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Proven_Paradox
2007-02-28, 09:46 AM
Okay, so here's a build I've been thinking about running for a while now. Note as you read this that my book selection is limited to the Core three and the Complete series.

Basically, I'm wanting this character to actually take advantage of the halfling's bonus with throwing weapons. I start with a set of darts and a mace or something, taking quick draw at first level so that I can throw multiple darts later. I realise this is worthless at first level, but since he's starting at fifth it shouldn't be much of an issue. From there, I want to go down the standard two-weapon-fighting rogue build, but with the cleric levels and eventually divine trickster. This way, he's valuable in both ranged and melee combat, as well as a pretty good divine spellcaster to boot.

Anyway, here you go.

1st level - rogue 1: Sneak attack 1d6, trapfinding, Quick Draw (1st)
2nd level - rogue 1/cleric 1 (Olidammara): Turn undead, Trickery Domain, Luck Domain, 1st level cleric spells
3rd level - rogue 2/cleric 1: Evasion, Weapon Finesse (3rd)
4th level - rogue 2/cleric 2:
5th level - rogue 3/cleric 2: Sneak Attack 2d6, trap sense 1
6th level - rogue 3/cleric 3: 2nd level cleric spells, Two Weapon Fighting (6th)
7th level - rogue 3/cleric 3/divine trickster 1: Surprise for the Dead
8th level - rogue 3/cleric 3/divine trickster 2: Sneak attack 3d6, 3rd level cleric spells
9th level - rogue 3/cleric 3/divine trickster 3: Trap Guidance, Silent Spell (9th)
10th level - rogue 3/cleric 3/divine trickster 4: Sneak attack 4d6, 4th level cleric spells
11th level - rogue 3/cleric 3/divine trickster 5: Domain Flexibility
12th level - rogue 3/cleric 3/divine trickster 6: Sneak attack 5d6, 5th level cleric spells, Improved Two Weapon Fighting (12th)
13th level - rogue 3/cleric 3/divine trickster 7: Hide in Plain Sight
14th level - rogue 3/cleric 3/divine trickster 8: Sneak attack 6d6, 6th level cleric spells
15th level - rogue 3/cleric 3/divine trickster 9: Slippery Mind, Greater Two Weapon Fighting (15th)
16th level - rogue 3/cleric 3/divine trickster 10: Sneak attack 7d6, 7th level cleric spells

I doubt he'll actually get this far, but for the remainder I'd probably take cleric levels to get to 9th level spells. I'll think more on this part when/if he gets there.

So, yeah. What do you guys think? The first thing that jumps out at me is a slight case of MAD (Dex, wis, int, and cha sorta) other than that I think he'll be a pretty good, versitile character. I was considering going with CAdv ninja instead of rogue, since the wis to AC bonus would synergize well with divine trickster. That costs me evasion, though, and that would make me sad.

Edit: I knew I had forgotten something... Added Silent Spell.

cupkeyk
2007-02-28, 08:17 PM
Instead of pursuing Rogue, considering filling up the Sneak attack qualifications with Skullclan hunter from miniatures handbook. So it will be Rog1, Cleric4, Scullclan Hunter1, then Divine Trickster all the way.

Quietus
2007-02-28, 10:16 PM
Slight problem - Quick Draw requires base attack bonus +1, and neither cleric nor rogue grants that at level 1. It might be a better idea to get Silent Spell at level 1, followed by whichever is more important, Quick Draw or Weapon Finesse, and pick up the last at level 6.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-28, 11:40 PM
You can probably scrape by with Int and Cha about 13-14. You'll get a plethora of skill points from rogue and DTr, and Wis is more important here for your casting. Dex is good, especially if you plan to go throwing style.

Proven_Paradox
2007-03-01, 12:30 PM
Cupkeyk - I don't have that book, and I've never heard of that class. I'll keep it in mind for later builds and if I ever get a hold of that book, but that's just not an option right now.

Quietus - Good catch, I had completely forgotten about that. The problem with your fix is that Silent Spell requires the ability to cast level 1 spells, I think. There's no way in hell I'm going to go cleric at first level; I cannot afford the loss of skill points. Still, I'll talk to my DM: I think he'll be okay with lowering the prereqs for Quick Draw.

Fax: Divine Trickster only gets four skill points per level. I'm willing to take that for the sake of full sneak attack and caster progression in addition to Domain Flexibility and Hide in Plain Sight, but that's still low... I wouldn't even consider going at that with less than 14 INT. Which I've gotten (along with 14 CHA) so in the end it's not really an issue. I have to deal with 8 STR, but my damage isn't going to come directly anyway.

Quietus
2007-03-01, 12:59 PM
I'd talk to him about Weapon Finesse, instead. It makes more sense to me that weapon finesse would lose its +1 BAB requirement than Quick Draw would, when you also consider that Quick Draw is already emulated in the ability to, if you have a +1 BAB, draw a weapon while moving as a part of that action. Plus, weapon finesse will see more use in low levels than quick draw would.

Person_Man
2007-03-01, 01:56 PM
Divine Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/Func0015.html) is definitely a strong PrC, too powerful, IMO.

Instead of Rogue 3, you could use Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1) 3 or Dread Commando (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050407b&page=6) 3 or variant Fighter (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#fighter) 3.

But I think plain Rogue 3 is your best option, because Evasion is just too useful to give up.

Proven_Paradox
2007-03-01, 02:19 PM
Quietus: I've already talked to him, and he's cool with me taking Quick Draw at level 1. Since I'm starting at level five, it's not that big a deal that it wouldn't be as useful as level one Weapon Finesse.

Person Man: I'd put Divine Trickster on about the same level as the Arcane Trickster, myself. The arcane caster classes synergise with rogue so much better than cleric does, and Divine Trickster, as I mentioned in my first post, has a case of MAD that the Arcane Trickster doesn't have to worry about.

Person_Man
2007-03-01, 03:20 PM
Person Man: I'd put Divine Trickster on about the same level as the Arcane Trickster, myself. The arcane caster classes synergise with rogue so much better than cleric does, and Divine Trickster, as I mentioned in my first post, has a case of MAD that the Arcane Trickster doesn't have to worry about.

I disagree.

Arcane Trickster: Requires 3rd level spells to get into, has d4 hit points per level, Arcane Spell Failure problems if they wear armor, modestly useful special abilities, superior spell list.

Divine Trickster: Requires 2nd level spells to get into, has d6 hit points per level, can wear full armor, gets wildly useful special abilities (Surprise the Dead, Trap Guidance, Domain Spontaneity, Hide in Plain Site, Slippery Mind), good spell list.

As far as MAD goes:

Str: 12-14: Enough to carry your armor.
Dex: 10-14: Since you're wearing full armor, you only need to have a modest good Dex. A higher bonus to your Dex Skills would be nice, but is mathematically not very important at higher levels.
Con: Highest Stat
Int: 12-14: Enough to gain bonus Skill points, but not really critical.
Wis: 16-18: Enough to cast your spells, will eventually have to be raised to 19.
Cha: 10: Enough to avoid a penalty. There are a ton of magic items/domains/feats that grant extra Turn uses. You can also cast Eagle's Splendor to gain more.

So, Str 12, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 10 doesn't seem like MAD to me. Higher Int for more Skills would be nice, but its not required. You just have to focus on 6ish Skills that are really important to you. Buy Celestial Armor or Clockwork Armor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070212a), and maybe enchant them with Shadow or Silent Moves.

If you're worried about your spell list, go buy the Spell Compendium. Trust me, you won't be worried about the Cleric spell list after reading it for ten minutes.

Proven_Paradox
2007-03-01, 04:06 PM
Full armor? With that armor check penalty you'd be completely unable to do anything requiring stealth, which is something a rogue is typically expected to be able to handle. Medium or heavier armor also takes away evasion. If I wasn't worried about that I'd go ninja instead of rogue. Without armor comes a need for high dex, not to mention dex high enough to qualify for the TWF feats the build I want to run uses. Combine that with a need for high wisdom for spellcasting, high intelligence for skill points (and at just six per level, I really can't do everything I want to be able to do very well) and at least decent charisma for class features, and I say you've got a moderate case of MAD. Not nearly as bad as a monk, sure, but still worse than the dex/int and nothing else of the Arcane Trickster.

You're thinking purely in a fight, I think. With the exception of the Arcane Trickster's improptu sneak attack, yes, the Divine Trickster beats the Arcane Trickster in combat. That's not the only role I have to fill, and the Arcane Trickster is decidely better at non-combat roles with Ranged Legerman, more skill points (from an inevitably higher intelligence), and the fact that the wizard spell list works better for rogues than the cleric list. Again, I've only got the books mentioned before to work with, and stuff mentioned in other books isn't going to factor into my reasoning at all right now.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-01, 04:09 PM
You know, the Ninja might be a better choice for this than Rogue. Sure you get SS instead of SA, but you also get Wis synergy.

Proven_Paradox
2007-03-01, 04:10 PM
I considered that, but then I don't get Evasion. I value Evasion higher than the wisdom synergy, myself.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-01, 04:12 PM
Makes sense to me.

Person_Man
2007-03-01, 04:51 PM
Full armor? With that armor check penalty you'd be completely unable to do anything requiring stealth, which is something a rogue is typically expected to be able to handle.

Celestial Armor grants +8 AC, counts as light armor, and has a -2 Armor Check Penalty. It's in the SRD.

Clockwork Armor is heavy armor, but has 0 Armor Check Penalty and it gives you a +4 bonus to Str and Dex. It's online.

Mithral Breast Plate has a -1 Armor Check Penalty and counts as light armor.

Mithral Full Plate has a -3 Armor Check Penalty. Bad, but certainly not crippling.

Any of these armors will give you a pretty good bonus to AC. You can also buy a Mithral Animated Shield to improve your AC, also in the SRD.

So you really don't need a high Dex. And wearing Celestial Armor or a Mithral Breast Plate will only have a minor effect on your Dex Skills, and no effect on Evasion.


You're thinking purely in a fight, I think. With the exception of the Arcane Trickster's improptu sneak attack, yes, the Divine Trickster beats the Arcane Trickster in combat. That's not the only role I have to fill, and the Arcane Trickster is decidely better at non-combat roles with Ranged Legerman, more skill points (from an inevitably higher intelligence), and the fact that the wizard spell list works better for rogues than the cleric list. Again, I've only got the books mentioned before to work with, and stuff mentioned in other books isn't going to factor into my reasoning at all right now.

Impromptu Sneak Attack only applies to one attack, and can only be used a limited number of times per day. So its a pretty minor benefit.

Ranged Legerdemain can only be used a limited number of times per day, and a Divine Trickster doesn't need it, because they can Hide in Plain Site.

And the lower spellcasting requirements mean that you get into the class as a Rogue 3/Cleric 3, which means you pick up more Skill Points/Sneak Attack/Special abilities then an Arcane Trickster, who must get to Rogue 3/Wizard 5 before they can enter.

But I'm really not sure why we're arguing with this, since obviously your DM has approved your use of the powerful Divine Prankster.

You don't need a high Charisma. Your Turn Undead ability is going to suck, because you don't have a lot of class levels in Cleric. You simply need Turn Undead uses to fuel Surprise the Dead. Even with Cha 10, you get 3 Turn Undead uses. Cast Eagle's Splendor to gain 2 more. Take the Extra Turning feat if you need 4 more, or just go buy Nightsticks (Libris Mortis).

Also, each additional 2 points of Int lets you max out 1 additional Skill, so there's really not that huge a difference between Int 14 and Int 18 for this build. Even then, stats around Str 12 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 18 Wis 18 Cha 10 seems pretty reasonable.

ghost_warlock
2007-03-02, 06:08 AM
This build already lets you sneak attack undead, by sacrificing turn undead uses, but you might also want to consider the Razing Strike feat from Complete Adventurer.

It would also allow you to pseudo-sneak attack undead, but sacrificing spell slots rather than turn undead attempts (damage = normal S.A. damage + 1d6/spell level sacrificed). Your number of low-level spell slots would likely be much greater than your number of turn undead attempts, thus you could conserve the t.u. for other things.

Speaking of which, I know you're probably into the 2-weapon fighting stuff, but I'd suggest that a few other feats may be more mechanincally efficient or more fun, even if you're not the primary healer. Each is a spend 1-2 turn attempts to do something cool:

* Divine Ward from Player's Handbook II. For 24 hours you can cast touch-range spells on one person at close-range. You can ward multiple people at once, thus allowing you to heal or buff your companions from range.
* Sacred Healing from Player's Handbook II. +2 bonus/die on damage healed by conjuration (healing) spells. Also a prerequsite for Sacred Purification.
* Sacred Purification from Player's Handbook II. Create a burst of positive energy, healing all living creatures and damaging all undead w/in 60 ft. It doesn't heal/deal a lot, but it's got a good AoE and it's healing your allies and damaging your enemies at the same time.
* Disciple of the Sun from Complete Divine. Destroys undead you would normally turn.
* Divine Metamagic form Complete Divine. Worth a mention, even if some players use it to cheese. When used responsibly, this is still a nice feat (use turn attempts to compensate for increased spell level when using metamagic). The only metamagic feat I saw listed in your progression was Silent Spell so I doubt you'd have a problem with abusing this feat.
* Sacred Boost from Complete Divine. Creates an aura of positive energy lasting a round. Any cure spell cast during this time is automatically maximized without increasing the spell level.
* Sacred Vitality from Libris Mortis. Gain immunity to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain for 1 minute.
* Sacred Vengeance from Libris Mortis. Adds 2d6 damage on all your attacks against undead until the end of the round.
* Spurn Death's Touch from Libris Mortis. Heal ability damage, paralysis, or a negative level caused by an undead (allows you to conserve spell slots you'd normally use for those things).

Proven_Paradox
2007-03-02, 01:34 PM
Hrm... A large part of the way this build is there for style purposes, actually. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be the primary healer for my party, and it's more likely that this character will fill primarily a buffing roll along with the standard rogue-y stuff. After all, a lot of the useful buffs I can get with second level spells. Long story short, I'm probably not going to do much with the healing feats you mentioned. I miiiiiight look into Divine Ward, for the aid in buffing that might come from it, but other than that I'm probably going to stick with the TWF tree.

Also, I will never touch Divine Metamagic. Once I put that and Persistant spell together in my head I found myself suddenly a bit ill...