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D20ragon
2014-07-11, 06:35 AM
I'm a great lover of sailing, and so it falls naturally that at some point in my RPG carrer I'd like to play in or run a sailing game.
Now, there's only one issue.
Whenever I say "sailing game!" Everyone says "boring!"
So I come to you today with a plain and simple plan.
How can I make a sailing game fun? I'm mainly worried about shipboard roleplaying then anything else, so let's focus on that.
I've got plenty of nautical adventures ready to go, if only you could help!

MLai
2014-07-11, 07:18 AM
I think to address the problem of others feeling it's boring, first you have to itemize the reasons why it's boring.

(1) You're stuck in one place with the same PCs and NPCs for a long time.
(2) It takes effort to operate this place on a daily basis, but no player who isn't a sailor would know how to do it in play. And it's work. No one wants it or cares.
(3) The only times things get interesting is when they land somewhere (either on land or on another ship). As far as they're concerned, it's much better if they just play a land-based adventure in that case, so they can be on land all the time.

So the main problem is you have to have game mechanics that make being on the ship fun... Maybe you can look at Starship RPGs and think about how you can translate that experience onto a sailing ship?

D20ragon
2014-07-11, 07:29 AM
I am aware of all of these things, and I've got some ideas addressing them.
(1) Nothing I can really do about that. A ship is a vehical, after all. The only way to help with this is to make
The NPCs interesting and engaging.
(2) Not overmuch I can do here either. Running a ship takes work. However, it's considerably less work if you're a captain. Perhaps a solo captain game?
(3) This is the one I can do the most about. It's a game, after all, and I can make it as fantastical as I want.
So if I ratchet up the fantasy, include plenty of encounters, strange environments, and a few plain oddities, that should work out ok, maybe?

ElenionAncalima
2014-07-11, 07:56 AM
To add to what MLai is saying, I would really talk to your players to find out the specific reasons why they think it will be boring. Otherwise you may spend a lot of time trying to fix the wrong problem.

If they really aren't into it, a full scale sailing campaign may just not be an option, but you can still work in smaller arcs. I know the arc that I ran with my players that I was planning in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336084-Interesting-things-to-do-aboard-a-ship) was pretty successful. The stowaways from one of the subplots are still travelling with the party.

Lycoris
2014-07-11, 08:01 AM
I think MLai makes some good starting points for how to expand on a seafaring campaign. As for some things you could try:

1) Stuck in the same place with PCs/NPCs.

To deal with this, try and find ways to get the PCs invested in the ship/crew, and find ways to have the ship become a mobile home/base of operations. Perhaps they've got an NPC friend who is a bit of an old salt, and approaches the party with a plan to establish some new trade route/explore some ancient/unknown territories. You could even give the PCs the opportunity to choose some of the NPC crew themselves, to add an additional bit of player attachment to the group as a whole. Group agency and attachment are key tools to getting players invested in anything.

2) It's a lot of work, and PC skillsets may not match what's needed.

To deal with this, it may be best to ease into the seafaring routine. Make initial trips quick and with minimal interactions, in the same way as one might view riding a wagon from one town to another. You can then slowly add in more things for the players to potentially do as the campaign carries on, and let them be creative in how they might choose to help (the recent Oots comics do a good job of this, just replace airship with the regular kind). Minor XP rewards (when they first start helping) and perhaps even free skill ranks in Profession(Sailor) (as things become more routine) are potential rewards to help add interest.

3) Things are only interesting on land, so it's better to be on land.

At the start, that's probably the case, and is fine when you are easing them into the idea of having/caring for a ship & crew. As a fan of the sea, you are probably fully aware that in reality, there are plenty of adventures that can be had that might not have been possible on solid ground. Dealing with storms, pirate attacks, becoming pirates yourselves, coming across derelict ship graveyards to salvage, or unexplored territories with tribes that have been isolated from the world. These are but a few ways you can set up encounters or start off entire adventures.

4) Miscellaneous notes.

-Depending on your group's sense of humor, making people make fortitude saves vs. Seasickness might create a solid roleplaying scenario. As time goes on, you can give them bonuses towards the save/reduce the difficulty of the save as they earn their sea legs.

-Again, depending on your group's sense of humor/feelings towards roleplaying, you can set up some nice moments between the crew(s) you encounter on your adventures. Sharing stories (perhaps as seeds towards potential plot points), singing shanties (give them bards a chance to shine), chances to gamble (cards/dice/etc.) or have contests of strength/endurance/wit (arm wrestling, grog drinking, bantering). These moments can be particularly welcome after the party/crew accomplishes something great (weathering a storm, routing a pirate attack, etc.) and has cause for celebration.

-Depending on your desire for additional sources of inspiration, Brian Jacques has written quite a few books between his "Castaways of the Flying Dutchman" and "Redwall" series, that may give you some ideas for characters/encounters/campaigns. I've yet to read the Castaways series, but some books of note from the Redwall series include:

-The Legend of Luke
-Mariel of Redwall
-The Bellmaker
-The Pearls of Lutra
-Triss
-The Rogue Crew

I3igAl
2014-07-11, 08:50 AM
Sailing has the same problem as most travel adventures. It often ends up as a sequence of encounters without much happening in beetween.

One way to make seatravel more interesting, is creating a really elaborate crew for the PCs to interact with. I always used Moby **** as an inspiration-the book as well as that movie from the 50ies.

An adventure which works well aboard on a ship would be an intrigue or a murder case where the PCs have to interview the crew to find out, who the murderer is.

Segev
2014-07-11, 08:52 AM
Two distinct, mostly-unrelated suggestions:

First off, nearly every adventuring party has a 'base of operations' somewhere in the setting. A town to which they return, or whathaveyou. Those that do not are the wandering inn-hoppers: they get to the next town nearby whatever adventure they're having or dungeon they're clearing, and stay in an inn that (again) becomes their (temporary) base of operations. "Go back to town" is its own trope in fantasy precisely because of the way players play these games most of the time.

In a seafaring campaign, the ship becomes the party's "inn." It's little different from having a permanent residence in that they go back to it to rest and recover between missions, or little different from the party wagon-of-goods-and-supplies-and-loot if they choose to stay in inns on land when they come to port.

Players may ask, "why not just stay on land?" to which you reply, "well, this campaign takes place between several ports, and across some islands that aren't connected to the continent by land, so sea travel is just how you get from place to place."

This brings us to the second point I wish to offer: don't pitch it as "seafaring" on the face of it. Do mention that sailing skills will be useful, and don't hide that it's going to have a lot of water-based travel, but don't treat it differently than you would a "normal" land-based game. Let them have their land-based adventures, and just have the random encounters be ocean-going rather than land-based. Pirates instead of bandits, sea monsters instead of land monsters.

At first, they might not want to run a ship. Don't force them to. Instead, let them book passage on other ships. Maybe they spend money to be passengers. Maybe they try to get on as crew (if they've the skills) or as guards on a merchant vessel. After all, if random encounters happen at sea, guards would be as useful there as they are for caravans going from town to town.

Give them the adventures they want on land, based on the islands. Use the fact that islands might have only one town to increase isolation; that's why the party is the only group that can solve whatever the adventure's problem is.

Make the ships' crews and other passengers interesting, and have your intrigue or whatnot on the boat in between. Introduce the "sea-based" adventures a bit at a time. Perhaps the adventure they "wanted" to do was out on an island, so they had to sail out to it. They take care of it, get their reward, and now want to go home. Now, when they don't have any particular reason to be rushing out to handle a different adventure, is your chance for a ship-based adventure.

Do find out what they think is "boring" about it. Avoid that stuff.

Remember that sailing is just a means of getting around; treat it like one. Don't sell it as "sailing adventures," because that conjures the notion of hours spent on a boat. Just sell it as a game where the dungeons are separated by water at least as often as by long distances on land.

LokiRagnarok
2014-07-13, 03:59 AM
This thread may be interesting to you - it deals with a similar problem.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336084-Interesting-things-to-do-aboard-a-ship&p=17157352

TheCountAlucard
2014-07-13, 09:59 AM
The first edition of Exalted produced a book for sailing on the seas of Creation, the game's setting. Appropriately enough, it's titled Savage Seas, and all in all, it's a pretty nifty book; I think you could get some use out of it even without attaching it to Exalted's savage world of gods and heroes.

Socratov
2014-07-13, 10:58 AM
Well, if sailing the seas is dull, why not have a crew of pirates attack them, or have the party become pirates. Sacking ships in dnd is fun and before you know it the navy shows up and you can get a whole fleet of ships if you play your cards right. then you start your own pirate island and have beer and rum and sing shanties 'till morning come (also give people free leadership in the form of a ship's crew and a first mate as cohort)

Thinker
2014-07-14, 12:22 AM
Watch Star Trek. Replace aliens with fantasy counterparts. A lot of that is easy: Vulcans become Elves, Klingons become Orcs, spaceship becomes clipper, etc. The Federation becomes the Empire and the crew is dispatched on a mission to seek out new trade routes and allies, to discover resources, and to find important sites like El Dorado or the Fountain of Youth. You can also steal the conflict of an episode and repurpose it for your adventure's goal. Turn Omicron Ceti III into a supposedly-lost colony with a dark secret - the colonists are all undead and are under the control of a powerful lich who keeps them alive for an unknown reason. You can use Q as a recurring trickster sea god who is challenging the crew where failure means the desolation of the Empire's coasts, effectively destroying their home. The Borg can be a malignant force of a far away land that only discovers the Empire due to a chance encounter with the party's ship on the high seas.

Thrawn4
2014-07-14, 05:15 AM
You can still have occasional adventures in the harbours or on remote islands.

Also, it should be interesting for them to choose whether they want to work as privateers, pirates, smugglers, treasure hounters, soldiers or mercenaries.

Jay R
2014-07-14, 08:12 AM
Whenever I say "sailing game!" Everyone says "boring!"

Your problem is that you are a using poor salesmanship.

Don't say "sailing game". Say "pirate game".

[Either that, or don't bother to sell it. Have them shanghaied. They wake up on board ship, at sea.]

Socratov
2014-07-14, 08:53 AM
excellent suggestions
though the Borg woudl be more like some sort of psionic hivemind don't you think (colony of thrallherds?)

Your problem is that you are a using poor salesmanship.

Don't say "sailing game". Say "pirate game".

[Either that, or don't bother to sell it. Have them shanghaied. They wake up on board ship, at sea.]

I 100% agree with this post. (including the part between brackets)

D20ragon
2014-07-14, 09:58 AM
For the record, never in my life have I ever uttered the words "Sailing Game!":smallwink::smalltongue:

Jay R
2014-07-14, 12:58 PM
For the record, never in my life have I ever uttered the words "Sailing Game!":smallwink::smalltongue:

My point stands. Sell the game by talking about pirates, buried treasure, raiding parties, etc. You can't sell a game about raiding for the same reason you can't sell a game about riding horses. But PCs will happily buy horses, or a boat, to get to the monsters and the treasures.

SimonMoon6
2014-07-14, 01:25 PM
Personally, I don't see a problem.

In a standard campaign, people spend a long boring time traveling through the woods to get to the exciting part (the adventure).

In a sea-faring campaign, people spend a long boring time traveling through the ocean to get to the exciting part (the adventure).

The only differences that I see are:

(a) The random encounters are different. (You don't fight wolves on a ship.) And it's often more awkward for seafaring monsters to get on board a ship (sharks won't but sea-trolls might). And sometimes the random encounters might be attacking the ship not the PCs (giant tentacled monsters prefer this tactic).

(b) The main encounter might be another ship, where you have to deal with ship-to-ship combat and boarding parties and all of those complications.

Thinker
2014-07-14, 09:40 PM
though the Borg woudl be more like some sort of psionic hivemind don't you think (colony of thrallherds?)

Thrallherds would work. So would some overzealous religion intent on converting everyone to their own, by force if necessary (though, that is more like the Dominion of DS9). An insect hive would be interesting, less intent on assimilating people so much as land and structures.

Ravian
2014-07-14, 11:48 PM
I've always thought that the reason that people might turn up their noses at sailing games is that they're predictable. You know that while you're on a boat there's either going to be pirates or sea monsters until you get to your destination, which alot of people will consider very passe (especially given how d&d has a habit of just making aquatic versions of all their monsters.)

Not only that but the ocean often seems like the world's biggest railroad. There's nothing but water and a bad DM can easily force unruly player's to go along with the plot since the alternative is swimming back to wherever shore is.

The solution therefore is variety. Make sure that they are in control of the ship (barring obvious circumstances like mutiny) and have choices about where they go. Open-world design is your friend. Maps are especially your friend.

Learn about the ocean, its an unbelievable place, even on a surface that looks like nothing but water. Storms, Sargassos, Icebergs, and Whirlpools, oh my. Read some of Brian Jacques books with sailing in them for some incredible adventure environments. And of course make sure that the ship is a place the party wants to stay on board, rather than just a vehicle they're waiting to leave once they reach land. Interesting crew, interesting activities. (I remember a common way to duel on board pirate ships was to tie the two contestants together with a short length of rope by the elbow and give them each a knife to kill the other with) and something for everyone to do on the way. (and not just a normal chore like preparing spells that they would do anything.) like giving the acrobatic rogue chief responsibility over the maze of sail, rope and rigging that are the masts, or the bard the opportunity to lead the crew in sea shanties to work them in harmony. Even add something fantastic to it, replace the crow's nest for a scrying device for the wizard to keep watch over the surrounding for them, or litanies for the cleric to appease the god of the sea with for safe passage.

Just remember that if anyone's complains that it's a sailing campaign, you can always reply with "So was the Odyssey."

Pluto!
2014-07-15, 07:47 AM
Even if you're focusing on the sailing rather than the landings, there's no reason you couldn't use a ship-based game to do normal enclosed-environment stories - whodunits and horror come to mind.

D20ragon
2014-07-15, 08:46 AM
I've always thought that the reason that people might turn up their noses at sailing games is that they're predictable. You know that while you're on a boat there's either going to be pirates or sea monsters until you get to your destination, which alot of people will consider very passe (especially given how d&d has a habit of just making aquatic versions of all their monsters.)

Not only that but the ocean often seems like the world's biggest railroad. There's nothing but water and a bad DM can easily force unruly player's to go along with the plot since the alternative is swimming back to wherever shore is.

The solution therefore is variety. Make sure that they are in control of the ship (barring obvious circumstances like mutiny) and have choices about where they go. Open-world design is your friend. Maps are especially your friend.

Learn about the ocean, its an unbelievable place, even on a surface that looks like nothing but water. Storms, Sargassos, Icebergs, and Whirlpools, oh my. Read some of Brian Jacques books with sailing in them for some incredible adventure environments. And of course make sure that the ship is a place the party wants to stay on board, rather than just a vehicle they're waiting to leave once they reach land. Interesting crew, interesting activities. (I remember a common way to duel on board pirate ships was to tie the two contestants together with a short length of rope by the elbow and give them each a knife to kill the other with) and something for everyone to do on the way. (and not just a normal chore like preparing spells that they would do anything.) like giving the acrobatic rogue chief responsibility over the maze of sail, rope and rigging that are the masts, or the bard the opportunity to lead the crew in sea shanties to work them in harmony. Even add something fantastic to it, replace the crow's nest for a scrying device for the wizard to keep watch over the surrounding for them, or litanies for the cleric to appease the god of the sea with for safe passage.

Just remember that if anyone's complains that it's a sailing campaign, you can always reply with "So was the Odyssey."


Oh, don't worry. I know a pretty good amount about the ocean, and intend to supplement my knowledge with some fantastical elements.

Fire Lord Pi
2014-07-15, 10:33 AM
Just remember that if anyone's complains that it's a sailing campaign, you can always reply with "So was the Odyssey."

:smallfurious: no, Odysseus! How do you continue to torture me!!! I wouldn't say this, because I would rather suffer the fate of each individual suitor than play an Odyssey campaign.

But I am running a naval campaign, and what was said before is true. Interesting crew mates, good encounters in diverse towns, and overarching world events are what make it. If you want some inspiration you could check out my campaign journal (Senescence, of crew and captain) *shameless selfplug* :smallbiggrin:

TheCountAlucard
2014-07-15, 01:23 PM
Lay off it, Sean - if it bugs you so much, do like rational people do and ignore that part of the discussion.

Winter_Wolf
2014-07-15, 05:33 PM
Man I'd love to play a sea-faring campaign. Then again, I grew up on boats. And it's pretty clear who hasn't when they talk about how boring/predictable that sounds. Don't even get me started on the hellholes that are harbors, docks, and port districts. I've personally nearly lost a foot, an arm, an eye, and even a couple of times my life.

Then there's cabin-fever of the sea. A boat or even a ship is a lot like a floating prison, when you're not the skipper (to an extent, even when you are; I've never met a skipper who was completely mentally stable :smallwink:). With the ever-present joy of possibly drowning if you "fall" overboard. The crew infighting, potentially mutinous activity, the horror of trying to deal with a fire when you're surrounded by water and it doesn't matter because everything's been waterproofed with petroleum/tar/flammable substance. Rigging snaps, a cleat breaks (near miss on a concussion/involuntary cranial implant!), running aground, not running aground but damaging the hull to the point where you're likely to be treading water in a matter of minutes. Pirates are still a thing even in the modern world, except now they use military grade weapons instead of cutlasses and flintlocks. Storms, getting becalmed, FOG, maelstroms.

Then you can add in all the D&D stuff, magic, sea monsters, supernatural pirates with ships capable of flight but they keep a low profile to lull lubbers and merchants into a false sense of being able to outrun them.

Broken Crown
2014-07-16, 05:52 PM
Not only that but the ocean often seems like the world's biggest railroad. There's nothing but water and a bad DM can easily force unruly player's to go along with the plot since the alternative is swimming back to wherever shore is.

I'm really not sure what to make of this statement. A railroad only goes to one place. A ship on the ocean can go anywhere. I would think the ocean was the world's biggest sandbox, if anything, albeit one with very wet sand. (And sand has to be wet if you're going to build a decent sandcastle!)

Darkpaladin109
2014-07-16, 07:27 PM
Well, the biggest problem with sailing campaigns is the idea that the players will spend most of the time on the ship, and will rarely leave it. Besides the fact that the players are pretty much going to spend most of the time in one place, it's that there's really not that much to do on a ship most of the time, or at least that's what players may rightfully fear.
To remedy what I said, have PC's often leave the ship - say, visiting island towns or looking for treasure on abandoned islands, for example. While sailing, they could be attacked by pirates, sea monsters, or even find ghost ships! Of course, not everything has to be hostile, so you can also have them simply find survivors from shipwrecks drifting amidst the ocean on rafts, for example.
Of course, I may not be right, and this may not make the campaign any less boring. Also remember that what options i have presented aren't your only options, as obvious as that is.

Winter_Wolf
2014-07-16, 07:41 PM
I just thought of something particularly evil in a sea-faring campaign: a dead magic zone in a doldrum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doldrums) during a calm spell. Entirely possible to starve to death/die of thirst/everyone starts going insane from thirst and hunger and tries to kill each other.

This one I'd recommend avoiding, actually. It would almost certainly seal forever the "oh hell no" to sea-faring adventures. An aquatic, slow motion equivalent to "rocks fall, everyone dies" if you will.

TheCountAlucard
2014-07-17, 12:17 PM
I just thought of something particularly evil in a sea-faring campaign: a dead magic zone in a doldrum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doldrums) during a calm spell. Entirely possible to starve to death/die of thirst/everyone starts going insane from thirst and hunger and tries to kill each other.Or, y'know, break out the oars. In fact, depending on the sort of era in which the campaign is set, oars might be the primary means of the vessel's propulsion...

Ravian
2014-07-17, 01:00 PM
I'm really not sure what to make of this statement. A railroad only goes to one place. A ship on the ocean can go anywhere. I would think the ocean was the world's biggest sandbox, if anything, albeit one with very wet sand. (And sand has to be wet if you're going to build a decent sandcastle!)

That is how it is when it's fully utilized, but imagine if the DM is the type to railroad players, then the ship suddenly becomes the best way to force them on track. Just imagine this scenario.

DM: You board the ship taking you to the island fortress of the dread necromancer.

PCs: actually I was hoping to go to a larger city first, the last one didn't have any magic items or anything.

DM: No there are no towns between here and the island fortress.

PCs: Wait nothing? I thought there was a whole chain of islands to the West.

DM: There's no one there. You need to go to the island fortress.

PCs: Well we can make a quick detour, right? There's plenty of coastal cities back the way we came, we can dock at one of those.

DM: No the ship's been commisioned to take you to the island fortress, there's no time for detours

PCs: Well what if we take control of the ship and sail it to a city?

DM: No one took Proffesion: Sailor, you'll get lost and starve, go to the island fortress.

PCs: Come on there's got to be a way to go somewhere else first.

DM: Unless you're going to the island fortress, you'll have to swim.

PCs: ...Well I guess we're going to the island fortress then...


The sea is a perfect sandbox environment, but because you need special transport to go anywhere (or gills), it can also be a perfect railroad if the DM denies you use of the boat. It's not like land travel where it's perfectly viable to go off the path. (though at that point it turns into a game of chicken between the Player and the DM between how many times the DM can say "you find nothing interesting" and how many times the Player can say "I keep going" until one of them runs out of patience.) The ocean can deny that option so much more effectively that it can make a ship look like a metal box a DM keeps the players in between adventures.

D20ragon
2014-07-17, 01:20 PM
Nah, the type of game I'm envisioning would have all the characters at least know rudimentary facts about sailing.
Also, Rogue Trader on the high seas!