How much of an adjustment should a "Dragon Companion" feat be worth?

[gorilla-turtle]

The last of the threads I need to make tonight, for the sake of a friend. Currently, there exists no way to gain a Half-Dragon as an Animal Companion. A few alternatives do fill this void as of now.

However, a friend wishes to be able to take a feat to gain such a companion. I am not sure how much of an adjustment such a feat should be worth. Eyeballing it, the Exalted Companion feat imposes a penalty of 1 to the effective level of a companion for the sake of the Celestial Creature Template. Given that the Half-Dragon template gains wings and increased damage on attacks for being Large or bigger, as opposed to medium or smaller, I was going to settle on a penalty of 1 if Medium or smaller, and a penalty of 2 if Large or bigger. I would also impose the Half-Dragon match the alignment of the character in question, though this may limit the types of Half-Dragons available.

How reasonable, broken, or unreasonable does this sound?

[jiriku]

It would depend on the level of the character. If the druid is high-level, say 12th or higher, then the animal companion is not such a significant class feature and the half-dragon template simply makes it more survivable and relevant. At that level I'd say the cost of the feat is sufficient and grant the template with no reduction in effective druid level.

At lower levels, especially when Large creatures are just becoming available, the +8 Strength and fly speed are significant advantages, and a penalty as large as -3 might even be appropriate. However, for Medium and smaller creatures that do not receive flight, the template offers less value.

Perhaps a good compromise would be a penalty of -3, to be reduced by 1 if the creature does not receive flight and to be further reduced by 1 point per four druid levels (minimum 0, naturally).

Requiring an alignment match will significantly change the flavor of the feat since most druids and neutral and most dragons (excepting psionic dragons) are not. I'd tend to either judge that the animal companion's neutral alignment overrides the template in this case (although tendencies would remain), or that the animal simply has a different moral and ethical outlook from the druid but is willing to follow orders nonetheless.

[Red Fel]

The last of the threads I need to make tonight, for the sake of a friend. Currently, there exists no way to gain a Half-Dragon as an Animal Companion. A few alternatives do fill this void as of now.

However, a friend wishes to be able to take a feat to gain such a companion. I am not sure how much of an adjustment such a feat should be worth. Eyeballing it, the Exalted Companion feat imposes a penalty of 1 to the effective level of a companion for the sake of the Celestial Creature Template. Given that the Half-Dragon template gains wings and increased damage on attacks for being Large or bigger, as opposed to medium or smaller, I was going to settle on a penalty of 1 if Medium or smaller, and a penalty of 2 if Large or bigger. I would also impose the Half-Dragon match the alignment of the character in question, though this may limit the types of Half-Dragons available.

How reasonable, broken, or unreasonable does this sound?

The problem I see is: A Half-Dragon what? Half-Dragon is a race, not a template; it must be placed upon a base race. And, as often observed on these boards, an animal companion cannot generally be templated or advanced (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070206a):
To begin, you must first locate the kind of creature you desire. The prospective companion cannot be an advanced animal, nor can it be another character's animal companion or another character's familiar. It also can't have a template, even if that template doesn't change its type. Awakened animals can never serve as animal companions.

The Exalted Companion feat is a specific exception to the general rule. Even as an exception, it offers you a Celestial version of an animal at a pronounced level reduction, along with a narrow list of magical beasts.

Remember, a Half-Dragon doesn't qualify as an animal companion for several reasons. Its type is dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm), not animal. It is not on the Druid animal companion list, nor on the expanded lists offered by feats such as Exalted Companion. From a balance perspective, it is immediately more powerful than almost any animal companion.
So, on to your direct question. I wouldn't call it broken, but I would call it poorly-defined and substantially more powerful than many current feats or abilities.

My advice is, if you really want to go with it, to produce a very narrow list of half-dragon creatures, all animal base, all with a high LA. Since the base adjustment of the Half-Celestial template is -4, and they call it a -1 adjustment for animal companions, I would give your animal companion a similar base of -1, more for higher-CR creatures. I would also implement additional restrictions. I would create a narrow and exclusive list of animals - that is, creatures with the Animal type - from which the player could choose. Alternatively, I would use the existing Druid list alone, simply adding Half-Dragon onto the creature, and add a -1 to the level of the relevant animal. For example, a normal Druid can take a Dog as an animal companion; a Half-Dragon Dog would be Druid -1. A 7th-level Druid can take a Lion as -6; a Half-Dragon Lion would be -7 instead. And so on.

Note, however, the awkwardness of the concept - an animal companion isn't a conjured or summoned creature. It's something encountered in the wild. In essence, your Druid has a habit of encountering things whose parents did the disturbing with a dragon. Your Druid is officially a magnet for freaky.

[gorilla-turtle]

It would depend on the level of the character. If the druid is high-level, say 12th or higher, then the animal companion is not such a significant class feature and the half-dragon template simply makes it more survivable and relevant. At that level I'd say the cost of the feat is sufficient and grant the template with no reduction in effective druid level.

At lower levels, especially when Large creatures are just becoming available, the +8 Strength and fly speed are significant advantages, and a penalty as large as -3 might even be appropriate. However, for Medium and smaller creatures that do not receive flight, the template offers less value.

Perhaps a good compromise would be a penalty of -3, to be reduced by 1 if the creature does not receive flight and to be further reduced by 1 point per four druid levels (minimum 0, naturally).

Requiring an alignment match will significantly change the flavor of the feat since most druids and neutral and most dragons (excepting psionic dragons) are not. I'd tend to either judge that the animal companion's neutral alignment overrides the template in this case (although tendencies would remain), or that the animal simply has a different moral and ethical outlook from the druid but is willing to follow orders nonetheless.

I am not entirely certain on how I feel with the penalty for the template reducing over time, given that the animal companion itself grows in power over time, and the template could be payed off, even at -3, with a single additional feat. To offset this, maybe the feat could have an additional minimum character level requirement to meet, instead.

I also forgot that a Druid, the main beneficiary to this feat, requires at least one neutral component to his alignment. A brief scan in core shows that no Dragon would be able to directly share outlooks with a Druid, at best being able to match her in terms of morality. Though, as you mention, this is not impossible to work around.


The problem I see is: A Half-Dragon what? Half-Dragon is a race, not a template; it must be placed upon a base race.

The Exalted Companion feat is a specific exception to the general rule. Even as an exception, it offers you a Celestial version of an animal at a pronounced level reduction, along with a narrow list of magical beasts.

Remember, a Half-Dragon doesn't qualify as an animal companion for several reasons.

Its type is dragon, not animal.
It is not on the Druid animal companion list, nor on the expanded lists offered by feats such as Exalted Companion.
From a balance perspective, it is immediately more powerful than almost any animal companion.


So, on to your direct question. I wouldn't call it broken, but I would call it poorly-defined and substantially more powerful than many current feats or abilities.

My advice is, if you really want to go with it, to produce a very narrow list of half-dragon creatures, all animal base, all with a high LA. Since the base adjustment of the Half-Celestial template is -4, and they call it a -1 adjustment for animal companions, I would give your animal companion a similar base of -1, more for higher-CR creatures. I would also implement additional restrictions. I would create a narrow and exclusive list of animals - that is, creatures with the Animal type - from which the player could choose. Alternatively, I would use the existing Druid list alone, simply adding Half-Dragon onto the creature, and add a -1 to the level of the relevant animal. For example, a normal Druid can take a Dog as an animal companion; a Half-Dragon Dog would be Druid -1. A 7th-level Druid can take a Lion as -6; a Half-Dragon Lion would be -7 instead. And so on.

Note, however, the awkwardness of the concept - an animal companion isn't a conjured or summoned creature. It's something encountered in the wild. In essence, your Druid has a habit of encountering things whose parents did the disturbing with a dragon. Your Druid is officially a magnet for freaky.

The SRD states that a Half-Dragon is a template. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) Was this a misprint? If not, I see no reason mechanically why one could not create a Half Dragon, though I understand that, baring something like a feat that might allow it, such a thing is not legal in the base game as an animal companion.


"Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

I understand that the Celestial Tempate provided by the Exalted Companion feat is the exception to the rule. That is why I was basing my comparison on it, while trying to figure the relative power difference between the two templates each feat provide to determine what a fair price in reduction would be to use it. I was fully intending to allow this feat to provided a Half-Dragon version of an animal at a level reduction, though I had not considered other dragon based magical beasts to also be added, mostly because the prospective player merely wanted a Half-Dragon.

One nitpick: The Exalted Companion feat provides the Celestial Template, not the Half-Celestial Template, which is stronger and more expensive. I breached the subject of the Draconic Template, rather than the more expensive and more powerful Half-Dragon Template, but was rebuffed, on the grounds of "It's not a real dragon if it's not providing burning death from above!". The comparison should be between the Celestial Template and Half-Dragon Template. That aside, using the Druid list, along with an additional adjustment, is what I was considering, baring an extra level of adjustment if the base creature was large, due to at least the flight on top of all of the additional abilities it allows.

And let us be entirely honest; a Half-Dragon Animal is hardly the weirdest thing a player would encounter in even the average game. I would bet many monsters, even in core, would be more strange than this. Additionally, a Half-Dragon of a reptilian animal would not be so strange. In a world where the dead coming back to life is a regular occurence, both through revival and through undead monstrocities,

[Red Fel]

The SRD states that a Half-Dragon is a template. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) Was this a misprint? If not, I see no reason mechanically why one could not create a Half Dragon, though I understand that, baring something like a feat that might allow it, such a thing is not legal in the base game as an animal companion.

WHOOPS! Yeah, that was a massive typo on my part, I meant to say "Half-Dragon is a template, not a race."

And here I thought I'd proofed that post. D'oh!


One nitpick: The Exalted Companion feat provides the Celestial Template, not the Half-Celestial Template, which is stronger and more expensive. I breached the subject of the Draconic Template, rather than the more expensive and more powerful Half-Dragon Template, but was rebuffed, on the grounds of "It's not a real dragon if it's not providing burning death from above!". The comparison should be between the Celestial Template and Half-Dragon Template. That aside, using the Druid list, along with an additional adjustment, is what I was considering, baring an extra level of adjustment if the base creature was large, due to at least the flight on top of all of the additional abilities it allows.

Point. Exalted Companion grants the Celestial Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm) template, which is ordinarily LA +2 and indicates a creature native to the Good-aligned planes, and not the Half-Celestial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfCelestial.htm) template, which is LA +4 and represents the delightful and not-at-all-disturbing offspring of an angel and a bear. Frankly, the Celestial template is a manageable one; it grants a 1/day Smite attack, darkvision, DR, SR, and some resistances. Reasonable. It makes an ordinary creature a bit more durable than usual, and gives it a once-daily boost to damage.

By contrast, the Half-Dragon template grants an HD size increase, flight, natural armor, natural weapons, a breath weapon, darkvision and low-light vision, immunities, and ability score increases. It takes an ordinary creature and gives it a massive surge of power and utility. Your kitty is now weaponized. An increased adjustment is most certainly justified in this instance.


And let us be entirely honest; a Half-Dragon Animal is hardly the weirdest thing a player would encounter in even the average game. I would bet many monsters, even in core, would be more strange than this. Additionally, a Half-Dragon of a reptilian animal would not be so strange. In a world where the dead coming back to life is a regular occurence, both through revival and through undead monstrocities,

Honestly, I think finding a Celestial Animal should be easier than finding a Half-Dragon. A Celestial Animal is simply the equivalent of that animal, but native to a Good-aligned plane and infused with its magic. With the prevalence of summoning spells and magic portals, a Celestial Dog finding its way onto the Material Plane is hardly inconceivable.

A Half-Dragon Animal is an Animal, born from the terrifying union of a perfectly ordinary Animal and a Dragon. Seriously, the mind boggles. And then cringes. And then drinks bleach.

In any event, I don't like the player's attitude. (The "Burning death from above" comment.) You're being very generous - more than you need to be - by offering to grant a draconic animal companion. At this point, the player should be willing to compromise with you. The player could just as easily take a feat like Dragon Cohort (Draconomicon), and get a cohort rather than an animal companion, if all he wants is something that rains fiery death.

Alternatively, there is another option. Take a class that grants a familiar, or combines the animal companion with a familiar (such as Arcane Hierophant (RotW)). Next, take the Dragon Familiar feat (Draconomicon). Bam, your familiar/animal companion is now a Wyrmling Dragon.

Nobody said you had to make something like this easy. Causing it to require more than a single feat isn't uncalled-for.

[gorilla-turtle]

WHOOPS! Yeah, that was a massive typo on my part, I meant to say "Half-Dragon is a template, not a race."

And here I thought I'd proofed that post. D'oh!

Point. Exalted Companion grants the Celestial Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm) template, which is ordinarily LA +2 and indicates a creature native to the Good-aligned planes, and not the Half-Celestial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfCelestial.htm) template, which is LA +4 and represents the delightful and not-at-all-disturbing offspring of an angel and a bear. Frankly, the Celestial template is a manageable one; it grants a 1/day Smite attack, darkvision, DR, SR, and some resistances. Reasonable. It makes an ordinary creature a bit more durable than usual, and gives it a once-daily boost to damage.

By contrast, the Half-Dragon template grants an HD size increase, flight, natural armor, natural weapons, a breath weapon, darkvision and low-light vision, immunities, and ability score increases. It takes an ordinary creature and gives it a massive surge of power and utility. Your kitty is now weaponized. An increased adjustment is most certainly justified in this instance.

Honestly, I think finding a Celestial Animal should be easier than finding a Half-Dragon. A Celestial Animal is simply the equivalent of that animal, but native to a Good-aligned plane and infused with its magic. With the prevalence of summoning spells and magic portals, a Celestial Dog finding its way onto the Material Plane is hardly inconceivable.

A Half-Dragon Animal is an Animal, born from the terrifying union of a perfectly ordinary Animal and a Dragon. Seriously, the mind boggles. And then cringes. And then drinks bleach.

In any event, I don't like the player's attitude. (The "Burning death from above" comment.) You're being very generous - more than you need to be - by offering to grant a draconic animal companion. At this point, the player should be willing to compromise with you. The player could just as easily take a feat like Dragon Cohort (Draconomicon), and get a cohort rather than an animal companion, if all he wants is something that rains fiery death.

Alternatively, there is another option. Take a class that grants a familiar, or combines the animal companion with a familiar (such as Arcane Hierophant (RotW)). Next, take the Dragon Familiar feat (Draconomicon). Bam, your familiar/animal companion is now a Wyrmling Dragon.

Nobody said you had to make something like this easy. Causing it to require more than a single feat isn't uncalled-for.

Then we are on a similar line of thought, then: My intent is to determine how much level adjustment, along with a feat, would be worth applying the Half Dragon Template to an Animal Companion.

In my initial discussion with the player in question, he himself brought up such differences, though the context behind each template was never brought up. When I asked him about it, to quote him, "A Wizard makes a Owlbear by BOMFing it with magic, right? Maybe a Solar decides to BOMF a bear with a lot of light and then throws it at some demon. Makes as much sense as anything else D&D's laws of nature allows.". Admittedly, the fridge horror of the actual given justification for a Half Dragon is mildly abated: he seeks to place the template on a Giant Crocodile, which sounds no more terrifying than a Lion with a Tiger.

What was seriously talked about was indeed the differences between the Half Type Templates and the Type templates. And what was decided would be that the juxtaposition between the the templates could be used to successfully determine how much the one in question should be worth. From my own reconing, the Draconic Template would be worth a feat alone, using the Celestial Template being worth a feat and a one level reduction for the sake of the abilities of the Animal Companion as a baseline. Mean while, Half Dragon is no less than worth a feat and two levels, potentially three, though I doubt it would be worth too much more. I am not sure how a Half Dragon Crocodile would be against, say, a Mega Raptor or an Orca. If favorably, then against an Elephant or a Dire Bear? I only assume the higher adjustment creatures would win due to more hit dice and better attack and saves, but I have yet to actually do the calculations.

The biggest issue in using an actual Dragon would be how intelligent they are; I believe he was more interested in a companion, rather than an additional supporting character to his own. I should consider reminding him of the differences in sizes of Dragons based on the age of the Dragon, though. I doubt he knew or knows that a Very Young Gold Dragon is Large Sized, and thus would fit most of his qualifications easily. Interestingly enough, such a Dragon would be gainable as a 13th level cohort... I wonder if that might be a factor in the worth of the feat.

Though, you may have interpreted his remark far more negatively than you may have needed to, or at least more than I felt the need to. He is crude merely by nature, but is not a problematic person, or I would not deal with him at all. I believe he merely wanted the style of such a creature, and would be willing to pay a fair cost to do so, and while the Draconic Template would easily be cheaper, it would not provide the rest of the abilities saught (flight transportation and a breath weapon).

Unfortunately, normally no Wyrmling is large enough to act as a ride, and additionally, and more prohibitably normally, Familiars cost GP. The character in question is a mid level Vow of Poverty Non Wildshaping Druid. A Dragon based companion was more to be considered as a thematic reward option for a set of dragon related adventures the character had recently under taken (standard defeating of a powerful Chromatic Dragon).

I would make things more complicated for the player in question, but, to explain a little bit, the player is not only a long time friend, but recently has only been able to play when I visit him in the hospital. I feel no need to make his life more frustrating.

[Urpriest]

Is the goal thematic, or mechanical? IIRC there are several Dragonblood animals that qualify as animal companions in Dragon Magic, and several look very much like the classical Dragons.

[jiriku]

There are a considerable number of neutral or partly neutral dragons outside of core. However, if you're running a core-only game there's plenty there to work with.

If you're inclined to be conservative, I'd say throw it at him for a -3 effective druid level adjustment, then. He can always take Natural Bond as his next available feat to eliminate the penalty. Boom, done.

Also, you should totally throw him a dungeon full of hospital-themed monsters that he can gnash and chomp to bits. Dire bear smash against the Hospital Bed Golem!

[awa]

-3 looks about right if it has wings. The hit die increase is offset by the lower number of hit dice. In general it looks like the half dragon is slightly better but you paid for that with a feat.

[gorilla-turtle]

Is the goal thematic, or mechanical? IIRC there are several Dragonblood animals that qualify as animal companions in Dragon Magic, and several look very much like the classical Dragons.

Both, borderline thematic. In his own words when the subject came about: "It'd be nice to have just the personal companion to help cut through the [enemies] when they don't matter, and [really] awesome to trust to handle the small fry while I get the big fish." He actually has not used the Animal Companion option yet, though he seems to have changed his mind.

A Dragon companion seems to be more for style than anything else, though. Otherwise, he probably would have already picked another companion, since the encounters have yet to significantly challenge him enough to make him truly need the extra support.


There are a considerable number of neutral or partly neutral dragons outside of core. However, if you're running a core-only game there's plenty there to work with.

If you're inclined to be conservative, I'd say throw it at him for a -3 effective druid level adjustment, then. He can always take Natural Bond as his next available feat to eliminate the penalty. Boom, done.

Also, you should totally throw him a dungeon full of hospital-themed monsters that he can gnash and chomp to bits. Dire bear smash against the Hospital Bed Golem!

While I would be interested in hearing the out of core options for Dragons (anything, up to and including homebrew and Dragon Magazine should be approved on a case by case basis, since the game has balance issues coming out of the box), I imagine, at the very least, a Half-Dragon Companion must either be a Half-Chromatic or Half-Metallic, matching your Good/Evil alignment.

And a pair of feats sounds reasonable for this advantage. While I doubt someone like him would mind a tongue in cheek game, he seems to be relatively happy now. The stereotypical "smash undead, smash evil creatures" scenarios seem to work just fine.


-3 looks about right if it has wings. The hit die increase is offset by the lower number of hit dice. In general it looks like the half dragon is slightly better but you paid for that with a feat.

That seems to be the general consensus. In core especially, it looks like a stronger option, but when branching out to alternative options, I would bet that it would have decent competition.

[Vhaidara]

Actually, with regards to dragon types, MM2 presented Gem dragons, which are all LN, N, or CN, and the Draconomicon has a lot more dragons, with rules for their half-dragon counterparts, that also run the full spate of alignments.

Oh, and if they expect it to be using the breath weapon very much, they're going to be disappointed, since it's 1/day.

And as far as how Half-Celestial animals happen, I blame Guardianals, which are the NG animal-person celestials.

[gorilla-turtle]

Actually, with regards to dragon types, MM2 presented Gem dragons, which are all LN, N, or CN, and the Draconomicon has a lot more dragons, with rules for their half-dragon counterparts, that also run the full spate of alignments.

Oh, and if they expect it to be using the breath weapon very much, they're going to be disappointed, since it's 1/day.

And as far as how Half-Celestial animals happen, I blame Guardianals, which are the NG animal-person celestials.

Indeed; the alignment requirement becomes much more reasonable when factoring in the wider variety of dragons provided by draconomicon. I believe I will be leaving it in; he will still have options for whatever his creature of choice will be.

I believe there is actually already a feat that enables more use of a breath weapon.

I wonder how much of the origin of the various odd species was intended to be left nebulous for the sake of our customization, and how much it was simply passed over by Wizards of the Coast.

[kalasulmar]

The Fighter/Cavalier in my Pathfinder party has a half-dragon/ half-horse mount. I left it as-is to help with the power level issue.