A Fighter Who Can Retrain Bonus Feats

[inertia709]

I was just thinking about what make wizards so much stronger than fighters, and one of the many things is that fighters are stuck with the feats that they choose, whereas wizards can change their "feats" (i.e. spells) daily. So what do you think of a fighter who can change bonus feat choices daily? Or how about one who can change all fighter feats (even if they weren't selected as bonus feats) daily? Note that this ability be given at (say) level 3 or 5 to avoid fighter dipping cheese. I'm NOT suggesting that this would significantly narrow the gap between fighter and wizard, but merely give them some versatility, in the same way that wizards are more versatile than sorcerers.

Edit: Alternatively, what about a fighter that could retrain feats as a full round action? That way a tripper could change into an uber charger when fighting a beholder, for instance.

[Abemad]

Well, floating fighter bonus feats would prob. push the fighter up to tier 4 (same as dungeoncrasher), but it still isn't tier 3, even with dungeoncrasher, considering what feats are available for swapping...
All in all seems like an easy and rational fix.

[Twilightwyrm]

As many here might tell you, feats are not equivalent to spells in terms of power or versatility. So just giving the fighter this is a start, but not nearly enough.
Now, if you also give them full Initiator Level (IL) and the ability to take Martial Study more than three times, then we have something. With these additional changes, the fighter basically has cleric-like access to all martial maneuvers, putting him (I would say anyways) easily in Tier 3 in terms of power and versatility.

[Giddonihah]

If you broadened the Fighter bonus feat list to be more general you could conceivably go tier 3 even with half IL.

I wonder if you made the bonus feats 'Any" and allowed feat switching quickly that you could claim tier 1.. hmmm :smallamused:
You would basically be a pseudo Incarnum, Binder, Spellcaster, Manuver dood, dps, Diplomancer, intimi Fun pack meal.

[mythmonster2]

I'm pretty sure the forum has determined before that even having the bonus feats be open to any feat would just make a Tier 3 class at best.

[Giddonihah]

But did it consider if you could retrain all feats as a Full action? Cause that adds a ton of flexibility.

[Larkas]

But did it consider if you could retrain all feats as a Full action? Cause that adds a ton of flexibility.

Flexibility isn't the mark of T1, it's the mark of T3. To qualify for T2/1, you have to be able to break the game.

[Giddonihah]

Flexibility isn't the mark of T1, it's the mark of T3. To qualify for T2/1, you have to be able to break the game.

You can get 9th lvl spells through feats as a Fighter :smalltongue:, if that isnt breaking the Game I dont know what is. And its more flexible than a Sorcerer, so tier 1 status :smallbiggrin:.

[Renen]

Fighter feats include feats that give 9th level spells? Really? Which ones?

Also, I do remember there being a Schrodinger's fighter discussion some time ago...

[sideswipe]

Fighter feats include feats that give 9th level spells? Really? Which ones?

Also, I do remember there being a Schrodinger's fighter discussion some time ago...

everyone was saying that if fighter feats were regular feats then you could get 9ths from it. not fighter feats themselves.

[VoxRationis]

I believe it would make the class more powerful, but I would feel sick to my stomach if I played it. If this guy can summon up the combat knowledge to do all these different things in different combats, why don't you just give him the feats for free? Why does this guy get to retroactively rearrange what he's learned and trained with all this time? The floating feat is one of the several reasons I hate Warblades (I know, heresy, yada yada).

[sideswipe]

I believe it would make the class more powerful, but I would feel sick to my stomach if I played it. If this guy can summon up the combat knowledge to do all these different things in different combats, why don't you just give him the feats for free? Why does this guy get to retroactively rearrange what he's learned and trained with all this time? The floating feat is one of the several reasons I hate Warblades (I know, heresy, yada yada).

well in the same breath how could a wizard cast a spell one day and not the next? same logic.

so a fighter knows how to do certain things in combat due to practice. if he spends some time practising with a different weapon he could apply what he learnt to the new weapon, so, for a fighters 3rd level gain this.

Aptitude - if the fighter has an int of 13 or more they know how to apply their weapons training to any style or weapon.
if they have had the weapon in their possession for 5-int mod (min 1) days and spend an hour each morning practising with the weapon they may use any feats that would be associated with a different weapon on any weapon that they practice with. you may practice with an amount of weapons equal to your int modifier each day and this still only takes one hour.
for example, if you have weapon focus (dagger) and weapon specialisation (dagger) with an int of 15 you may practise with a longsword and a shortbow.
you may apply the weapon focus feat and the weapon specialisation feat to all three weapons for that day.



if giving the fighter the ability to switch feats, on top give this.

5th level - long forgotten style - the fighter may at the beginning of each day meditate for 1 hour and switch his known feats for other feats. he may only select feats he has the prerequisites for or would gain after switching. this can only be performed once in a 24 hour period and the fighter must rest for 8 hours to be able to do it again. (though if you need less sleep naturally you only have to rest for the normal cycle, and creatures who do not sleep must rest for 4 hours).
the fighter may exchange any number of feats in this way up to his intelligence modifier.
when the fighter rests the feats return to the original ones selected. if the fighter does not rest in 48 hours the feats reset to the original ones.
the new feats must be able to be obtained the same way the original feat was obtained (example fighter feats for fighter feats).

7th level - feat aptitude - when meditating to exchange feats, a fighter may select to exchange any 2 feats he has gained from his fighter levels or from another source of feats with only a limited feat selection, for any one other feat of which he meats the prerequisites.
example - 2nd level fighter feat (weapon focus) and exalted feat from vow of poverty (nymphs kiss) both exchanged in meditation for martial study (sapphire nightmare blade). this costs 2 feats so it uses two of your long forgotten style slots.

PEACH please. i think this may help make fighter tier 4 solid like dungeon crasher. but it would take a lot to break and requires more MAD. but much more versatile. and stops dead levels on some part.

[137beth]

Daily rearrangement of feats is a start, but won't get you past low tier 4. Some homebrew fighter fixes use it as a start (e.g., this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?194834-3-5-Fighter-Remix-Doin-it-old-school)), but they all add a lot more class features as well.

Now, if you could swap feats on the fly, AND could swap all feats and not just bonus feats, AND could learn any feats as bonus feats and not just fighter feats, then you could get to tier three. You'd probably have to work harder to break into tier 1-2.

[VoxRationis]

well in the same breath how could a wizard cast a spell one day and not the next? same logic.

so a fighter knows how to do certain things in combat due to practice. if he spends some time practising with a different weapon he could apply what he learnt to the new weapon, so, for a fighters 3rd level gain this.


It's not the same logic at all!
Firstly, the wizard is using magic, which by virtue of not existing in the real world gets a certain carte blanche in terms of how it operates, so long as it does so consistently. Nonmagical training does not. And you can't just sit thinking to yourself "I want to be trained in X thing" instead for 15 minutes and have that wish granted.
Second, the wizard doesn't really intrinsically "know" the spell in the same way the fighter knows his feats. The wizard has to look up how to cast them every day, preparing them in his mind ahead of time and just finishing them off as the "casting" we see in combat situations. The spellcaster who knows all of their spells in a fashion roughly analogous to the fighter and his feats is called the sorcerer, whose abilities, except for those imposed by usage limitations, remain constant from day to day. Given that, these discrepancies make perfect sense.

[Renen]

It's not the same logic at all!
Firstly, the wizard is using magic, which by virtue of not existing in the real world gets a certain carte blanche in terms of how it operates, so long as it does so consistently. Nonmagical training does not. And you can't just sit thinking to yourself "I want to be trained in X thing" instead for 15 minutes and have that wish granted.
Second, the wizard doesn't really intrinsically "know" the spell in the same way the fighter knows his feats. The wizard has to look up how to cast them every day, preparing them in his mind ahead of time and just finishing them off as the "casting" we see in combat situations. The spellcaster who knows all of their spells in a fashion roughly analogous to the fighter and his feats is called the sorcerer, whose abilities, except for those imposed by usage limitations, remain constant from day to day. Given that, these discrepancies make perfect sense.

So... you are saying we have to be realistic when it comes to fighters. You know how much that screws them over? The reason ToB is T3, is because its not realistic, and people love it.

[FidgetySquirrel]

So... you are saying we have to be realistic when it comes to fighters. The funny thing is, this is a topic about trying to make the fighter more versatile to move it up the tier ladder. Inevitably, we get the argument that 'Magic is different, and can therefore do whatever, but martial combat actually exists, and should conform to real-world norms.' The very PoV that probably caused WotC to make martials comparatively suck in the first place, and to this day helps keep martials distinctly beneath casters on the tier ladder.

[jiriku]

Daily rearrangement of feats is a start, but won't get you past low tier 4. Some homebrew fighter fixes use it as a start (e.g., this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?194834-3-5-Fighter-Remix-Doin-it-old-school)), but they all add a lot more class features as well.

I was going to shamelessly self-promote my fighter remix, but 137ben beat me to it. :smallbiggrin: Check out the Change of Tactics feat in the second post, which gives the fighter that mid-combat change-up you were looking for.

[Piggy Knowles]

Retraining bonus feats is a fun mechanic, and one of my favorite fighter fixes.

Spoilering a somewhat off-topic response to the fighters with 9th-level spells...


(Note: the 9s fighter is a fighter who uses all his non-fighter feats to gain spells. It takes Magical Training to get a spellbook and spells, Sanctum Spell, Earth Spell and Eldritch Corruption to heighten those spells three levels for free, Practiced Spellcaster to boost CL to 5, and then Extra Slot several times over to gain new spell slots of a higher level. If you believe this trick works, a human with two flaws can use all her standard feats to pull this off and end up with 9th-level spell slots, while you still have all your fighter feats to spend however you'd like.)

I'm one of those who believes that the 9th-level feat fighter doesn't work, by the way. There are three problems with it.

First, Magical Training does not actually give you casting as a wizard. It merely gives you access to a spellbook and the limited ability to cast three 0-level spells a day. You can heighten those spells all you want, but taking Extra Slot doesn't magically give you the ability to cast any spell you might add to your spellbook, because you're still not a wizard; you just have the limited ability to cast three 0-level spells a day.

Second, the build doesn't qualify for Practiced Spellcaster, and as a result doesn't qualify for Extra Slot. Practiced Spellcaster specifically says to choose a spellcasting class that you possess. As you don't possess any levels in any spellcasting classes, you can't apply it to anything. Therefore, your CL remains at CL 1, and so you don't qualify for Extra Slot (which requires CL 4). This is easy enough to bypass, as there are other ways of raising CL, but if you spend more than one feat doing it, then you can't take Extra Slot enough times to hit 9th-level spells.

Third, you need a sufficiently high caster level to cast a spell:


You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question.

Now, every time this argument is brought up, someone points out that WotC never actually defined WHAT that sufficiently high caster level is. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, though, it just means it's not defined. That means that you're in the unfortunate gray area where a DM has to decide what that undefined quantity is.

I know, I know - Oberoni Fallacy. Saying that a DM can rule zero something doesn't mean that the issue doesn't exist. Except that this isn't the same as saying a DM can rule zero away your spells. This is a legitimate gray area in the rules, where a DM has to rule in one way or another. Unless that DM rules that the minimum caster level required to cast 9th-level spells is 5, then the Eldritch Corruption/Extra Slot fighter just plain doesn't work.

That being said, you can use the same trick with a slightly different build if you want, and this one DOES work by RAW, as far as I can tell:

Hexblade 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Fighter 10

Use the same Eldritch Corruption/Earth Spell/Extra Slot trick to piggyback your way up the ladder. You have a CL of 20 thanks to Abjurant Champion's ability. You'll need some way of getting access to sufficiently high level spells, though. However, there are plenty of ways to add spells known to your list, including the bloodlines from Dragon Compendium, Mother Cyst, and items such as runestaves.

[Lans]

Daily rearrangement of feats is a start, but won't get you past low tier 4. Some homebrew fighter fixes use it as a start (e.g., this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?194834-3-5-Fighter-Remix-Doin-it-old-school)), but they all add a lot more class features as well.

Now, if you could swap feats on the fly, AND could swap all feats and not just bonus feats, AND could learn any feats as bonus feats and not just fighter feats, then you could get to tier three. You'd probably have to work harder to break into tier 1-2.

Just swapping fighter bonus feats on the fly gets you to tier 3, but thats mainly due to TOB

[VoxRationis]

The funny thing is, this is a topic about trying to make the fighter more versatile to move it up the tier ladder. Inevitably, we get the argument that 'Magic is different, and can therefore do whatever, but martial combat actually exists, and should conform to real-world norms.' The very PoV that probably caused WotC to make martials comparatively suck in the first place, and to this day helps keep martials distinctly beneath casters on the tier ladder.

Frankly, madam, I don't give a damn about your tier ladder.

A more flexible, versatile fighter is all well and good, but if I want a character who scoffs at the basic premises of reality, I'll play a magic-user. I play fighters and rogues when I don't want to use 1-9 spellcasting slots.

Edit: The 1-9 spellcasting slots comment is a reference to the love of ToB, not the original suggestion, before anyone asks where I got that remark from.

[Flickerdart]

A fighter that can change bonus feats on the fly makes perfect rational sense (inasmuch as Extraordinary abilities do) - he recognizes that the situation requires a particular approach, and shifts stances and strategies to compensate. When fighting a giant easy to hit enemy he will come at it head-on and try to evade blows, making Trip (a technique that requires steady footing to pull off) unusable but something like Power Attack a solid choice. If kobolds suddenly start pouring out of holes in the ceiling, an action lets the fighter reorient himself, size up the situation, and shift his stance accordingly.

Remember that the system doesn't model combat with much granularity at all. You can fluff your attacks any way you want and the game interprets it in 5ft squares and iterative attacks.

[FidgetySquirrel]

Frankly, madam, I don't give a damn about your tier ladder.

A more flexible, versatile fighter is all well and good, but if I want a character who scoffs at the basic premises of reality, I'll play a magic-user. I play fighters and rogues when I don't want to use 1-9 spellcasting slots.

Edit: The 1-9 spellcasting slots comment is a reference to the love of ToB, not the original suggestion, before anyone asks where I got that remark from.Frankly, I don't give a damn about reality in a GAME that scoffs at the basic premises of it. By the way, the rogue and fighter scoff at reality in their own, far less powerful ways. A rogue can dodge an EXPLOSION because rogue. A level 20 orc fighter, with nothing but a high starting strength, level bonuses, and racial bonuses, can military press a BISON! This game is not reality, it's nowhere close!

Saying that martials should be realistic as a matter of style is fine, but the implementation has led to an entire game system where casters might as well be deities, while even the most well optimized martials are barely good enough to shine their damn shoes! Even all of the fixes out there are generally only good enough that you STILL have to either nerf the hell out of primary casters or outright ban them to get anywhere near class balance, because casters were made THAT much more powerful.

Frankly, I'm in a group where the tier ladder doesn't mean squat, but it means quite a lot more than that when discussing the system in the abstract... on an optimization forum of all places.

Not that I care...much, but I'm a guy...

[Jeff the Green]

A fighter that can change bonus feats on the fly makes perfect rational sense (inasmuch as Extraordinary abilities do) - he recognizes that the situation requires a particular approach, and shifts stances and strategies to compensate. When fighting a giant easy to hit enemy he will come at it head-on and try to evade blows, making Trip (a technique that requires steady footing to pull off) unusable but something like Power Attack a solid choice. If kobolds suddenly start pouring out of holes in the ceiling, an action lets the fighter reorient himself, size up the situation, and shift his stance accordingly.

Remember that the system doesn't model combat with much granularity at all. You can fluff your attacks any way you want and the game interprets it in 5ft squares and iterative attacks.

Right. Think of it like this: a Fighter has had so much training he knows all fighter feats he can qualify for. But he has to be in the right stance and mindset to use them, and changing those takes a full round/standard/move/swift action.

[137beth]

Hey, the "Can you Cheat at D&D? Revenge of the Sithsnape" thread gives a perfect explanation for how to make a tier 2 fighter:

How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?

It's just like the tier 2 chicken-infested commoner. Only instead of chickens, this fighter pulls out unlimited Orcuses!

[FidgetySquirrel]

It's just like the tier 2 chicken-infested commoner. Only instead of chickens, this fighter pulls out unlimited Orcuses!Okay, I feel better now.:smallsmile:

[VoxRationis]

Right. Think of it like this: a Fighter has had so much training he knows all fighter feats he can qualify for. But he has to be in the right stance and mindset to use them, and changing those takes a full round/standard/move/swift action.

Except that's not the way feats work for anyone else. The wizard, theoretically, could start crafting potions in the middle of combat, as stupid an idea as that would be. The rogue might still have their Skill Focus (Open Lock) feat in the middle of a fencing duel, even though doing anything like opening locks has got to be out of the "stance and mindset" they would be in at the time. The paladin's Improved Trip functions even if they're kneeling down to heal a sick child. I'm fine with the fighter having a lot of feats, but they shouldn't spontaneously remember and forget them in a fashion alien to the rest of the character build system.

As for people not caring about reality, I'm aware that since this is a game, concessions must be made to abstraction, but a grounding in reality is necessary: otherwise, it ceases to be fantasy and becomes a Salvador Dali painting. And this is not an "optimization forum," at least not on the face of it; it is a forum about gaming (and other things) on the Order of the Stick page (and technically the first book of Erfworld). It is an unfortunate malady that some who frequent the forum envision and hold as correct a standard of play which is completely unrecognizable to the comic and to the makers of the game. But that does not mean the forum must be devoted to optimization.

[Larkas]

Except that's not the way feats work for anyone else.

The wizard can wave his fingers, say a few funny words and he starts flying. However, that's not the way reality works for anyone else, even if they wave their fingers in the exact same way and utter the exact same nonsense as the wizard. Your point is...?

Furthermore, you can fluff that hypothetical fighter however you like. Like Jeff said above, he could just as well be so familiar with every fighting style that he knows all of them, but needs to catch his breath before changing the one he's currently using. If somehow you feel the need to limit this, just let the fighter do this on-the-fly change to his fighter bonus feats only, AKA his class features.

That's a rather elegant solution, by the way.

[SethoMarkus]

The wizard can wave his fingers, say a few funny words and he starts flying. However, that's not the way reality works for anyone else, even if they wave their fingers in the exact same way and utter the exact same nonsense as the wizard. Your point is...?

Actually, isn't that the rationale behind how a Factotum can cast spells? They are so good at observing and mimicking spellcasters that they can recreate the precise gestures and intonations of the spell to produce the same effect without fully understanding how it works?

I have to agree with VoxRationis that it irks me to think of a fighter being able to forget and remember a set of knowledge (feat) at will. Perhaps the better fix would be to give fighters additional bonus feats and expand the list from which those bonus fighter feats can be chosen? That itself wouldn't be game breaking. You can even throw in full IL for free!

[Larkas]

Actually, isn't that the rationale behind how a Factotum can cast spells? They are so good at observing and mimicking spellcasters that they can recreate the precise gestures and intonations of the spell to produce the same effect without fully understanding how it works?

But why do you have to be a Factotum to do that? Why can't anyone that succeeds in a Spot/Listen roll do the same?


I have to agree with VoxRationis that it irks me to think of a fighter being able to forget and remember a set of knowledge (feat) at will. Perhaps the better fix would be to give fighters additional bonus feats and expand the list from which those bonus fighter feats can be chosen? That itself wouldn't be game breaking. You can even throw in full IL for free!

I don't disagree with the latter part of your post, but I can't help but think that you're not really listening with regards to the first part. The fighter doesn't need to forget his class features to make way for new ones (after all, that's the realm of wizards... Right?), he may just as well know ALL the fighter bonus feats to which he qualifies, but needs to prepare (himself, not the feats) before using them. You know? Just like you need a specific footing before using a few martial arts techniques in real life?

[Flickerdart]

Except that's not the way feats work for anyone else. The wizard, theoretically, could start crafting potions in the middle of combat, as stupid an idea as that would be. The rogue might still have their Skill Focus (Open Lock) feat in the middle of a fencing duel, even though doing anything like opening locks has got to be out of the "stance and mindset" they would be in at the time. The paladin's Improved Trip functions even if they're kneeling down to heal a sick child. I'm fine with the fighter having a lot of feats, but they shouldn't spontaneously remember and forget them in a fashion alien to the rest of the character build system.

As for people not caring about reality, I'm aware that since this is a game, concessions must be made to abstraction, but a grounding in reality is necessary: otherwise, it ceases to be fantasy and becomes a Salvador Dali painting. And this is not an "optimization forum," at least not on the face of it; it is a forum about gaming (and other things) on the Order of the Stick page (and technically the first book of Erfworld). It is an unfortunate malady that some who frequent the forum envision and hold as correct a standard of play which is completely unrecognizable to the comic and to the makers of the game. But that does not mean the forum must be devoted to optimization.
It's easy to grumble and complain about how a way to fluff something doesn't work, but without cooperation there wouldn't be D&D in the first place. Yes, it's not a perfect idea - but thinking about how it could make sense is infinitely more productive than sitting down and deciding it can't possibly.

Incidentally, have you ever used "my character would do X" as rationale for something detrimental to the party?

[FidgetySquirrel]

For what it's worth...


You are on an optimization forum.

30+ pages of a certain thread ('http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357981-Can-you-cheat-at-D-amp-D) later, and not a single person saying this isn't the case. At the very least, it would seem that most people agree that this forum has a lot to do with optimization. Not to say that's the only thing it's for, of course.

And again, I play low-OP. This kind of fix is precisely the sort of thing my group doesn't need. The fact is, however, that most people who are passionate enough about the game to post in a forum like this have an incredible deal of system mastery. They learned, long ago, that the wizard has to go out of it's way not to step on everyone's toes, and that the lowly fighter is good for hitting things, but stilll can't end an encounter as fast as a wizard. The wizard can do everything, the fighter can do ONE thing, and the wizard can still do it better most of the time. Hence, people try to help the martial classes, like the fighter.

I understand that this fix could be looked at as pretty silly. I disagree, though. With the right mechanics and solid fluff, it could come across as totally reasonable, I think.

Sorry I kind of flipped out awhile back, but whenever I see words like reality or logic in relation to the rules, I think of this ('http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361223-So-unless-I-m-mistaken-Pathfinder-has-2-Year-Old-Humans-as-Int-2).




Incidentally, have you ever used "my character would do X" as rationale for something detrimental to the party?Uhh... how detrimental we talkin' here? I draw the line at 'might get someone killed.' But I'll inconvenience other PCs all day, we all agree that that's something we'll do.

[Renen]

Actually, reading this, it DOES seem like a good idea to let fighter repick all his fighter feats at a cost of a swift action (perhaps a certain amount of times per day).

[Yael]

Maybe giving it some kind of magic when they fight, and some int-related abilities, and some kind of level to those "tricks" you do when fighting... Dunno, increasing its HD to d12, and skills to 4+Int... but... I don't know, deja vu?

[VoxRationis]

The fighter doesn't need to forget his class features to make way for new ones (after all, that's the realm of wizards... Right?)

That is NOT the realm of wizards. A wizard's prepared spells are NOT the analogue of the fighter's feats. A far better comparison would be the sorcerer's spells known. And yes, I know they can retrain every so many levels, and yes, that wouldn't be a bad thing to give to other people, which is why you can find retraining rules in Unearthed Arcana. A wizard's class features don't change that readily: their spellbook and its contents. The wizard isn't forgetting anything, particularly given that, pace Spell Mastery, they never really "knew" the spells in the first place; they have them written down on a 15 gp cheat sheet.

And Flickerdart, that question—although I sense it was really a rhetorical one, meant as a sneer to the other posters rather than a real question for me— is a prelude to an ad hominem argument, a logical fallacy where you attempt to disparage and discredit me rather than my considered opinions.

[Flickerdart]

And Flickerdart, that question—although I sense it was really a rhetorical one, meant as a sneer to the other posters rather than a real question for me— is a prelude to an ad hominem argument, a logical fallacy where you attempt to disparage and discredit me rather than my considered opinions.
I'd prefer if you answered it, rather than attempt to read my mind and insult me by attributing malice where there was none.

[VoxRationis]

You expect me to believe that your question about whether I had done an uncooperative act, immediately following a lecture, only tangentially related to the topic at hand, about the virtues of cooperation, was not an attempt to find fodder to use against me in lieu of refuting my argument?

Anyway, Senator McCarthy, not that my role-playing is really relevant to this thread, the answer is yes, I probably have done something of minor detriment to one or more fellow PCs because I deemed it appropriate in character, but no, I do not do so habitually; most of my characters are good team players.

[Larkas]

That is NOT the realm of wizards. A wizard's prepared spells are NOT the analogue of the fighter's feats. A far better comparison would be the sorcerer's spells known. And yes, I know they can retrain every so many levels, and yes, that wouldn't be a bad thing to give to other people, which is why you can find retraining rules in Unearthed Arcana.

You're correct insofar as a sorcerer's spells known are fixed, just as a fighter's feats are. But a sorcerer's spells known are just as much an analogue to a wizard's spells prepared. If A is analogue to B and C, B is (in this case, I'm not generalizing here) also analogue to C. You may not agree with this, but your opinions and preferences are not the only ones valid in these boards, I should think.


A wizard's class features don't change that readily: their spellbook and its contents. The wizard isn't forgetting anything, particularly given that, pace Spell Mastery, they never really "knew" the spells in the first place; they have them written down on a 15 gp cheat sheet.

Where are you getting that from? The SRD is very clear regarding wizards' spells known:


A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.

Save for a few references to pages, the wording in my PHB 3.5 is the same. The wording in my PHB 3.0 is also pretty much the same, as is the one in my PF Core Rulebook, for that matter. Wizards are constantly forgetting how to use class features they know. What fellow Playgrounders are proposing in this thread is just a fix in that the fighter does the same (though, as said at least three times now, they don't need to be fluffed as forgetting their feats). It's not a huge stretch by any definition of the word.