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brian c
2007-02-28, 01:57 AM
Corpsecrafter (Libris Mortis) says that "each undead you raise... gains a +4 enhancement to strength and +2 hp per hit die"

Is it +4 str/HD and +2hp/HD, or just a flat +4 str and then +2hp/HD? The former seems it would be a bit overpowered.

marjan
2007-02-28, 02:20 AM
I think it's flat +4 to STR. Otherwise it would be to good to miss.

TheOOB
2007-02-28, 02:27 AM
Even if it was per hit die enhancement bonuses don't stack.

However in generally, when the rules mention something per level/round/minute ect, it usually only applies to the statement immediatly proceeding it.

brian c
2007-02-28, 02:28 AM
Even if it was per hit die enhancement bonuses don't stack.

Good call. Still a good feat though for a necromancer.

JaronK
2007-02-28, 02:38 AM
Yeah. Note that the strength boost doesn't stack with other enhancement boosts either, such as the Dread Necromancer's +4 Str or the Necromancer Wizard Varient's version of the same.

The HPs do stack, though.

JaronK

TheOOB
2007-02-28, 02:50 AM
Well, if your getting into serious animating corpsecrafting is a must, the STR bonus helps offset the low attack bonus, and the hp helps offset the lack of a con score, plus several other good feats come off of corpsecrafter. I always liked the one that makes zombies blow up. It sucks, but it's funny.

JaronK
2007-02-28, 02:55 AM
Doesn't suck at all. It heals nearby zombies, and if you put explosive runes on the little guy, then they blow up (most DMs will rule that destroying the surface the runes are on counts as an erasure attempt. If they don't, they open the door to a lot more abuse). A single human zombie covered in explosive runes can take out almost anything that kills it, leading to serious hilarity.

If you really wanted to max out the undead power, try Wizard (Necromancer) 1/Dread Necromancer X/Palemaster 2. Take Corpsecrafter, do all your animating in desecrated areas, and take the varient necromancer out of Unearthed Arcana that gives a boost to undead created. All undead you create will now have +4 Str, +4 Dex, and +8Hps/HD, plus you can create them without paying material costs, making them the ultimate shock troops. As a Dread Necromancer, you can of course heal them easily and have enourmous numbers of them.

JaronK

TheOOB
2007-02-28, 03:06 AM
In the long run I usually focus on just having a couple powerful minions rather then an army of weak ones. The bookkeeping just gets to be too much and your only one turn attempt away from a half sized army.

Quietus
2007-02-28, 03:03 PM
Perhaps, but I believe there's also a feat that builds off of Corpsecrafter that grants all undead you create +4 turn resistance, and then there's another Libris Mortis feat that gives all undead within 60 feet of you an additional +4. Which means your army of zombies are now effectively all 10 HD for the purposes of turning. THAT, I assure you, is thoroughly frustrating to anyone trying to destroy your army. For more fun, use the True Necromancer, and at level 14 you have 140 foot radius desecrate around you at all times, and carrying a darkskull makes you have an Unhallow, as well.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-28, 03:10 PM
Archivist 5/Wizard 5/Mystic Theurge 10 makes a very good "army of zombies" type, especially since he can prepare undead summoning/creating spells on both sides and gets a metric ton of negative energy spells to heal his minions.

EDIT: I have not considered a Sorceror/Wizard/Ultimate Magus in the same situation yet, and I don't know if it'd be superior.

BCOVertigo
2007-02-28, 04:38 PM
I have a random question.
Would the spell Revive Undead technically be animating and give a fellow PC who is playing an undead benefits from the Corpsecrafter tree if he had been 'deanimated'?

Also what is the general consensus on Undead Leadership? I think a little Slaymate helper would be hilarious (take him/her shopping at a toymaker and horrify everyone else). I'm not usually a big fan of having a horde of minions, but then again you're a minion focused necromancer so the more the merrier I suppose.

TheOOB
2007-02-28, 04:50 PM
Evaulating Undead Leadership is pointless, like normal leadership the feat is primarly a means for the DM to improve party size without having to run an NPC PC.

As for revive undead, I'm pretty sure you have to create the undead in order to benefit from the corpsecrafter feats, which raises the question, if you have corpsecrafter and take the lich template, do you gain the benefits?

BCOVertigo
2007-02-28, 05:04 PM
Evaulating Undead Leadership is pointless, like normal leadership the feat is primarly a means for the DM to improve party size without having to run an NPC PC.

Fair enough.


As for revive undead, I'm pretty sure you have to create the undead in order to benefit from the corpsecrafter feats, which raises the question, if you have corpsecrafter and take the lich template, do you gain the benefits?

Corpsecrafter says 'raised or created with any necromancy spell'.

I don't think lichdom is attained by an actual spell so technically no. But you'd be justified in slapping the DM I think, who's he to say you can't die in an explosive burst of unholy awesome?

As for the Revive Undead trick, after reading through the spell I don't really see how it doesn't meet the criteria. You're taking an inert corpse and putting an animating spirit into it, only difference between that and Animate Dead is that that corpse (probably) never had an undead spirit in it beforehand. Unless of course you're an environmentally friendly necromancer and you recycle.

Quietus
2007-02-28, 05:58 PM
I'd let any necromancer who spent a feat on Corpsecrafter gain the benefits of it; After all, any undead you CAN create are far below the CR you should be fighting to be a notable threat anyway, so really it's just an improved version of Improved Toughness, that you have to die to take advantage of. Hm. maybe, thinking of it in that respect, it might be a bit overpowered...

Noneoyabizzness
2007-02-28, 09:26 PM
corpsecrafter is good for the dread necro in one aspect, it enables the other feats in the corpsecrafting chain. exploding zombies are fun, as are frost empowered ones.

and undead leadership is ok, but living leadership is better. those that die become raw materials for your other legion.

Noneoyabizzness
2007-02-28, 09:29 PM
corpsecrafter is great for the dread necro, just because it can enable the rest of that feat tree, zombiebombs are good, as are frost powered skeletal skirmishers

and who needs undead leadership when real leadership helps out so much? those that fall or prove disloyal become dual use as raw materials and prime examples or what a fragile bond trust between a noble and his people can be.

BCOVertigo
2007-02-28, 09:56 PM
who needs undead leadership when real leadership helps out so much? those that fall or prove disloyal become dual use as raw materials and prime examples or what a fragile bond trust between a noble and his people can be.

The reason I'd prefer undead to living is that I have many resources that will power up a legion of undead and not many that will do the same for the living. If I were to take the corpsecrafter tree, I'd have to segment my army into a group of humans and a group of undead because the undead death would destroy the living, and that's just a waste. Instead of trying to justify it as having free refills, why not just reanimate the corpse if it hasnt been too badly mangled, or simply reanimate my dead enemies? This way my two sources of troops synergize well with eachother as well as my own powers instead of working seperately or even against eachother.

Quietus
2007-02-28, 10:13 PM
I can't remember, exactly - is it possible to have both regular and Undead leadership?

TheOOB
2007-02-28, 10:21 PM
I can't remember, exactly - is it possible to have both regular and Undead leadership?

Only if your DM lets you have both, key thing to note about those feats is that they specifically say your DM must approve their use before you can take em.

Fawsto
2007-02-28, 10:37 PM
There isn't a spell or feat anywhere taht allows you to raise an entire cemetery of undeads in a single casting? Or am I mistaken?

Quietus
2007-02-28, 10:37 PM
Fawsto - Plague of Undead, in the Libris Mortis.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-28, 11:42 PM
Also Animate Legion from Heroes of Battle.

JellyPooga
2007-03-01, 12:01 AM
Whats so great about having a living cohort?

Especially when you can get a better undead one for the same "price".

Then there's the army of Followers that has a maintenance cost of 'nil'. (as opposed to the one that needs tents, food, water and various other supplies)

Personally, I like the Corpsecrafter feat chain...what more could a budding Evil Bad Guy want than a horde of supertough, un-turnable, freezing, exploding skally-wags to defend his volcano lair?

Thomas
2007-03-01, 12:08 AM
Whats so great about having a living cohort?

Especially when you can get a better undead one for the same "price".

"Better" ?

The best cohort is any non-LA straight casting class. No undead creature fills that criteria (except for the Necropolitan, with LA 0 and no racial HD, but that one almost feels like cheating).

And Leadership will already let you take an undead cohort...

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-01, 12:26 AM
Personally, I like the Corpsecrafter feat chain...what more could a budding Evil Bad Guy want than a horde of supertough, un-turnable, freezing, exploding skelly-wags to defend his volcano lair?

"Fixed" for j00! :smallwink:

TheOOB
2007-03-01, 01:17 AM
There needs to be a feat that allows you to make flaming zombies...flaming zombies that removing their firey head and throws it at people!

Quietus
2007-03-01, 06:33 AM
Well, my DMs would let me alter the cold damage to fire, and I can fluff anything however I like, so I can get flaming zombies if I want to... though I don't think I could remove their heads and throw them, while keeping them still alive... dead.... undead... animated, that's it!

Noneoyabizzness
2007-03-01, 10:19 AM
The reason I'd prefer undead to living is that I have many resources that will power up a legion of undead and not many that will do the same for the living. If I were to take the corpsecrafter tree, I'd have to segment my army into a group of humans and a group of undead because the undead death would destroy the living, and that's just a waste. Instead of trying to justify it as having free refills, why not just reanimate the corpse if it hasnt been too badly mangled, or simply reanimate my dead enemies? This way my two sources of troops synergize well with eachother as well as my own powers instead of working seperately or even against eachother.

bah first off, the living make better craftspeople as well good for non menacing diplomatic missions. loyalty of the living also allow for some aid against those who would be undead slaying things like radiant servants. plus frankly when you have a source of expendable fodder, and you don't use followers, your leadership score keeps up. (lord know those who have to hold up the largely expendible spear wall in the grand warfare always feel a bit of grudge, unintelligent undead make best for that while the smarter living people can take up siege weapons and second waves after the inital damage is done.)


and as stated, turn those who turn disloyal to a zombie. your ranks swell, law is upheld, and you get a slightly stronger goon to take a hit for the living who actually keep fealty.