intend to be mainly an off-tank (and let the Berzeker do most of the tanking), you need Divine Sanction based marks to be painful.

One approach would be to ask your DM if you can apply Mighty Challenge to Divine Sanction mark damage, or (if that fails) ask for a Mighty Sanction feat to be homebrewed.

On the other hand, your marks are already pretty weak, and another 8-10 damage probably won't make a huge difference. Getting your marks strong through some other method might be more important than searching for every last point of damage...

[GPuzzle]

Personally, I think that the Straladin's strength lies in it's massive lockdown ability. I mean, Reserve Manuver at 11, pick up Come and Get It, have Winter's Edge, Call of Challenge and Strength from Valor and have World Serpent's Grasp.

T1: Come and Get It, Call of Challenge, AP, Winter's Edge.
T2: Strength from Valor.

That should be enough for a few rounds of lockdown.

Honestly, Straladin|Fighter hybrids are just superior to pure Straladins and are actually pretty competitive with Fighters. Lose +1 to hit, gain a whole new are in surviving. Besides, Come and Get It, Virtue, AP, Winter's Edge followed by Strength from Valor is really freaking awesome when you're a Straladin|Fighter - nets you two rounds of lockdown with extreme surviving, especially if you're an Adroit Explorer.

[Sol]

Guardian of the Land is actually a really cool paragon path. Not great, really, and particularly weak for a paladin (since you have no punishment you can use with its generic mark other than its E11), but it's not the worst thing in the world either.

Since your DM has locked you into taking it, I'd ask permission for its marks to work as Divine Sanctions, even if that ability cost you a feat slot.

To pair with its at-will U12 teleport, you could consider taking a bunch of teleport riders, such as Feywild Flanker (would require MC Warlord and Eladrin, unless your DM is nice) or a Cloak of Translocation for +2 untyped to AC/Reflex any time you teleport.

[Zekkoth]

Thankyou ALL for the input and the advice, I got some good news from my DM!! Once I hit level 6 I am allowed to remake my character, (must stay human paladin (of course)) and I can be anything I want, I'm not constrained to primal guardian, guardian of the land or exalted angel. I humbly request advice on the creatings of a weapon/board paladin. I'd like to be the big tank, I came to terms that Im not a striker, which kinda sucks but Im okay with it if I can stop the enemy from hitting my allies, and then forcing them to hit me, and missing. Any advice/build path you can give me would be GREATLY appreciated!

Have a good day, and I look forward to suggestions and characters that would be very interesting/tanky!

[GPuzzle]

Do you need to go Straladin, or you can go Chaladin? Straladins actually reach Chaladins if they spend two feats and get 4 Encounter Powers, but until then the Chaladin runs away with it, and the Straladin needs an awful lot of stuff (4 feats off the top of my head for two rounds of lockdown) to catch up.

[Zekkoth]

Do you need to go Straladin, or you can go Chaladin? Straladins actually reach Chaladins if they spend two feats and get 4 Encounter Powers, but until then the Chaladin runs away with it, and the Straladin needs an awful lot of stuff (4 feats off the top of my head for two rounds of lockdown) to catch up.

I am allowed to reshift my beginning stats. Therefore yes I can go Chaladin.
Beginning stats are
16,16,14,14,12,10
And we will be at level 6 whence I am allowed to remake.
Keep in mind though that my ally barbarians defender aura and my marks do not work side by side and that my marks cancel his defender aura's debuff

[Mando Knight]

Your Divine Challenge should be the stronger of the two anyway, don't even worry about the Barbarian's aura. In fact, if they sit in the aura while they're marked by you, they're probably not intending to attack you (and possibly the Barbarian instead), and will thus trigger your mark.

Chaladin can completely drop Strength if they want, but I don't like to (I honestly prefer balanced paladins, but Dragonborn are generally better at that, IIRC). With those starting stats, don't put anything less than 14 into Wis. I'd go with 16/14/12/10/14/16 down the line unless you plan on taking Heavy Blade Opportunity somewhere down the line, where you'll want a bit more Dex.

Either way, make sure you have ways of passing out Divine Sanction to things that aren't your main (Divine Challenged) target, since that's one of the Paladin's strengths, the ability to punish multiple opponents in one round without them even being near the Paladin.

Besides the Fighter multiclass, you could also look into Cleric or Warlord, if your team needs more healing or buffing ability.

[Yakk]

Consider the Hybrid Paladin|Fighter mentioned above, but *only* if you like game mechanically complex things for their own sake.

[Zekkoth]

Hey guys I've been trying out your suggestions but I keep running into the same problem of various feats being unavailable when taking hybrid paladin/fighter or paladin/warlord. The latter removes my proficiency with plate, and the former takes away various feats that I can get. And when I run straight Paladin, I also miss out on feats. I'm honestly not sure what to do, the 4e character builder isnt really helping me out lol

[Inevitability]

Hey guys I've been trying out your suggestions but I keep running into the same problem of various feats being unavailable when taking hybrid paladin/fighter or paladin/warlord. The latter removes my proficiency with plate, and the former takes away various feats that I can get. And when I run straight Paladin, I also miss out on feats. I'm honestly not sure what to do, the 4e character builder isnt really helping me out lol

Be more specific. What are you trying to do with this build? What are those feats you speak of? And you know that a paladin|fighter still wouldn't be able to wear plate, right?

[Zekkoth]

Ah yes of course how silly of me to forget the most important part :smallredface:

My goal is to become a straight out tank, able to mark everything and anyone is sight so that if the enemy is silly enough to attack others, they'll be pretty damn hurt. (Honestly 4e is really weird, and this is a completely NEW type of character I'm playing here)

In terms of feats I actually managed to work around my unproficiency with platemail, by sinking 2 feats into Armoured Warlord and then Armour Proficiency: Plate, which is probably very terrible, but my strength doesnt lay in 4th edition, nor with tanks, so I honestly have no clue how to create an effective one, instead of falling down every hit I take in later levels.

[GPuzzle]

Uhm... Nope. Plate isn't that much of a difference compared to Scale.

Paladin|Fighter is powerful if played correctly. With two feats and some very specific power-choice, you become a mass of lockdown, because enemies have to attack the guy with a surge worth of THP/40 THP/resist all equal to his STR modifier+some THP thrown in for good measure, because they can't run away because they're immobilized/prone. And that's available by level 13.

It's a very power-based way of defending, much like Wardens. Warden|Fighter is also pretty great in that regard. The thing with that is that Fighters are very sticky to one foe by nature. They don't particulary excel at survivability and keeping multiple enemies nearby, which is the Warden and the Straladin's strength.

Now that I think of it, the Straladin is basically a Warden without II.

In the end, it boils down to being able to make an enemy have one very bad choice: attack the overly tough guy.

By the way, that sequence on the start is T1: Come and Get It, Virtue, AP Winter's Edge, T2: Strength from Valor+World Serpent's Grasp, T3: that Paladin U6 that gives you STR resist all, Daring Shout, Winter's Edge, on a Straladin|Fighter/Adroit Explorer with Combat Superiority as the Hybrid Talent.

[Zekkoth]

So are you suggesting that I go hybrid paladin|warden? I can give it a try, I just want to get it right and well done, because this is the last remake I am allowed before I have to stick with what I have.

[GPuzzle]

No, not that. Both the Straladin and the Warden lack a way to draw people in - they come online at level 23 for the Straladin and 17 for the Warden. They're pretty good, though - the Straladin's immobilizes if they're marked, the Warden is basically a Fighter E23 with a slide added to it, that doesn't have the Charm keyword and comes online 6 levels earlier.

And that's where the Fighter shines. His way to draw the entire battlefield nearby so you can hold it by using other's powers comes online at level 7. And it marks EVERYONE.

The deal is - drawing people in and making sure they stay put when provoking OAs or shift is the Fighter side of the equation: surviving the attacks and making sure they cannot shift is the Straladin or Warden side of the equation.