Help with Gunslinger build...

[KadTalon]

Hi everyone,

I'm starting a new pathfinder campaing with my friends and I'll be playing a gunslinger. I've never played this class before and the only time I've played a ranged character was years ago with a 3ed D&D Ranger, so I'm looking for some help from more experienced players.

We're using a custom scenario with a few house rules:
1. You cannot multi-class, unless it's a prestige class (and only 1 is allowed).
2. Although the gunsmithing feat still allows me to craft guns and ammo for 50% and 10% of the price, I'll need to make a Craft (Gunsmithing) check to create the itens.
3. Our attributes are rolled on the dice, and they can only be changed using 1 rule: Removing 2 points from one attribute allow you to add 1 point in another att.
4. The only guns allowed at the beggining of the game are early pistols.

My character is a Human, and we're starting at lv. 1. My starting GP is 170 and we're free to take any itens from the core rulebook, advanced player's guide, ultimate magic and ultimate combat. The same goes for feats...

The atts are:
STR: 12
DEX: 18
CON: 12
INT: 11
WIS: 16 (14 natural + 2 human)
CHA: 11

I'm still working on his background, but it's something like:
-He used to live with his older brother, wich was a merchant, in a region of dead magic.
-Unkown to him, his brother discovered he had magic due the origins of his family.
-One day when he came home, he found a note of his brother saying that he (the brother) would be leaving for a while and the my character should take care of himself. Along with the note, he left the old family gun wich he used to carry on his travels.
-My character ultametly decided to leave his place of origin and wander the world trying to find his brother.

What skills, feats and equipment would you recomend for starting the game? The focus of our campaing is not on combat (although it's usually challenging), so I'm trying to build a character that's useful both in and out of combat. I'm thinking something like a scout/mobile gunner (pistolero)

My party has an Oracle with the battle mystery, a monk and a custom-made class that's called inventor (basically, it's an alchemist for mechanical inventions and lots of skills).

Thanks in advance for any tips!

Ps. Sorry for any "bad english", it's not my primary language =/

[Iwasforger03]

Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are your feats. You go ranged, those are already decided.

I recommend taking the Pistolero Archetype if allowed. If you are using a pistol it's definitely gonna help you out a TON.


Feats to aim for down the road depend on builds, but extra grit and signature deed are two of the best feats for you as you progress.

Toughness might be in order as well.

Also look for: Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Deadly aim

If you wish to attempt it, you can Two Weapon Fight with Pistols, which means you'll need Two weapon fighting and its improved and greater versions. But that's useless until you A) have a second pistol, and B) you can reload quickly enough.

Guntwirling + quickdraw (both feats) are good choices early on. Normally it takes two hands to reload guns, so you'd have to drop or set down or sheathe one gun to reload the other using two weapon fighting, which is... impractical. Guntwirling and Quickdraw together allow you to holster and draw your guns as free actions, meaning you have, by RAW hands free whenever you need them to reload.

Consider Pepperboxes or Double Barrel Pistols down the road if available.

[Chernobyl]

Vital Strike is a good feat for a gunslinger.

[Sayt]

I'm sorry, I must disagree, Vital Strike is not ever a good feat for anything except a druid wild-shaped into a Behemoth Hippopotamus.

Pistolero is a very good archetype (Well, most of them are decent, really), and is extremely good when combined with two weapon fighting.


As for feats, Iwasforger03 is on the right track: Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload are vital. If you're able to get another pistol, you'll want to get two weapon fighting, and probably Gun Twirling (Good, but from Inner Sea Combat) as well. Precise and Improved Precise shot will increase your ability to project damage through concealment based miss chances.

It might also be worth looking into Combat Reflexes, Snap Shot, Improved and Greater Snap shot for later levels.

[grarrrg]

Vital Strike can be good if your DM harshly frowns on Rapid Reload+Cartridges. Being able to get all of your attacks when you can't Free action reload is nice.
BUT
There is a level 7 Gunslinger Deed (Dead Shot) that does almost the exact same thing. It auto-scales with level, and you Misfire only if _every_ attack roll is a misfire. Downsides are that it's a Full Round action and costs 1 Grit.


Also, I would advise against trying to Two-Weapon fight with guns. At least for now. With the restrictions (books/multi-classing) your DM has in place this is not really feasible, unless you get access to Revolvers at some point.
That said, a Double Barreled Pistol/Musket will serve you well.

[KadTalon]

Thanks for all the help guys.

My DM is lenient in some aspects but not so much in others... for example, I've talked to him and he allowed the use of feats and other stuff from other books as long it's "official" (meaning, published by Paizo). On the other hand, he frowned uppon the use of "gun twirling + quick draw" to reload and fire dual pistols in the same turn. He believes that would be "bending the rules to break the game". He's still considering the use o "rapid-reload + alchemical cartridges" to allow full attacks on the same round.

Also, after I've talked with him he also allowed the use of muskets at the beginning (opening the possibility for the musket master archetype).

It's decided that my character would be the main scout of the party... even though stealth isn't a class skill, it's still a viable build? (I'll try to ask my DM to switch one of the fixed regional traits for the slippery trait, but that's a longshot).

As for the "fighting style", I'm now torn between the classic "desperado" (being more mobile on the battlefield and wielding a pistol [Pistolero]) and the "sniper" (staying back and moving to find the best firing positions [musket master]).

Any tips on those?

[Iwasforger03]

Sniper doesn't work with straight Gunslinger, or guns in general. It can, but it hits REALLY late. Desperado works from lvl 1. The reason sniper doesn't work is that you need the enemy to see you to get your grit back when you crit or kill them. If they make a sniper archetype (which would be cool) it could work, but right now, sniper+guns doesn't work so well.


Pistolero is generally the most effective type of gunslinger. Explain to your GM that guns aren't nearly as scary as he thinks they are, and that TWF gunslingers are used because it is one of the few truly effective gunslinger builds. Yes, you could say it is "Bending the rules to break the game," but then, It is generally accepted that's why Paizo gave us the feat, so that we could reliably use Two weapon fighting with Pistol gunslinger. That's what the feat is FOR. The feint is just an extra. You need that feat to TWF, otherwise stick with one gun, and with Pistolero you'll still be useful and reliable, just less so. On the other hand, NOT going TWF does free up feat space in the short and long run, so if you want some extra versatility using just one gun might be the way to go. Gunslingers do, afterall, get martial weapon proficiency and full BAB, so they can whip out swords, knives, axes, etc and have at it. If you wish to have that as a backup, it's gonna cost you a feat, Weapon Finesse (just in case you didn't already know about it).

[KadTalon]

I've talked to my DM and he says that the twirling gun combo is off the table =/. So I think I'll aim for the Pistolero archetype with a double-barreled pistol down the road... by the time I would get my third attack, I'll probably have the Dead Shot deed as a signature deed anyway.

That actually leads me to another question: If I'm carrying a single gun, is it possible to use the Twin Shot Knockdown without a double-barreled pistol or pepperbox?

Another thing that's kind of worrying me is the range of the pistols. Since it's first range increment is only 20ft, I'll need to either get close enough to the target or stay behind the melee fighters and "shoot over their shoulders", right? Is it worth investing in the deft shootist tree to avoid those nasty attacks of opportunity?

Also, I'm considering placing the +2 from the human att on DEX (making it 20, instead of 18), and droping the WIS from 16 to 14 (and later on grabing the extra grit feat). Is that a good option?

[Iwasforger03]

since you are starting at lvl 1, if i'm reading this right, i'd keep wisdom at at least a 16. You are aiming for touch, you can get by with a dex of 18 and wisdom 18 gets you more grit, grit is good. You'll never have enough grit.

Getting repeatedly attacked isn't something you should have to worry about too much. And down the road there are tricks to extend your range increment, though i can't remember them off the top of my head.

Keep Two Weapon fighting in reserve and wait. If the game reaches any point where you are under performing compared to the rest of the party, ask your dm if you can please kindly use two weapon fighting and gun twirling to compensate and put you back on pace with the rest of the party. If you never reach a point where you are underperforming compared to the others, you never needed two weapon fighting anyways, and everything is fine.

But whatever you do, never let the DM say to you, "well, it's your fault for picking gunslinger, that's why you fell behind," unless he says it AFTER he puts gun twirling and TWF back on the table. It is not your fault the DM took your best option off the table, it's his.

The DM can tell you no, because it's breaking the rules as intended (though in gun twirling's case, that's really more fulfilling the rules as intended), and you can still achieve two weapon fighting with a pepperbox or Revolver down the road from here. But he can't tell you anything is your fault if he took it off the table. I can't say if he's that kind of guy (clearly i haven't met him), but I've been running into a surprising number of people like that lately, so I felt you were owed to be forewarned.

[grarrrg]

still achieve two weapon fighting with a pepperbox or Revolver down the road from here

Pepperbox still doesn't help unless you have an extra arm or something. You still need a free hand to 'turn the chamber'. And if you have a free hand you can just reload another other gun anyway.

[Iwasforger03]

Pepperbox still doesn't help unless you have an extra arm or something. You still need a free hand to 'turn the chamber'. And if you have a free hand you can just reload another other gun anyway.

It's a free action to turn the chamber, you should be able to do if while still holding a gun. At least, I think it should be possible. It's much less complicated than reloading the weapon.

[grarrrg]

It's a free action to turn the chamber, you should be able to do if while still holding a gun. At least, I think it should be possible. It's much less complicated than reloading the weapon.

The description (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/pepperbox) says you still need one free hand.
And with the amount of "nope" this guy is getting from his DM I don't see "semi-free hand" being allowed.

At this rate I'm just going to assume that the best he's going to get is a single Double-Barreled Pistol (or Musket) and go from there.

[Iwasforger03]

The description (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/pepperbox) says you still need one free hand.
And with the amount of "nope" this guy is getting from his DM I don't see "semi-free hand" being allowed.

At this rate I'm just going to assume that the best he's going to get is a single Double-Barreled Pistol (or Musket) and go from there.

His DM is very heavily Nerfing the gunslinger. I suppose he's like alot of guys who haven't encountered it before, they don't understand it and see something way scarier than what's actually there.

Can gunslingers be awesome? Yes, BUT, they aren't nearly as OP as i've seen many players and DMs first believe them to be. It's kind of sad actually.

[KadTalon]

His DM is very heavily Nerfing the gunslinger. I suppose he's like alot of guys who haven't encountered it before, they don't understand it and see something way scarier than what's actually there.

That's the main problem, I believe. Usually he's a very reasonable DM... he even created an entire class for one of the players just so he could play the character he imagined. But, like me, he never had a Gunslinger on the table...

He said that the main problem with the twirling combo isn't the "power" it would bring to the table nor the rules that allow it... but how the mechanic of the action, in the game, would happen.

Maybe you guys can clarify how that sequence would go (thinking about the in-game mechanic, not just the rules)?

Assuming that my character has quickdraw, twirling gun, rapid reload and is using paper cartridges, after he fired both shots, he would be: Holstering Gun 1 -> Reloading Gun 2 -> Holstering Gun 2 -> Drawing Gun 1 -> Reloading Gun 1 -> Drawing Gun 2. All of that as a free action?

The main point of discussion between me and him is the definition of a free action:

Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

From his point of view, the sum of all those actions would be more time-consuming than a free-action should be. Maybe you guys can help me clarify this for him.

Thanks for all the help =D

[Iwasforger03]

No, he's right. This is RAW vs GM interpretation here. It works by RAW but some GM's reasonably don't accept RAW because of situations exactly like this. It works by the rules but in reality it shouldn't work. We're saying in this case he should allow it anyways because even those it does look/feel like it should take that much time, the Gunslinger isn't as well constructed of a chassis as it first appears. It's deceptively underpowered without a couple tricks. This is one of the most reliable ones to put it back on an even keel. Two Weapon fighting Gunslingers ARE strong, when allowed, but they are not so strong as to blow the rest of the party out of the water by any means, unless the rest of the party is seriously below average.

Like I said, since you can't do it for a couple levels anyways, wait and see if you're actually gonna need it to keep up. IF you do, argue that you should be allowed to "abuse" RAW to keep your character on a more even playing field with your party. Otherwise, enjoy having more feat slots to burn on other concerns and just have fun with the game.

[grarrrg]

The main point of discussion between me and him is the definition of a free action:

From his point of view, the sum of all those actions would be more time-consuming than a free-action should be. Maybe you guys can help me clarify this for him.

Like Iwasforger03 said, your DM is perfectly within his rights to limit Free Actions.
They even made a FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9r85) about such.
Just be glad that Paizo removed the "specific examples" because they originally said "about 3 Free Actions should be plenty!".
Yeah...they took THAT little tidbit down pretty quickly after massive backlash.


Anywho, if it comes to it, point out that Gun Twirling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/grit-feats/gun-twirling-grit) comes with a hefty Feat Tax.
You need Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display.
Weapon Focus is pretty sub-par, and Dazzling Display is only useful if you're investing in Intimidate anyway.
So you're ultimately looking at _FIVE FEATS_* just to reliably get _ONE_ extra attack every round with a second weapon.
And Guns are not Light weapons, so the TWF penalties are -4/-4.

Honestly, you're pretty much better off just dipping Alchemist for 2 levels and growing a Vestigial arm to reload with.

*Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Gun Twirling, Quick Draw, and Two Weapon Fighting.

[KadTalon]

I see... then there's not much I can do about it. Like I said, he's a very reasonable guy, so if I start to fall behind the rest of the party he's likely to allow me to "rebuild" the character to stay competitive...

Thanks for all the help. In any case, I'll go for a Pistolero archetype with a more "desperado" style and aim for a double-barreled pistol or pepperbox down the road.

For my starting feats I'm considering Rapid Reload and Point-Blank Shot, and the skills are: Stealth, Acrobatics, Perception, Heal and Craft (Gunsmithing).

On the other hand, due to all the restraints my DM is imposing I'm considering making my character a Ranger with the Falconer Archetype (to add a little "flavor" for the character).

What you guys think?

[Iwasforger03]

I suppose you can skip precise shot for now in favor of reloading, since you are shooting at touch AC, which is very easy to hit on early enemies, but be forewarned, that -4 penalty for shooting into melee is gonna hurt until you take Precise Shot.