Natural weapons master

[Spacehamster]

So what classes/feats would be good for a half dragon half minotaur that wants to focus on using his natural weapons mainly? Saw a feat that grants a tail attack to a char with dragon blood. So that would be good I suppose?

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!

[Darrin]

You want Totemist from Magic of Incarnum. The Dragon Tail feat is in Races of the Dragon. Add Prehensile Tail (Savage Species/Serpent Kingdoms) and the tail can wield a weapon/shield. The "Dragon Tail" soulmeld can be found in Dragon Magic, and that adds a tail sweep attack.

[PraxisVetli]

Rend.
If you've a DM that will let it run character HD, or if you just have sufficient Racial HD, the Feral Template from Savage Species is nice.
Also, a shoutout to Black Blood Cultist from Champions of Ruin, though it's heavily Grapple based, so that's on you if its useful.
Half-Dragon will qualify you for Rapidstrike and Improved.
Barbarian for Pounce, always nice. Also helps qualify for BBC.
A +1 Valorous Necklace of Natural Weapons could help if your charging a lot.
That's all I got for now.

[Jeff the Green]

For natural weapons there are really three main choices: Totemist, as mentioned, druid, and warlock. Druid will have big problems with all that LA you've got there, and the warlock's claws probably can't be used with the half-dragon's natural weapons.

[Kennisiou]

For natural weapons there are really three main choices: Totemist, as mentioned, druid, and warlock. Druid will have big problems with all that LA you've got there, and the warlock's claws probably can't be used with the half-dragon's natural weapons.

Fangshield ranger is also an option for natural weapon users. Best as a 2-6 level dip on a build, it lacks some (but not all) of the best spells for natural weapon use at the druid's disposal in exchange for getting a number of useful bonus feats and more skill points. I cannot recall whether or not minotaurs have scent, but if they do that track bonus feat from ranger is extra tasty.

Spacehamster: in general, natural attacking classes focus on gaining natural weapons and then using the ones they gain. Often this works since they can enhance natural weapons they already have (druid is great for this, and ranger's not terrible), but in the case of totemist and a number of other natural weapon users you're often not gaining much mileage out of already having natural weapons since your class features give you better natural weapons than the ones you'll enter with racially.

Honestly, you don't even need to take a class focused on natural attacking if you're a race that has them naturally. Grabbing levels in barbarian, martial initiators like warblade and swordsage, and even monk, ranger, or fighter can be powerful on these builds. Getting one level in barb for pounce from spirit lion totem barbarian then nabbing some fighter levels to grab the essential ubercharger bonus feats is not a bad build path to take. Dip one level of monk for improved unarmed strike and greater unarmed damage that way you can attack with every attack you get as part of your manufactured weapon routine's iterative attacks then follow up with all of your natural attacks (if you wield a weapon then doing this is harder). A Fangshields ranger/scout with swift hunter, one level monk and one level barb is going to be pretty solid at using natural weapons.

Or you can just go full druid and cast spells that make your natural weapons stronger than everything I mentioned.

[Spacehamster]

Thanks for all the suggestions! :) will investigate when I get home from work, btw is there anything that you can get that gives you full STR dmg bonus with the secondary natural attacks? :)

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!

[Darrin]

Thanks for all the suggestions! :) will investigate when I get home from work, btw is there anything that you can get that gives you full STR dmg bonus with the secondary natural attacks? :)


Monks get full Str damage on their offhand unarmed strikes. And Bloodclaw Masters (Tome of Battle) get full Str on offhand attacks if it's a Tiger Claw weapon, which includes claws and unarmed strikes.

[Spacehamster]

Monks get full Str damage on their offhand unarmed strikes. And Bloodclaw Masters (Tome of Battle) get full Str on offhand attacks if it's a Tiger Claw weapon, which includes claws and unarmed strikes.

Does secondary natural attacks count as offhand strikes? Meaning that 1 level monk gives you full str dmg bonus to the secondary nat attacks?

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!

[Darrin]

Does secondary natural attacks count as offhand strikes?


Generally, no. Secondary natural attacks can't be offhand attacks. But Bloodclaw Master (and Shifter claws) are somewhat of an oddball exception, where you can use a claw as an offhand attack.



Meaning that 1 level monk gives you full str dmg bonus to the secondary nat attacks?


No. Monks get full Str damage on all unarmed strikes, and those have different rules than secondary natural attacks. Unarmed strikes are treated similar to manufactured weapons for determining how often you attack with them (they get iteratives), but are treated as natural weapons for most everything else (although there is a somewhat long list of weird corner-case issues).

Sorry, I think I may have confused you. A better answer to your question would have been, "No, secondary natural attacks always get 1/2 Str bonus, but there are a few exceptions where you can use a natural attack as an offhand weapon and still get full Str bonus on damage."

[Seffbasilisk]

If you can get some Warshaper in there, you'll be able to grow more natural weapons and bump yours up a size category.

[Forrestfire]

Changeling Totemist x/Pouncebarian 1/Warshaper 1 is kinda amazing for natural attacks (does Totemist get a source of pounce? You can drop the barbarian level, then).

[Karnith]

(does Totemist get a source of pounce? You can drop the barbarian level, then).
Yes, through the hand bind of Sphinx Claws.

The Barbarian dip is still worth considering, though, to save on Chakra binds and to give you Rage(/Whirling Frenzy/whatever).

[Kennisiou]

Sorry, I think I may have confused you. A better answer to your question would have been, "No, secondary natural attacks always get 1/2 Str bonus, but there are a few exceptions where you can use a natural attack as an offhand weapon and still get full Str bonus on damage."

I was under the impression that how much damage a natural attack gets doesn't actually have anything to do with whether it's primary or secondary. Looking at monster entries for certain monsters you'll see things like claws with full strength, bite and tail with 1.5 strength. None of the attacks get diminished str returns. I was basically under the impression that whether you get full or reduced or bonus str on a natural attack depended on what monster you were and what the attack was (bite and tail attack almost always get 1.5x, claws get .5x or 1x, slams almost always get 1x, etc).


Edit: Also, for any build I suggest you find a way to get improved unarmed strike. One level of monk or a monk's belt or just taking the feat all work, but you want it. Improved unarmed strike on a natural attacks build is basically just a feat that gives you 1-4 bonus attacks. Totally worth it.

[Spacehamster]

Oh btw does prehensile tail weapon attacks get more attacks from improved and greater two weapon fighting?

[Beardbarian]

You may want to add Snap Kick (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/snap-kick--2658/). It stacks with natural Attacks

[Andezzar]

I was under the impression that how much damage a natural attack gets doesn't actually have anything to do with whether it's primary or secondary. Looking at monster entries for certain monsters you'll see things like claws with full strength, bite and tail with 1.5 strength. None of the attacks get diminished str returns. I was basically under the impression that whether you get full or reduced or bonus str on a natural attack depended on what monster you were and what the attack was (bite and tail attack almost always get 1.5x, claws get .5x or 1x, slams almost always get 1x, etc).The rule is that the primary attack (or a pair of identical ones) get Full STR to damage. All secondary attacks get 0.5 STR to damage. If the creature only has one Natural attack it gets 1.5 STR to damage. The entries of indidvidual mosnsters may be false or the monster in question has rules that overwrite this general rule (under Full Attack) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm)

The King of Smack (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/910286) might also interest you.

[Spacehamster]

So does anyone know if you get two weapon attacks with prehensive tail if you get improved two weapon fighting? :)

[Andezzar]

So does anyone know if you get two weapon attacks with prehensive tail if you get improved two weapon fighting? :)With improved two-weapon fighting you either get two attacks with your off hand or with your tail. Improved multi-weapon fighting would give you two attacks with all three

[Spacehamster]

With improved two-weapon fighting you either get two attacks with your off hand or with your tail. Improved multi-weapon fighting would give you two attacks with all three

Ok so if i wield a greatsword with my hands and a battleaxe with my tail and have imp two weapon fighting i would get the extra attack? :)

Cant get multi attack sadly since dont have 3 arms, if a prehensive tail dont count as a arm that is?

[Andezzar]

Ok so if i wield a greatsword with my hands and a battleaxe with my tail and have imp two weapon fighting i would get the extra attack? :)Yup. Whether the marginal increase in damage over a greatsword and armor spikes is worth the investment is up to you.


Cant get multi attack sadly since dont have 3 arms, if a prehensive tail dont count as a arm that is?You are in luck:
If you have two hands, your tail counts as a third hand for the purpose of the Multiweapon Fighting feat and all other feats for which it is a prerequisite.

[Darrin]

Ok so if i wield a greatsword with my hands and a battleaxe with my tail and have imp two weapon fighting i would get the extra attack? :)


Yes, you can do that, but since the battleaxe is not a light weapon, your TWF penalties would be -4 primary/-4 offhand. You'd want to wield a light weapon in your tail or take Oversize TWF (Complete Adventurer).

It's not entirely clear how Multiweapon Fighting interacts with other TWF feats, though. While MWF appears in the 3.5 MM, Improved MWF and Greater MWF only appear in Savage Species, so it's not clear if they were intended to work with the 3.0 or 3.5 TWF rules.

My general advice is to treat TWF and MWF as interchangeable: if you take TWF, then somehow wind up with three or more hands later, you just swap in the MWF feats. For prereq purposes, I advise just treating MWF/Improved MWF/Greater MWF exactly as if they were their TWF counterparts.



Cant get multi attack sadly since dont have 3 arms, if a prehensive tail dont count as a arm that is?

As Andezzar was so kind to point out, yes it counts.

[gorfnab]

If you don't mind being evil a level of Soul Eater (BoVD) is great for natural attack based builds.

[Shieldbunny]

Cant get multi attack sadly since dont have 3 arms, if a prehensive tail dont count as a arm that is?

Multi-attack says 3 or more natural attacks, more arms. Your a half-dragon minotaur. You have 2 claws, a bite, and a gore, you can take multi-attack.

[DeltaEmil]

Thayan Gladiator from Champions of Ruin focuses on natural weapons.

[Andezzar]

Multi-attack says 3 or more natural attacks, more arms. Your a half-dragon minotaur. You have 2 claws, a bite, and a gore, you can take multi-attack.Multiattack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#multiattack) =/= Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#multiweaponFighting). One reduces the penalties for secondary natural attacks and the other is TWF for creatures with more than two arms and (generally) only works with weapons wielded in hands.

Hmm Improved and Greater Multiweapon Fighting only appear on d20SRD and not in the SRD document. Strange.

[Spacehamster]

Well the char is made will be using weapons as normal, triple wielding 2 warhammers and 1 longsword, all huge sized due to large + strongarm bracers, now to a really noob question: during a full attack can you spread your blows over several enemies that are in your threatened area? Asking cause for fun I tok feat hammers edge that lets me knock ppl prone if I hit with both hammer and sword. So would be nice to spread the prone love.

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond

[Andezzar]

Yup. Your attacks can be distributed among all creatures in your threatened area. The only problem is that with three "arms" you will either have more hammer attacks (2 hammers, 1 sword) or more sword attacks (2 swords, 1 hammer), so you will have excess attacks that cannot be paired with attacks from the other weapon.

[Spacehamster]

Yup. Your attacks can be distributed among all creatures in your threatened area. The only problem is that with three "arms" you will either have more hammer attacks (2 hammers, 1 sword) or more sword attacks (2 swords, 1 hammer), so you will have excess attacks that cannot be paired with attacks from the other weapon.

yeah aware of that but still at current level(9) thats 2 hammer and 2 sword that I can spread and hit ppl prone,
and 2 is better then one. :) And thanks for the answer. :)

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!