PF lack of LA

[questionmark693]

So my brother just explained to em the barebones of pathfinder's rp system for higher powered races. Do you seriously not have a drawback for playing a better race in pathfinder?

[torrasque666]

Well when using a significantly more powerful race you can bump up the party's ECL a bit, sometimes oking a encounter that would normally kill the party, while normally they might have a chance at success.

[malonkey1]

I believe one rule (not sure if houserule) is that you can use a monster with INT 3+ as a race, using the monster's CR as your ECL, with each class level adding to ECL as normal.

[Yanisa]

Well the old rules had some form of LA, but that all tossed aside with the Advanced Race Guide rules. There are some guidelines for DM to keep the power of the party in check, and some hints that extremely unbalanced creature should take some sort of penalties. But yeah, thats all for the DM to deal with. If the DM allows it and doesn't stop it then you as a player have no drawbacks.

[questionmark693]

I'm not talking about monsters. I'm talking about like Aasimar are 15 rp. Bu that holds no water, because the player just gets a sweet race, no penalty whatsoever....that doesn't feel bad to you?

[Yanisa]

Aasimars, and Tieflings, are Pathfinder Society legal (that is the paizo run world wide campaign)... And they are a bit stronger and a bit more flexible then most races, in my PFS experiences most people played one, which made them very boring.

But yeah, there is no LA, no penalties, no rules, no hints. Only the DM can stop it. :smalltongue:

In the end it depends on your party whether it is bad or not. The difference in power isn't really game breaking.

[Psyren]

All the races are more powerful so bringing Aasimar back down to LA 0 didn't really affect anything. They are strong but still no match for humans in many builds, and even Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are rocking some serious power now.

[facelessminion]

I'm not talking about monsters. I'm talking about like Aasimar are 15 rp. Bu that holds no water, because the player just gets a sweet race, no penalty whatsoever....that doesn't feel bad to you?

Considering that the other races hold up fantastically, it doesn't feel bad in the slightest!

When you said powerful races, I thought you meant something actually powerful.

[Vhaidara]

I forget where I heard it, but I heard that <21 Race Points = 0 LA, and then every 10 points (31, 41, 51, etc) was effectively +1LA.

[Sayt]

Aasimar are net +4 stat, Tieflings are net +2, like most other LA +0 races in Pathfinder. They confer no additional hit dice, nor proficiency in anything. (Hit dice in the type, not the actual type, it seems, confer those in PF) They have a few skill bonuses and a SLA, which really isn't out of line with the rest of the Pathfinder races. They are not, all in all, worthy of any LA.

Centaur's? Maybe.

Drow Noble? Definitely

[Jigawatts]

Drow Noble? Definitely
The only way I'd play/allow a Drow Noble is if everyone in the party was playing a Drow Noble.

[questionmark693]

Ok, so maybe a bad example. Why isn't there a downside to playing a drow noble? That bothers me...did they ever explain that reasoning?

[Malroth]

ummm everybody everywhere will want you dead. that isn't a downside?

[questionmark693]

I guess....maybe I'm just being bothered by the fact that it's different from what I'm used to :P

[Sayt]

Well, by the ARGs guideleines, are three levels down at 1-5, two levels down at 6-10, and 1 down at 11-15, which, to be honest, doesn't seem unreasonable. That said, I would be leery of letting them in before 5th level or so.

[Yanisa]

Ok, so maybe a bad example. Why isn't there a downside to playing a drow noble? That bothers me...did they ever explain that reasoning?

There sort of is one (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2k1xu?Bestiary-Drow-vs-Noble-Drow#11).

a drow noble character would be 1 level lower than the rest of the group. Although, I should note that over time, this benefit might diminish to a point that is it no longer worth the +1 bump, but I think that should be left to GM discretion.
It comes back to the old rule of +CR = LA that pathfinder sorta has. But like I said since ARG that really is up to the DM more then anything.


Well, by the ARGs guideleines, are three levels down at 1-5, two levels down at 6-10, and 1 down at 11-15, which, to be honest, doesn't seem unreasonable. That said, I would be leery of letting them in before 5th level or so.

Got a source? I cant remember this one from the ARG. And it is way different then the old guideline.

[Sayt]

Got a source? I cant remember this one from the ARG. And it is way different then the old guideline.

The sidebox on 219 of the advanced race guide, and the Drow Noble RP breakdown on 242 of the same book.

At least thats my understanding of that sidebar.

[Yanisa]

The sidebox on 219 of the advanced race guide, and the Drow Noble RP breakdown on 242 of the same book.

At least thats my understanding of that sidebar.

Here's the digital version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/creating-new-races#sidebar-challenging-advanced-and-monstrous-races), for those who don't own books and call their friends at 10 AM in the morning. :smalltongue:

But that sidebar is for the whole group, not individuals, and how to build appropriate encounters. A group of only Drow Noble would have an APL of +3 higher when facing monsters, so the DM should offer higher challenges than their levels suggest. You can sort of translate these guidelines back to a single person, but I don't think a level 1 drow noble feels at place in a group of level 4 adventures. Even with all the extra abilities, it will die pretty easy (a common problem of LA).

Like I said, since the ARG, the adjustment are really in the court of the DM. You can still use the old rule, which means a Drow noble has "1 LA", which is probably better then allowing them in completely unpenalized, or you can give count hem as 3 levels higher as per the earlier linked table which is probably overkill. It still ain't a perfect system, and as levels grow some of those basic race ability do less and less for the player and starting with a load of LA means they might die really early. But there are no rules, just guidelines and a bit of advice.

[Alleran]

All the races are more powerful so bringing Aasimar back down to LA 0 didn't really affect anything. They are strong but still no match for humans in many builds, and even Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are rocking some serious power now.
As a note on half-elves, just today the half-elf Paragon Surge trick got hit pretty bad with two nerfs as stealth errata in the form of a FAQ. When picking the feat with the spell, once you've made the choice, you're locked in until the next day, at which point you can choose again. Additionally, it using the Improved Eldritch Heritage trick to get sorc/wiz spells on the oracle list, that no longer works. Some have posited the Emergency Attunement feat as a workaround for the former, but now that it's been mentioned it'll presumably be soon closed (one developer has already said that no, it won't work that way - they just haven't updated the FAQ yet).

So half-elves may be dropping in potency soon. At least for sorcerer/oracle builds. Paragon Surge is still not a terrible choice, but it's like saying a mansion is better than a one-bedroom apartment after you've been living in a palace.

[Psyren]

Honestly I wasn't even referring to Paragon Surge cheese. Half-Elves get a floating +2 and a bonus feat now too (sure, it's skill focus, but there are plenty of good feats that rely on that anyway), the +2 Perception is nearly as good as the extra skill point Humans get, and they tend to have great ARTs and FCBs, in addition to qualifying for the FCBs of both parents if those are better.