[PF] Good creature to make into undead mount?

[Dalebert]

My gravewalker witch finally got animate dead and I've been eager to make a bloody skeleton mount. Since I'm a small-sized ratfolk, I'm thinking something medium-sized that has decent attacks like some sort of cat with a claw, claw, bite. That way it can accompany me into dungeons and remain useful.

Suggestions?

[FidgetySquirrel]

My gravewalker witch finally got animate dead and I've been eager to make a bloody skeleton mount. Since I'm a small-sized ratfolk, I'm thinking something medium-sized that has decent attacks like some sort of cat with a claw, claw, bite. That way it can accompany me into dungeons and remain useful.

Suggestions? Leopard, maybe? It wouldn't be very useful at higher levels, though. Still, it's the only medium cat with claw, claw, bite that I can think of in PF.

[Dalebert]

Thanks. That will probably be good for now. I should probably also look into a flying mount, though I already anticipate that upsetting my DM who's trying to ban any kind of overland flight that bypasses the adventure associated with travel. He's also banned any long-range teleport other than some specific site-to-site versions. Can skeletons of flying creatures still fly?

[FidgetySquirrel]

Speed: A winged skeleton can't use its wings to fly. If the base creature flew magically, so can the skeleton. All other movement types are retained. I think that pretty much sums it up.

[Dalebert]

A bloody skeleton beholder mount? Hmmm...

Also, just discovered the jaguar. It's faster and has climb and swim speeds. At first, I thought it would have better attacks, but I think those are due to feats which will be lost as a skeleton. :\

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/cat-great/jaguar-tohc

[Yanisa]

A bloody skeleton beholder mount? Hmmm...

Also, just discovered the jaguar. It's faster and has climb and swim speeds. At first, I thought it would have better attacks, but I think those are due to feats which will be lost as a skeleton. :\

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/cat-great/jaguar-tohc

It is also third party, if you care about that.

How limited are you in getting corpses? If you want a decent medium "cat", The Dweomercat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/dweomercat) has 10 HD, and all the goodies of a cat, 2 claws, 1 bite, rake, pounce (and the looks of a tiger). But getting a corpse might be hard.

Edit: if you want an undead flying mount, you probably need to think Zombie, Fast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/zombie/zombie-fast). :smalltongue:

[Lonely Tylenol]

Zombie dire bats are a great starter mount.

If you want a skeletal mount that flies, it basically has to be a skeletal dragon (if I recall, the revised version in, if I recall, Draconomicon, retains its ability to fly).

[FabulousFizban]

fast zombie dragon

[Dalebert]

It is also third party, if you care about that.

My GM probably will, unfortunately. I hadn't noticed that.



How limited are you in getting corpses? If you want a decent medium "cat", The Dweomercat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/dweomercat) has 10 HD, and all the goodies of a cat, 2 claws, 1 bite, rake, pounce (and the looks of a tiger). But getting a corpse might be hard.


At 5th level, I imagine it would be fairly hard. I'll keep it mind though. Maybe later. FWIW, I'm not dead set on a cat for stylistic purposes, although it is kind of cool. I'm just thinking of something medium-sized for riding that would also have decent attacks.

Honestly, my next question was going to be about tips for finding a creature in a reasonable time-frame. An additional problem I face is that there are two catfolk in my party (yes, two catfolk and a ratfolk. It is mildly amusing) and one has said she will not tolerate me hunting down a cat to kill and use as a mount. It hasn't come up in game so this is player to player. But essentially, I can't count on help form the party unless I can somehow discreetly manipulate things so we cross paths and then somehow trigger an attack. I may need to just put a bounty out for one.

[Yanisa]

My GM probably will, unfortunately. I hadn't noticed that.
The Tomb of Horrors series has a lot of beasties, so keep an eye out for those. The Monster DB (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/tools/monster-filter) (warning, long load time, but it is a good resource to find creatures) list about 900+ monsters (out of 3000) with Tomb of Horrors as a source.


At 5th level, I imagine it would be fairly hard. I'll keep it mind though. Maybe later. FWIW, I'm not dead set on a cat for stylistic purposes, although it is kind of cool. I'm just thinking of something medium-sized for riding that would also have decent attacks.

Honestly, my next question was going to be about tips for finding a creature in a reasonable time-frame. An additional problem I face is that there are two catfolk in my party (yes, two catfolk and a ratfolk. It is mildly amusing) and one has said she will not tolerate me hunting down a cat to kill and use as a mount. It hasn't come up in game so this is player to player. But essentially, I can't count on help form the party unless I can somehow discreetly manipulate things so we cross paths and then somehow trigger an attack. I may need to just put a bounty out for one.

How to get a corpse kinda depends on what your DM allows. Bounties sound like a good idea if that works, in some darker campaigns there is also trade in corpses (especially when necromancy is commonplace and accepted), and general hunting is most likely the easiest one (besides collecting the corpses of your slain foes, but those aren't always the ones you want). Later you do calling shenanigans for undead outsiders, if your DM allows that.

As for non cat options this guide (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjRWFhSWc1ZzAzaDg) has a page of rankings for the monster of the first bestiary (second last page.), so you can see if something else fits your bill. Couldn't find anything for the other bestiaries though. (Wolverines fit that many attacks you want, also a 2 claw and bite creature, medium, and not catlike at all.)

[Dalebert]

(Wolverines fit that many attacks you want, also a 2 claw and bite creature, medium, and not catlike at all.)

OMG! A wolverine (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/wolverine) mount? That's way cooler! I would put it in blue and yellow armor.


Special Qualities: A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks.

Schweet!


Rage (Ex)
A wolverine that takes damage in combat flies into a rage on its next turn, clawing and biting madly until either it or its opponent is dead. It gains +4 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, and –2 to AC. The creature cannot end its rage voluntarily.

[Psyren]

As a rat I would be leery about riding a cat, even an undead one :smalltongue: Dire Wolverine is a nice idea though.

I might ride a wolf for the trip.


OMG! A wolverine (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/wolverine) mount? That's way cooler! I would put it in blue and yellow armor.



Schweet!

Isn't there a rule about not being able to rage if you have no con score? I vaguely remember something like that.

[Yanisa]

Isn't there a rule about not being able to rage if you have no con score? I vaguely remember something like that.

Well normal rage (And the spell rage) give moral bonuses, to which undead are immune. Wolverine avoids this issue by not specifying that its rage give moral bonuses. I couldn't find a specif rule dealing with constitution and rage though (but one would assume the wolverine rage is also morally based).

Also one could argue that since the Wolverine is undead, his rage instantly ends when he rages. The description says he rages until he (or his opponent) is dead. :smalltongue:

[FidgetySquirrel]

Also one could argue that since the Wolverine is undead, his rage instantly ends when he rages. The description says he rages until he (or his opponent) is dead. :smalltongue:But how do you dead that which is... undeadable?

[Dalebert]

The description says he rages until he (or his opponent) is dead. :smalltongue:

Okay, well maybe he will look very, very scary for just a brief moment. :smallbiggrin:


Dire Wolverine is a nice idea though.

I'd go with the regular wolverine. He'd be a mount first and foremost and since I'm small, I only need a medium-sized creature. That's a little more practical and easier to bring along inside dungeons and such.

But that just made me consider something. Since it's a mount, I'd probably want something faster. A wolverine only has a 30ft move versus a horse which has a 50ft move. So now I'm thinking maybe a black bear (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/bear/black-bear), though it clearly lacks the cool factor of a wolverine or a cat.

[deuxhero]

Remember that PF undead keep SLAs (and natural spellcasting, but hitting the stats minimums takes effort) and fast healing (and regeneration if it weren't for the lack of a con score) due to changes in the monster rules.

I've always liked skeleton Nightmares as mounts (their flying is clearly magical and you can see a rib cage in their 3.5 art so they clearly had a skeleton) but that's bigger than you want.

[Yanisa]

Remember that PF undead keep SLAs (and natural spellcasting, but hitting the stats minimums takes effort) and fast healing (and regeneration if it weren't for the lack of a con score) due to changes in the monster rules.

In the case of Animate Dead, I do suspect this is irrelevant. Skeletons and Zombies tend to loose most special abilities and class levels (magical fly and extraordinary abilities that help with attacking are exceptions.). The few variants allowed with Animate Dead seems to work with the seem basic rules. Unless there is something I am overlooking?

[deuxhero]

Nope, specifically meant skeleton/zombies

In 3.5 Fast Healing was a special quality, while Spell-Like abilities were special attacks, both of which get axed by the skeleton/zombie template
In PF Fast Healing is a property of HP/hit die that isn't effected by the template and SLAs are their own section which the template also doesn't touch.

[Kudaku]

The fighter. He'd also really, really benefit from the undead immunities.

[Dalebert]

The fighter. He'd also really, really benefit from the undead immunities.

I feel like I'm missing some context. What is this in response to?

At the risk of getting mildly off topic, does anyone know of small or smaller creatures that fly by magic? What do you think of relatively portable burning skeletons that can fly? Would they be able to start fires? Intuitively, it seems so, but I seem to recall Curmudgeon or Psyren or someone constantly reminding us that something does only exactly what it says it does so maybe not.


Creatures adjacent to a burning skeleton take 1d6 points of fire damage at the start of their turn. Anyone striking a burning skeleton with an unarmed strike or natural attack takes 1d6 points of fire damage.

It specifically mentions creatures and not objects. I guess it's a weird magical fire. Even so, it would be nice to have small flying things that I could have hover just above enemies doing constant damage. I'm sure there are times when I'd be grateful they don't start forest fires or something.

[Kudaku]

I feel like I'm missing some context. What is this in response to?

Apparently a failed attempt at humor, I was suggesting that you kill, reanimate and ride the party's fighter. You'd get a potentially excellent mount, he'd get a significant boost in the form of the Undead immunities. :smalltongue:

[Dalebert]

Apparently a failed attempt at humor, I was suggesting that you kill, reanimate and ride the party's fighter. You'd get a potentially excellent mount, he'd get a significant boost in the form of the Undead immunities. :smalltongue:

Ah. Well, FWIW, I do have another "mount" planned that would be bipedal and medium sized for dungeons. I need to strap a sort of basket to it's back that I can ride in for when I'm using Possess Undead and my body is lifeless. I might even possess the undead that is carrying my body sometimes. I'm thinking some sort of tough biped as a bloody skeleton.

[Yanisa]

Nope, specifically meant skeleton/zombies

In 3.5 Fast Healing was a special quality, while Spell-Like abilities were special attacks, both of which get axed by the skeleton/zombie template
In PF Fast Healing is a property of HP/hit die that isn't effected by the template and SLAs are their own section which the template also doesn't touch.

I am pretty sure it shouldn't work like that and it seems more related to formatting then to actually rules. But I guess you are right. Also fast healing can be listed under Special Abilities (not always), it is not just a part of hit points, but it's Special Qualities that an undead looses.By that same logic an undead also doesn't loose weaknesses of the base creature, and some special abilities might slip under the rader (although most of those are already a part of an attack), most notable aura's are kept.
Here is a odd one I found, A Blue Dragon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/chromatic-blue/adult-blue-dragon) keeps its Sound Imitation ability as an undead... without vocal cords... and it's an extraordinary ability.... Although I mainly wanted to link it for its aura's and the fact it would keep those too.

[Dalebert]

Here is a odd one I found, A Blue Dragon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/chromatic-blue/adult-blue-dragon) keeps its Sound Imitation ability as an undead... without vocal cords... and it's an extraordinary ability.... Although I mainly wanted to link it for its aura's and the fact it would keep those too.

I started a thread a while back to discuss whether a skeleton could speak if it wasn't mindless. In fact, they might vocalize in primitive ways already, screaming while attacking or making growling noises. Movie skeletons sometimes even have facial expressions. Makes them scarier. That's basically a flavor thing that a DM might or might not actually bother to describe depending on how much he gets into such details. You might ask "When is a skeleton not mindless?" and one case I know of is when it's possessed by a gravewalker. Think about it. And it's not far-fetched at all. How do they move without muscles? Magic. Magic is filling in for most of the things a living thing did using muscles, organs, brains, vocal cords, etc. It's a relevant question because I want to know if I can cast spells from the body of a skeleton.

[Yanisa]

I started a thread a while back to discuss whether a skeleton could speak if it wasn't mindless. In fact, they might vocalize in primitive ways already, screaming while attacking or making growling noises. Movie skeletons sometimes even have facial expressions. Makes them scarier. That's basically a flavor thing that a DM might or might not actually bother to describe depending on how much he gets into such details. You might ask "When is a skeleton not mindless?" and one case I know of is when it's possessed by a gravewalker. Think about it. And it's not far-fetched at all. How do they move without muscles? Magic. Magic is filling in for most of the things a living thing did using muscles, organs, brains, vocal cords, etc. It's a relevant question because I want to know if I can cast spells from the body of a skeleton.

Your issues besides, the ability is an extraordinary ability (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Extraordinary-Abilities-Ex-), meaning it is non magical in nature. It can break physics, so I guess when can chuck it up to that. It still sounds odd to me, not being magic and seemingly part of the creatures biology, yet being able to transfer into its skeletal corpse. Then again we shouldn't think to hard about it. (Real life logic doesn't always fit in DnD, especially when i am complaining about undead dragons. :smalltongue:)




As for undead in general

Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.
Not sure what we should think with spiritual, but supernatural is a clear indication that undeads function on magic (Negative Energy to be precise). I guess Spiritual is for the incorporeal undead (And judging from various other things named Spiritual (http://www.google.com/cse?cx=006680642033474972217%3A6zo0hx_wle8&q=spiritual#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=spiritual&gsc.page=1), it is force magic, and thus also a form of magic).

And the intelligence rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Intelligence-Int-) detail when you can talk and they don't make exceptions for the undead. Talking is all based on the intelligence.

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects their spellcasting ability in many ways. Creatures of animal-level instinct have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2. Any creature capable of understanding speech has a score of at least 3. A character with an Intelligence score of 0 is comatose. Some creatures do not possess an Intelligence score. Their modifier is +0 for any Intelligence-based skills or checks.

You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to:

The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.

[...]
And when magical beast can talk, golems can talk, and intelligent undead can talk; why cant a skeleton talk if it posses the right intelligence? It's all based on magic rather then biology.

Also an odd feeling of Deja Vu...

[deuxhero]

I am pretty sure it shouldn't work like that and it seems more related to formatting then to actually rules. But I guess you are right. Also fast healing can be listed under Special Abilities (not always), it is not just a part of hit points, but it's Special Qualities that an undead looses.


Not just a mere formatting oddity, PF actually has this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules) stating what everything falls under.

[Yanisa]

Not just a mere formatting oddity, PF actually has this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules) stating what everything falls under.

But that is precisely my point. Pathfinder changed the formatting of the monster stat blocks, but the skeleton template is still written in the 3.5 rule style. I don't think it was a deliberate choice to allow undead keep their fast healing, spell like abilities, spells, weakness, auras and some random special abilities. Thus it must be a result of the new formatting, rather then rule changes. Unless I am wrong and it was a deliberate choice.