Arcane Swordsage Spell List

[Kymme]

A preface: Before anyone jumps on me, I am aware of how hilariously broken the Arcane Swordsage is as it stands as an adaptation sidebar in Tome of Battle. I am aware that can do Heroics/Martial Study shenanigans and know every spell ever. I want to change that.

One of my players has expressed interest in the idea of someone who casts spells in non-vancian ways. He's tried out Binders, Psions, Incarnum-type stuff, and nothing really strikes his fancy. He was paging through my copy of Tome of Battle and found the arcane swordsage adaptation. I explained to him that it was wildly overpowered because it could access every single transmutation, abjuration, and evocation spell ever and abuse the crap out of that.

He thought about this for a few hours, then came back with an idea: What if you made a smaller spell list like the warmage or duskblade for the arcane swordsage to use?

I thought that this idea might work, but I have absolutely zero experience when it comes to making spell lists. So I'm turning to the Playground.

Would anybody like to help me create a spell list for the Arcane Swordsage that isn't wildly overpowered?

[Gildedragon]

Interesting. This probably ought go in the Homebrew section. But some ideas:
Transmutation:
Cat's Grace
Owl's Wisdom
Bear's Endurance
Bull's Strength
Mages' Transformation (a couple levels early)

[DeAnno]

Some ground rules you might want to think about:


All active spell durations automatically expire when you refresh maneuvers
Reduce all spell durations longer than 1 round/level to 1 round/level
Limit it to spells with Range personal or touch, as the text suggests
Limit it to the Sor/Wiz list or the Wu Jen list (either, not both)
Metamagic doesn't work


I think that probably closes off most of the really stupid stuff?

[Kymme]

Interesting. This probably ought go in the Homebrew section. But some ideas:
Transmutation:
Cat's Grace
Owl's Wisdom
Bear's Endurance
Bull's Strength
Mages' Transformation (a couple levels early)

Stat booster spells are pretty much a must-have. I'll see about putting a list on the OP with the chosen spells.


Some ground rules you might want to think about:


All active spell durations automatically expire when you refresh maneuvers
Reduce all spell durations longer than 1 round/level to 1 round/level
Limit it to spells with Range personal or touch, as the text suggests
Limit it to the Sor/Wiz list or the Wu Jen list (either, not both)
Metamagic doesn't work


I think that probably closes off most of the really stupid stuff?

That's actually a great idea, not to mention makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, the durations ought to be reduced.

I'm not so sure I want to take away the option of blasting magics. I think that limiting spells to personal or range would make more sense for a magical martial artist. It's not like you can give stances or boosts to other people, anyways.

Eh, I'd much rather have a custom-made list that isn't as open-ended as the Sor/Wiz list or as thematically limited to the Wu Jen list.

Metamagic not working is a must, though.

Thank you guys!

[Gildedragon]

Long duration spells (non-instantaneous, non-dischargeable) are stances, can only target self

Instantaneous spells are maneuvers in general

spells that are discharged: need tinkering. They could be divided into a maneuver and a stance: the duration-effect being a stance, the discharge being a maneuver.

[Rebel7284]

what tier is the rest of the party and what tier does the player want to be at?

edit: also, did the player explain what types of spells he wants to cast?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The fiance of one of my gaming group loves Arcane Swordsage because it's so easy for her to play and keeps up with our high optimization play style. Between being able to constantly use Ray of Flame, Whirling Blade, and Greater Mage Hand in the early levels, and transitioning into Sleet Storm, Disintegrate, and Ruby Ray of Reversal ("win ray" as our regular DM calls it), plus constantly keeping the party buffed with Dolorous Blow, and being able to use Nerveskitter into Haste at the start of every encounter, it definitely carries its weight as more of a support/disable caster that still gets decent damage output.

I would allow personal-range long-duration buffs to be constantly kept active as long as he keeps them readied such as Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire, but make non-personal long-duration buffs only usable in one instance at a time (i.e. once on one target) as long as he keeps it readied such as Greater/Superior Resistance, Energy Immunity, and Mind Blank. Buffs that target more than one creature would have their duration reduced to a round/level if it's not already (Mass Resist Energy).


Depending on what he wants the character to be able to do, you may consider another variant that my group has implemented, a Warblade that can learn Psychic Warrior powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powerList.htm#psychicWarriorPowers) as maneuvers. Limit each power level to the class level a Psychic Warrior would normally get it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm). Each power would be augmented for free up to his initiator level in power points. This would make him more of a self-buffing melee combatant with a little bit of utility, a Warblade gets far fewer maneuvers known compared to Swordsage, and he would be gaining access to each power level later than the Arcane Swordsage would get spell levels. Just ban him from taking Vigor.

[Kymme]

what tier is the rest of the party and what tier does the player want to be at?

edit: also, did the player explain what types of spells he wants to cast?

He wants to be around Tier 3/Tier 2. That way he can stay on par with a lot of what his fellow players are doing.

As far as actual spellcasting, think something like this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FullContactMagic).


The fiance of one of my gaming group loves Arcane Swordsage because it's so easy for her to play and keeps up with our high optimization play style. Between being able to constantly use Ray of Flame, Whirling Blade, and Greater Mage Hand in the early levels, and transitioning into Sleet Storm, Disintegrate, and Ruby Ray of Reversal ("win ray" as our regular DM calls it), plus constantly keeping the party buffed with Dolorous Blow, and being able to use Nerveskitter into Haste at the start of every encounter, it definitely carries its weight as more of a support/disable caster that still gets decent damage output.

That seems like exactly what my player is looking for. What Tier would you say that weighs in at?


I would allow personal-range long-duration buffs to be constantly kept active as long as he keeps them readied such as Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire, but make non-personal long-duration buffs only usable in one instance at a time (i.e. once on one target) as long as he keeps it readied such as Greater/Superior Resistance, Energy Immunity, and Mind Blank. Buffs that target more than one creature would have their duration reduced to a round/level if it's not already (Mass Resist Energy).

I think that something like that makes sense. That way if the Swordsage in question uses adaptive style to change up all of his prepared maneuvers spells, then the effects currently active on him expire.


Depending on what he wants the character to be able to do, you may consider another variant that my group has implemented, a Warblade that can learn Psychic Warrior powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powerList.htm#psychicWarriorPowers) as maneuvers. Limit each power level to the class level a Psychic Warrior would normally get it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm). Each power would be augmented for free up to his initiator level in power points. This would make him more of a self-buffing melee combatant with a little bit of utility, a Warblade gets far fewer maneuvers known compared to Swordsage, and he would be gaining access to each power level later than the Arcane Swordsage would get spell levels. Just ban him from taking Vigor.

This also seems really cool. I'll talk to him about this option, too. Thank you for all you help!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

He wants to be around Tier 3/Tier 2. That way he can stay on par with a lot of what his fellow players are doing.

As far as actual spellcasting, think something like this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FullContactMagic).

That seems like exactly what my player is looking for. What Tier would you say that weighs in at?

I think that something like that makes sense. That way if the Swordsage in question uses adaptive style to change up all of his prepared maneuvers spells, then the effects currently active on him expire.

This also seems really cool. I'll talk to him about this option, too. Thank you for all you help!

My group plays extremely high op, so using Disintegrate to deal 22d6 damage every other round at 11th level is par for the course. This is one step behind Aberration Wild Shaping into a Beholder with Assume Supernatural Ability: Eye Rays, which gives you all ten of its at-will eye rays. That trick would be Tier 0 considering he could also cast spells when using the eye rays, and Arcane Swordsage with the spell choices we've helped her choose would definitely be at least Tier 1. Just take a look at Ruby Ray of Reversal in Spell Compendium, and imagine a character capable of using that at will. Anything and everything the party ever interacts with will get hit with that from a distance before they even consider getting close to it, it's even more powerful than using the Summon Elemental reserve feat to Nodwick every dungeon.

Also remember that Arcane Swordsage can use Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mighty Wallop, etc. Get an Executioner's Mace from Dungeon issue 135 (two-handed martial, 2d6 20/x3, bludgeoning and slashing), put Greater Mighty Wallop and Greater Magic Weapon on it at 8th level, and use Wraithstrike with Whirling Blade and Power Attack for -6 with Armbands of Might. You'll get 4d6+16+(1.5 highest of Str or Int or Cha) against every opponent in a 60-ft. line. You can put that line diagonal across two rows of twelve squares, hitting up to 24 opponents at once. Then Adaptive Style to recover Wraithstrike and Whirling Blade and do it again the next round. Or just (Martial Study:) White Raven Tactics yourself and recover them in the same round.

Basically, a Swordsage is currently decent at combat with a bit of thinking and positioning and very decent at utility and noncombat encounters. An Arcane Swordsage can get a few powerful (when available at-will) spells to cover nearly every utility situation (Greater Mage Hand, one teleport maneuver, Ruby Ray of Reversal), and put the rest toward brute-force, high-damage buffs and combos and extremely potent crowd control effects that can be used half a dozen times in every encounter.

I would probably limit the character to no more than 1/3 of their maneuvers known (rounded down) being spells, and reserve the right to veto any spell's availability as a maneuver.

[Kymme]

My group plays extremely high op, so using Disintegrate to deal 22d6 damage every other round at 11th level is par for the course. This is one step behind Aberration Wild Shaping into a Beholder with Assume Supernatural Ability: Eye Rays, which gives you all ten of its at-will eye rays. That trick would be Tier 0 considering he could also cast spells when using the eye rays, and Arcane Swordsage with the spell choices we've helped her choose would definitely be at least Tier 1. Just take a look at Ruby Ray of Reversal in Spell Compendium, and imagine a character capable of using that at will. Anything and everything the party ever interacts with will get hit with that from a distance before they even consider getting close to it, it's even more powerful than using the Summon Elemental reserve feat to Nodwick every dungeon.

Also remember that Arcane Swordsage can use Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mighty Wallop, etc. Get an Executioner's Mace from Dungeon issue 135 (two-handed martial, 2d6 20/x3, bludgeoning and slashing), put Greater Mighty Wallop and Greater Magic Weapon on it at 8th level, and use Wraithstrike with Whirling Blade and Power Attack for -6 with Armbands of Might. You'll get 4d6+16+(1.5 highest of Str or Int or Cha) against every opponent in a 60-ft. line. You can put that line diagonal across two rows of twelve squares, hitting up to 24 opponents at once. Then Adaptive Style to recover Wraithstrike and Whirling Blade and do it again the next round. Or just (Martial Study:) White Raven Tactics yourself and recover them in the same round.

Yeah, that sounds terrifying.

Mind you, this is coming from a guy who thinks that unarmed swordsages can be pretty powerful and whole-heartedly believes that the Vitalist is the coolest class ever. High-OP stuff is definitely not my forte.

I have a feeling that this guy won't be going crazy with all those swordsage buffs. Wraithstrike is pretty cool, though.


Basically, a Swordsage is currently decent at combat with a bit of thinking and positioning and very decent at utility and noncombat encounters. An Arcane Swordsage can get a few powerful (when available at-will) spells to cover nearly every utility situation (Greater Mage Hand, one teleport maneuver, Ruby Ray of Reversal), and put the rest toward brute-force, high-damage buffs and combos and extremely potent crowd control effects that can be used half a dozen times in every encounter.

I would probably limit the character to no more than 1/3 of their maneuvers known (rounded down) being spells, and reserve the right to veto any spell's availability as a maneuver.

That seems fair, but honestly I don't know if encounter long buffs and mindblank-ing the whole party are really this player's style. He's trying to go for more of a 'kung fu/anime/some other third thing good-ol' battle blaster build. With that in mind, what type of spells do you think would be good choices for that kind of spell list? (as in, not gamebreaking nor underpowered)

STOP THE PRESSES! I've *gasp* discovered something!

So, it turns out that there is a expanded duskblade spell list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7805704&postcount=10) on the forums!

So, splicing Biffoniacus_Furiou's warblade/psychic warrior idea with this, and you'd end up with a possibly useable arcane swordsage!

I think that I'll use that list + the normal duskblade list + some thematic abilities and get back to you with what I come up with.

Thanks so much for all the help, guys!

[Klarth]

Some ground rules you might want to think about:
All active spell durations automatically expire when you refresh maneuvers

I like this and find it rather elegant. It prevents Time Stop shenanigans, as well as casting long term buffs and shuffling them out.

[Kymme]

Alright.

Here's the list. An Arcane Swordsage gains access to a new spell level at the same time a duskblade would. So, 1st at level 1, 2nd at level 5, 3rd at level 9, 4th at level 13, and 5th at level 17.
Lesser Deflect
Resist Energy
Kelgore’s Fire Bolt
Obscuring Mist
Stand
True Strike
Rouse
Bigby’s Tripping Hand
Burning Hands
Shocking Grasp
Color Spray
Blade of Blood
Cause Fear
Chill Touch
Ray of Enfeeblement
Expeditious Retreat
Jump
Magic Weapon
Swift Expeditious Retreat
Corrosive Grasp
Critical Strike
Deafening Clang
Fist of Stone
Ice Dagger
Lightfoot
Nerveskitter
Nightshield
Persistent Blade
Phantom Threat
Rhino’s Rush
Snowshoes
Deflect
Acid Arrow
Dimension Hop
See Invisibility
Sure Strike
Touch of Idiocy
Bigby’s Striking Fist
Scorching Ray
Seeking Ray
Invisibility
Swift Invisibility
Ghoul Touch
Animalistic Power
Bear’s Endurance
Bull’s Strength
Cat’s Grace
Owl’s Wisdom
Darkvision
Fly
Spider Climb
Stretch Weapon
Swift Fly
Battering Ram
Bladeweave
Body of the Sun
Bristle
Combust
Daggerspell Stance
Delusions of Grandeur
Fireburst
Flame Dagger
Infernal Wound
Ironthunder Horn
Mountain Stance
Rainbow Beam
Scorch
Shadow Spray
Weapon Shift
Wracking Touch
Dispelling Touch
Energy Aegis
Protection from Energy
Doom Scarabs
Regroup
Ray of Exhaustion
Vampiric Touch
Crown of Might
Crown of Protection
Energy Surge
Greater Magic Weapon
Halt
Keen Edge
Belker Claws
Body Blades
Clarity of Mind
Diamondsteel
Find the Gap
Knight's Move
Know Opponent
Moon Blade
Ring of Blades
Spectral Weapon
Spider Poison
Steeldance
Suppress Breath Weapon
Unluck
Whirling Blade

Orb of Fire
Orb of Cold
Orb of Sound
Orb of Electricity
Orb of Acid
Dispel Magic
Dimension Door
Toxic Weapon
Channeled Pyroburst
Fire Shield
Interposing Hand
Shout
Phantasmal Killer
Enervation
Bands of Steel
Blindsight
Displacer Form
Flame Whips
Forcewave
Frost Breath
Lion's Charge
Mind Poison
Vulnerability
Slashing Dispel
Hold Monster
Chain Lightning
Clenched Fist
Polar Ray
Sonic Shield
Waves of Fatigue
Disintegrate
Acid Sheath
Aura of Evasion
Charge of the Triceratops
Emerald Flame Fist
Greater Fireburst
Girallon’s Blessing
Ray Deflection
Translocation Trick
Transformation

Feel free to tell me if there are other spells that should be in there or spells that could be shifted a level up or down.

[Eldaran]

Here's some good rules on making an Arcane Swordsage. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187632-Arcane-Swordsage-Making-it-actually-work)