Favorite VoP fix/tweak?

[Coidzor]

So I've got a player who expressed interest in VoP, and rather than just re-invent the wheel by having to do my own fix, I wanted to see which fixes were well-regarded already. I'd also prefer something a bit more streamlined and newer player friendly than I would come up with(at least as a rough draft).

I remember there was someone's name being bandied about a fair bit as far as having an acceptable fix.

I've already incorporated part of Grod the Giant's Chopping Down the Christmas Tree (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357810-Chopping-Down-the-Christmas-Tree-Low-Magic-Item-Rules), especially with regards to ability scores and the circumstance bonus and eliminating or restricting the equivalent items ala that set of supplemental rules, largely to push more towards more interesting items and properties.

On a related note, any thoughts about the ramifications of allowing other feats, such as, for instance, Shifter([Shifter]?) feats as requested to be granted by VoP in place of the Bonus Exalted Feats?

What about the [Gift] and [Knack] feats introduced here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357810-Chopping-Down-the-Christmas-Tree-Low-Magic-Item-Rules)being allowed as an alternative to bonus exalted feats with the caveat being that VoP's bonus exalted feats were the only way to acquire them?

And if I do end up just trailblazing on my own, what do you believe something like Vow of Poverty should be?

Also, nixing Sacred Vow as a requirement: Yea or Nay? I've been leaning Yea, myself.

[ngilop]

I know most people go for drolyt's feat since its older

but I feel that Kenneth's VoP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12433473&postcount=15) is the best VoP by far
it fills more gaps, and has actual offensive goodies as well. plus it allows a spellbook, holy symbol and other items provided it is a minimal amount

the icing is, it gives some great things that no other VoP gives out.


if you make VoP a good feat to have that negates the need for items, then I feel that sacred vow as a per req is not so bad, VoP as it is written though yeah you can forgo sacred vow.

[Dread_Head]

On a related note, any thoughts about the ramifications of allowing other feats, such as, for instance, Shifter([Shifter]?) feats as requested to be granted by VoP in place of the Bonus Exalted Feats?


I think that would be fine as most of the exalted feats are pretty terrible (druid ones notwithstanding) and the Shifter feats are ok balance wise.

One simple idea I've been playing around with is to let anyone with VoP take Ancestral Relic and top that up with wealth before they give the rest away. This allows them to have at least one interesting weapon / runestaff / whatever.

[Jeff the Green]

On a related note, any thoughts about the ramifications of allowing other feats, such as, for instance, Shifter([Shifter]?) feats as requested to be granted by VoP in place of the Bonus Exalted Feats?

One I've seen that I like is Incarnum feats, refluffed as divine power rather than soul energy. It really helps cover your bases.

[Svata]

I, personally, like BelGareth's extension and revision of Drolyt's VOP. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16949396&postcount=15)

[TiaC]

I, personally, like BelGareth's extension and revision of Drolyt's VOP. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16949396&postcount=15)

I was liking this until I saw that it didn't allow flight before level 14. Levitate really isn't enough.

[Svata]

I was liking this until I saw that it didn't allow flight before level 14. Levitate really isn't enough.

It is a bit late, and the energy immunity at epic levels wasn't unbalancing, but other than that its pretty good.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I already made a quick response in the other thread, but basically, the bonuses from my houserules should be enough to compensate for all missing magic items. Low-tier classes might have a harder time coping, but that's always the case. The only thing you're really lacking is mundane equipment, which isn't much of a problem. Granting the Exalted bonus to AC should make up for not wearing armor, and Endure Elements and Sustenance are thematically fitting. Everything else is too redundant with the static bonuses my fix grants. If you're going to be passing out interesting magic items to the party, you might grant more bonus Knack/Gift feats, based on how many items you're using, but I wouldn't do much more than that.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

What about the [Gift] and [Knack] feats introduced here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357810-Chopping-Down-the-Christmas-Tree-Low-Magic-Item-Rules)being allowed as an alternative to bonus exalted feats with the caveat being that VoP's bonus exalted feats were the only way to acquire them?

Those feats strike me as really, massively overpowered. Getting eleven of those across twenty levels, plus all of the stat increases from VoP...

[Bakkan]

In my group we used a more major mechanical shift than most VoP fixes, it seemed good. It works when the person wanting VoP wants it more for flavor and for the non-removable benefits than for simplicity in mechanics. Basically, by taking the feat you can choose magic items and "imbue" them into yourself, gaining all the benefits of wearing that item. Combining multiple non-basic items in the same slot still costs extra money as per the DMG; however, the VoP character can do so however he wants, essentially being able to create his own custom combinations of existing items. He can add basic bonuses to himself as per the Magic Item Compendium and can enchant any of his natural weapons as if they were masterwork manufactured ones. In order to gain any of these benefits, the character must sacrifice 110% of the cost of the item in gold pieces or gems. Depending on the deity granting this ability, the gold might be donated to a local church, consumed in fire, thrown into the sea, taken up into the sky supernaturally, or any other way of removign the wealth from the character. Taking this feat does not prevent the character from owning items; if he wants to be in poverty, he can choose to do so by sacrificing his wealth and gaining appropriately-costed benefits.

[ddude987]

Maybe the VoP feat grants you some knack/gift feats in place of some of the exalted feats

[Grod_The_Giant]

Those feats strike me as really, massively overpowered. Getting eleven of those across twenty levels, plus all of the stat increases from VoP...
They're designed to take the place of magic items. They have to be powerful.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

They're designed to take the place of magic items. They have to be powerful.

One of them was just "Grow a size category." Seeing the hoops War Hulk/Trippers go through for any size increase... no, that's not more balanced/reasonable than magic items, that's even worse, and a lot of them were on that scale. Handing away eleven of those, on top of the bonuses VoP already provides, isn't "fixing" VoP - it's making it the only reasonable option for players.

But, past the balance issues... I don't like the basic idea of them.

For items that just increase stats, I'm all for replacing them with straight character abilities (extra attack bonus, stat increases, saves, maybe SR/DR, stuff like that.) I certainly like the idea of my psion just being really smart, rather than just happening to be wearing a magic necklace that makes him really smart. But, handing away magical abilities to mundane classes doesn't really make a lot of sense - if you want intrinsic magical features, play a magical class or be a member of a magical race. Or, hell... just buy a magic item. There are things they make sense for, and "Purchasing a tool to expand my abilities into something not mundanely possible" is a perfect example.

[icefractal]

But, handing away magical abilities to mundane classes doesn't really make a lot of sense - if you want intrinsic magical features, play a magical class or be a member of a magical race. Or, hell... just buy a magic item. There are things they make sense for, and "Purchasing a tool to expand my abilities into something not mundanely possible" is a perfect example.In which case, you're just saying that mundane classes aren't able to function without items. Which is a possible direction to go, but kind of off-topic for the subject of fixing VoP.

At some point, you need to be able to do stuff like fly, or teleport, or see invisible things. Otherwise you just lose against the monsters you're supposedly able to fight. That came come through items, or it can come through VoP, but "it doesn't happen at all" doesn't work.

[Jeff the Green]

One of them was just "Grow a size category." Seeing the hoops War Hulk/Trippers go through for any size increase... no, that's not more balanced/reasonable than magic items, that's even worse, and a lot of them were on that scale. Handing away eleven of those, on top of the bonuses VoP already provides, isn't "fixing" VoP - it's making it the only reasonable option for players.

But, past the balance issues... I don't like the basic idea of them.

For items that just increase stats, I'm all for replacing them with straight character abilities (extra attack bonus, stat increases, saves, maybe SR/DR, stuff like that.) I certainly like the idea of my psion just being really smart, rather than just happening to be wearing a magic necklace that makes him really smart. But, handing away magical abilities to mundane classes doesn't really make a lot of sense - if you want intrinsic magical features, play a magical class or be a member of a magical race. Or, hell... just buy a magic item. There are things they make sense for, and "Purchasing a tool to expand my abilities into something not mundanely possible" is a perfect example.

To start with, growing a size isn't hugely problematic. It's trivial for casters to do so, for instance. The only reason trippers and war hulks jump through hoops to do so is because they generally don't have spells or powers to accomplish it.

Second, sure, at low levels innate flight would be weird. But by the point you get it the barbarian can survive having thirteen greatswords run through his chest and the monk or crusader can get into various prestige classes that literally make arrows bounce off his pecs.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

In which case, you're just saying that mundane classes aren't able to function without items. Which is a possible direction to go, but kind of off-topic for the subject of fixing VoP.

At some point, you need to be able to do stuff like fly, or teleport, or see invisible things. Otherwise you just lose against the monsters you're supposedly able to fight. That came come through items, or it can come through VoP, but "it doesn't happen at all" doesn't work.

Define "Function without items."

I would say that a mundane fighter should be able to act effectively as a mundane fighter with nothing but a sharpened hunk of metal and maybe some armor - so, he shouldn't need his +X items in order to keep his AC, attack, armor and BAB above the line. Now... in order for him to function fighting flying invisible wizards, sure, he needs items.

Now, as far as this particular VoP fix goes... it wasn't mentioned in the thread, I don't think, but this particular character is a druid/swordsage gestalt anyway. So, he's already gonna be able to fly, etc.. I do agree that VoP by itself isn't viable for a mundane class as is, at least not without the assumption that there are friendly casters willing to provide magical support. My comments on "Giving magical abilities to mundanes" was more about the Gift/Knack feats in general, so I guess I'm guilty on the off-topic part. :smalltongue:

[Grod_The_Giant]

For items that just increase stats, I'm all for replacing them with straight character abilities (extra attack bonus, stat increases, saves, maybe SR/DR, stuff like that.) I certainly like the idea of my psion just being really smart, rather than just happening to be wearing a magic necklace that makes him really smart. But, handing away magical abilities to mundane classes doesn't really make a lot of sense - if you want intrinsic magical features, play a magical class or be a member of a magical race. Or, hell... just buy a magic item. There are things they make sense for, and "Purchasing a tool to expand my abilities into something not mundanely possible" is a perfect example.
My explanation for Gifts is that you did pick up a little bit of magic somewhere-- you learned a spell, found an old amulet, got a divine blessing, or were just hit by polymorph too many times and internalized a bit of the magic, instead of buying a magic item. But personal taste is personal. (though you could stick to Knacks, which are [Ex]).

In any case, further discussion of my system should probably be shifted over to that thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357810-Chopping-Down-the-Christmas-Tree-Low-Magic-Item-Rules), to avoid hijacking Coidzor's any further.

[Gavinfoxx]

I prefer this one:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4030.0

[StreamOfTheSky]

I prefer this one:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4030.0

Similar to mine (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?320057-Simple-%28hopefully%29-balanced-Vow-of-Poverty-Houserules!), and he posted about the same time as I did too. Freaky.