Monster stats.

[BroonofMidori]

So I am planning on running a 4th ed campaign sometime in the near future. I don't have much experience with playing it, just a little here and there but I like the style of it.

I'm not a huge number cruncher but I do like to know where the stats come from. Looking at several stat blocks for monsters in the Monster's Manual I'm not totally sure how they came up with some of the bonuses.

For example, an Orc Raider - Level 3 skirmisher. It shows an attack with a Greataxe at +8 vs AC. How does it come to a +8? With a str of 17(+3)+half level(1)+Proficiency greataxe(+2), I get a +6 to attack. Where does the other +2 come from? Is it assumed to have a magic weapon? Is there a racial bonus for orc, or a feat that I'm missing? Or is it just something created that way for balance?

It is the same thing for AC. It has an ac of 17(10+half level(1)+leather armor(2)) How is the ac a 17? It is nothing major, just something that bugs me. Thanks for any responses.

[NecroRebel]

Monsters use absolutely different math from PCs. Really, they're not in the slightest bit related. In truth, they're intentionally completely arbitrary, too, based off where players' attack and defense values are supposed to be at a given level rather than what would make sense based on the monster's other stats. This math was altered somewhat after Monster Manual 3 was introduced because the existing math was found to make battles that were largely nonthreatening slogs, but you can find the math used prior to that in the Dungeon Master's Guide on page 184.

A skirmisher's attacks vs. AC are supposed to swing at about their level+5 for single-target attacks, for instance. That's where the level 3 Orc Raider's +8 attack bonus comes from. The attributes? Completely irrelevant. Same with the AC - a skirmisher's AC is approximately 14+their level, while their other defenses are approximately 12+level. Most monsters follow those numbers pretty closely, but often one defense will be slightly lower than expected and another boosted a bit.



As I said, the math from MM3 and beyond is somewhat different, and also makes for better monsters. It fits on a business card, if you're interested. (http://blogofholding.com/?p=512)

[Kimera757]

So I am planning on running a 4th ed campaign sometime in the near future. I don't have much experience with playing it, just a little here and there but I like the style of it.

I'm not a huge number cruncher but I do like to know where the stats come from. Looking at several stat blocks for monsters in the Monster's Manual I'm not totally sure how they came up with some of the bonuses.

That's your error right there, using the Monster Manual I. It makes no sense.

Take a look at the Monster on a Business Card or other revised monster math source.

Generally in the new math, a monster's attack bonus is level +5 vs AC or level +3 vs NAD, +2 if artillery (and making a ranged or area attack). Note that ability scores and so forth aren't actually factored into the math, and I think that's for the better.

AC is level +14, -2 if brute or artillery, +2 if soldier.

NAD is level +12, -1 for poor NAD, +1 for good NAD.


It is the same thing for AC. It has an ac of 17(10+half level(1)+leather armor(2)) How is the ac a 17? It is nothing major, just something that bugs me. Thanks for any responses.

The new math fixes that issue, but I notice you didn't factor Dex into the AC.

[Tegu8788]

The business card is really good. Really good. I also use this (http://slyflourish.com/master_dm_sheet.pdf), and between these and an XP chart, I don't have to check anything else, and can make things up on the fly.

[BroonofMidori]

Monsters use absolutely different math from PCs. Really, they're not in the slightest bit related. In truth, they're intentionally completely arbitrary, too, based off where players' attack and defense values are supposed to be at a given level rather than what would make sense based on the monster's other stats. This math was altered somewhat after Monster Manual 3 was introduced because the existing math was found to make battles that were largely nonthreatening slogs, but you can find the math used prior to that in the Dungeon Master's Guide on page 184.

A skirmisher's attacks vs. AC are supposed to swing at about their level+5 for single-target attacks, for instance. That's where the level 3 Orc Raider's +8 attack bonus comes from. The attributes? Completely irrelevant. Same with the AC - a skirmisher's AC is approximately 14+their level, while their other defenses are approximately 12+level. Most monsters follow those numbers pretty closely, but often one defense will be slightly lower than expected and another boosted a bit.



As I said, the math from MM3 and beyond is somewhat different, and also makes for better monsters. It fits on a business card, if you're interested. (http://blogofholding.com/?p=512)


Yeah I saw the stats in the DMG, but even then some of the numbers didn't work out. I was just wanting to make sure I didn't miss something. I like the business card idea. When you do a boss encounter, and they end up having magic gear do you add the bonuses from gear to their stats too? Or just stick with the card model and hand out loot afterwards? And thanks for the response.

[Inevitability]

Yeah I saw the stats in the DMG, but even then some of the numbers didn't work out. I was just wanting to make sure I didn't miss something. I like the business card idea. When you do a boss encounter, and they end up having magic gear do you add the bonuses from gear to their stats too? Or just stick with the card model and hand out loot afterwards? And thanks for the response.

No. Magic gear bonuses are already calculated in the monster's stats. You can apply minor modifications, such as having the sword attack of a hobgoblin wielding a fire sword deal fire damage, or giving the enemy who wears a Amulet of Health poison resistance, but the enhancement bonuses have already been calculated.

[dariathalon]

Actually, unless it's been changed, that is not always true. You may want to look at the monster magic threshold rules in the DMG. If the enhancement bonus is high enough, the monster still benefits from the bonus (or part of it anyway).

[Kimera757]

Actually, unless it's been changed, that is not always true. You may want to look at the monster magic threshold rules in the DMG. If the enhancement bonus is high enough, the monster still benefits from the bonus (or part of it anyway).

Even a rich monster isn't likely to have magic items way beyond its level. At most you have a +1 bonus to hit and damage, or NADs, or AC. (Of course, a magic weapon still gives devastating crits, and a Charismatic monster wielding a vanguard weapon is still scary.)

[Duke5150]

NecroRebel, thank you for posting that link. I've been wanting to see something like that since the mm3 came out! It's such a simple method! I will definitely use this! Thank you!

Tegu, thanks for the pdf link. I'm always looking for helpful design resources to make my life as a Dm easier!