Melee Style Paladin - Advanced guidance needed

[abadguy]

Hello Playgrounders! After close to ten years of d20 3.0, 3.5 and Modern, we're finally dipping our toes into Pathfinder, huzzah!

Party of four consists of a Wizard, Druid, Ranger and me as a Paladin

We're only using the Core Rulebook so nothing from the other splat books (APG, ARG etc.).
I've read through several guides out there but would like to hear from Playgrounders' personal experience
We're starting at Lv 4, Paladins get to use 32 pt buy (under the old 3.5 rules)

My questions are:
1) Combat style
It's basically a toss up between a Lockdown type build (lite version of the TOB Crusader) with Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip etc.
And a raw melee damage build: Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush etc.

Which is generally more useful for levels 4-10?

2) Skills
What do? Is Diplomacy really that useful? My take is that Perception seems to be very necessary from an adventuring POV. What would you recommend to max, assuming I have 3 skill ranks each level (1 from class, 1 from human, 1 from favoured class)

3) Equipment
13k to spend: should I blow most of it on a mithral full plate+1?
Any must haves or items that will be useful throughout early levels?

[Arutema]

Lockdown builds tend to fall apart fairly quickly in PF due to Bestiary creatures' CMD scaling way faster than a PC can keep up with CMB, even with heavy feat taxes. It's also feat-heavy to even get started, whereas melee damage optimization requires only Power Attack.

Also, notice that there is no requirement on using a melee weapon to smite evil, archer paladins are now a thing, and thanks to rapid shot, can do some of the best smite damage. To back it up, one of the core PF deities (Erastil) is LG and has favored weapon longbow if you're looking to match up flavor.

As for skills, diplomacy is generally good if the campaign involves more than just killing monsters and taking their loot.

Perception is cross-class for paladins, but still one of the most-rolled skills in the game.

One of knowledge religion or planes wouldn't hurt, unless the wizard has it already.

Ride and handle animal are a must if you are taking a mount as a divine bond, but that is typically a trap unless you're a halfling or gnome.

I may be able to add more tomorrow. Need sleep now.

[BWR]

I've had one player play a paladin from 1st to 16th with a damage build. Apart from Power Attack, all her feats have been things that don't help a DPR build, and she's done fine.

Damage is a lot easier to pull off, as already noted. Fewer feats are required and fewer creatures that will be mostly immune to your attempts at lockdown. Even if you only meet creatures of your own size, CMD scales faster than CMB. At low level you can pull it off with a little luck, but it gets hard to do later. However, your Smite Evil bonus to attacks also apply to CMB, so you might be able to make up for some of your weakness there.

Melee damage is basically the same as 3.5: Power Attack, two-handed weapon and Strength. Paladins also make good tanks with their Swift action self Lay on Hands, so you can walk on up to the enemy and hit them with full attacks each round while healing yourself. If you want to play up the tanky aspect, Dodge for AC and Extra Lay on Hands to keep you upright.
I'd definitely take Diplomacy unless your group is one that never uses it in any case. You'll likely have the best Charisma of the group so there's no reason not to be the party face.
Unless you really roll well on hp, I'd probably use some or most of your favored class points on HP rather than skills. It looks like you will be doing the heavy lifting in combat and a few extra HP can make all the difference. After that, drop at least 1 rank in Knowledge (religion) because I'm of the opinion that all divine characters should know at least something about their patron, It's hard to recommend that someone drop Perception since it's perhaps the single most useful skill in the game, but you have a Ranger for that.

Once you get Divine Bond your best bet is to take the weapon enhancement variant. Unless you build your character to be a mounted type you'll find that being able to enhance your weapon in different ways is far more useful, especially since high +X values bypass certain types of damage reduction. Having a magic weapon is suddenly not quite as necessary with this ability, and especially with the new Smite bypassing all DR. Bonus to attack is always nice, but you'll almost always be able to get through DR somehow.

All the best paladin spells come in other supplements (Hero's Defiance and Paladin's Sacrifice see use almost every combat, at my table), so there's not really anything to recommend.

[Corvino]

Being limited to the CRB does make things pretty straightforward. Power Attack, 2-handed weapons and a divine bond with your weapon are a solid and simple way to go. Wade in, break heads and swift-action self heal. Rinse and repeat.

If you were allowed access to other supplements then there are a number of ways to really enhance Lay on Hands. Fey Foundling is a feat that enhances every heal you receive. Greater Mercy means any time you use LoH and don't get a condition removed by your Mercies, you get more healing. Combine these and you end up with a near-bottomless health pool.

For a selection of class guides, have a look at the Paizo.com forums. The Pathfinder RPG Advice forum has a stickied thread full of class guides in it.

[deuxhero]

And Ultimate Mercy combined with a Runeforged weapon is a great way to piss off Mechanus, but it's not open to him sadly.

But yeah, for core you are limited to 2h, archer and maybe halfling lancer.

[abadguy]

Awesome stuff. I haven't had a chance to wade in the PF Monster Manual yet so thanks for the heads up that monster CMD scales harder than PC CMB. Thanks for the great insights and looking forward to more!

Yeah it's a shame we can't even use Archetypes which I think is the best aspect of PF and promotes going pure class instead of dipping classes. For e.g in small parties, a PC will need to fulfil more than one party role, the Urban Ranger will be perfect to combine both trapfinder and archer roles. The Sacred Servant archetype is pure gold for a Paladin. But it's fine I think this would make for a good intro into PF. Our DM is still retaining certain aspects of play e.g 3.5 style point buy, D&D core pantheon so while the mechanics have changed, the fluff remains about the same.

From a RP perspective, do skills come into play more often than 3.5?

Could also do with equipment advice too: any PF only items that are must haves? Mithral full plate worth the cost?

[BWR]

Awesome stuff. I haven't had a chance to wade in the PF Monster Manual yet so thanks for the heads up that monster CMD scales harder than PC CMB. Thanks for the great insights and looking forward to more!

Yeah it's a shame we can't even use Archetypes which I think is the best aspect of PF and promotes going pure class instead of dipping classes. For e.g in small parties, a PC will need to fulfil more than one party role, the Urban Ranger will be perfect to combine both trapfinder and archer roles. The Sacred Servant archetype is pure gold for a Paladin. But it's fine I think this would make for a good intro into PF. Our DM is still retaining certain aspects of play e.g 3.5 style point buy, D&D core pantheon so while the mechanics have changed, the fluff remains about the same.

From a RP perspective, do skills come into play more often than 3.5?

Could also do with equipment advice too: any PF only items that are must haves? Mithral full plate worth the cost?

It's not only monster CMD that scales faster - it boils down to that CMD gets more things added to it than CMB, so you'll notice this on PCs as well. One of the paladins in my group has a CMB of about 25 and a CMD about 40, and she hasn't even optimized to increase it. Once you start adding in size modifiers (which are admittedly less than 3.5) things get even worse. I love the archetypes but if your DM wants to become familiar with the basic game before allowing other stuff, just go along with it and wait until s/he's more comfortable with PF.

Skills get used about the same as 3.5, it's just that a few skills have been consolidated so you roll somewhat fewer dice. It does mean that things like Perception is the skill, but it means you can spend you only need to spend one skill point per level to be a good sneaky person instead of two, or only one instead of three to be a good scout. All in all, I prefer it this way.

Gear..I'm not sure I'd find it worthwhile to spend most of my starting wealth on such an armor, but it's definitely useful. Big question is, is mithral really worth it for you now? You will still be moving slower than the rest of the party and unless you have a very decent Dexterity modifier or expect to have to make many sorts of checks that ACP apply to you will not really see any benefit for those 9000 gp. Unless your Dex is 16 or over, I'd probably just take a normal +1 full plate and a stat booster (Charisma or Constitution) and either a +1 weapon or a Ring of Protection +1. If you choose Divine Bond: Weapon you can always make any old weapon magical, but you will spend an action on it, it doesn't last forever, and your DB can stack with existing magic, so it's almost always worthwhile to have a magic weapon.Especially if you want to go the melee damage dealer route.

[Ravens_cry]

If you are going to be a Combat Maneuver Paladin, you really, really want Adept Champion feat. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/adept-champion). Against Evil Dragons, Fiends, and Undead, you get your level as a plus to to your CMB while smiting. Woot!
Also, focus on one maneuver. Don't spend your feats on a bunch; choose one and stick at it.
Don't forget, your Charisma bonus to hit while smiting, also adds to your CMB check, as does any +x on your weapon, or anything else, including Divine Favour. Fate's favoured (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/faith-traits/fate-s-favored) (adding +1 to any luck bonus) and Magical Knack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack) (give +2 to your caster level, meaning spells upgrade that much sooner) Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gauntlets-of-the-skilled-maneuver) add yet another +2 for cheap.
Add in the standard CM feats of choice, and, all told, at the right time, you *are* going to be able to make that check against the right targets.
Ah, fug it, just go Power Attack and Smite, no way you can make the CM checks dependably on Core only, even with +Charisma bonus to CMB

[JusticeZero]

Yus. Core only makes me cry, especially when you have the whole SRD available for free.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Lockdown is just horrible in PF in general, and especially in core. Stand Still doesn't just suck for being based on CMD - it's also adjacent only. The best and least costly investment in "lockdown" you could make is actually the Step Up feat. Doesn't keep them from moving, but it hoses archers and reach weapon users really badly. Also casters if they don't have high concentration modifiers for some reason. And it's a level 1 feat w/ no pre-reqs. I'd definitely pick it up along with power attack in a core only game.

Speaking of concentration, one neat trick...since it's a charisma-based check for you (as a cha-based caster), a circlet of persuasion will actually give you +3 on concentration checks on top of the normal goodies.

For skills, you get diplomacy and should max it. UMD is not in-class, but still really good. Intimidate is decent but also not a class skill. Perception is the most powerful skill in the game, everyone should max it. You've probably already not got enough points for all these skills. :smallsmile: Also take advantage of "one point wonders" - single ranks in class skills to nab the +3 bonus. As a 2 + Int skills class w/o much need for Int, you might even consider dropping Int to 7. You'll only lose 1 skill point per level vs. Int 10, it's a pretty good deal. If you play Human and take skill points for favored class benefit, you still net 3 per level despite your limited mental faculties. The main reason not to nuke Int is so you can max out and be decent at spellcraft, which on top of its original amazing functions now can be used to craft magic items w/o having the required spells or even the required caster level. Not required, but in a core only game, craft wondrous and craft arms & armor start to look REAL good what with the dearth of options for feats. You are a spellcaster, after all.

Lay on Hands is pretty great in PF....for yourself. Swift action healing is very handy. On other allies...moving to them and using a standard just seems like a waste of a turn. Only exception would be at higher levels when you have a bunch of mercies, to possibly cure a nasty status condition from someone. Otherwise you're better off "protecting the party" by optimizing your own damage, being the greatest threat, and drawing the ensuing wrath of the enemies...and then swift healing each round.

If you ever get to Aura of Justice at level 11, the DM basically can never use an evil solo boss against the party ever again and expect it to be remotely threatening. :smallbiggrin: