Oh the ways to shatter time

[TeslaJr]

So what I'm looking for is any type of temporal shenanigans. What I'm mainly looking for is stuff that specifically messes with time, but anything that breaks the action economy is good. Off the top of my head:

Psionics

Linked Power Synchronicity
Hustle
Temporal Reiteration
Temporal Acceleration
Schism
Fission
Anticipatory Strike
Deceleration
(Mass)Time Hop
Quintessence
Moment of Prescience
Quicken
Timeless Body
Time Regression
Save-game Trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8142448&postcount=2)


Arcane:

(Lesser)(Greater) Celerity
(Greater) Arcane Fusion
Time Stop
Wish //You can argue that this can mess with time/action economy
Shapechange into a Chronotyryn
Quicken
Teleport Through Time
Epic Spells
Foresight
Slow
Moment of Prescience
Genesis when messing with the time traits
Accelerate Movement
Expeditious Retreat
Herald's Call
Nerveskitter
Skilled Moment
Snake's Swiftness
Haste
Temporal Jolt
Time Shield
Touch of Years
Permanency
Contingent
Temporal Repair
Eyes of the Oracle
Aging Touch
Temporal Stasis
Hindsight
Kissed by the Ages


Divine:

Permanency
Planar Bubble
Planar Shepard
Miracle //Same as wish
Time Domain
Eyes of the Oracle
Snake's Swiftness
Flicker
Choose Destiny
Shadow Time


Other

Factotum Cunning Surge ability
White Raven Tactics
Anima Mage Capstone


That's really all I can think of, though I'm sure I'm missing some. Now these are fairly simple, but I do want any of your weird/crazy/convoluted wibbly wobbly, timey wimey...stuff.

[Gildedragon]

Missing the big one:

Teleport Through Time: Sor/Wiz 9


Create Time Portal [Epic]

[TeslaJr]

Ah, thanks! The epic one was so obvious I didn't even consider it.

[IslandDog]

Factotums cunning surge ability?

[TeslaJr]

Factotums cunning surge ability?

Yep, that'll do it.

[TeslaJr]

I guess Foresight and Moment of Prescience work too.

[Vorandril]

Now the trick becomes: Finding how to make a character who can use as many of these as inborn power as possible.

[Phelix-Mu]

I am sure that there is some application of the epically open-ended Lucid Dreaming that can break action economy pretty badly. Way open to DM interpretation, but its proponents suggest some pretty crazy uses.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?166492-The-Chronomancer-s-Day-Scheduler-%28Time-Magic%29

[gooddragon1]

White Raven Tactics? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BAHp1cWoHo)

[With a box]

psionic genesis can't screw up time:



You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane.

[TeslaJr]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?166492-The-Chronomancer-s-Day-Scheduler-%28Time-Magic%29
That is a great resource, thanks!


White Raven Tactics? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BAHp1cWoHo)
Ha, nice!


psionic genesis can't screw up time:
Really? Shame. I'll move it over to the Arcane list.

[Phelix-Mu]

There is ample vagueness in both genesis versions for a DM to prohibit time traits being altered. In fact, I thought psionic was the more restrictive of the two.

[TeslaJr]

There is ample vagueness in both genesis versions for a DM to prohibit time traits being altered. In fact, I thought psionic was the more restrictive of the two.

After looking it up, the Psionics one straight up says you can't manipulate time, and I agree that the arcane Genesis is vague enough to dis/allow.

[Phelix-Mu]

I usually allow gravity traits to be altered, since they are certainly more in keeping with the visible traits that the spell/power intends to give control over. That right there is plenty of fun. Giving a player a fast-time demiplane would be a lot like just handing them the keys to the campaign. Not that that can't work, but it probably isn't going to mesh well with any established plot.

[Quantumphear]

Capstone for Anima Mage gives you an effective celerity without the daze. Use it to cast celerity, then time stop for bonus points.

[Phelix-Mu]

*goes back in time to revive this awesome thread*

[With a box]

It might need an index tag.

[TeslaJr]

It might need an index tag.

That might help. Done.

[elonin]

I'm curious how moment of prescience fits on the list. It's a great spell but doesn't help action economy by itself.

[TeslaJr]

I'm curious how moment of prescience fits on the list. It's a great spell but doesn't help action economy by itself.

Well, you can fluff it so that it's looking into the future to get the bonuses, and this thread was started to list things related to time manipulation, but anything that messes with the action economy is fine (because stuffing hundreds of actions into six seconds is basically time shenanigans).

[elonin]

That's fine. I just had a different conception of the topic of this thread. Thanks.

[TeslaJr]

Oh, yeah, no problem. I need to format this better and start a new thread. What do you guys think about an Action Economy Handbook?

[eggynack]

You're missing a bit of wild shape stuff. The most obvious is dire tortoise form from sandstorm, which allows you to always act in the surprise round, and then there's the big one, aberration wild shape for nilshai form from unapproachable east, combined with enhance wild shape for an extra standard action every round. You also need the belt of battle on there somewhere, because it's the best.

[elonin]

I would like that handbook.

[Vaz]

Really? Shame. I'll move it over to the Arcane list.

Neither can normal genesis. Time Traits are not something included in Genesis' list of options.

[eggynack]

Neither can normal genesis. Time Traits are not something included in Genesis' list of options.
The list in genesis is not an exclusive one, and restrictions are given that don't include time traits. By contrast, psionic genesis explicitly limits you away from time trait alteration.

[Vaz]

It doesn't say Fighters can't shoot lasers out of your eyeballs either.

[ChaosArchon]

It doesn't say Fighters can't shoot lasers out of your eyeballs either.
I mean I thought that was a class feature all Fighters used

[eggynack]

It doesn't say Fighters can't shoot lasers out of your eyeballs either.
The fighter class also doesn't say that you can shoot just about anything from your eyeballs that you can visualize. If it did, then you would presumably be allowed to shoot lasers, though they would likely need to be game objects first. As is, genesis does in fact grant permission to alter your plane in a fashion that reflects most any desire the caster can visualize, and time is one of those things, especially because it's an established planar trait. After that rule is in place, the rules actually do have to say that you can't, because by establishing that you can adjust things as you wish, you are being given permission to adjust things in this particular fashion if you wish to. Time traits are a subset of the allowances given to you in planar construction.

[Vaz]

Instead of looking at misleading high-OP "tricks", lets just look at what it can do.


The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain.

Emphasis mine.

Atmosphere.
Water.
Temperature.
General Shape of the Terrain.
And such.

The environment does not influence time.

This is what it cannot do.


This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). The spellcaster must add these things in some other fashion if he or she desires.
This is what it explicitly cannot make. This is not an exclusive list. It cannot create Constructs or undead, either, for example.

[eggynack]

Instead of looking at misleading high-OP "tricks", lets just look at what it can do.



Emphasis mine.

Atmosphere.
Water.
Temperature.
General Shape of the Terrain.
And such.

The environment does not influence time.
That is, as is shown bolded below:

The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain.
not an exclusive list. As for whether the term "environment" includes time, it seems to fit every definition of environment that's relevant here, whether it be, "The aggregate of surrounding things, conditions, or influences," or, "The air, water, minerals, organisms, and all other external factors surrounding and affecting a given organism at any time." Thus, as the caster determines the environment, and the environment includes time, the caster can determine time.



This is what it explicitly cannot make. This is not an exclusive list. It cannot create Constructs or undead, either, for example.
Once the game says you influence the environment, the list of restrictions from that point forward is necessarily exclusive with regards to controlling the extent of that influence. That's just how the game works. If you're given an ability, then you can do anything that ability says, until something tells you different.

[Vaz]

Let's just agree to disagree. Time is independent of environment, by all definitions that I can find - correlation is different from causation, after all. All I can suggest is that by what is written down, Genesis does not explicitly change time.

[eggynack]

If you can prove that time is included within the environment, then I'll agree. Until then, as time is not related whatsoever to the environment, it cannot, by RAW, be included by Genesis. Especially as you cannot visualize time. You can make a timeline, but you cannot actually visualize time itself.
My argument by definition seems more than sufficient to prove that time is included within environment. As for visualization, you consider things moving at either a greater or lesser speed, relative to your own, and you have a reasonably accurate visual model, if not one that is perfectly so.

[Vaz]

Changed my post. We're not going to agree. What genesis states is that you can make changes to your plane such as those which modify the landscape.

I believe that time is independent of the landscape, as in, the change to the landscape does not make the passage of time any different, and so cannot be affected by genesis.

You believe the opposite.

[With a box]

you can visualize time itself. all you have to do is spin the axis of the universe.

off-topic: can I make a demiplane made of high-grade muffin?

[eggynack]

Changed my post. We're not going to agree. What genesis states is that you can make changes to your plane such as those which modify the landscape.

I believe that time is independent of the landscape, as in, the change to the landscape does not make the passage of time any different, and so cannot be affected by genesis.

You believe the opposite.
It's not really a matter of belief, and the spell does not say landscape. The spell says environment. You've said that time is independent of environment by definition. Well, what definition is that? Every definition I can find for the term appears very much inclusive of time. If you can find a definition that supports your claim, then it's entirely possible that we're in a semantic deadlock, wherein it is unclear what definition the authors were using, leaving it ambiguous. As is, without the existence of such a contrary definition, I can only conclude that I am correct.

[Vaz]

You were the one who said that things "such as Atmosphere, Water, Temperature and General Shape of the Terrain" included time, so no, you prove to me that Time is similar enough to all of those.

And stating you're correct doesn't actually make you any more correct. And while many despise wikipedia, for the purposes of what we're looking for, it's more than adequate. I looked through the pages linked to from this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment) page, I couldn't find any mentions of time being a part of the environment. The only comment regarding time was that changes happen over the passage of time, such as the building of things, or the erosion of others.

A timeless environment is still subject to erosion, for example. Building a sandcastle on a beach on your demiplane that is timeless, and throwing a bucket of water over it will still destroy the sandcastle. Taking a pickaxe to a rock on your timeless demiplane is going to break it. Taking a whetstone to a sword on a demiplane is still going to sharpen it. All are cases of erosion, and will happen regardless of time. Time is independent of any of that. It happens regardless. Otherwise you wouldn't even be able to move if things were "timeless". Take said whetstone, and store it in a vacuum, where the only thing that can have any potential effect on it is time. It will not ever change whatsoever. it is this which makes time independent of environment, and thus, not changeable by Genesis.

Saying that watching a cheetah move a greater distance over the same period of time is not a model of time. If there was no time, the cheetah would not have any speed value whatsoever - there's no time, and speed is distance/time, divided by n/a. If it was 10:1 time, the cheetah is still able to move further in the given time frame than what you are able to do.


the surroundings or conditions in which a person, animal, or plant lives or operates.
Where does it state or support "time" is anywhere relevant to that?

[TeslaJr]

You're missing a bit of wild shape stuff. The most obvious is dire tortoise form from sandstorm, which allows you to always act in the surprise round, and then there's the big one, aberration wild shape for nilshai form from unapproachable east, combined with enhance wild shape for an extra standard action every round. You also need the belt of battle on there somewhere, because it's the best.

Most of what's up there comes from personal knowledge, and I've never really messed with Druids before.


I would like that handbook.

It might take me a bit; I'm pretty busy at work right now. Just keep sending me ways to mess with the action economy.

[eggynack]

You were the one who said that things "such as Atmosphere, Water, Temperature and General Shape of the Terrain" included time, so no, you prove to me that Time is similar enough to all of those.
I need to do no such thing, and I said no such thing. The spell says it lets you determine the environment, and I need only prove that time is part of the environment. There is no requirement to prove anything akin to similarity.


And stating you're correct doesn't actually make you any more correct. And while many despise wikipedia, for the purposes of what we're looking for, it's more than adequate. I looked through the pages linked to from this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment) page, I couldn't find any mentions of time being a part of the environment. The only comment regarding time was that changes happen over the passage of time, such as the building of things, or the erosion of others.
Me stating that I'm correct doesn't make me correct, but when I have a well constructed and supported point, and you do nothing to discredit it, that does make me correct, at least until the point is discredited, or until you're capable of finding victory with a different logical line. As for your claim here, it doesn't really matter whether the wikipedia page mentions time. All that matters is the actual definition of the word, especially because you laid claim to such a definition in past arguments. The definition of environment does, in fact, include time. Really, the only reason the wikipedia page does not mention time is because that is not an environmental factor that can be altered in our reality, at least practically.


A timeless environment is still subject to erosion, for example. Building a sandcastle on a beach on your demiplane that is timeless, and throwing a bucket of water over it will still destroy the sandcastle. Taking a pickaxe to a rock on your timeless demiplane is going to break it. Taking a whetstone to a sword on a demiplane is still going to sharpen it. All are cases of erosion, and will happen regardless of time. Time is independent of any of that. It happens regardless. Otherwise you wouldn't even be able to move if things were "timeless". Take said whetstone, and store it in a vacuum, where the only thing that can have any potential effect on it is time. It will not ever change whatsoever. it is this which makes time independent of environment, and thus, not changeable by Genesis.
I thought we were making this time plane fast, rather than timeless, but even if we're talking about a timeless plane, time is still very much a part of the environment. You see, things in the timeless plane aren't happening infinitely slowly. They're happening infinitely quickly, relative to the goings on on a normal plane. Thus, changeable.


Saying that watching a cheetah move a greater distance over the same period of time is not a model of time. If there was no time, the cheetah would not have any speed value whatsoever - there's no time, and speed is distance/time, divided by n/a. If it was 10:1 time, the cheetah is still able to move further in the given time frame than what you are able to do.
The units of time here are being based on the planes in question. You have a cheetah start running on the prime material plane, and at the same time, you have a cheetah start running on the genesis plane. One of those two cheetahs is going to move further than the other over any stretch of time in the prime material. That difference is what you visualize.


Where does it state or support "time" is anywhere relevant to that?
Oh, that one's easy. Environment can be defined as an aggregate of surrounding conditions. Time is among those surrounding conditions. Note also that time can be considered a surrounding factor relative to an organism, and it doesn't even necessarily have to affect that organism in order to fit the second definition.

[Vaz]

I'll cut this short. You seem intent on having the last word. Like i said earlier, agree to disagree.

There is no mention anywhere of time within the effects of environment, nor is there mention of it in genesis.

Hence, according to you, it is an available option to modify via genesis?

Gotcha. Sorry for asking you to back up your statement that time is something that can be modified via genesis.

[eggynack]

There is no mention anywhere of time within the effects of environment, nor is there mention of it in genesis.
Time isn't mentioned in the definition of environment, but it fits the definition, and that's enough. It's just how words work.


Hence, according to you, it is an available option to modify via genesis?

Because it falls under the definition of the thing you can determine? Yes.

[Vaz]

If all x's are y's, and all y's are z's, then all z's are x's is what you are saying.

Genesis doesn't say you can. So you can't.

That is how permissive rulesystems work. Stop the condescension. It isn't welcome.

[eggynack]

If all x's are y's, and all y's are z's, then all z's are x's is what you are saying.
No, I'm doing it the other way that does not invite fallacy. All environments contain time as a factor, even if that time might usually remain constant. Genesis lets you determine environment completely. Thus, as time is a subset of what you can determine, you can determine it.


Genesis doesn't say you can. So you can't.
Yes, it does. "The spellcaster determines the environment." As there's no in-game definition, we are inextricably drawn to the standard English definition, and you've yet to disprove that the definition of environment includes time.

[Vaz]

Conversely, you've got to prove it does. The posit is that it does affect time. I say it doesn't. I've not yet found a quote which suggests that environment includes time, simply the correlation that time passes by as effects happen, and as I'm sure you're aware, correlation is not causation, which is integral to what an environment is.

It feels like I'm trying to explain to someone who thinks unicorns are real that they're not - at which point they reply "prove they don't". It's impossible to prove they don't exist, but that doesn't mean they do either.

Same applies here.

[eggynack]

Conversely, you've got to prove it does. The posit is that it does affect time. I say it doesn't. I've not yet found a quote which suggests that environment includes time, simply the correlation that time passes by as effects happen, and as I'm sure you're aware, correlation is not causation, which is integral to what an environment is.
The definition of environment suggests that environment includes time. It seems to be right there in black and white, and you've done nothing to refute a single one of those definitions. I found the quote for you, and referenced it a number of times. There's nothing in any of these claims that has anything to do with correlation, causation, or the relationship between the two, so I don't even know what that was referring to.


It feels like I'm trying to explain to someone who thinks unicorns are real that they're not - at which point they reply "prove they don't". It's impossible to prove they don't exist, but that doesn't mean they do either.
And to me, it feels like I keep saying, "Hey, look over there. It's a unicorn," and you just keep looking off in the opposite direction, saying, "I can't see it." It's very much possible to prove that what I'm saying is true, and I've already done so. The onus is currently on you to disprove my argument, if it is your goal to prove yourself right.

[Vaz]

"The aggregate of surrounding things, conditions, or influences,"

The passage of time is what, of these, exactly?

"The air, water, minerals, organisms, and all other external factors surrounding and affecting a given organism at any time."

Please don't make me point out the obvious here. Time cannot be a factor of the environment if it's "at any time".

[eggynack]

"The aggregate of surrounding things, conditions, or influences,"

The passage of time is what, of these, exactly?
Either an influence or a condition. In particular, it allows you to act, for without time, you wouldn't be able to do so. Moreover, it influences everything by causing it to act however it otherwise would, at a greater or lesser speed relative to a plane with a different time trait.


"The air, water, minerals, organisms, and all other external factors surrounding and affecting a given organism at any time."

Please don't make me point out the obvious here. Time cannot be a factor of the environment if it's "at any time".
Time is a factor at any time. In fact, it's a factor at every time. It's always surrounding you and/or affecting you, depending on how you look at it. You can't really consider that term to be from the perspective of an individual point in time, because if we're just taking a snapshot in time, and holding everything still forever, then nothing affects anything. Doesn't matter how much or little air there is, because there's no future to depend on that factor. The surrounding version is even easier to prove, as time is obviously going to surround you at a given time.

[TeslaJr]

Ok guys, you're starting to derail the thread. Could you please start a new one?

[Elderand]

I gather that there can be no final say in whether or not (Su) cost xp... I would assume that it doesnt, because that would lead to de-leveling the Zodar, which I find to be not happening. I totally see the problem with allowing this and where could eventually lead. Why stop at a +5 tome why not go the ring of "+20 to all rolls" or why stop there. Why not have the ring of all at will. What I do know is that there are more, albeit, gamebreaking tricks out there, and in an epic game it might not un-hindge that much...

Anyways I find it reasonably clear that when transforming into a Zodar you get a wish... every time. I have read and re-read shapechange and its the only conclusion I can come to. Whether or not it would cost xp are unclear though. And even more unclear is whether or not it should be allowed... I am personal undre the impression that it is well within the rules and like so many other things about spells it can be abused.

Taking this further.... Could one not simply gate in a Zodar and command it to wish you up the items you want??? I know that Gjins migh want to screw you over, but when you directly command the Zodar that part of the wish spell/ability would not be there.. would it? It would seem that that would be a risk free wish granting pretty much any item you can think of... Is this assumption correct?

You seem to be in the wrong thread my good sir.

[Jormengand]

Back on topic, the truenamer brings Quickened temporal spiral and Quickened temporal twist, allowing you to grant anyone in range (self included) a free move or free attack for one of your swifts. Unfortunately, if you can cast quickened utterances, you probably had something better to be doing with that swift action.