Why will the Belksters death be permanent?

[ace rooster]

Back in the throne room Belkar stated with some confidence that Durkon would raise him from the dead if required, and I think he was right about the sentiment, if not the practicalities. Obviously Durkon is not in a position to now (And Durkula would not), but he is not comatose. He seems to be aware of his surroundings, which include the fact that the only person who is trying to get the real Durkon back is Belkar (not to mention Belkar's genuine development, which Durkon has a front row seat for)! That is not the sort of thing that Durkon would ignore, and I would imagine he would try to ressurect him at the first opportunity.

The prophesy states clearly that Belkar will take his last breath ever, so it is hard to see him getting ressurected without violating it. As it was an official prophesy I don't think this can be an oversight either. I can see 3 possible reasons the ressurection does not come.

1: Ressurection does not work, or would do huge amounts of damage. Possibly suggesting that Belkar will be lost to the Snarl.

2: Durkon does not get an opportunity to ressurect him at all. Assuming that Durkon will get 9th level spells at some point (Does not even need the remains), this means that Durkon will also be permanently lost before he gets a chance.

3: Belkar has redeemed himself to the point of ending up on the endless battlefields of Ysgard. I can think of no place where the sexy shoeless god of war would be happier, so he may not return. I think this one is unlikely, as it throws away most of Belkars development (loyalty to the cause becoming a 'thing').

Any other possibilities?

[Steveio]

Option 4: Nobody in the Order actually likes Belkar and see no reason to risk him going back to a life of randomly murdering people after finishing up the plot. So they don't bother resurrecting him. Just because Belkar thinks Durkon would be willing to raise him doesn't mean Durkon actually is willing to raise him.

Haley believes his sudden change in demeanor is a ploy, and Roy doesn't seem too concerned about him dying. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)

[Gift Jeraff]

Durkula will kill him, dispose of the body, and Durkon (if he is ever restored to life) never reaches 17th level.

[Peelee]

Durkula will kill him, dispose of the body, and Durkon (if he is ever restored to life) never reaches 17th level.

17 level doesn't matter, as The Giant hates True Res (see Index of Giant's Comments for specific wording), and I'd bet my future degree that it doesn't exist in OotS world.

[ace rooster]

Option 4: Nobody in the Order actually likes Belkar and see no reason to risk him going back to a life of randomly murdering people after finishing up the plot. So they don't bother resurrecting him. Just because Belkar thinks Durkon would be willing to raise him doesn't mean Durkon actually is willing to raise him.

Haley believes his sudden change in demeanor is a ploy, and Roy doesn't seem too concerned about him dying. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)

Neither Roy's nor Haley's opinion matters, as the person making the decision would be Durkon. Durkon is the only person who has a good view of Belkars development and a high wisdom to realise that he is sincere. That would be good enough reason without the fact that Belkar is currently the only person trying to free Durkon; a loyalty which Durkon will feel duty bound to repay.



17 level doesn't matter, as The Giant hates True Res (see Index of Giant's Comments for specific wording), and I'd bet my future degree that it doesn't exist in OotS world.


That makes more sense, but still puts limitations on how Belkar dies (no locateable remains) so is worth noting.

[Kish]

I think you just lost your future degree. Haley talked about needing to track down a level 17 cleric to get Roy True Resurrected, not about needing to get a house rule revoked. And Rich said that a solar could theoretically have True Resurrected the ancient black dragon's son.

Whether it will actually appear on-stage is one thing, but thus far, Rich has pretty dedicatedly written around it, not plowed through it with a, "True what? Doesn't exist here."

[factotum]

I think it's entirely possible Durkon will die and stay dead, thus never having an opportunity to rez Belkar. After all, the only prophecy we have for Durkon is that he will return to Dwarven lands posthumously, which looks pretty much guaranteed to happen at this point--what happens after then is another matter entirely.

[Peelee]

I think you just lost your future degree. Haley talked about needing to track down a level 17 cleric to get Roy True Resurrected, not about needing to get a house rule revoked. And Rich said that a solar could theoretically have True Resurrected the ancient black dragon's son.

Whether it will actually appear on-stage is one thing, but thus far, Rich has pretty dedicatedly written around it, not plowed through it with a, "True what? Doesn't exist here."

Crap. Now I have to study liberal arts as well so I don't lose the valuable one.

[Reddish Mage]

Option 4: Nobody in the Order actually likes Belkar and see no reason to risk him going back to a life of randomly murdering people after finishing up the plot. So they don't bother resurrecting him. Just because Belkar thinks Durkon would be willing to raise him doesn't mean Durkon actually is willing to raise him.

Haley believes his sudden change in demeanor is a ploy, and Roy doesn't seem too concerned about him dying. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)

Belkar is he best thing in the comic right now. He is funny, he is showing real character growth, and he is the only one that suspects the truth about Durkula. We see the comic right now through his eyes.

Belkar is going to die, and it will be permanent, because to do otherwise would be to cheapen what will turn out to be a pivotal moment worthy of a main character's redemption. The order will mourn his death.

[malloyd]

I suspect Belkar will die at the story climax and then the story will be over. We'll never see why Durkon doesn't raise him.

Though I think destroyed by the Snarl and respected as a global hero for it, to highlight the contrast with the Order of the Scribble erasing Kragor's sacrifice, would be a pretty reasonable story structure too.

[Bulldog Psion]

Belkar will die as the unsung antihero of the piece. The others will dump his body -- if he has one -- in an unmarked grave and breathe a sigh of relief, never realizing that it was the halfling who ended up saving their bacon because his character growth was real. And in order to get that poetically tragic irony, the death has to be permanent.

Right now, we are seeing how the other characters are blinded by their preconceptions at the same time Belkar is shedding his. He sees himself with ironic, worldweary clarity, and sees Durk Malackssen for what he is. It's time to cue the noble but mournful music and get ready for the Belkster's last stand.

IMO, blah blah, of course.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The Order will get up to the fifth hour of the ritual...wrong dimension, sorry.

I think that the Order will voluntarily not bring Belkar back to life, or his death will be accomplished in a manner that makes bringing him back exceedingly difficult/expensive. Perhaps his death will redeem himself, but the Order will not be aware of that.

[Reddish Mage]

Belkar will die as the unsung antihero of the piece. The others will dump his body -- if he has one -- in an unmarked grave and breathe a sigh of relief, never realizing that it was the halfling who ended up saving their bacon because his character growth was real. And in order to get that poetically tragic irony, the death has to be permanent.

Right now, we are seeing how the other characters are blinded by their preconceptions at the same time Belkar is shedding his. He sees himself with ironic, worldweary clarity, and sees Durk Malackssen for what he is. It's time to cue the noble but mournful music and get ready for the Belkster's last stand.

IMO, blah blah, of course.

I think Belkar dying shortly a full book before the final, with the rest of the Order never recognizing his heroic sacrifice, will be tragic and mar the rest of the comic.

This comic just doesn't go dark that way.

[Bulldog Psion]

I think Belkar dying shortly a full book before the final, with the rest of the Order never recognizing his heroic sacrifice, will be tragic and mar the rest of the comic.

This comic just doesn't go dark that way.

Well, I actually agree he won't die before the finale. Not by much, anyway. But the scenario I described can certainly take place as part of the final battle, too.

As for dark? We've already got Belkar on a deathwatch and Durkon dead, possibly forever as well. While I agree the comic isn't as dark as some, I'm only counting on Haley and Elan making it through, with Roy and V as possible casualties also (though not as certain by any means as the doomed and the dead).

Personally, I'm hoping for a bit of tragedy in the end. Not entirely tragic, of course, but enough for the sake of a touch of art, or seriousness, or whatever you want to call it.


It seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Ilúvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came.

[Angelalex242]

Or you could be over thinking things, and Belkar gets killed by the snarl directly. As Lord Soon found out the hard way with his wife, the snarl, when it kills someone, destroys their soul. Even True Res and the Gods themselves can't fix you at that point.

[martianmister]

His death doesn't matter. OotS have no reason to resurrect him.

[Reddish Mage]

His death doesn't matter. OotS have no reason to resurrect him.

They will once he's dead. But what's to say Belkar will want to accept resurrection?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Or you could be over thinking things, and Belkar gets killed by the snarl directly. As Lord Soon found out the hard way with his wife, the snarl, when it kills someone, destroys their soul. Even True Res and the Gods themselves can't fix you at that point.

That is true. If the Snarl does work that way, then being killed by the Snarl is a sure way tone is forever.

[137beth]

I think you just lost your future degree. Haley talked about needing to track down a level 17 cleric to get Roy True Resurrected, not about needing to get a house rule revoked. And Rich said that a solar could theoretically have True Resurrected the ancient black dragon's son.

Whether it will actually appear on-stage is one thing, but thus far, Rich has pretty dedicatedly written around it, not plowed through it with a, "True what? Doesn't exist here."
Also Dorukan made an effort to bring back Lirian, despite not having any part of her body, so he must have believed true resurrection was possible.

The Order will get up to the fifth hour of the ritual...wrong dimension, sorry.


:smallbiggrin:

[boomwolf]

Undead do not breath.

Belkar would probably not find great issues with being undead as long as he is in control.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Undead do not breath.

Belkar would probably not find great issues with being undead as long as he is in control.

Well, if you want to follow a s strict interpretation of what the Oracle has said, Undead are still in this world, so being Undead doesn't solve all his problems.

[Darth Paul]

17 level doesn't matter, as The Giant hates True Res (see Index of Giant's Comments for specific wording), and I'd bet my future degree that it doesn't exist in OotS world.

Haley's words in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html) confirm there is True Resurrection in the Stickverse. What's that degree in? :smallbiggrin:

[dancrilis]

But what's to say Belkar will want to accept resurrection?

I suspect that this will be the case, he will have an afterlife that he likes and so will not return.

Having said that the Oracle could be wrong, until Rich makes a direct comment on Belker not beating the prophesy it is still potentially on the cards.

[Peelee]

Haley's words in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html) confirm there is True Resurrection in the Stickverse. What's that degree in? :smallbiggrin:

It's going to Kish, not you. Sorry!

[runeghost]

I'll throw out my pet theory again: just because Belkar will be dead doesn't mean he'll be out of the comic. Look at Roy and Eugene! Between Lee, Cedric, Nero, plus Sabine (and maybe Nale?) there's plenty of room for plot-relevant story left on the Outer Planes, and my money is on Belkar's afterlife being involved in it. Belkar isn't getting resurrected because he's got (plot) things to do after his death.

[LuisDantas]

Any other possibilities?

My favorite is that the OOtS will not even consider ressurrecting Belkar.

When you think about it, Ressurrection spells are quite troublesome. They cheapen death and cause a lot of unsolvable ethical dilemmas. If you are going to be spending diamonds and priest efforts to ressurrect people just because you have the means, at some point you have to explain how you are choosing the subjects.

Why would anyone attempt to ressurrect Belkar, who is not even much of an asset to society and is at least arguably meant to die for everyone's benefit, when there is literally no end to the list of better candidates? Many of the monarchs killed by Tarquin's schemes. Many of his former wives and their previous husbands, including Elan's mother. Roy's little brother. Any of the members of the Order of the Scribble, who might well make the difference in saving the world right now. Sangwaan, the seer of the Saphire Guard, killed in #429. Thanh, killed in #827. Solt Lorkyurg from #529.

There is no in-world reason to give Belkar precedence over any of them.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

My favorite is that the OOtS will not even consider ressurrecting Belkar.

When you think about it, Ressurrection spells are quite troublesome. They cheapen death and cause a lot of unsolvable ethical dilemmas. If you are going to be spending diamonds and priest efforts to ressurrect people just because you have the means, at some point you have to explain how you are choosing the subjects.

Why would anyone attempt to ressurrect Belkar, who is not even much of an asset to society and is at least arguably meant to die for everyone's benefit, when there is literally no end to the list of better candidates? Many of the monarchs killed by Tarquin's schemes. Many of his former wives and their previous husbands, including Elan's mother. Roy's little brother. Any of the members of the Order of the Scribble, who might well make the difference in saving the world right now. Sangwaan, the seer of the Saphire Guard, killed in #429. Thanh, killed in #827. Solt Lorkyurg from #529.

There is no in-world reason to give Belkar precedence over any of them.

I agree with this, except for one part. There is a reason not to resurrect Eric (Roy's little brother) because they tried it before and it didn't work, probably because he didn't want to leave Celestia. Trying again wouldn't work any better, so it would be best to try to resurrect someone they actually can.

[warrl]

Well, they are unlikely to Raise Dead any of the Order of the Scribble due to - for starters - lack of body parts. (They might have one of Girard's bones, but he apparently died of old age so can't be raised.)

The Order are among the highest-level characters currently alive in their universe. For assistance in the quest they would want to Raise Dead someone of similarly high level whom they can rely on to be on their side. There aren't a lot of such characters. Most of them will be far away from the action. Belkar is one of those characters and will be somewhere close to the action.

[evileeyore]

Belkar is he best thing in the comic right now.
That's like your opinion man.



The order will mourn his death.
They didn't mourn his slow torture under the curse, why would they mourn his death?



This comic just doesn't go dark that way.
His death would probably brighten the comic for most of the Order. The only character who'll mourn his passing is Mr. Scruffy.

[UristMcRandom]

My theory is that Belkar will either be unmade by the Snarl, or he'll somehow work his way up to the Chaotic Good afterlife and spend his days "...sipping single-malt scotch and smoking cigars rolled from poorly-worded legal documents (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html)" with Shojo (and possibly Mr. Scruffy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html)).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

My theory is that Belkar will either be unmade by the Snarl, or he'll somehow work his way up to the Chaotic Good afterlife and spend his days "...sipping single-malt scotch and smoking cigars rolled from poorly-worded legal documents (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html)" with Shojo (and possibly Mr. Scruffy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html)).

Mr. Scruffy is True Neutral, being an animal. That is probably not going to change.

[Angelalex242]

Eh. Trivial requests like bringing the soul of one animal to Arborea is relatively easy for the Eladrin. They can manage.

[SaintRidley]

I think Belkar dying shortly a full book before the final, with the rest of the Order never recognizing his heroic sacrifice, will be tragic and mar the rest of the comic.

This comic just doesn't go dark that way.

The comic that had one of its protagonists engage in a little casual genocide doesn't go dark like that.

https://singleblink.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/oh-yeah-sure-sarcasm.gif

[Ramien]

They will once he's dead. But what's to say Belkar will want to accept resurrection?

Then who's going to take care of the Scruffinator?

Now, if Mr. Scruffy died too, that might be a different story.

Personally, I'd like to see Belkar get an entrance interview like Roy did, except with a bit of a different twist.
Demon: Says here you've got a pet cat you are fond of.
:belkar: The Scruffinator's not just a pet!
Demon: Do you often sit with your cat on your lap, petting it while you discuss your plans of world domination? No? I think you might be going soft...
:belkar: *much stabbing and blood and hurting:
Decapitated Demon's head: My mistake, enjoy the Abyss.

[fallensaviour]

Mr. Scruffy is True Neutral, being an animal. That is probably not going to change.

i thought housecats were the exception and clocked in at chaotic evil?

[137beth]

i thought housecats were the exception and clocked in at chaotic evil?

Shh, that's a secret. You don't want to let the cat out of the bag:smallwink:

[evileeyore]

Shh, that's a secret. You don't want to let the cat out of the bag:smallwink:
Not without a soft, unprotected face to fling it at.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

i thought housecats were the exception and clocked in at chaotic evil?

That's what the commoners want us to think, but they are biased against them.

[Maryring]

Belkar's death will be permanent because he's a horrible person who murders people for fun. And the OOTS doesn't like people being murdered for fun. €

[cbarrett76]

So I go back to the wording of the Oracle that says something like "will draw his last breath" Oracles tend to like to be a little shifty in what they say. They want you to draw wrong conclusions. I think it more likely that Belkar will "draw his last breath" and become undead of some kind that does not breathe.



I suspect Belkar will die at the story climax and then the story will be over. We'll never see why Durkon doesn't raise him.

Though I think destroyed by the Snarl and respected as a global hero for it, to highlight the contrast with the Order of the Scribble erasing Kragor's sacrifice, would be a pretty reasonable story structure too.

[Peelee]

So I go back to the wording of the Oracle that says something like "will draw his last breath" Oracles tend to like to be a little shifty in what they say. They want you to draw wrong conclusions. I think it more likely that Belkar will "draw his last breath" and become undead of some kind that does not breathe.

That's been a common theory for a long time now. The common proponent against it, of course, is that Belkar would still be of this world. Remember, the Oracle made several comments, and all of them must be satisfied.

That being said, where do you get the idea that all oracles ever want you to draw the wrong conclusions? Right off the bat, the Oracle that foretold that Oedipus would kill his father did not speak in any uncertain terms, and what came to pass was exactly what the oracle said. It's not the oracle's fault that the king acted in a way that made it all come to pass. Even then, assuming that all oracles ever wanted to be shifty and have people draw wrong conclusions, it certainly seems as if this oracle is different, as the Adult Black Dragon sure seems to have gotten a definitive, straightforward answer, as well as the druid whose wife was cheating on him with his animal companion. Hell, even Belkar got a straightforward answer to his query (he asked if he would kill any of a list of people, including the Oracle. The Oracle answered, "yes." Belkar later killed the Oracle. I don't know how much more straightforward he could have been without Belkar phrasing his question better).

[Rodin]

That's been a common theory for a long time now. The common proponent against it, of course, is that Belkar would still be of this world. Remember, the Oracle made several comments, and all of them must be satisfied.

That being said, where do you get the idea that all oracles ever want you to draw the wrong conclusions? Right off the bat, the Oracle that foretold that Oedipus would kill his father did not speak in any uncertain terms, and what came to pass was exactly what the oracle said. It's not the oracle's fault that the king acted in a way that made it all come to pass. Even then, assuming that all oracles ever wanted to be shifty and have people draw wrong conclusions, it certainly seems as if this oracle is different, as the Adult Black Dragon sure seems to have gotten a definitive, straightforward answer, as well as the druid whose wife was cheating on him with his animal companion. Hell, even Belkar got a straightforward answer to his query (he asked if he would kill any of a list of people, including the Oracle. The Oracle answered, "yes." Belkar later killed the Oracle. I don't know how much more straightforward he could have been without Belkar phrasing his question better).

To be fair, this Oracle does have a history of shifty answers. When asked where Xykon was, he answered "In his throne room". Perfectly accurate, but entirely useless. Ditto his response to Belkar's poorly worded question.

The Oracle seems to vary between straight answers, mystic answers which you don't figure out until too late (Vaarsuvius), and outright trolling prophecies. Really, it's anybody's guess which Belkar's is. And that's ruling out classic prophecy screw-yous, like lying about a prophecy to make it come true (Cassandra from Red Dwarf did this).

Prophecies are fun!

[Wermut]

Well, if you want to follow a s strict interpretation of what the Oracle has said, Undead are still in this world, so being Undead doesn't solve all his problems.

Since the oracle tends to give ambiguous answers neither "He should savor his next birthday cake." nor "Belkar will draw his last breath-ever-before the end of the year." really rules out undead. Storywise it could even be interesting if Belkar would turn undead to even out the odds. Ressurection seems not to be an option with the wording "last breath-ever".

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Since the oracle tends to give ambiguous answers neither "He should savor his next birthday cake." nor "Belkar will draw his last breath-ever-before the end of the year." really rules out undead. Storywise it could even be interesting if Belkar would turn undead to even out the odds. Ressurection seems not to be an option with the wording "last breath-ever".
There is also "your pal isn't long for this world", which means that if he is undead, he will not be undead on this world. Personally, I tend to view all the euphemism for death as meaning "Belkar will die and not come back in anyway".

[Kish]

Since the oracle tends to give ambiguous answers
Insupportable.

(And please don't point to the strip he spent trolling Belkar as "proof" of this. That was trolling Belkar. The actual fulfillment of the prophecy in question was as straightforward as could be; Belkar caused the death of the Oracle by stabbing him with his daggers.)

[warrl]

There is also "your pal isn't long for this world", which means that if he is undead, he will not be undead on this world. Personally, I tend to view all the euphemism for death as meaning "Belkar will die and not come back in anyway".

Perhaps only certain forms of undead (vampires, ghosts, liches, ???) involve the actual soul of the deceased, and others only involve the body.

So Belkar's body could become undead. But Belkar himself would be gone.

One could argue about whether Belkar's undead body could breathe or not. (If no breathing, no speaking. Which would immediately clue everyone in the party, even Elan, that it wasn't really Belkar.)

[137beth]

Perhaps only certain forms of undead (vampires, ghosts, liches, ???) involve the actual soul of the deceased, and others only involve the body.

So Belkar's body could become undead. But Belkar himself would be gone.

One could argue about whether Belkar's undead body could breathe or not. (If no breathing, no speaking. Which would immediately clue everyone in the party, even Elan, that it wasn't really Belkar.)

Yes, it could mean that. I think it is more likely that the prophecy will come true in the obvious way, i.e., Belkar will die and not come back at all.

[Kish]

Would it really make a difference?

That is, if Belkar dies, Belkar's soul is gone forever, and then Xykon casts a spell and Belkar's corpse shambles after Roy moaning "Braaaaaaains," would that really be meaningfully different from Belkar just staying down?

[Peelee]

Would it really make a difference?

That is, if Belkar dies, Belkar's soul is gone forever, and then Xykon casts a spell and Belkar's corpse shambles after Roy moaning "Braaaaaaains," would that really be meaningfully different from Belkar just staying down?

Exactly as I'd have said, had I been on earlier. Only thing I can add to this is, assuming Belkar dies and returns as a sapient undead that has no ties with Belkar's soul, that character is by definition not Belkar. At that point, you're just having a brand new character enter the fold, and the only connection between him and Belkar would be cosmetic. How is this a good argument for those who like Belkar and want him to stay around?

[martianmister]

Would it really make a difference?

That is, if Belkar dies, Belkar's soul is gone forever, and then Xykon casts a spell and Belkar's corpse shambles after Roy moaning "Braaaaaaains," would that really be meaningfully different from Belkar just staying down?

Yes. For me, at least...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Would it really make a difference?

That is, if Belkar dies, Belkar's soul is gone forever, and then Xykon casts a spell and Belkar's corpse shambles after Roy moaning "Braaaaaaains," would that really be meaningfully different from Belkar just staying down?

I would absolutely there is no difference. Thank you for making this point.

People have come with theories involving Belkar going to a plane besides this one where he doesn't need to breathe or eat* (or fund his IRA, I suppose) but I view that as even more unlikely than him becoming Undead.

*Aside from going to one of the afterlives, I mean.

[Reddish Mage]

Insupportable.

(And please don't point to the strip he spent trolling Belkar as "proof" of this. That was trolling Belkar. The actual fulfillment of the prophecy in question was as straightforward as could be; Belkar caused the death of the Oracle by stabbing him with his daggers.)

Indeed, although the Oracle's answers are not always useful (its arguable whether they ever actually have proven useful), they have been right on the money.

[veti]

Indeed, although the Oracle's answers are not always useful (its arguable whether they ever actually have proven useful), they have been right on the money.

Correct. They're not ambiguous. What they are is useless. Belkar was right (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) about that - the Oracle will go out of his way, if necessary, to make sure nothing useful can be inferred from what he says. The only person who's come close to benefitting from their prophecy is Haley, and even she didn't explicitly refer to the prophecy when it happened, meaning she may never have thought of it then.

(OK, there's also the black dragon. But the Oracle's relationship with reptilians, particularly evil draconic ones, may be altogether more cordial than with mammalian clients. And we don't know what, specifically, she asked.)

Roy knows this, so he asked a tortuously convoluted question that (he thought) must give useful information. But the Oracle still didn't tell him what he wanted to know - only what he asked.

So why is the Oracle so keen on telling Roy, in particular, about Belkar's impending demise, even though he hasn't been asked about it? The only thing I feel confident to infer is that Roy won't have the opportunity to do anything about it, or to benefit from the information in any way.

[Gnoman]

Roy knows this, so he asked a tortuously convoluted question that (he thought) must give useful information. But the Oracle still didn't tell him what he wanted to know - only what he asked.


The Oracle tried VERY VERY hard to get Roy to rephrase the question in a way that the right answer could be given. Obviously, the ORacle can only answer the question that is asked.

[veti]

The Oracle tried VERY VERY hard to get Roy to rephrase the question in a way that the right answer could be given. Obviously, the ORacle can only answer the question that is asked.

Completely not true. The Oracle could have given Roy any information he chose to give. If he were limited to the questions he's asked, we wouldn't even be having this thread. The Oracle disapproved of Roy's semantics, so he briefly mocked him, then gave the answer that he didn't have to distort any further.

[Kish]

Sure, he could have told Roy, "Xykon's going to Azure City," outside of the question.

And then Roy would have forgotten it when he left the Sunken Valley.

If the Oracle's answers were always useless, whether Haley would have her speech back is debatable (she never explicitly says, either way, whether "I'm not looking the gift horse in the mouth 'cause the Oracle said not to" is part of her motivation for turning off her brain and going on her date with Nale). The fact that Roy would not have learned Xykon's name or location the way he did is not.

[veti]

Sure, he could have told Roy, "Xykon's going to Azure City," outside of the question.

And then Roy would have forgotten it when he left the Sunken Valley.

Again, that's entirely the Oracle's call. He's not limited in giving out information that can be remembered outside. He can turn that on at will (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html).


If the Oracle's answers were always useless, whether Haley would have her speech back is debatable (she never explicitly says, either way, whether "I'm not looking the gift horse in the mouth 'cause the Oracle said not to" is part of her motivation for turning off her brain and going on her date with Nale). The fact that Roy would not have learned Xykon's name or location the way he did is not.

Roy had to torture (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html) that information out of him.

[evileeyore]

Again, that's entirely the Oracle's call. He's not limited in giving out information that can be remembered outside. He can turn that on at will (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html).
You are completely misapplying what occurred in that strip.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

You are completely misapplying what occurred in that strip.

It seems that what Veti is saying is that the Oracle could, in theory, at any point give a free prophecy so that the person would remember it. The Oracle could have chosen to give him a prophecy "on the house". He didn't, probably because he doesn't care about Roy all that much, but he could have.

[veti]

You are completely misapplying what occurred in that strip.

How so? What that strip shows is that there's no magic compelling the Oracle to answer precisely the questions he's asked, no more and no less, in the Special Green Speechbubbles - he can say whatever he likes.

If he gives uninformative answers - and the evidence is overwhelming that he does, consistently, do that - it's not because he's forced to. It's just because he's a git who actively hates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0332.html) the 'poor sad pathetic lonely unclean annoying disgustingly-hairy mouth-breathing ape-people (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)' that he's taking money from.

[Jasdoif]

How so? What that strip shows is that there's no magic compelling the Oracle to answer precisely the questions he's asked, no more and no less, in the Special Green Speechbubbles - he can say whatever he likes.I'm pretty sure "Not long for this world? What are you saying?" could be seen as constituting a question (or two).

In any case, I'm not convinced he can control the exact wording in the "Special Green Speechbubbles". Otherwise, I think he'd be able to get out of getting chewed into tiny pieces in response to an answer he gave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html). I suppose it's possible he enjoys being chewed up (but not stabbed with dulled daggers), but it doesn't seem particularly likely.

[Kish]

I do think the Oracle's future getting chewed up has more to do with an unwillingness to deceive*, even when it would get him out of trouble, than with an inability to do so. (If he has to speak the truth in the green glowies...why wouldn't he just use a wand to create an illusion that he was in the green glowies, and say whatever he wished?)

Of course, unwillingness to deceive still means Belkar is genuinely not long for this world.


Roy had to torture (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html) that information out of him.
And therefore it was useless and the Oracle is not the source of the Order's knowledge of Xykon's name and location? Or perhaps your initial claim was, at best, far too broad?

*And no, trolling Belkar wasn't deception; it was trolling.

[SuperAwkward]

I like the "the Snarl will undo Belkar as he proves truly heroic at the end, undoing his soul" theory. It is a nice mix of proving his character develop was not for naught and appropriate level of seriousness.

[evileeyore]

How so?
Yeah... I missed that bit and was only focusing on the Banishment allowing Roy to remember everything. My bad.

[Forum Explorer]

My theory is that Belkar dies on the Snarl's planet and is thus 'stranded' as the current planet creates a prison that prevents divine anything from reaching it.

[Peelee]

How so? What that strip shows is that there's no magic compelling the Oracle to answer precisely the questions he's asked, no more and no less, in the Special Green Speechbubbles - he can say whatever he likes.

If he gives uninformative answers - and the evidence is overwhelming that he does, consistently, do that - it's not because he's forced to. It's just because he's a git who actively hates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0332.html) the 'poor sad pathetic lonely unclean annoying disgustingly-hairy mouth-breathing ape-people (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)' that he's taking money from.

His answers to Belkar, Elan, Durkon, and Roy (during that same scene) were all very informative, bias or no. And disparaging remarks aside, he's only shown contempt for Belkar, who has made an art of killing Kobolds, and Roy and Durkon, for holding him out a window. Yeah, what a git.

[veti]

His answers to Belkar, Elan, Durkon, and Roy (during that same scene) were all very informative, bias or no. And disparaging remarks aside, he's only shown contempt for Belkar, who has made an art of killing Kobolds, and Roy and Durkon, for holding him out a window. Yeah, what a git.

I can only say that your idea of "very informative" is not mine. Which of those four came out of that scene with a more accurate impression of the future than they went in?

Yes, what he said was correct (as far as we know, although 50% of those answers have yet to be fulfilled). Maybe even truthful. But "informative"?

Mind, I don't blame him for being unhelpful. He's just following the ancient tradition of prophets and oracles since basically forever. If he'd (e.g.) told Durkon to be wary of any albino reptilian clerics he happened to run into, then the future might have been changed, and he'd have created a paradox. It's only 'safe' to foretell the future if the person you're predicting to can't (knowingly) change it.

[Peelee]

I can only say that your idea of "very informative" is not mine. Which of those four came out of that scene with a more accurate impression of the future than they went in?

Yes, what he said was correct (as far as we know, although 50% of those answers have yet to be fulfilled). Maybe even truthful. But "informative"?

Mind, I don't blame him for being unhelpful. He's just following the ancient tradition of prophets and oracles since basically forever. If he'd (e.g.) told Durkon to be wary of any albino reptilian clerics he happened to run into, then the future might have been changed, and he'd have created a paradox. It's only 'safe' to foretell the future if the person you're predicting to can't (knowingly) change it.

Elan, Durkon, Belkar, and Roy were all satisfied with their predictions (well, Roy not so much when he realized his mistake, but the memory charm fixed that). So I'd say your definition of informative differs from theirs, too.

elan got to know his story would have a happy ending. Durkon got confirmation he was going home. Roy got to know which of two gates Xykon would hit first. Belkar got to know he would kill one of a specific group of people. Maybe you could define "informative" for me in a way that apparently does not convey information requested? Sure, they could have been more informative, but at that point you're just splitting hairs.

[Miriel]

I can only say that your idea of "very informative" is not mine. Which of those four came out of that scene with a more accurate impression of the future than they went in?

Yes, what he said was correct (as faas we know, although 50% of those answers have yet to be fulfilled). Maybe even truthful. But "informative"?
- Roy learned 1) where Xykon was, and later, 2) that X would go to Girard's Gate first of the two gates, which allowed him to go there instead of going to Kraagor's Gate to stop Xykon. Without the prophecy, and given that the gate was unguarded, this was sort of useful.
- Haley did not learn more about the future, but she used the prophecy in real life to solve her problem. See 568 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html).
- Roy's father learned that his master's killer was named Xykon.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Elan, Durkon, Belkar, and Roy were all satisfied with their predictions (well, Roy not so much when he realized his mistake, but the memory charm fixed that). So I'd say your definition of informative differs from theirs, too.

elan got to know his story would have a happy ending. Durkon got confirmation he was going home. Roy got to know which of two gates Xykon would hit first. Belkar got to know he would kill one of a specific group of people. Maybe you could define "informative" for me in a way that apparently does not convey information requested? Sure, they could have been more informative, but at that point you're just splitting hairs.

I'm going to agree with this. As far as prophecies go, they could have been far less informative, but instead they give some fairly good amounts of information. Elan's answered his question just about perfectly, since he didn't ask for many details. Durkon's left out a detail, but "posthumously" was still give plenty of information to Durkon, as opposed to, say, "on a ship". Roy got plenty of information, he just asked the wrong question. Haley's is the only one I would say wasn't that informative, but she managed to find some information in it.

[...]

Actually, Belkar becoming an entity of the lower planes answers all these questions, and makes perfect sense considering his personality. He is "not of this world," "this world" being the Prime Material Plane, since he's already dead, he doesn't need to fund his IRA, a number of scourcebooks talk both about fiends not needing bodily needs like food, water, etc. and souls of deceased mortals becoming fiends, so that makes sense. Last of all, demons are inherently murderous madmen, so that fits great with The Belkster's personality.

[smuchmuch]

I'm going to side with the 'Dies, OOts never bothers to resurect him' party.

In Girard's pyramid when the runes created for Roy, Haley and Elan a vision of a happy ending, the very first thing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html)that happened in this scenario was Belkar dying (rather anti climatically might I add) and in the continuation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html), oh sure they are gathering around his memorial but they are harly busting themselves looking for a cleric to resurect him.

And why would they ? It's a huge load of their mind, they know once this whole thing is over he on't revert to go pointlessly murder people or whatever is it he would be doing, don't have to take him out themselves and since he died while fighting for the good cause they can even shed a few crocodile tears about it (except for Eln who might tbe the only one genuinely sad)


and souls of deceased mortals becoming fiends, so that makes sense. Last of all, demons are inherently murderous madmen, so that fits great with The Belkster's personality.

I'm wondering if that happens in the OOtsverse aftrlife(ves). Those 'freshly snipped dead pedophiles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html)' seemed more punished for their sins than on their way to demonhood.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm wondering if that happens in the OOtsverse aftrlife(ves). Those 'freshly snipped dead pedophiles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html)' seemed more punished for their sins than on their way to demonhood.
It would depend on which afterlife, since they are based on the D&D afterlife. In the abyss, if I remember right, the dead souls become really low ranking demons. It may be that the choir of pedophiles was in a different afterlife.

[Reddish Mage]

Elan, Durkon, Belkar, and Roy were all satisfied with their predictions (well, Roy not so much when he realized his mistake, but the memory charm fixed that). So I'd say your definition of informative differs from theirs, too.

elan got to know his story would have a happy ending. Durkon got confirmation he was going home. Roy got to know which of two gates Xykon would hit first. Belkar got to know he would kill one of a specific group of people. Maybe you could define "informative" for me in a way that apparently does not convey information requested? Sure, they could have been more informative, but at that point you're just splitting hairs.

Of all the prophecies, only Roy's could be arguable to have been of any practical use, and then the party might have headed to Girard's gate next anyway.

Edit: Oh and given what the fiends did to V, it probably would have been better if the party never showed up.

[Peelee]

Of all the prophecies, only Roy's could be arguable to have been of any practical use, and then the party might have headed to Girard's gate next anyway.

Edit: Oh and given what the fiends did to V, it probably would have been better if the party never showed up.

Who said anything about practical use? Even in classical prophecies (the very straightforward Oedipal prophecy is always a great example), it's not necessarily for practical use. The claim was that they weren't informative, which is false.

[orrion]

Of all the prophecies, only Roy's could be arguable to have been of any practical use, and then the party might have headed to Girard's gate next anyway.

Edit: Oh and given what the fiends did to V, it probably would have been better if the party never showed up.

Only Roy bothered to ask a question that had any relevance to what the party as a whole was trying to do, so it makes sense that his answer had the most practical use.

I'd also argue Haley's prophecy was practical. It told her how to solve her problem. Durkon, meanwhile, walked out of there in the best mood he'd been in the entire comic.

Heh. Come on. Xykon, Redcloak, and the Monster would have been more than enough to handle the Draketooths, and Redcloak probably would have made the save against the final illusion while Xykon wouldn't have been affected at all.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Of all the prophecies, only Roy's could be arguable to have been of any practical use, and then the party might have headed to Girard's gate next anyway.

Edit: Oh and given what the fiends did to V, it probably would have been better if the party never showed up.

Well, if you mean only Roy's helped the Order out, then you might be right. I would argue that Haley's prophecy also helped her resolve some of her problems, so I think that would be two. However, the question isn't how much use were they, but how informative were they, and most of the prophecies (especially compared to the metaphors often used by Oracles in other works) were pretty clear.

[Avian Overlord]

I don't why Belkar's death will be permanent (though I think it will be). If I had to guess it would be unavailability of the corpse though. However, I don't think Belkar will leave the story when he dies. Given certain comments by the Giant in NCftPB, I strongly suspect the comic will continue to follow Belkar in his afterlife, and that he will probably become involved with plot relevant things going on in the lower planes.

[...]

Guys, the oracle has always told the truth. We should not argue about whether or not he is helpful, but rather whether or not his fortunes are meant to be taken literally.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Guys, the oracle has always told the truth. We should not argue about whether or not he is helpful, but rather whether or not his fortunes are meant to be taken literally.

Well, if you want to take the argument in this direction, I would say that it should not be taken literally, and what the Oracle is saying is that Belkar will die and will not come back.

[...]

Well, if you want to take the argument in this direction, I would say that it should not be taken literally, and what the Oracle is saying is that Belkar will die and will not come back.

Are you sure? The explanation for V's prophecy in DStP was, like, five paragraphs long and not at all what she/he expected.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Are you sure? The explanation for V's prophecy in DStP was, like, five paragraphs long and not at all what she/he expected.

I don't see what that has to do with it being literal or not.

[...]

I don't see what that has to do with it being literal or not.

Okay, I worded that wrong. I meant that like V didn't really get godlike arcane power, Belkar might fulfill all of the oracles predictions and still be a major part of the plot.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Okay, I worded that wrong. I meant that like V didn't really get godlike arcane power, Belkar might fulfill all of the oracles predictions and still be a major part of the plot.

Actually, that would be a better argument toward predictions not being fulfilled literally, although I would say Vaarsuvius arguably achieved "complete and total ultimate arcane power".

[...]

Actually, that would be a better argument toward predictions not being fulfilled literally, although I would say Vaarsuvius arguably achieved "complete and total ultimate arcane power".

Sorry about that, I didn't see the "not" in your first comment. But Belkar could still die, not come back, and be part of the plot as something (like my demon idea) that still meets the oracle's qualifictaions. Also, I agree, V did acheive "complete and total ultimate arcane power." It's just that Rich was showing us how it could be interpreted, which means that the Oracle is not always direct.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Sorry about that, I didn't see the "not" in your first comment. But Belkar could still die, not come back, and be part of the plot as something (like my demon idea) that still meets the oracle's qualifictaions. Also, I agree, V did acheive "complete and total ultimate arcane power." It's just that Rich was showing us how it could be interpreted, which means that the Oracle is not always direct.

Oh, I definitely think that Belkar will still be part of the plot. In fact, Rich said in the commentary for NCftPB that if Belkar had died in that book, there would be strip of him in the afterlife, something that could happen re.

[...]

Oh, I definitely think that Belkar will still be part of the plot. In fact, Rich said in the commentary for NCftPB that if Belkar had died in that book, there would be strip of him in the afterlife, something that could happen re.

Well, now I have no idea why we're arguing.

[veti]

Who said anything about practical use?

I did (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361347-Why-will-the-Belksters-death-be-permanent&p=17770609#post17770609).


The claim was that they weren't informative, which is false.

Informative: adj, "providing useful or interesting information". The Oracle deliberately phrased all those answers to provide the absolute minimum of "useful or interesting information" that he could, while still reasonably claiming to be "answering" their questions.

That's the opposite of "informative".

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, now I have no idea why we're arguing.

I think we just miscommunicated. Looks like we pretty much agree.

[Peelee]

I did (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361347-Why-will-the-Belksters-death-be-permanent&p=17770609#post17770609).
Oh really?

Correct. They're not ambiguous. What they are is useless.
Verifiably wrong. The prediction that Xykon would be within a specific range of Girard's Gate first, for example, was incredibly valuable; it just wasn't the most valuable information at the time.

Belkar was right (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) about that - the Oracle will go out of his way, if necessary, to make sure nothing useful can be inferred from what he says.
Wrong again. Belkar's prophecy had not yet come true. It later did come true. His complaint was effectively that it didn't come true fast enough; until all the characters he named or Belkar himself are dead and unable to come back to life, he cannot objectively say the prophecy was bogus.

The only person who's come close to benefitting from their prophecy is Haley, and even she didn't explicitly refer to the prophecy when it happened, meaning she may never have thought of it then.
Eugene discovered Xykon's identity from the Oracle. Roy was able to plan which gate to go for after the fall of Azure City. Two examples of other people benefiting from prophecies. Also, "benefit" is a wonky word here. Does the future druid benefit from knowing his wife is cheating on him? If he does, then I can argue that Durkon and Elan benefit from knowing they will return to the homeland and have a happy ending, respectively. If he does not, then one does not need to benefit from a prophecy to have gotten worth out of the prophecy, which again weakens your case.


(OK, there's also the black dragon. But the Oracle's relationship with reptilians, particularly evil draconic ones, may be altogether more cordial than with mammalian clients. And we don't know what, specifically, she asked.
Nothing to be said here, except I'm still waiting on you saying the prophecy had to be practical. Also, come to think of it, why would the prophecy have to be practical? The objectively accurate Oracle told Oepidus' father (seriously, always a great example) that Oedipus would kill him. By your logic, this isn't practical, so the Oracle is bunk. Except we know that said Oracle was completely accurate. So,
A.) You have yet to say the prophecies must be practical, and
B.) If and when you do, please explain why they must be practical, aside from your insistence that they do?


Roy knows this, so he asked a tortuously convoluted question that (he thought) must give useful information. But the Oracle still didn't tell him what he wanted to know - only what he asked.
The Oracle isn't obligated to tell Roy what he knows; he is obligated to tell Roy the answer to what he asked. I seriously don't understand your objection to this.


So why is the Oracle so keen on telling Roy, in particular, about Belkar's impending demise, even though he hasn't been asked about it? The only thing I feel confident to infer is that Roy won't have the opportunity to do anything about it, or to benefit from the information in any way.
The Oracle knows Belkar will kill him. The Oracle likely knows Belkar delights in torturing, murdering, and desecrating the corpses of kobolds, the Oracle's race. It's pretty obvious here that the Oracle has particular disgust for Belkar. The Oracle also openly states that the reason for the memory charm is because he is flippant with his knowledge of the future. So why in the hell would you expect him to not delight in Belkar's impending demise and mention it on a constant basis? This isn't a freaking plastic Zoltar machine. The Oracle is a sapient being. He can have character. His particular character openly hates Belkar, and acts as such. This isn't a problem with the Oracle, it's a part of who he is.


Informative: adj, "providing useful or interesting information". The Oracle deliberately phrased all those answers to provide the absolute minimum of "useful or interesting information" that he could, while still reasonably claiming to be "answering" their questions.

That's the opposite of "informative".
So despite his obvious attempts at getting Roy to rephrase his question so as to get the answer he was actually wanting, you're saying that he Oracle deliberately phrased his answer to the incredibly specific question in a way that would give as little information as possible? If so, there's no point in me continuing to debate any further, as you're basically holding your ears to your head and loudly singing to yourself until you "win." You want to hate the Oracle, so you do. If that's the case, nothing I can say can change your mind. And trust me, you can change mine, if you can come up with arguments that aren't openly and obviously flawed and inaccurate.

[...]

Guys, does it really matter if the oracle is informative? all we have to know is that he tells the truth (or in Haley's case, he tells her what she needs to know).

[137beth]

Guys, does it really matter if the oracle is informative? all we have to know is that he tells the truth (or in Haley's case, he tells her what she needs to know).

Well, there was still the debate over whether the Oracle was actually capable of lying in his prophecy.
I think it's safe to assume that the prophecies he makes on-panel are true, otherwise the plot device would just be a red herring.

[FallenFallcrest]

By the point that he dies in the adventure, I don't think they will have the time or resources to stop and bring him back to life. And there are many ways that could prevent him from coming back to life, depending on how he dies. Or he might just not want to come back.

[AbyssStalker]

I think that Belkar and possibly Mr. Scruffy will die performing a heroic sacrifice after having reached a true alignment change to chaotic good, and live in the afterlife catering as a chef to Shojo and Mr. Scruffy, like as was shown in his illusory paradise, another theory is that Elan won't have a happy ending after all, and in a tragic twist the oracle was referring to the "happy ending" in strip 887. Just my crackpot theories however.

It would be interesting if in the final confrontation with Redcloak both Belkar and Durkon died or are dying and they only had enough resources to revive one of them and Belkar informs them to revive Durkon, I'm not familiar with Dungeons and Dragons mechanics so I am not sure how it would happen with no cleric, maybe Elan becomes a cleric of Banjo and has to decide, which would make since showing him look saddest at Belkar's funeral in his happy ending, I'm also not sure how Banjo could give enough power to resurrect either, maybe Thor see's inviting Banjo into the pantheon as a way to help Durkon be revived. Or he performs the sacrifice to help purge the vampire from Durkon using revive and Mr. Scruffy performs a sacrifice protecting him again but dies, don't know. The last theories are just a VERY wild guess though.

But the first theory is the one I think likely, thanks for reading. Yay for first post.

P.S. Had to mention this after I posted this to start with, May also be reading too much but I see the cross shaped wound on Elan's cheek and him flying using what appears to be the same cleric flight spell used on him by Durkon in a cutaway strip earlier in the series. But this is negligible since multiple things shown in that scene won't happen.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

another theory is that Elan won't have a happy ending after all, and in a tragic twist the oracle was referring to the "happy ending" in strip 887. Just my crackpot theories however.

This one seems particularly unlikely, as it wouldn't really match with the wording of the prophecy.

[Peelee]

This one seems particularly unlikely, as it wouldn't really match with the wording of the prophecy.

Also The Giant openly said in one if the books that the purpose of that prophecy was to reassure the readers that though it though it may get really dark (like Durkon getting vampirized), things will turn out ok in the end. So I'm going with the "Elan gets a real happy ending" theory.

[AbyssStalker]

Also The Giant openly said in one if the books that the purpose of that prophecy was to reassure the readers that though it though it may get really dark (like Durkon getting vampirized), things will turn out ok in the end. So I'm going with the "Elan gets a real happy ending" theory.

Ok That's good news, I was just pitching it out there, I'm hoping Elan gets a happy ending as-well, and think that it is more likely that he will, I just couldn't dismiss the possibility that he doesn't.

[Timy]

I have a similar question :

Do we have a reason why Kraagor was not resurected (or at least reincarnated by Lirian) ?

[AbyssStalker]

If I am correct he was hit by the snarl and unable to be revived, not sure if the snarl actually destroys the soul or it goes to the other side of the gate however.

[Peelee]

If I am correct he was hit by the snarl and unable to be revived, not sure if the snarl actually destroys the soul or it goes to the other side of the gate however.

Very true. Technically, we can't even be sure he's dead; I wouldn't put money on him still being alive, but he would be the likeliest source of what is really going on with the gates, if he is alive.

[orrion]

I have a similar question :

Do we have a reason why Kraagor was not resurected (or at least reincarnated by Lirian) ?

Most likely scenario is that he was unmade by the Snarl and so there's nothing to resurrect or reincarnate.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I have a similar question :

Do we have a reason why Kraagor was not resurected (or at least reincarnated by Lirian) ?

I remember debating this as part of an argument. I believe the answer is that his soul was obliterated by the Snarl. Another possibility (that is less likely) is that he is alive in the Snarl world.

[Porthos]

The answer is: We haven't been told why by the narrartive.

What we do have is a lot of guesses, with the most reasonable being unmade by the Snarl. But at the moment, that's still just a guess.

[Mastikator]

Durkula will kill him, dispose of the body, and Durkon (if he is ever restored to life) never reaches 17th level.

This, and the OotS will do nothing, as they've stupidly been deceived by a monster.

[wumpus]

This, and the OotS will do nothing, as they've stupidly been deceived by a monster.

Seems that way. Best guess is that Belkar either has less hit points than Roy after his battle with Xykon (unlikely) or that Rich will assume that hitting the ground at terminal velocity is terminal. Can Belkar survive hitting the ground (if he lives he has a good chance surviving* unless they are over sea with or without points in survival)? A better question would be, now that Belkar has obeyed the "jump off the ship" command, is he free to climb back on board? I would think so, but his eyes say otherwise. Best guess is that he is waiting for the next command (and will be free to climb on board when the spell runs out).

I wouldn't be surprised if he climbs back on board (although you would think that Durkula would think of that). But Belkar is still going to die soon, and his death will be permanent. Falling off the ship (unless it is over the ocean) seems insufficiently permanent.

* this is the Belkster. Surviving in harsh conditions is part of his nature.

[orrion]

This, and the OotS will do nothing, as they've stupidly been deceived by a monster.

I don't know about "stupidly."


Seems that way. Best guess is that Belkar either has less hit points than Roy after his battle with Xykon (unlikely) or that Rich will assume that hitting the ground at terminal velocity is terminal. Can Belkar survive hitting the ground (if he lives he has a good chance surviving* unless they are over sea with or without points in survival)? A better question would be, now that Belkar has obeyed the "jump off the ship" command, is he free to climb back on board? I would think so, but his eyes say otherwise. Best guess is that he is waiting for the next command (and will be free to climb on board when the spell runs out).

Um. Tarquin falling out of the airship seems to indicate that it wouldn't be terminal. There's no reason to think Rich will suddenly violate the max falling damage rule when the falling characters so far have seemed to adhere to it.



I wouldn't be surprised if he climbs back on board (although you would think that Durkula would think of that). But Belkar is still going to die soon, and his death will be permanent. Falling off the ship (unless it is over the ocean) seems insufficiently permanent.


The way the text is structured makes me lean toward Belkar having already climbed back on board because the characters are just sort of nonchalantly standing around, but he could still be dangling too. Eventually, though, he'll climb back up or Roy and co. will help him back up.

I seriously doubt that this was the death scene just because we see Belkar alive at the end of the last comic. Seeing him dead or a cliffhanger (heh) would be far more likely if he were going to die.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Seems that way. Best guess is that Belkar either has less hit points than Roy after his battle with Xykon (unlikely) or that Rich will assume that hitting the ground at terminal velocity is terminal. Can Belkar survive hitting the ground (if he lives he has a good chance surviving* unless they are over sea with or without points in survival)? A better question would be, now that Belkar has obeyed the "jump off the ship" command, is he free to climb back on board? I would think so, but his eyes say otherwise. Best guess is that he is waiting for the next command (and will be free to climb on board when the spell runs out).

I wouldn't be surprised if he climbs back on board (although you would think that Durkula would think of that). But Belkar is still going to die soon, and his death will be permanent. Falling off the ship (unless it is over the ocean) seems insufficiently permanent.

* this is the Belkster. Surviving in harsh conditions is part of his nature.

In the last panel of 957, his eyes have gone back to normal, indicating that he is no longer being dominated.

[137beth]

Seems that way. Best guess is that Belkar either has less hit points than Roy after his battle with Xykon (unlikely) or that Rich will assume that hitting the ground at terminal velocity is terminal. Can Belkar survive hitting the ground (if he lives he has a good chance surviving* unless they are over sea with or without points in survival)? A better question would be, now that Belkar has obeyed the "jump off the ship" command, is he free to climb back on board? I would think so, but his eyes say otherwise. Best guess is that he is waiting for the next command (and will be free to climb on board when the spell runs out).

I wouldn't be surprised if he climbs back on board (although you would think that Durkula would think of that). But Belkar is still going to die soon, and his death will be permanent. Falling off the ship (unless it is over the ocean) seems insufficiently permanent.

* this is the Belkster. Surviving in harsh conditions is part of his nature.

I'm guessing he has already climbed back up. Either way, he can survive hitting the ground at terminal velocity, since he is a high level D&D character. It wasn't life-threatening.

[Peelee]

But Belkar is still going to die soon, and his death will be permanent. Falling off the ship (unless it is over the ocean) seems insufficiently permanent..

In addition to the other points made, so long as the Order doesn't have access to his body or a True Res spell, any death is sufficiently permanent.

[orrion]

In addition to the other points made, so long as the Order doesn't have access to his body or a True Res spell, any death is sufficiently permanent.

I just tend to think they won't want to bring him back when he dies (as shown in the pyramid illusion), and certainly nobody else has any reason to.

[Peelee]

I just tend to think they won't want to bring him back when he dies (as shown in the pyramid illusion), and certainly nobody else has any reason to.

The pyramid illusion had Durkon alive, meaning Roy's breakdown against Belkar was justified and he was right. Also, Xykon was defeated. In their real life, though, Belkar told the truth and helped pull the party back together, and X is still running around. Roy needs all the help he can get, and a high level party member isn't something to scoff at.

[rodneyAnonymous]

The prophecy was not that Elan would get a happy ending, it was that this story would have a happy ending (from Elan's perspective). Pretty fine distinction, but a lot of arguments depend on that error. (Source (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), although Roy and Elan himself make the same mistake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html) a few strips later.) For example, the pyramid ultimate final boss illusion could not have been the fulfillment of that prophecy, not even in a tricksy ironic twist way, because it wasn't the end of this story.

This has already been addressed above by citing authorial intent, but the canon dialogue matches that intent, no need to speculate about motives.

[Angelalex242]

'Will this story have a happy ending?'

"Yes...for you, at least."

A happy ending for Elan (at least) doesn't necessarily imply a happy ending to the story for anyone else except most likely Haley. Because it's impractical that he'd have a happily ever after without her.

[Peelee]

A happy ending for Elan (at least) doesn't necessarily imply a happy ending to the story for anyone else

No, but the Giant's in-book commentary stating the reason Elan asked that question was to reassure the readers that things would get really dark*, things would be ok in the enddoes seem to imply a happy ending for more than just Elan (and by extension, likely Haley). I'll cop to that doesn't mean anyone other than Elan will get a happy ending, but it does seem to imply it.

*I've now assumed this was specifically referring to Durkon's vampirization, and the aftermath that may or may not entail. Potentially also Belkar's death, but I'm still unsure on that yet.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

For the same reason Miko stayed dead: Because no one important enough said "We need that person back."

Hinjo probably could have had Miko raised, but he didn't seem to think that she would have been great enough of an asset (level 16+ fighter/monk, with appropriate equipment) to outweigh her liability (bat-poop insane!).

Right now, most of the Order won't be too badly broken up if and when Belkar dies. Elan maybe, and possibly Durkon. But Durkula, Roy, Haley and Vaarsuvius won't be bothered too much.

Since Durkon can see that Belkar is trying to prove that Durkon's body is now under new management he might have an opportunity to force the High Priest of Hel aside when Belkar goes down, but I'm not sure.

[AbyssStalker]

I still don't see how the Oracle's answer rules out the possibility that the illusion was not able to be the happy ending referred to...

If he had said "Will This story end happily" it would take out the possibility, but he says "A happy ending" it seems like any happy ending fake or no would do.
Not trying to seem idiotic or anything that is just how it comes off to me, lull everybody into a false sense of security for it to break seems like a pretty common oracle M.O.

Aside from that if Elan died I think he would wind up in chaotic good heaven and reuniting with Haley seems like a pretty good ending for him, possibly joined by Belkar if his he falls prey to alignment change, if that happened they would probably be able to visit Shojo and Mr.Scruffy and Belkar would get his illusion ending after all.

P.S. Gotta ask two things though, If redcloak dies I wonder who will be the one to kill him, I think it will be Xykon/MitD or the Snarl, and do you think Vaarsuvius can escape his apparently inescapable consequences of the innocents he killed by making a heroic sacrifice to stop the snarl possibly while trying to repair/create another gate?

Personally I think it would be fitting if Durkula/Durkon donned the redcloak and uses its knowledge in conjunction with his own un/holy power and Vaarsuvius's magical ability to shift the rift into the I.F.C.C.'s living room, I think it would be glorious if it killed them, they were just using it as a distraction and it ends up being their downfall.

Again I would like to express that I am not arguing that the illusion ending is more likely to be the ending referred to by the Oracle, I am merely debating the possibility of it, like most of the other theories I discuss.

[ti'esar]

I will admit, I remain completely baffled that anyone is attempting to argue that the story has been over for about 70 strips now.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I still don't see how the Oracle's answer rules out the possibility that the illusion was not able to be the happy ending referred to...
Because the illusion wasn't the ending of the story. I'm not sure how one could argue that.

:elan:: Will this story have a happy ending?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif: Yes- for you, at least.

[Aedilred]

For the same reason Miko stayed dead: Because no one important enough said "We need that person back."

Hinjo probably could have had Miko raised, but he didn't seem to think that she would have been great enough of an asset (level 16+ fighter/monk, with appropriate equipment) to outweigh her liability (bat-poop insane!).

While it is indeed doubtful that Hinjo would have had Miko raised, under the circumstances, he wasn't in a position to do so in any case. She was killed shortly before he fled the city, and he never had a chance to recover her body (which landed in a hobgoblin-controlled area).

[Kish]

I will admit, I remain completely baffled that anyone is attempting to argue that the story has been over for about 70 strips now.
I want you to know I considered sigging that.

Words mean things, people. Vaarsuvius' prophecy did not, any number of hypothesis posted on this forum to the contrary, turn out to mean, "Vaarsuvius will speak four or more words, to zero or more beings, for reasons, and at some point after that will do something." Elan's prophecy involves happiness and the story ending, it will not turn out to mean either something horrible or something in the middle of the story.

[Mastikator]

I don't know about "stupidly."
:durkon: Thar be no compromise, that be no parley, an' thar be no reasonable discussions!
Yer a frickin' vampire, Malack! Yer a danger ta everyone livin' on this continent!

Everyone who knows Durkon would know that he'd never accept a vampire even if the world hangs in the balance.

Either they don't know Durkon, or they're too stupid to see the truth.

[factotum]

Everyone who knows Durkon would know that he'd never accept a vampire even if the world hangs in the balance.

Either they don't know Durkon, or they're too stupid to see the truth.

Or maybe they realise that Durkon was speaking in the context of a vampire who he'd already seen feeding on Belkar? And I notice you're missing out the last part of Durkon's speech: "And even if I ignored that, you still can't be allowed to seize this place.". The implication is that he *could* choose to ignore that.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Everyone who knows Durkon would know that he'd never accept a vampire even if the world hangs in the balance.

Not quite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272979-So-Malack/page7&p=14785214#post14785214). Also, how well does the Order know Durkon anyways? Do they know enough about him to know how he feels, according to you?

[orrion]

:durkon: Thar be no compromise, that be no parley, an' thar be no reasonable discussions!
Yer a frickin' vampire, Malack! Yer a danger ta everyone livin' on this continent!

Everyone who knows Durkon would know that he'd never accept a vampire even if the world hangs in the balance.

Either they don't know Durkon, or they're too stupid to see the truth.

Likely the former, and you can't prove he'd never accept a vampire. Especially because he does in fact invoke "the world hangs in the balance" during their conversation and indicates that it trumps everything else.

[Hexenarethi]

Back in the throne room Belkar stated with some confidence that Durkon would raise him from the dead if required, and I think he was right about the sentiment, if not the practicalities. Obviously Durkon is not in a position to now (And Durkula would not), but he is not comatose. He seems to be aware of his surroundings, which include the fact that the only person who is trying to get the real Durkon back is Belkar (not to mention Belkar's genuine development, which Durkon has a front row seat for)! That is not the sort of thing that Durkon would ignore, and I would imagine he would try to ressurect him at the first opportunity.

The prophesy states clearly that Belkar will take his last breath ever, so it is hard to see him getting ressurected without violating it. As it was an official prophesy I don't think this can be an oversight either. I can see 3 possible reasons the ressurection does not come.

1: Ressurection does not work, or would do huge amounts of damage. Possibly suggesting that Belkar will be lost to the Snarl.

2: Durkon does not get an opportunity to ressurect him at all. Assuming that Durkon will get 9th level spells at some point (Does not even need the remains), this means that Durkon will also be permanently lost before he gets a chance.

3: Belkar has redeemed himself to the point of ending up on the endless battlefields of Ysgard. I can think of no place where the sexy shoeless god of war would be happier, so he may not return. I think this one is unlikely, as it throws away most of Belkars development (loyalty to the cause becoming a 'thing').

Any other possibilities?


Sure, but there is a fourth option: The Oracle is totally screwing with Roy. I mean, Roy had been a pill to Oracle. In the first instance, he dangled Oracle out the window, demanding three questions for the price of one. Then he gave him an overly complicated question the second time. Finally, he came as a spirit with NO MONEY and demanded an answer. Besides, We all love Belkar to much for him to get killed.:smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Besides, We all love Belkar to much for him to get killed.:smallbiggrin:
Whether or not Belkar dies will be determined by a system of one person, one vote. Rich Burlew is the one person who has the vote.

(The mice in your pockets especially don't get to vote.)

[Vinyadan]

Well, if you want to follow a s strict interpretation of what the Oracle has said, Undead are still in this world, so being Undead doesn't solve all his problems.

And Xykon cannot taste coffee! That's why Belkar must savour his last birthday cake!



(The mice in your pockets especially don't get to vote.)

What about the lice?

[orrion]

And Xykon cannot taste coffee! That's why Belkar must savour his last birthday cake!


Heh.

Seriously, though, I can't see the Order having two characters turned into Undead.

[Aedilred]

:durkon: Thar be no compromise, that be no parley, an' thar be no reasonable discussions!
Yer a frickin' vampire, Malack! Yer a danger ta everyone livin' on this continent!

Everyone who knows Durkon would know that he'd never accept a vampire even if the world hangs in the balance.

Either they don't know Durkon, or they're too stupid to see the truth.

I'm not sure these statements are strictly accurate. Nobody else witnessed that conversation, so they may not know Durkon's specific feelings on the subject of vampirism. They might remember that Durkon hates the undead...but they might also consider vampires to be different from "regular" undead. It's not like they've encountered any before. The subject of "hey, Durkon, what do you think of vampires, and incidentally, if you were turned into one, would you be ok with it?"

There's also the Malack argument to consider - that the wishes of the living Malack are no more relevant (and in some ways less so) than the wishes of the current vampire. While truly alive, Durkon might indeed have refused vampirism (as he did). Now that he is a vampire, he appears to be still a sentient creature with free will, and seems to have accepted his fate. People have a remarkable propensity to refuse to do something in principle, then adjust their value system to take account of circumstances when they're actually presented with a situation. Even if the vampire Durkon isn't really Durkon, does that justify murdering him?

But anyway, that aside, Roy knows Durkon as well as, probably better than, anyone, and he doesn't appear to know that he'd never accept being a vampire even if the world hangs in the balance. We also know that Roy is at least reasonably intelligent - moreso than anyone else in the party save V. So the problem is neither not knowing Durkon, nor stupidity.

It might be wilful obliviousness. It might be that Roy finds it easier to pretend that Durkon's still Durkon rather than accept that his best friend is actually dead and gone and that he's going to have to kill something that looks exactly like him. It might just be pragmatism - that whatever the situation, they need a high-level cleric and this is the only one they've got, so he'll make the best of it until things are over and doesn't want to deal with it until then. Stupidity? Nah, don't think so.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Sure, but there is a fourth option: The Oracle is totally screwing with Roy. I mean, Roy had been a pill to Oracle. In the first instance, he dangled Oracle out the window, demanding three questions for the price of one. Then he gave him an overly complicated question the second time. Finally, he came as a spirit with NO MONEY and demanded an answer. Besides, We all love Belkar to much for him to get killed.:smallbiggrin:

So far, despite being able to screw with the Order a lot more but giving them all wrong answers, he has given then correct answers, so I doubt he was screwing with Roy this time (especially with all the other hints he dropped before the other two incidents you named).

[Mastikator]

Or maybe they realise that Durkon was speaking in the context of a vampire who he'd already seen feeding on Belkar? And I notice you're missing out the last part of Durkon's speech: "And even if I ignored that, you still can't be allowed to seize this place.". The implication is that he *could* choose to ignore that.
Guess which other vampire fed on Belkar: Durkula. And no, he stipulated that he'd never accept an option where Malack was allowed to live, he said he was going to rez him after he destroyed him. But he literally said "thar be no reasonable compromise". There is no ambiguity here, there is no and if or but, vampires have to be destroyed ASAP.

Likely the former, and you can't prove he'd never accept a vampire. Especially because he does in fact invoke "the world hangs in the balance" during their conversation and indicates that it trumps everything else.
Yes I can prove it. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0872.html), he says he'd never accept Malack as a vampire under any circumstances even in spite of the fact that up until now Malack has been the perfect gentleman and friend towards Durkon. It's there in black and white. Do you think Durkon was lying or joking or not sincere? Is that who you think Durkon was?
If Roy or Haley or V was turned into vampire then Durkon wouldn't hesitate to destroy them and rez them.

-
Edit

I'm not sure these statements are strictly accurate. Nobody else witnessed that conversation, so they may not know Durkon's specific feelings on the subject of vampirism. They might remember that Durkon hates the undead...but they might also consider vampires to be different from "regular" undead. It's not like they've encountered any before. The subject of "hey, Durkon, what do you think of vampires, and incidentally, if you were turned into one, would you be ok with it?"

There's also the Malack argument to consider - that the wishes of the living Malack are no more relevant (and in some ways less so) than the wishes of the current vampire. While truly alive, Durkon might indeed have refused vampirism (as he did). Now that he is a vampire, he appears to be still a sentient creature with free will, and seems to have accepted his fate. People have a remarkable propensity to refuse to do something in principle, then adjust their value system to take account of circumstances when they're actually presented with a situation. Even if the vampire Durkon isn't really Durkon, does that justify murdering him?

But anyway, that aside, Roy knows Durkon as well as, probably better than, anyone, and he doesn't appear to know that he'd never accept being a vampire even if the world hangs in the balance. We also know that Roy is at least reasonably intelligent - moreso than anyone else in the party save V. So the problem is neither not knowing Durkon, nor stupidity.

It might be wilful obliviousness. It might be that Roy finds it easier to pretend that Durkon's still Durkon rather than accept that his best friend is actually dead and gone and that he's going to have to kill something that looks exactly like him. It might just be pragmatism - that whatever the situation, they need a high-level cleric and this is the only one they've got, so he'll make the best of it until things are over and doesn't want to deal with it until then. Stupidity? Nah, don't think so.
Your argument is that Roy isn't ignorant or stupid, he's willfully ignorant?

Yeah they need a high level cleric. If Redcloak showed up and said "hey I'm a good person now, please let me help you" they wouldn't just blindly accept him because they need a cleric, they'd quickly realize that just because he's saying he'll help them that doesn't mean he will, same deal with Durkula, which we have seen has NO interest in helping them, he's gonna bail at the first opportunity and lay waste to the northern lands.

Durkon didn't just refuse to accept Malack out of stubbornness, he recognized just how dangerous vampires are, allowing a single one to live is to let it go lose and murder probably thousands over its life, we saw what Malack had in store for the continent, he wanted to have everyone sacrificed to Nergal, it wasn't stubbornness or ignorance that lead Durkon to the conclusion that you should never compromise with a Vampire, it was wisdom.
Durkon never tried to kill Belkar even though that guy is a monster, Durkon became hostile to Malack the instant he found out about him being a vampire.

[Kish]

There is no ambiguity here, there is no and if or but, vampires have to be destroyed ASAP.
This guy seems to disagree. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14785214&postcount=197)

[Mastikator]

This guy seems to disagree. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14785214&postcount=197)

Then the giant is contradicting his own work ex post facto? The giant is only human, he can make mistakes.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Then the giant is contradicting his own work ex post facto? The giant is only human, he can make mistakes.

No, he is not contradicting his own work. He is explaining why Durkon is reacting so aggressively. The problem is that you are taking Durkon's statement, delivered in very stressful circumstances where his view of a friend had been upheaved, and assuming that it would apply absolutely.

[Aedilred]

Your argument is that Roy isn't ignorant or stupid, he's willfully ignorant?
I didn't say that Roy wasn't ignorant. I said he wasn't stupid. It's entirely possible that nobody in the Order knows how Durkon feels about vampires in general. Heck, depending on what conversations were had off-panel, they might even think that Durkon knew Malack was a vampire all along and only fought him to protect Belkar. None of the Order, save Belkar, witnessed that conversation, and nobody is listening to Belkar anyway. And we know that people in the OOtS-verse are generally ignorant as to the mechanics of vampirism.

Coming from that perspective of limited knowledge, there's relatively little evidence for Roy to go on to judge what's going on with Durkon, most of it circumstantial, and he probably has quite a large mental block with dealing with it anyway. If he listened to Belkar, then yes, the pieces might start falling into place, but nobody trusts Belkar, or Belkar's judgment, and if Roy hadn't seen vampire Durkon with his own eyes he might very well still believe Belkar was lying about everything (as the illusion suggested).


Durkon didn't just refuse to accept Malack out of stubbornness, he recognized just how dangerous vampires are, allowing a single one to live is to let it go lose and murder probably thousands over its life, we saw what Malack had in store for the continent, he wanted to have everyone sacrificed to Nergal, it wasn't stubbornness or ignorance that lead Durkon to the conclusion that you should never compromise with a Vampire, it was wisdom.
Durkon never tried to kill Belkar even though that guy is a monster, Durkon became hostile to Malack the instant he found out about him being a vampire.

All of this is true, but Roy has no idea any of that happened, so we can't use it to judge his response.

[Kish]

Then the giant is contradicting his own work ex post facto? The giant is only human, he can make mistakes.
Not touching it. Just saying: If you want to claim that Roy should know that Durkon would never-never tolerate the most good and helpful of vampires, not even if the alternative was the destruction of the entire world, and is being unaccountably stupid not to proceed according to the knowledge, that claim seems on extremely shaky ground*.

*This is an understatement, charmingness to be assessed by the individual reader.

[orrion]

Yes I can prove it. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0872.html), he says he'd never accept Malack as a vampire under any circumstances even in spite of the fact that up until now Malack has been the perfect gentleman and friend towards Durkon. It's there in black and white. Do you think Durkon was lying or joking or not sincere? Is that who you think Durkon was?
If Roy or Haley or V was turned into vampire then Durkon wouldn't hesitate to destroy them and rez them.

Might want to read the comic you're quoting.

"Yer a fricking vampire, Malack! Yer a danger to everyone livin on this continent. And even if I ignored that, you still can't be allowed to seize this place!" (I ignored the accent, for the most part).

So, the primary purpose being invoked here is stopping them from seizing the place. I think if Malack had been willing to back down on that point, Durkon would have at least postponed conflict. He's not a laser-guided missile for undead; saving the world takes precedence.

The party is postponing conflict as long as "Durkon" appears to be working toward their goal because their goal takes precedence, and Durkon's behavior supports that.

Besides, they arguably don't know him well enough to place a hatred of undead as a core characteristic of his personality. When Haley and Celia are describing him for the Cleric of Loki, hating undead is not a characteristic they use. Sure, that might not have differentiated him from any other dwarf either, but they still didn't mention it. You know what they did mention? His hatred of TREES. They were more aware that he doesn't like trees than they were that he doesn't like undead.

Roy might know him better, but then again he might not. Roy is also guilt tripping rather badly at the moment and that can blind anyone.

[ace rooster]

Sure, but there is a fourth option: The Oracle is totally screwing with Roy. I mean, Roy had been a pill to Oracle. In the first instance, he dangled Oracle out the window, demanding three questions for the price of one. Then he gave him an overly complicated question the second time. Finally, he came as a spirit with NO MONEY and demanded an answer. Besides, We all love Belkar to much for him to get killed.:smallbiggrin:

I like the suggestion, and really want to believe it (he totally would troll roy at any chance), but the 3rd wall breaking comment to the oracle fans would mean he is trolling them too. Using my bard sense it doesn't seem to fit narratively either, though the prophesies do have loopholes.


I have come up with another possibility.
Durkula vamping Belkar to get him on side, and it backfiring. Belkar gets an evil soul in his head, who goes the way of his shoulder angel upon seeing his memories. Belkar is left in charge of his own body, so there is no point in changing him back. Meanwhile this is what finally causes roy to realise that Durkula is not Durkon.

[Kish]

I have come up with another possibility.
Durkula vamping Belkar to get him on side, and it backfiring. Belkar gets an evil soul in his head, who goes the way of his shoulder angel upon seeing his memories. Belkar is left in charge of his own body, so there is no point in changing him back. Meanwhile this is what finally causes roy to realise that Durkula is not Durkon.
I'm not even going to get into "that would leave Belkar still in the world," because instead I'm going to say:

Do you honestly, seriously, think that a long-ago joke about Belkar not having a conscience is going to lead to Rich Burlew, the guy who has written Belkar as the stupid takes-many-pratfalls triggers-Mark-of-Justice-and-vomits-all-over character he's actually written him as, having a serious plot point hinge on Belkar being able to ignore one of the rules of his setting just because he's (in the minds of certain of his fans) just that incredibly kewl? If Belkar became a free-willed vampire, the spirit directing his body would not blink at any of his memories (:belkar: "I see a lot of random, pointless slaughter in your past, so a lot like your future then! But what's this crap about caring about another being?" *Vampire Belkar kills Mr. Scruffy while Belkar's spirit watches in helpless horror*). If the High Priest of Hel turned Belkar into a thrall, then for as long as the High Priest of Hel existed, Vampire Belkar's attitude toward the High Priest of Hel would be limited to, "Yes, master."

[Mastikator]

Might want to read the comic you're quoting.

"Yer a fricking vampire, Malack! Yer a danger to everyone livin on this continent. And even if I ignored that, you still can't be allowed to seize this place!" (I ignored the accent, for the most part).

So, the primary purpose being invoked here is stopping them from seizing the place. I think if Malack had been willing to back down on that point, Durkon would have at least postponed conflict. He's not a laser-guided missile for undead; saving the world takes precedence.

The party is postponing conflict as long as "Durkon" appears to be working toward their goal because their goal takes precedence, and Durkon's behavior supports that.

Besides, they arguably don't know him well enough to place a hatred of undead as a core characteristic of his personality. When Haley and Celia are describing him for the Cleric of Loki, hating undead is not a characteristic they use. Sure, that might not have differentiated him from any other dwarf either, but they still didn't mention it. You know what they did mention? His hatred of TREES. They were more aware that he doesn't like trees than they were that he doesn't like undead.

Roy might know him better, but then again he might not. Roy is also guilt tripping rather badly at the moment and that can blind anyone.
Malack was willing to compromise and Durkon said no even as he knew the world was in the balance, and you're telling me that the primary purpose is the part that is followed by "and even if I ignore that" part?

Dude he put the world at risk when he refused to compromise, Malack might have been willing to let the gate be destroyed, that would've satisfied everyones goals, everyone except Durkon who would rather risk the world than let vampires exist in it.

[AbyssStalker]

Malack was willing to compromise and Durkon said no even as he knew the world was in the balance, and you're telling me that the primary purpose is the part that is followed by "and even if I ignore that" part?

Dude he put the world at risk when he refused to compromise, Malack might have been willing to let the gate be destroyed, that would've satisfied everyones goals, everyone except Durkon who would rather risk the world than let vampires exist in it.

Wow buddy, I don't know where you get the racism on Durkon's part from, the theory that Durkon "Would Rather risk the world than let vampires exist in it" is not supported at all by the comic's representation for him, what made him refuse to negotiate with Malack was the fact that he just walked in on Malack aggressively draining Belkar, Whom he knew had no knowledge of who Belkar is, and thus was attacking an innocent victim. Well, as innocent as Belkar gets.

In short, it is not the fact that he won't negotiate with vampires that is the case here, it is that he won't negotiate with cold-blooded (heh, literally in the case) murderers.

[Porthos]

Malack was willing to compromise

No matter how many times I see this, it never fails to surprise.

Malack's definition of 'compromise' was one where he really didn't have to give up much of anything. The most generous one was: Sit out the upcoming fight while my friends rend your friends from limb to limb.

Yeah. Huge compromise there. :smallamused:

ETA::::

To be clear:

Compromise #1: I won't hurt you personally in battle and you won't hurt me.
Compromise #2: We'll both sit this battle out and let our friends kill each other.
Compromise #3: Take you friends and leave and let us take over the Gate. I'll make sure Tarquin doesn't kill you.

Those... aren't exactly compromises. In my book, at least. :smallsmile:

[dancrilis]

No matter how many times I see this, it never fails to surprise.

Malack's definition of 'compromise' was one where he really didn't have to give up much of anything. The most generous one was: Sit out the upcoming fight while my friends rend your friends from limb to limb.

Yeah. Huge compromise there. :smallamused:

Actually Durkon (and everyone else) might have been better taking that one - Belkar could have been told to let the order know the deal (which Roy might or might not have believed), and everything could have been the same from there on (mostly).

[orrion]

Malack was willing to compromise and Durkon said no even as he knew the world was in the balance, and you're telling me that the primary purpose is the part that is followed by "and even if I ignore that" part?

Um, yes. You don't use the phrase "and even if I ignore that" to state something less relevant.



Dude he put the world at risk when he refused to compromise, Malack might have been willing to let the gate be destroyed, that would've satisfied everyones goals, everyone except Durkon who would rather risk the world than let vampires exist in it.

Read. The. Comic. Malack never brought up letting the gate be destroyed or giving up the gate. His compromises were: 1) Don't harm each other. 2) Both withdraw. 3) OOTS withdraws. There was never a mention of Tarquin withdrawing or not capturing the gate.

Besides, even if I grant you Malack was willing to let the gate be destroyed, the Order wasn't. Destroying Girard's Gate was a last resort because they no longer had the firepower to hold off Xykon. It wasn't on the bargaining table.

How are you still misreading Durkon's actions even after the post was linked that has Rich explaining why Durkon did what he did? Your interpretation of his actions is wrong.

[1337Noooob]

Belkar will draw a picture of someone breathing and will never draw another picture of someone breathing ever again ‎( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Belkar will draw a picture of someone breathing and will never draw another picture of someone breathing ever again ‎( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Not just someone, he will draw himself. You know, if that's how the prophecy us fulfilled. Which it probably won't be.

[...]

Not just someone, he will draw himself. You know, if that's how the prophecy us fulfilled. Which it probably won't be.

No, Belkar has to draw his last breath ever, which means that he has to draw a picture of himself dying.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

No, Belkar has to draw his last breath ever, which means that he has to draw a picture of himself dying.

I suppose that is another (equally unlikely) way to interpret it.

[Mastikator]

Wow buddy, I don't know where you get the racism on Durkon's part from, the theory that Durkon "Would Rather risk the world than let vampires exist in it" is not supported at all by the comic's representation for him, what made him refuse to negotiate with Malack was the fact that he just walked in on Malack aggressively draining Belkar, Whom he knew had no knowledge of who Belkar is, and thus was attacking an innocent victim. Well, as innocent as Belkar gets.

In short, it is not the fact that he won't negotiate with vampires that is the case here, it is that he won't negotiate with cold-blooded (heh, literally in the case) murderers.

Racism? What's next? Racism against ghouls? Racism against wights? "Vampire" is not a race, "undead" is not a race. How many undead have been non-evil in the OotSverse? ZERO. It's completely valid to assume that the next vampire you're going to meet is going to be Evil with a capital E.

[Kish]

The fact that you appear to believe the author's actual words on the subject you're arguing about will simply go away if you ignore them hard enough has me wondering what the people who are arguing with you hope to accomplish.

[...]

The fact that you appear to believe the author's actual words on the subject you're arguing about will simply go away if you ignore them hard enough has me wondering what the people who are arguing with you hope to accomplish.

Can we please go back to talking about Belkar, and not vampiric racism? Please?

[evileeyore]

Can we please go back to talking about Belkar, and not vampiric racism? Please?
Nah... this tangent is stupid and funny.

[Zarzar]

If you think about it, a lot of D&D is horribly racist towards other races. Adventurers in general are quite horrible people when looking at them with RealLife-colored glasses. Adventuring parties are little more than small mobs of violent individuals that bounty-hunt, ransack the homes of various creatures, and bring back 14 kobold heads to the town mayor, and that's not even close to an outlandish morning. They play the role of Judge, Jury, and Executioner in so many circumstances, the idea of real world justice has to be suspended to even RP in many games.

Durkon, at face value of his character, was heavily anti-undead from the very beginning of the story. I wish we could have some backstory into why he was like that (outside of his rapid Turn jokes), since it would give a reason besides "I'm a Good character, undead are evil, they should die". Reasoning like that makes Durkon look like Miko. I mean, look at Durkon fighting Malack, and how it makes Durkon look given the details:

Durkon attacking Malack because he's a vampire: A good character being a racist jerk. (Miko)
Durkon attacking Malack because he's a vampire who bit Belkar: Defending a comrade (despite the fact that the comrade is a jerk) from an enemy. (Decent person)
Durkon attacking Malack because he's a vampire who bit Belkar, thinking he was a random morsel of food: A good character killing an evil character for the greater good. (Durkon/Roy level good).

The context is all that matters.

(Also, Belkar's death has to be permanent because it's going to shatter Durkon, V, and Elan in various ways. Roy and Haley won't be as affected due to the fact that Belkar has been a monumental burden to both of them.)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

(Also, Belkar's death has to be permanent because it's going to shatter Durkon, V, and Elan in various ways. Roy and Haley won't be as affected due to the fact that Belkar has been a monumental burden to both of them.)

This is a fairly good point about what will happen if he dies permanently. I don't think it's a good argument for why it has to happen though; unless you are claiming that Durkon, Vaarsuvius, and Elan need to be shattered.

[evileeyore]

(Also, Belkar's death has to be permanent because it's going to shatter Durkon, V, and Elan in various ways. Roy and Haley won't be as affected due to the fact that Belkar has been a monumental burden to both of them.)
I seriously doubt any of them are going to be "shattered".

Elan might mourn Belkar's death. Maybe. If Durkon does so, it's for a fallen comrade, not for whom Belkar was as a person.

And Vaarsuvius won't be affected at all.


Face it, Belkar is only loved by a handful of the readerships and found funny (but not loved) by the rest. His passing will affect us far more "profoundly" than it will the other characters.*





* By "profoundly" I mean some of us will rejoice.

[goodpeople25]

I seriously doubt any of them are going to be "shattered".

Elan might mourn Belkar's death. Maybe. If Durkon does so, it's for a fallen comrade, not for whom Belkar was as a person.

And Vaarsuvius won't be affected at all.


Face it, Belkar is only loved by a handful of the readerships and found funny (but not loved) by the rest. His passing will affect us far more "profoundly" than it will the other characters.*





* By "profoundly" I mean some of us will rejoice.

Eh i'd rejoice more if i got to eat some minstrels.

[evileeyore]

Eh i'd rejoice more if i got to eat some minstrels.
Sure, who wouldn't?

[ti'esar]

I'm inclined to agree with evileeyore. It's difficult to imagine any scenario where Belkar's death -even if it involves some form of redemption - has a more traumatic effect on the rest of the Order than Durkon's did.

[...]

Sure, who wouldn't?

Sneaking away and buggering off...

Anyways, I think Belkar's death may have more of an impact to the rest of the OOTS than what you may expect. Obviously, no one is going to start crying because of Belkar's death (except Elan, of course), but it might make the characters rethink specific aspects of their lives and/or personalities, especially Roy and Haley.

[Zarzar]

The reasons why I thought Elan, Durkon, and V would be affected on a "shattering" level is thus:

Elan: Elan and Belkar were both kind of like brothers in a way. Trading quips, getting scolded by Roy, seducing ladies left and right. I feel like their bond has grown a long way since Elan was just a XP on legs. I mean, Elan mourned Nale, and Nale tried more times than Belkar to kill Elan. Plus, if Belkar goes down in blaze of glory, Elan will be faced with one of the most monumental forms of theatrical dramatics: Death of a Main Character. S*BLEEP* is going to get real with him real fast.

Durkon: Being enslaved by Count Durkula, Durkon's kind of pitting his bets that Belkar does something stupid enough to invoke the Order's wrath against his vampiric captor. As we've already seen, Durkon has absolutely no positive memories of Belkar, and if the little guy dies at the hands of Durkula, Durkon in his lawful standard will always remember him for his addition to the team and the ability for the most chaotic cretin to do something useful for someone else besides himself.

V: V's going to learn really what atonement means from Belkar's death. I feel like V is going to be wishy-washy with the big power moves in fear of the Archfiends taking over at the wrong time and ruining everything. Belkar's going to die, and Blackwing will probably twist a knife in V's heart by mentioning that even Belkar tried to keep going forward, and that by not moving forward, the Archfiends have free reign of V for the rest of a very long elven life.

For Roy and Haley, there's a certain ignorance each of them takes towards Belkar, likely due to the fact that they've both had to be a leader watching him, and he's done insane amounts of stupid crap behind everyone's backs (or in front, Death's Little Helper doesn't discriminate) and just keeping him in line until the timer runs out feels like the end of a marathon of babysitting.

[Chd]

The reasons why I thought Elan, Durkon, and V would be affected on a "shattering" level is thus:

Elan: Elan and Belkar were both kind of like brothers in a way. Trading quips, getting scolded by Roy, seducing ladies left and right. I feel like their bond has grown a long way since Elan was just a XP on legs. I mean, Elan mourned Nale, and Nale tried more times than Belkar to kill Elan. Plus, if Belkar goes down in blaze of glory, Elan will be faced with one of the most monumental forms of theatrical dramatics: Death of a Main Character. S*BLEEP* is going to get real with him real fast.

Durkon: Being enslaved by Count Durkula, Durkon's kind of pitting his bets that Belkar does something stupid enough to invoke the Order's wrath against his vampiric captor. As we've already seen, Durkon has absolutely no positive memories of Belkar, and if the little guy dies at the hands of Durkula, Durkon in his lawful standard will always remember him for his addition to the team and the ability for the most chaotic cretin to do something useful for someone else besides himself.

V: V's going to learn really what atonement means from Belkar's death. I feel like V is going to be wishy-washy with the big power moves in fear of the Archfiends taking over at the wrong time and ruining everything. Belkar's going to die, and Blackwing will probably twist a knife in V's heart by mentioning that even Belkar tried to keep going forward, and that by not moving forward, the Archfiends have free reign of V for the rest of a very long elven life.

For Roy and Haley, there's a certain ignorance each of them takes towards Belkar, likely due to the fact that they've both had to be a leader watching him, and he's done insane amounts of stupid crap behind everyone's backs (or in front, Death's Little Helper doesn't discriminate) and just keeping him in line until the timer runs out feels like the end of a marathon of babysitting.

I agree with all of this, and I have an idea on how it goes down;

1) Redcloak suceeds in sending the last gate to his master's lair.

2) Belkster dies and goes to the Abyss, he single-handedly slays the 3 arch-fiends (While V watches on in one of her 'visits')

3) Belkar finds a macguffin that allows him to travel between the outer realms, and raids 'The Dark One's realm, killing Goblins, Hobgoblins, and maybe Kobolds(?) before killing 'The Dark One' in a bloody fight to the annihilation.

4) Belkar wins, and takes his place as 'the Sexy, Shoeless God of War'/God of Liberation.

5) The Snarl tries to get through the rifts, all the Gods do so at a cost of self-sacrifice.

6) Belkar, being the only remaining god, answers a prayer from Durkon, destroying the vampire curse/killing Durkon.

7) Durkon is resurrected 3 days after his ashes are returned to his Homeland, so he may create a new monotheistic Cleric order to worship Belkar: the Rest of the group are canonized as saints.

[orrion]

I agree with all of this, and I have an idea on how it goes down;

1) Redcloak suceeds in sending the last gate to his master's lair.

2) Belkster dies and goes to the Abyss, he single-handedly slays the 3 arch-fiends (While V watches on in one of her 'visits')

3) Belkar finds a macguffin that allows him to travel between the outer realms, and raids 'The Dark One's realm, killing Goblins, Hobgoblins, and maybe Kobolds(?) before killing 'The Dark One' in a bloody fight to the annihilation.

4) Belkar wins, and takes his place as 'the Sexy, Shoeless God of War'/God of Liberation.

5) The Snarl tries to get through the rifts, all the Gods do so at a cost of self-sacrifice.

6) Belkar, being the only remaining god, answers a prayer from Durkon, destroying the vampire curse/killing Durkon.

7) Durkon is resurrected 3 days after his ashes are returned to his Homeland, so he may create a new monotheistic Cleric order to worship Belkar: the Rest of the group are canonized as saints.

I think that theory dies on point 2).

[Chd]

I think that theory dies on point 2).

How So?

I dunno where the Archfiends are, but he'd go there (He dies, becomes a fiend, and kills the archfiends while V watches on, to really mess with V, he'll kiss her before s/he returns.)

The Archfiends are able to travel between realms, so it would stand to reason that either Belkar as a fiend can too, or he finds out how the archfiends are able to.

[Domino Quartz]

How So?


Because he's not going to magically become a Sexy Shoeless Marty Stu of war just because he's Evil and proficient with daggers.

[evileeyore]

I think that theory dies on point 2).
It won't even get to one.

Redcloak is going to fail. There are now too many Evil Gods vying for control of the Gate.

It will be sunderd. The Snarl will be released.

What happens after this I have no idea but I trust The Giant to make it both interesting and intelligent.





Of course he could pull a Waterson and end it with a blank wipe...

[factotum]

There are now too many Evil Gods vying for control of the Gate.


There is precisely one Evil god trying to control the Gate--the Dark One. The archfiends are not Gods, nor do they pretend to be ones on TV.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

How So?

I dunno where the Archfiends are, but he'd go there (He dies, becomes a fiend, and kills the archfiends while V watches on, to really mess with V, he'll kiss her before s/he returns.)

The Archfiends are able to travel between realms, so it would stand to reason that either Belkar as a fiend can too, or he finds out how the archfiends are able to.

The problem is certainly not with him getting to the Archfiends; the problem is that he cannot actually defeat the Archfiends.

[Kish]

Indeed. "Rich makes a joke about Belkar happily slaughtering nameless opponents in the Abyss such that Belkar's going to the Abyss is not a punishment from his perspective, and for that joke he doesn't care that by D&D rules Belkar's Chaotic Evil soul would be mind-wiped and immediately reduced to a CR 1 larva" is a serious possibility.

"Rich makes a central part of his story's conclusion that Belkar, immediately after death, can slaughter archfiends powerful enough to control the souls of archmages, because Rich has always been a member of the Belkar's Too Cool For Logic Or Limits club on the forum, that was some other author who wrote him getting outmaneuvered by the Oracle, vomiting his guts out, and being handled with dismissive ease by Malack"...is not.

[orrion]

How So?

I dunno where the Archfiends are, but he'd go there (He dies, becomes a fiend, and kills the archfiends while V watches on, to really mess with V, he'll kiss her before s/he returns.)

The Archfiends are able to travel between realms, so it would stand to reason that either Belkar as a fiend can too, or he finds out how the archfiends are able to.

Belkar is nowhere near as powerful as those three fiends. I'm not sure what has given you the idea that they're chumps that Belkar could just walk in and stab to death.

[dancrilis]

Actually we have no idea the power of those Fiends.

They might not have actually cast time stop - that could have been a lie.

They might also be effectively junior management working on a project.
Imagine this the three souls are effectively very senior programmers - and they work the highest level of management that still interacts with programmers.
The three junior management figures ask for a resource to be allocated as part of a project, and the get the project approved and the resources made available.

As such for a while it looks like the junior management figures are in charge of the very senior programmers (which is true for the project), but once the project is over they are essentially still at the lowest rung of power, and the programmers are still at a higher one.

This could be why the soul splice is a once a century deal - because they are unlikely to get approved again for another century. It is also why they need to show the project works so they can request more resources (and stop being low level management).

Under those circumstances it is possible that a high level character could take them.

I personally don't see it as likely that it will be Belkar - but I suspect that the three fiends might go down fairly easy in an actual fight (if one ever occurs).
Or at least easier than some people on the forum will be happy with.

[mouser9169]

Actually we have no idea the power of those Fiends.

<snip>

Under those circumstances it is possible that a high level character could take them.

I personally don't see it as likely that it will be Belkar - but I suspect that the three fiends might go down fairly easy in an actual fight (if one ever occurs).
Or at least easier than some people on the forum will be happy with.

Are they ever called "arch-fiends" in the comic? AFAIK they're just a devil, a demon, and whatever the hell the guy in the middle is called. They're effective because of their organization and teamwork, not their combat prowess.

I like the idea - in some ways Belkar is the one member of the OotS perfectly suited (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html) for the task. That said, right now I'm leaning more toward him becoming a Durkula spawn. The 'not long for this world' thing the Oracle said was a comment, not a prophecy so I don't think it needs to be taken literally.

[dancrilis]

It depends on your interpretation.

Interpretation 1: They clearly state they are Archfiends here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) panel 10.
Interpretation 2: They are referring to their superiors here - who are working together to allow the project.
Interpretation 3: They are lying to make themselves seem important.

I could go on, but we do know that they are lying (depending on interpretation) in that panel about other matters.

What we don't know is what the title of Archfiend means in the Order of the Stick universe.

[orrion]

Actually we have no idea the power of those Fiends.

We know that at least one of them can take some damage from a pissed off 5 headed dragon goddess and walk away from it (and that another one can heal him in 1 spell).



They might not have actually cast time stop - that could have been a lie.

A better way to phrase that would be "they might not have been the agents of the Time Stop." If you're contending the Time Stop might not have happened, I see no reason to entertain that.

The Fiends lied by omission, but as of yet I haven't seen them tell a straight up lie.



They might also be effectively junior management working on a project.
Imagine this the three souls are effectively very senior programmers - and they work the highest level of management that still interacts with programmers.
The three junior management figures ask for a resource to be allocated as part of a project, and the get the project approved and the resources made available.

As such for a while it looks like the junior management figures are in charge of the very senior programmers (which is true for the project), but once the project is over they are essentially still at the lowest rung of power, and the programmers are still at a higher one.

This could be why the soul splice is a once a century deal - because they are unlikely to get approved again for another century. It is also why they need to show the project works so they can request more resources (and stop being low level management).

You're taking the position they're lying about that, but in actuality there wasn't any reason for them to mention that part at all. This applies to most of your points. Why, for instance, would they lie to make themselves look better to Vaarsuvius? What do they gain? Nothing. Besides, V was willing to make a deal before he even knew who the hell (who in hell?) would be providing it.


Under those circumstances it is possible that a high level character could take them.

I personally don't see it as likely that it will be Belkar - but I suspect that the three fiends might go down fairly easy in an actual fight (if one ever occurs).
Or at least easier than some people on the forum will be happy with.

The Fiends imply having others under their command (one of them mentions sending someone out to get Haerta's soul), and they also have Sabine under their command.

Are you going to take the position that the fiends are weaker than Sabine? Even if they're ONLY as powerful as Sabine, I'd say that would be more than enough in a 3v1 fight with Belkar.

[dancrilis]

We know that at least one of them can take some damage from a pissed off 5 headed dragon goddess and walk away from it (and that another one can heal him in 1 spell).
I contend that the Goddess did not intend to destroy them - as such the level of damage is enough to hurt but not enough to kill.
This means it could be 5 damage to a 6 hp creature - cured in one spell by cure light wounds.
It could also be 9999 damage to a 10000 hp creature - cured in one spell Epic Heal.


A better way to phrase that would be "they might not have been the agents of the Time Stop." If you're contending the Time Stop might not have happened, I see no reason to entertain that.


Actually yes I am dubious that the dragon would have gotten everything done in the time if Time Stop was in affect, not because it is not possible - but because I think the dragon would have taken its time (otherwise there would be no broken legs/nailed to a tree going on).
However this is just me being dubious rather than saying one way or another.



You're taking the position they're lying about that, but in actuality there wasn't any reason for them to mention that part at all.
The bit you quoted was a real world analogy (one I have seen multiple times), so I am unsure about this response.





Are you going to take the position that the fiends are weaker than Sabine? Even if they're ONLY as powerful as Sabine, I'd say that would be more than enough in a 3v1 fight with Belkar.
Here you are probably right - however let us imagine that they are the equivalent of Shojo they could have followers more individually powerful than themselves.
Similarly as mentioned I doubt it will be Belkar that takes them down - but a scene where Belkar kills his way through low level fiends, deals with Qarr and Sabine only to arrive at the boss fight - and the three to be blaming each other as they hide behind the sofa as they have no real combat abilities might be entertaining depending on how it was handled.

I suspect that they will defeat themselves via the natural tendencies of Fiends not to get along - and that the project will be a failure. I also suspect that Belkar will have no involvement with this (though V might).

[ti'esar]

I suspect that they will defeat themselves via the natural tendencies of Fiends not to get along - and that the project will be a failure.

I'm not sure where you're getting this - the Directors are virtually indistinguishable, and the Giant has stated in the DStP commentary that with rare exceptions he wrote their dialogue as though they were a single character. It seems very unlikely that they'd have a falling out over matters of alignment.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think that with all the set up they have been given and their apparent importance and power, it would be very disappointing to find out that they are ordinary fiends easily taken down by the likes of Belkar. I won't say it's absolutely impossible, but it seems to be quite unlikely.

[Kish]

Considering the theory goes on to Belkar killing an actual god, a "the IFCC are actually an imp, a quasit, and a mephit rather than archfiends" switch would not make it significantly more plausible.

[orrion]

I contend that the Goddess did not intend to destroy them - as such the level of damage is enough to hurt but not enough to kill.
This means it could be 5 damage to a 6 hp creature - cured in one spell by cure light wounds.
It could also be 9999 damage to a 10000 hp creature - cured in one spell Epic Heal.

I'm not sure a goddess could deal as little as 5 damage if she wanted to, but that aside - do you really believe your own argument here, that the heads of the IFCC are low level guys that can be taken out really easily?



Actually yes I am dubious that the dragon would have gotten everything done in the time if Time Stop was in affect, not because it is not possible - but because I think the dragon would have taken its time (otherwise there would be no broken legs/nailed to a tree going on).
However this is just me being dubious rather than saying one way or another.

If I were the IFCC, I wouldn't risk my plan on assuming the dragon would take her time when I could just pull off a Time Stop.



The bit you quoted was a real world analogy (one I have seen multiple times), so I am unsure about this response.

The quoting might have gotten a bit weird. I was referring to the splice - you think they're lying about that when they have no reason to lie about that. The bit of information about "once in a century, don't look it up" was likely intended for the readers. When the heck was V going to have time to look it up (especially when they explained it right after that)? My point is that it's information the Fiends didn't even need to tell Vaarsuvius. They could have just omitted it entirely with the same result overall.



Here you are probably right - however let us imagine that they are the equivalent of Shojo they could have followers more individually powerful than themselves.
Similarly as mentioned I doubt it will be Belkar that takes them down - but a scene where Belkar kills his way through low level fiends, deals with Qarr and Sabine only to arrive at the boss fight - and the three to be blaming each other as they hide behind the sofa as they have no real combat abilities might be entertaining depending on how it was handled.

Why should I imagine that when absolutely nothing supports it? Heck, I don't even imagine Belkar getting screen time after he dies. Roy did because he's the main character overall (by that I mean the party is still technically fulfilling his original quest, and he's the leader of said party). I also can't envision Belkar wanting to go after the fiends at all. I'm not even sure he'll ever learn about them. I don't see V or Roy as likely to tell him.

It doesn't even matter what the Fiends are, really, just because a direct confrontation with them is so off the wall. It's like preparing for a meteor to hit my house. I can't reasonably entertain the notion.



I suspect that they will defeat themselves via the natural tendencies of Fiends not to get along - and that the project will be a failure. I also suspect that Belkar will have no involvement with this (though V might).

Since the entire premise behind their existence is that they are Fiends who get along, it would be a pretty big anticlimax for them to fail because of that.

[evileeyore]

There is precisely one Evil god trying to control the Gate--the Dark One. The archfiends are not Gods, nor do they pretend to be ones on TV.
I count a second Evil God. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)





How could anyone have missed this?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I count a second Evil God. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)





How could anyone have missed this?

To be fair, we don't know for certain that Hel's plan involves the Gate, much less controlling it. It seems likely that is what's happening, but for now all we know is that she wants to bring ruin to the world and drive Thor to his knees.

Also, if the Snarl is released into this world, while it will ruin the poster's plan (I think, to be honest it's kind of hard to tell from the way it's written), Redcloak still succeeds, just in a way that destroys himself.

[orrion]

I count a second Evil God. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)





How could anyone have missed this?

Second evil god present in the comic, yes.

Second evil god going after the Gates? Unproven as of yet.

[Lexible]

I'm inclined to agree with evileeyore. It's difficult to imagine any scenario where Belkar's death -even if it involves some form of redemption - has a more traumatic effect on the rest of the Order than Durkon's did.

I think Belkar's death will actually affect Roy the most. Roy is responsible for channeling Belkar awat from evil, and indeed the Western Continent showed Belkar to be somewhat less evil than a certain hypothetical spawn of Cruella de Ville and Sauron. Moreover, Roy and Belkar are, to my eyes, actually quite a pair: no other member of the OotS except Elan in the early strips could have held down Roy's other half like Belkar did in the gladiator pit, on the deck of the Mechane, and, indeed when Belkar was calling Roy out on giving up in the pyramid. More than Roy's responsibility, I think Belkar is Roy's friend in a pretty deep way. When he makes the big exit, I suspect Roy's gonna feel it for a while afterward: in death Belkar is gonna inspire Roy to continue to be an even better good guy.

Unless Belkar becomes a vampire.

[evileeyore]

Second evil god going after the Gates? Unproven as of yet.
But still damned obvious to me.

Hel knows as much as the other Gods. She may even know more about The Dark One's plans. Not sure how, but it's a possibility being the goddes of pestilence and Evil (maybe another Goblin in the know died in the North and ended up in her clutches long ago).



But the fastest way to "bring the world to ruin and Thor to his knees" is by controlling the last Gate.

And meta-thinking-wise it's a little late in the 5-act structure for a new plot twist.



Moreover, Roy and Belkar are, to my eyes, actually quite a pair: no other member of the OotS except Elan in the early strips could have held down Roy's other half like Belkar did in the gladiator pit, on the deck of the Mechane, and, indeed when Belkar was calling Roy out on giving up in the pyramid.
Being someone's comic and antagonistic foil does not make them friends.



More than Roy's responsibility, I think Belkar is Roy's friend in a pretty deep way. When he makes the big exit, I suspect Roy's gonna feel it for a while afterward: in death Belkar is gonna inspire Roy to continue to be an even better good guy.
LOL

[Jaxzan Proditor]

But still damned obvious to me.

Hel knows as much as the other Gods. She may even know more about The Dark One's plans. Not sure how, but it's a possibility being the goddes of pestilence and Evil (maybe another Goblin in the know died in the North and ended up in her clutches long ago).

But the fastest way to "bring the world to ruin and Thor to his knees" is by controlling the last Gate.

And meta-thinking-wise it's a little late in the 5-act structure for a new plot twist.


A thought that occured to me is that Hel may want to join with the Dark One and help with his plan, so long as she gets a few things out of the bargain. She could use the Snarl to bring Thor to his knees and, depending on what Redcloak does, bring ruin to the world.

[Kish]

Hel knows as much as the other Gods. She may even know more about The Dark One's plans. Not sure how, but it's a possibility being the goddes of pestilence and Evil (maybe another Goblin in the know died in the North and ended up in her clutches long ago).

That Durkon died in the West did not change the fact that she, not Nergal, created the dark spirit currently animating him. I doubt very much that the Dark One is only the god of goblins in...
in...
in...

Never mind "doubt very much." The Dark One is the god of the goblins, which would be a meaningless title if he was only the god of goblins who weren't in the 100% of the world that belongs to other pantheons.


And meta-thinking-wise it's a little late in the 5-act structure for a new plot twist.

That ship sailed thirteen strips ago with the revelation that Hel was involved at all.

[orrion]

But still damned obvious to me.

Hel knows as much as the other Gods. She may even know more about The Dark One's plans. Not sure how, but it's a possibility being the goddes of pestilence and Evil (maybe another Goblin in the know died in the North and ended up in her clutches long ago).

But the fastest way to "bring the world to ruin and Thor to his knees" is by controlling the last Gate.

First problem with that is The Dark One gets the goblins.

Second problem with that is lack of evidence that other goblins are "in the know" in the first place excepting previous wearers of the Crimson Mantle, and it's highly unlikely a deity would allow their High Priest to go to some other god or goddess upon death.

Third problem is that there's been no hint of a way for Hel to control the Gate or even that she's aimed at the Gate, and we have a certain prophecy suggesting something to do with the dwarven lands. The Gate isn't part of the dwarven lands.



And meta-thinking-wise it's a little late in the 5-act structure for a new plot twist.

The introduction of Hel was exactly that. I also expect at least one more major plot twist having to do with the Snarl.

[evileeyore]

First problem with that is The Dark One gets the goblins.
It's only a problem for the sentence in the paranthesis which starts with a "maybe" anyway.

So... not exactly a problem as far as I'm concerned.



Third problem is that there's been no hint of a way for Hel to control the Gate...
Same way the Dark One came up with his "master plan". She's an Evil God.

Thinking up Evil stuff is in her wheelhouse.


...or even that she's aimed at the Gate...
Yup pure speculation. But unless she's got a doosy of a plan, I don't see how one Vampire, even a high level Evil Priest Vampire is going to "bring THIS WORLD to ruin" without using the Gates.


Easiest way: What until the right moment. Vamp Vaarsuvius. Raise Vaarsuvius. Use the combined Eldritch and Clerical magics to control Gate. Switch access to Hel. Pure Win.



The introduction of Hel was exactly that.
She's not a twist, She's another problem. A compounded, complicated problem, but just an added problem.

Unless it's revealed that Hel planted the "Prophecy" about Durkon in the first place and set his whole path into motion, then yes, in that case it would be "such a twist!".


I also expect at least one more major plot twist having to do with the Snarl.
At this point further reveals about the Snarl would cease to be "twists". They're just reveals.

The first time was a twist (What Blackwing Saw Through The Peephole). The second a confusion of the twist. From here out unless the Snarl is revealed to be a singing, dancing, top-hat wearing frog... it's just further reveals.

[orrion]

She's not a twist, She's another problem. A compounded, complicated problem, but just an added problem.

Unless it's revealed that Hel planted the "Prophecy" about Durkon in the first place and set his whole path into motion, then yes, in that case it would be "such a twist!".

What, seriously?

A plot twist is a radical change in the expected direction or outcome of the plot of a novel, film, television series, comic, video game, or other work of narrative.[1] It is a common practice in narration used to keep the interest of an audience, usually surprising them with a revelation. Some "twists" are foreshadowed.

When a plot twist happens near the end of a story, especially if it changes one's view of the preceding events, it is known as a surprise ending.[2]

There's like 5 different examples of how parts of that definition fit in with Hel's reveal.

[Kish]

She's not a twist, She's another problem. A compounded, complicated problem, but just an added problem.
You'll need to define your terms then, because "Hel's being added as a new villain is not a plot twist, but the revelation that she's anything other than After The Gate would be" looks utterly arbitrary to me.

[mouser9169]

Hel is not a plot twist, she is a new plot element. A "twist" is when something already in the story takes an unexpected turn. You can't do something unexpected when you're first introduced, because the audience doesn't expect anything yet.

And yes, there are ways when introducing something could be a plot twist, but Hel isn't one of them. We didn't really know what to expect from Durkula - we knew he'd "changed", but not much else than he was willing to help Roy. Anybody who thought Durkula was going to be just like Durkon was incredibly naive.

I'm sure Rich does have a few plot twists in mind to throw at us by the story's end. Whatever happens to Belkar will probably be one of them. We're all expecting him to die, usually as soon as he does something heroic or at least noteworthy, such as when he rode the dinosaur in the desert. Having Belkar simply be killed and then gone would be rather disappointing.

We've had a few foreshadowings about the undead thing: Xykon talking about it in his battle with V. A few times with Roy's corpse. Now Durkula, ok this one isn't really a foreshadowing. Tsukiko almost animating Miko (now that could have been a plot twist, especially if the Undead somehow had Miko's personality or memories).

Since Rich is pulling from Dragon Ball Z here (the whole 'inside Dukula's head' thing is lifted straight from the Buu saga) maybe Belkar would be one of those "righteous martial artists" (or unrighteous in his case) that get to keep their bodies when they go to lower planes. I don't think an encounter between Belkar and the three fiends is outside the realm of possibility.

Do fiends breathe? That's another possibilty - Belkar could be high enough level at that point (depending on happens between now and his death) that he could be placed at a higher rung on the ladder than your typical scum that gets sent to The Big Fire Below. Belkar as a demon could be interesting.

Edit: The soul splice thing tells us that at least some evil dead get to stay who they are and aren't turned into Gloop and Gleep from the Herculoids (I think those were their names...)

[evileeyore]

What, seriously?

A plot twist is a radical change in the expected direction or outcome of the plot of a novel, film, television series, comic, video game, or other work of narrative.[1] It is a common practice in narration used to keep the interest of an audience, usually surprising them with a revelation. Some "twists" are foreshadowed.

When a plot twist happens near the end of a story, especially if it changes one's view of the preceding events, it is known as a surprise ending.[2]

There's like 5 different examples of how parts of that definition fit in with Hel's reveal.


You'll need to define your terms then, because "Hel's being added as a new villain is not a plot twist, but the revelation that she's anything other than After The Gate would be" looks utterly arbitrary to me.


AHEM:

Is the Order still going in the same direction? Yes.
Have their plans changed or altered direction in any way? No.

Thus: No Twist.


Is this a twist in Durkon's personal story? No... and here's why:

Is he fulfilling the Prophecy? So far it's a "Yes", which means so far his story is on track. Is it on track in way the audience thought? Kinda. If you paid attention you knew Durkon would return and bring ruin to the Dwarves. The reveal was he'd do it "posthumously". Smart money then says he'd have to be both dead and returning in a state to wreak havoc. Ala, he's Undead.


Reveals aren't twists just because you didn't see it coming. They're twists when the direction of the story changes or things you believed true are shown to be something entirely different.

The Snarl "being a different world" is a twist. That it might be a lie or a truth or a "What?" wasn't a twist, it was just a further reveal in that twist.


Will there be another Plot twist? Personally at this point I doubt it. I'm pretty sure the last book will be a run up to the big showdown and the final reveal of what the Snarl is.


My bet:

The Snarl is indeed another world, and in order to become whole the OotS world has to be consumed. Destroying everything, rebirthing it all on the new world, and Rich Burlew will lose all faith with me.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Do fiends breathe?

They do not. Belkar becoming a fiend wouldn't be much if twist, since that's what would happen if he died anyways.

Edit: I take that back. They breathe.

[evileeyore]

You should explain this definition of "not a twist" to this fellow here:
Have the Order's direction changed? No.
They are still bound for the Gate to stop Evil from taking control of it.

Will Vampire Durkon (and Hel's plot) cause this to be problematic? Maybe. We'll see.

Has the Order's Plans changed in any way? No.
Okay, maybe. The only change I can see is this: Kill Vampire Durkon, get him raised. But this is a side quest. Could this interfere with the main quest? We'll see.



Unless, somehow, the Order's plans would be changed now by Hel's goal being something other than "try to get the last Gate."
Again the quote is: "bring THIS WORLD to ruin" not "bring the Northlands/Dwarven Homeland to ruin".

[Kish]

I certainly wouldn't want to bet that Hel will not interfere with the main quest. But beyond that, you appear to be arguing for something other than your initial claim and barely related to it--your assertion was that Hel is obviously going after the Gate, but your arguments are focused on her not trying to do something small, as though the only two options were Small and Gate. (The arguments that I understand how they relate without being an own goal, that is; you also keep hammering on the idea that the Order hasn't yet adjusted their actions in response to Hel's unknown-to-them presence in the comic, because even without knowing that she's in any way involved they would have if her goal was anything other than the Gate, or something.)

That said, right now I'm leaning more toward him becoming a Durkula spawn. The 'not long for this world' thing the Oracle said was a comment, not a prophecy so I don't think it needs to be taken literally.
You realize that if Belkar became a vampire, his current soul would be trapped while another dark spirit piloted his body around, such that this is tantamount to theorizing that Belkar will die and go to a really squalid afterlife (and if, following the destruction of the High Priest of Hel and that spirit becoming free-willed, Vampire Belkar even offered to help the rest of the Order, if they took him up on it, knowing the living halfling soul of Belkar was his prisoner for as long as he existed...yikes :smalleek:).

[JerichoRehling]

My theory, before I read this thread:
He's going to be bitten by Durkon and turned into a vampire in hopes of making him an ally rather than a nuisance, but since he's already evil, he's just going to be the same guy, but technically dead and fulfilling the prophecy by never taking a breath again.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

My theory, before I read this thread:
He's going to be bitten by Durkon and turned into a vampire in hopes of making him an ally rather than a nuisance, but since he's already evil, he's just going to be the same guy, but technically dead and fulfilling the prophecy by never taking a breath again.

That's not how vampires work. He would be possessed by a spirit created in the halls of [whoever is responsible for halflings]. The new spirit would still be Evil, but he wouldn't be the same person.

[Peelee]

That's not how vampires work. He would be possessed by a spirit created in the halls of [whoever is responsible for halflings]. The new spirit would still be Evil, but he wouldn't be the same person.

And that's the story of how i only now noticed your signature.

[dancrilis]

The new spirit would still be Evil, but he wouldn't be the same person.

We don't know that - the new spirit could be neutral or good if the Giant needed them to be for the story.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

We don't know that - the new spirit could be neutral or good if the Giant needed them to be for the story.

No, vampires are Evil. The whole "spirit taking over" thing is The Giant's explanation for how sudden alignment changes like that happen. If it was an Evil person possessed, the vampire is still Evil.

[Peelee]

We don't know that - the new spirit could be neutral or good if the Giant needed them to be for the story.


[Hel] is also, separately, the Northern deity of undeath, and one of her "duties" is making the evil spirits for all Northern vampires.

Unless she is one of at least two Northern deities of undeath, then at the very least Northern vampires can only be evil. I take this to extend to all vampires.

[dancrilis]

No, vampires are Evil. The whole "spirit taking over" thing is The Giant's explanation for how sudden alignment changes like that happen. If it was an Evil person possessed, the vampire is still Evil.


Unless she is one of at least two Northern deities of undeath, then at the very least Northern vampires can only be evil. I take this to extend to all vampires.



Maybe there are other vampires out there doing other things, being Good and living in harmony with the world. Don't care. Don't need them for this story.

As such while there may be no vampires out there currently being good and living in harmony with the world - if the Giant needed such a spirit to possess Belkar he has left the door open for himself.

Unless you are contending that if the Giant felt it was necessary for the story for the story he wanted to tell that his hands would be tied and he would not be able to tell such a story?

[Peelee]

As such while there may be no vampires out there currently being good and living in harmony with the world - if the Giant needed such a spirit to possess Belkar he has left the door open for himself.

Unless you are contending that if the Giant felt it was necessary for the story for the story he wanted to tell that his hands would be tied and he would not be able to tell such a story?

My only contention is that I'm lazy and didn't re-read the whole thing. Touché.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

As such while there may be no vampires out there currently being good and living in harmony with the world - if the Giant needed such a spirit to possess Belkar he has left the door open for himself.

Unless you are contending that if the Giant felt it was necessary for the story for the story he wanted to tell that his hands would be tied and he would not be able to tell such a story?
I had forgotten that part. You are correct in that a vampire could chose to be good independent of its creator's will. However, the new spirit would still start as Evil; only later could it actively choose to no longer be that way (this is also fairly unlikely, like most alignment shifts, but still technically possible). Also, the "don't need them for this story" indicates that this is not Belkar's fate.

[dancrilis]

Also, the "don't need them for this story" indicates that this is not Belkar's fate.

I doubt Belkar's fate will be to become a vampire at all.

However the Giant's wording implied vampires that were 'out there', not vampire spirits that had yet to be created.
As such a potential vampire Belkar's spirit could be good and still be part of the story.

Could it start as good - that depends on how good Hel is at her duties, if she is inattentive at a given point could she actually create a good spirit or neutral spirit when it was meant to be evil?
Separately is there a counter force creating good spirits for all northern vampires and than it is a race to install them?

Honestly in the hypothetical scenario where Belkar becomes a vampire chances are it will be evil - but it could theoretically not be.

[Kish]

We don't know that - the new spirit could be neutral or good if the Giant needed them to be for the story.
Neutral or good or not, as little sympathy as I have for Belkar in general, it would say disturbing things about Roy if Roy smiled and nodded at the idea of Belkar spending eternity as a prisoner in his body as his reward for being actually right about the High Priest of Hel.

[dancrilis]

Agreed, a possible way it could work is if the good vampire takes on the role of jailer and consoler for Belkar to attempt to redeem him, with the intention of releasing him once he felt his work was done - not possible.

Destroying Belkar to prevent him being a vampire and likely banishing his soul to the abyss without such a chance of redemption would seem harsher than allowing a good aligned vampire to have a crack at helping him.

But I think this is far far off the beaten track of where the comic will go.

If I was told the options were the above or the prophesy never coming up and the Oracle just messing with Roy and having fun with Belkar - I would hold that the Oracle was messing around as the by far more likely outcome.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I doubt Belkar's fate will be to become a vampire at all.
Glad we can agree on that.


However the Giant's wording implied vampires that were 'out there', not vampire spirits that had yet to be created.
As such a potential vampire Belkar's spirit could be good and still be part of the story.
I think the implication is more that he doesn't need Good vampires for the story; where they are is irrelevant.


Could it start as good - that depends on how good Hel is at her duties, if she is inattentive at a given point could she actually create a good spirit or neutral spirit when it was meant to be evil?
Separately is there a counter force creating good spirits for all northern vampires and than it is a race to install them?
For the first question: I think not. I don't think How could just accidentally create a spirit. For the second question: absolutely not.


Honestly in the hypothetical scenario where Belkar becomes a vampire chances are it will be evil - but it could theoretically not be.

I will admit, there is a ghost if a chance that it becomes Good.

[evileeyore]

Seriously people.

Belkar is just going to die. It may or may not be in a massive awesome battle where he shows off his Shoeless God of War moves (indeed, he might even put on shoes if it's in the snow), but he will just die.

He won't be raised as the Order will either a) have no access to a Cleric that wants him raised*, or b) have no motivation to raise as he's an Evil sadistic little git.



* Another point in Vampire Durkon's favor, all this being stabbed in the face sets up a perfect cover for "Why I don't want to raise that malicious turd, by Vampire Durkon".

[Dalek Kommander]

But still damned obvious to me.

Hel knows as much as the other Gods. She may even know more about The Dark One's plans. Not sure how, but it's a possibility being the goddes of pestilence and Evil (maybe another Goblin in the know died in the North and ended up in her clutches long ago).



Redcloak knows both halves of the ritual. If Durkula vamps redcloak, he will create a Thrall Vampire with complete access to Redcloak's memories. Note that where Redcloak's soul is "supposed" to go is irrelevant, because that's how vampires work. Also, the Thrall is explicitly under the command of the master, even if the creation of vampire goblin souls falls under the Dark One's jurisdiction.

[mouser9169]

If this "vampire is really a new spirit inhabiting an old body" is canon in the Stickverse, then why hasn't V said anything? Surely she would know something about it with her super-super human intellect? She hasn't mentioned to Roy, "Btw, you realize that Durkon is off fighting on the plains of Asgaard and eating fried walrus in the Halls of Odin while some other spirit is occupying his body now, right?"

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If this "vampire is really a new spirit inhabiting an old body" is canon in the Stickverse, then why hasn't V said anything? Surely she would know something about it with her super-super human intellect? She hasn't mentioned to Roy, "Btw, you realize that Durkon is off fighting on the plains of Asgaard and eating fried walrus in the Halls of Odin while some other spirit is occupying his body now, right?"
Take a look at the first link (How) in my signature. Also, as the comic clearly shows, becoming a vampire traps the old spirit in the body, making it unable to do anything.

[Peelee]

If this "vampire is really a new spirit inhabiting an old body" is canon in the Stickverse, then why hasn't V said anything? Surely she would know something about it with her super-super human intellect? She hasn't mentioned to Roy, "Btw, you realize that Durkon is off fighting on the plains of Asgaard and eating fried walrus in the Halls of Odin while some other spirit is occupying his body now, right?"

High intellect =/= knowing everything in the world. Vampirism is rare. No living mortal knows how it works, pretty much. Refer to the High Banana for verification by Giant.

And if you want a rules reason as well, V doesn't have any Knowledge: Religion. So he would have no reason to know even if such knowledge did exist among mortals.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

And if you want a rules reason as well, V doesn't have any Knowledge: Religion. So he would have no reason to know even if such knowledge did exist among mortals.

Actually, I think they do. I think Zimmerwald has a reasoning for it, I don't remember quite what it was.

[Peelee]

Actually, I think they do. I think Zimmerwald has a reasoning for it, I don't remember quite what it was.

Hmmmm. I take it that he doesn't, as he didn't know Resurrection had a 10 minute casting time and proclaimed it "not real magic" immediately upon leaning such. I like zimmerwald. I'll have to see if i can't dig that bit up.

As to the point, even if V had Know: Religion, he doesn't have nearly enough ranks, in all likelihood.

[Kish]

If this "vampire is really a new spirit inhabiting an old body" is canon in the Stickverse, then why hasn't V said anything? Surely she would know something about it with her super-super human intellect? She hasn't mentioned to Roy, "Btw, you realize that Durkon is off fighting on the plains of Asgaard and eating fried walrus in the Halls of Odin while some other spirit is occupying his body now, right?"
I am twice as puzzled by your expressed belief that Vaarsuvius should know that another soul directs the vampire's body and not know that the original soul is trapped in it, as I would be were you merely claiming Vaarsuvius should know all about vampires.

(The answer to either, of course, is that Vaarsuvius' high ranks in Bragging should not be confused with "Vaarsuvius is factually omniscient.")

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hmmmm. I take it that he doesn't, as he didn't know Resurrection had a 10 minute casting time and proclaimed it "not real magic" immediately upon leaning such. I like zimmerwald. I'll have to see if i can't dig that bit up.

As to the point, even if V had Know: Religion, he doesn't have nearly enough ranks, in all likelihood.

Found it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17827029&postcount=24). I definitely agree that Vaarsuvius doesn't have enough; I was just being nitpicky.

[Veya]

If this "vampire is really a new spirit inhabiting an old body" is canon in the Stickverse, then why hasn't V said anything? Surely she would know something about it with her super-super human intellect? She hasn't mentioned to Roy, "Btw, you realize that Durkon is off fighting on the plains of Asgaard and eating fried walrus in the Halls of Odin while some other spirit is occupying his body now, right?"
It is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339912-Vampire-question-settled/page8&p=17327934#post17327934), but why would V know? high int doesn't mean she'd have to know anything about that, specially something that seem to be a very obscure fact, I'd wager that vampires have no interest in people knowing they aren't just the same person undeadfied.

[orrion]

If this "vampire is really a new spirit inhabiting an old body" is canon in the Stickverse, then why hasn't V said anything? Surely she would know something about it with her super-super human intellect? She hasn't mentioned to Roy, "Btw, you realize that Durkon is off fighting on the plains of Asgaard and eating fried walrus in the Halls of Odin while some other spirit is occupying his body now, right?"

Sure, because V also knew about the Gates before he was told and knew about the Draketooth clan being dead before he stepped into the pyramid.

Oh, wait, V didn't know jack about any of that because high intellect doesn't mean omniscience.

[Pegasus]

Someone might have said this already (many apologies if so) but it might be that Belkar's body is lost, or that he doesn't want to come back (for whatever reason)

[Chd]

Someone might have said this already (many apologies if so) but it might be that Belkar's body is lost, or that he doesn't want to come back (for whatever reason)

Or Belkar will die ahead of 'his time'/the prophecy, and Durkula's refusal to raise him will be the point that Durkon is outed as not being Durkon.

[factotum]

Or Belkar will die ahead of 'his time'/the prophecy, and Durkula's refusal to raise him will be the point that Durkon is outed as not being Durkon.

But the prophecy doesn't specify that Belkar has to die at the end of the year, it just says he will die before the year is out. He could die right now and fulfil the prophecy perfectly, so there's no reason for any refusal to resurrect him to cause suspicion.

[orrion]

Or Belkar will die ahead of 'his time'/the prophecy, and Durkula's refusal to raise him will be the point that Durkon is outed as not being Durkon.

The only stipulation the prophecy had was that Belkar would have his last breath ever before the end of the year. In comic time, Belkar can die anywhere from now until then and still fulfill the prophecy. The only ways the prophecy would be negated is if he was then resurrected and didn't die again before that point or if he survived past the end of the year.

His death could have something to do with discovering the High Priest's deception, but I doubt it would be because he refused to raise him.

Also, I don't think breaking the prophecy completely is in the cards. They all have to be fulfilled. Otherwise there's not much point in giving them out. Their interpretations can be played with (and they all have been) but they still have to happen.

[CrazyCatPerson]

Is there anything in the prophecy that says that he couldn't just become a vampire? It seems like the type of thing Durkula might have to do and it would entail both dying before the year is over and not breathing any more. That, and I'm inclined to believe any of the oracle's prophecies are meaningless ramblings with enough truth that he isn't technically lying.

[Domino Quartz]

Is there anything in the prophecy that says that he couldn't just become a vampire? It seems like the type of thing Durkula might have to do and it would entail both dying before the year is over and not breathing any more. That, and I'm inclined to believe any of the oracle's prophecies are meaningless ramblings with enough truth that he isn't technically lying.

There's also the part that says he's "not long for this world." If he became a vampire, he would still be in the world. Besides, if you've been reading anything that anybody's said about vampirism in OotS world, you would know that becoming a vampire would actually be pretty terrible for Belkar - he would be trapped inside his own mind, watching while another evil soul directed his body's actions.

[factotum]

That, and I'm inclined to believe any of the oracle's prophecies are meaningless ramblings with enough truth that he isn't technically lying.

If they're meaningless ramblings, how have several of them come true already? Either they're valid prophecies or they're meaningless, they can't be *both*.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Is there anything in the prophecy that says that he couldn't just become a vampire? It seems like the type of thing Durkula might have to do and it would entail both dying before the year is over and not breathing any more. That, and I'm inclined to believe any of the oracle's prophecies are meaningless ramblings with enough truth that he isn't technically lying.

If you look at the other comment by the Oracle, it seems clear that his referring to Belkar forever leaving this world by his comments "not long for his world" "shouldn't bother funding his IRA". If he was to become a vampire, it wouldn't be all that much better than death (potentially worse, in fact) simply because Belkar wouldn't be in control. I'm not sure why you'd think the Oracle's prophecies are meaningless ramblings, since so far they've entirely come true.

[Kish]

And since Roy only ever went after Xykon because the Oracle gave Eugene that name.

"Meaningless ramblings, except that the entire plot wouldn't work without them."

[orrion]

Is there anything in the prophecy that says that he couldn't just become a vampire? It seems like the type of thing Durkula might have to do and it would entail both dying before the year is over and not breathing any more. That, and I'm inclined to believe any of the oracle's prophecies are meaningless ramblings with enough truth that he isn't technically lying.

The entire point of using prophecy as a device would fail if the prophecy was literal, to the point, and described exactly what would happen.

[Peelee]

The entire point of using prophecy as a device would fail if the prophecy was literal, to the point, and described exactly what would happen.

"Of the two given locations, Xykon will be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate first. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)"

Literal, to the point, and described exactly what would happen.

[orrion]

"Of the two given locations, Xykon will be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate first. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)"

Literal, to the point, and described exactly what would happen.

Really don't see that you disproved my point with that example considering it was a subversion of the prophecy Roy should have been asking for and that it was still vague to the point of uselessness for determining circumstances.

[Peelee]

Really don't see that you disproved my point with that example considering it was a subversion of the prophecy Roy should have been asking for and that it was still vague to the point of uselessness for determining circumstances.

It wasn't a subversion at all. It was very clear in the strip that Roy was asking the wrong question. The Oracle gave an answer that was direct, clear, and correct, which later proved to directly help the Order (as they knew to head for Girad's Gate when they regrouped after the fall of Azure City). I'm not sure how you see that as a subversive prophecy that was vague in any way.

[Unisus]

Yes, the Girard's Gate prophecy was very exact - as well as the Xykon prophecy and the Varsuvius prophecy. The reason for that is that there were questions with very narrow room for an answer.

That was the whole point of the Girard's Gate prophecy - that Roy outsmarted himself by narrowing down the room for the answer.

[Peelee]

Yes, the Girard's Gate prophecy was very exact - as well as the Xykon prophecy and the Varsuvius prophecy. The reason for that is that there were questions with very narrow room for an answer.

That was the whole point of the Girard's Gate prophecy - that Roy outsmarted himself by narrowing down the room for the answer.

So the point of the prophecy - which was that it was very exact - was negated by the prophecy being very exact?

Also, the point of the prophecy was for the Order to go to the correct gate after the fall of Azure City. So I would purport that the precise, correct prophecy fulfilled the purpose of the prophecy.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Really don't see that you disproved my point with that example considering it was a subversion of the prophecy Roy should have been asking for and that it was still vague to the point of uselessness for determining circumstances.

Your point was that prophecy as a device fails if the prophecy is precise, clear, and to the point. Peelee gave an example of a prophecy that met those terms but didn't fail as a device. I think it would be better to say that prophecy fails as a device if it tells you exactly what you need to know and can only be interpreted one way.

[Porthos]

A couple of points. To see what Rich thinks about prophecy in terms of storytelling, one can do worse than look at his comments about it in War and XPs. At one point he brings up Bablyon 5 as an influence (paraphrasing since I don't have it in front of me).

Yes, he points out the possibility of subversion. But he also talks about the joy of seeing the riddle/puzzle unfold as events happen.

Second point: The prophecy regarding Durkon was in fact rather straightforward.... when it was combined with the one in Origins. It didn't take long at all for people to add two and two together in regards to the dual prophecies. That most people looked at Xykon/Redcloak as the source of undeadification and not a heretofore unknown character is neither here nor there.

[brian 333]

I'm going with the idea that an annoyed Durkula creates a vampire-spawn Belkar, and then sends him out into the sunlight without his protections.

Roy: "Where's Belkar?"
Durkula: "Dunno, laddie, last I seen 'im was on th' bow a tha ship."

[Vinyadan]

I'm going with the idea that an annoyed Durkula creates a vampire-spawn Belkar, and then sends him out into the sunlight without his protections.

Roy: "Where's Belkar?"
Durkula: "Dunno, laddie, last I seen 'im was on th' bow a tha ship."

He could just cast destruction on him. ZOT. It would also make his resurrection beyond Dorkula's magical ability.

[Kish]

That would target Belkar's strongest save.

[brian 333]

Vampire Spawn Durkula didn't know he wasn't supposed to stand in sunlight, so it's apparent newly made vampires require training.

If anything tried to get inside Belkar's head, his ego would have them tied up in knots in short order. Imagine entering someone's mind with intent to do vile, evil, things, only to find that the mind is prepared to do them back, and first! I can't imagine anything getting inside the Belkster's mind that could compete with the Sexy Shoeless God Of War. (Poor baby vampire spawn... One could feel sorry for it.)

So, we have a case where Durkula realizes that if he drains Belkar he has a short period of control at best before Belkar takes over, and a vampire Belkar would be a horror that frightens any vampire, especially one he hates as much as Durkula.

Then this is the good part: Belkar's leaps from the ship give Durkula a perfect cover. Durkon immediately orders the spawn Belkar to jump off the ship in daylight. That they can't ever find a body to recover is never considered as suspicious, the area they travel over in an airship is huge. As far as Roy is concerned, Belkar simply tried once too many times to get attention.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Vampire Spawn Durkula didn't know he wasn't supposed to stand in sunlight, so it's apparent newly made vampires require training.
However, he quickly realized that the sunlight burned and moved away.


If anything tried to get inside Belkar's head, his ego would have them tied up in knots in short order. Imagine entering someone's mind with intent to do vile, evil, things, only to find that the mind is prepared to do them back, and first! I can't imagine anything getting inside the Belkster's mind that could compete with the Sexy Shoeless God Of War. (Poor baby vampire spawn... One could feel sorry for it.)

So, we have a case where Durkula realizes that if he drains Belkar he has a short period of control at best before Belkar takes over, and a vampire Belkar would be a horror that frightens any vampire, especially one he hates as much as Durkula.

Then this is the good part: Belkar's leaps from the ship give Durkula a perfect cover. Durkon immediately orders the spawn Belkar to jump off the ship in daylight. That they can't ever find a body to recover is never considered as suspicious, the area they travel over in an airship is huge. As far as Roy is concerned, Belkar simply tried once too many times to get attention.

I find it beyond nextremely unlikely that Belkar would be able to fight off the vampire spirit (especially with his record of abysmal Will), but even if he did the High Priest of Hel could still make him into his thrall; in fact he would need to do this to keep control no matter what. So, Belkar would be his obedient pet until either is destroyed.

[evileeyore]

Why will the Belksters death be permanent?

Because Rich Burlew hates.