Making a cold based sorcerer

[Hazrond]

So playground denizens, i was wondering what is the most optimized build you can think of for a sorcerer that is based around cold and ice? im assuming it probably has levels of Frost Mage (http://dndtools.eu/classes/frost-mage/) but what else? please tell me what is the strongest ice sorcerer build you can think of? :smallsmile:

P.S.: Does anybody know the term for a frost mage? i know a fire mage has pyromancer but what does ice get in that vein of thinking?

[oldkingkoal]

Cryomancer maybe?

[JusticeZero]

"Cryomancer" if you want to use the Greek. Latin would probably pe something closer to "Friomagus" or some such thing (Frigidus=cold, Glacius=ice, magus is obvious)

[Hazrond]

Cryomancer maybe?


"Cryomancer" if you want to use the Greek. Latin would probably pe something closer to "Friomagus" or some such thing (Frigidus=cold, Glacius=ice, magus is obvious)

Cryomancer sounds good, now what of the build, im not the best at optimization so i would like to know what other people around here would make? (ive seen some of the people around here and the builds they make for the various challenges, very impressive by my standards) :smallsmile:

[supersonic29]

I'd just be sure to, while keeping yourself in theme by taking cold spells which are available to you and not taking other elements, don't avoid things like magic missile or haste which are just good spells that don't work against your theme. Also idk if this is for a campaign starting at a certain level or anything, but you definitely want the 4th level of Frost Mage ASAP because until then you'd have the potential to keep getting immunity blocked.

Also if all books are open to you, browse around things like frostburn's spells and the spell compendium for nifty ice spells, it's a theme character, have fun with it!

[Vhaidara]

Frost Mage is probably your best call. I actually made one a while ago using Wizard, here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?330726-Frost-Mage-Spells-and-Feats) the thread where we discussed it. I got permission from my GM to reduce Piercing Cold to a +0 metamagic because it's a frostfell campaign and that actually makes ice mages a lot less useful.

[Hazrond]

I'd just be sure to, while keeping yourself in theme by taking cold spells which are available to you and not taking other elements, don't avoid things like magic missile or haste which are just good spells that don't work against your theme. Also idk if this is for a campaign starting at a certain level or anything, but you definitely want the 4th level of Frost Mage ASAP because until then you'd have the potential to keep getting immunity blocked.

Also if all books are open to you, browse around things like frostburn's spells and the spell compendium for nifty ice spells, it's a theme character, have fun with it!

I was actually planning to take a few off element spells like fireball and such but use the Energy Substitution metamagic to make them cold whenever i actually cast them, i was also thinking of using Spell Thematics (Ice and Snow) to help the theme even more and increase the DCs to figure out my spells were :smallbiggrin:

[supersonic29]

I was actually planning to take a few off element spells like fireball and such but use the Energy Substitution metamagic to make them cold whenever i actually cast them, i was also thinking of using Spell Thematics (Ice and Snow) to help the theme even more and increase the DCs to figure out my spells were :smallbiggrin:

Oh yeah energy substitution will really get you the best of all worlds, can't believe I forgot about that. Again as long as you hit 4th level Frostmage ASAP you'll be as golden as any sorcerer

[Hazrond]

Oh yeah energy substitution will really get you the best of all worlds, can't believe I forgot about that. Again as long as you hit 4th level Frostmage ASAP you'll be as golden as any sorcerer

it needs another metamagic feat for me to take it though hmm... what are your thoughts on Flash Frost Spell?

[WeaselGuy]

I'm personally a fan of Lord of the Uttercold, being able to through out some negative energy damage can be helpful sometimes, although once you get Piercing Cold, it's probably not worth it anymore...
( Complete Arcane, p. 80)

[Metamagic]


Through careful study of the Elemental Planes and their interactions with the Negative Energy Plane, you have learned to wield the uttercold.

Prerequisite

Energy Substitution (CAr) (cold) , Knowledge (the planes) 9 ranks, ability to cast a spell with the cold descriptor,


Benefit

You can turn spells with the cold descriptor into uttercold spells. Half the damage dealt by an uttercold spell is cold damage, and the other half is negative energy damage. The spell's saving throw remains unchanged, but creatures can apply cold resistance or immunity to cold only to the cold portion of the damage. An undead creature can be healed by the negative energy damage of an uttercold spell, though if it doesn't have resistance to cold, the effects of damage and healing cancel each other out. An uttercold spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.


With that being said however, going Human (or Strongheart Halfling) Wizard 5 into Frost Mage, the following feats would be in order:
H - Snowcasting
1 - Frozen Magic
3 - Cold Focus
5 - Energy Substitution (Cold) Metamagic Feat
6 - Energy Substitution (Cold)
9 - Frostfell Prodigy
12 - Cold Spell Specialization

*edit* - Just read the bit about needing another Metamagic feat for Energy Substitution...

[Hazrond]

I'm personally a fan of Lord of the Uttercold, being able to through out some negative energy damage can be helpful sometimes, although once you get Piercing Cold, it's probably not worth it anymore...
( Complete Arcane, p. 80)

[Metamagic]


Through careful study of the Elemental Planes and their interactions with the Negative Energy Plane, you have learned to wield the uttercold.

Prerequisite

Energy Substitution (CAr) (cold) , Knowledge (the planes) 9 ranks, ability to cast a spell with the cold descriptor,


Benefit

You can turn spells with the cold descriptor into uttercold spells. Half the damage dealt by an uttercold spell is cold damage, and the other half is negative energy damage. The spell's saving throw remains unchanged, but creatures can apply cold resistance or immunity to cold only to the cold portion of the damage. An undead creature can be healed by the negative energy damage of an uttercold spell, though if it doesn't have resistance to cold, the effects of damage and healing cancel each other out. An uttercold spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.


With that being said however, going Human (or Strongheart Halfling) Wizard 5 into Frost Mage, the following feats would be in order:
H - Snowcasting
1 - Frozen Magic
3 - Cold Focus
5 - Energy Substitution (Cold)
6 - Frostfell Prodigy
9 - Cold Spell Specialization

Heh if i go human maybe i should take ranks of Perform (Sing) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk) while im at it :smallwink:.
I will go check out those feats though they sound like they would be pretty good :smallsmile:

Edit: did not see that it was wizard, i want to play a sorcerer specifically if that isnt too much trouble

[lytokk]

Is there a reserve feat to the frozen tune of Fiery Burst? If there is it could come in handy. If there isn't, there really should be.

[supersonic29]

it needs another metamagic feat for me to take it though hmm... what are your thoughts on Flash Frost Spell?

Flashfrost sounds good, but I just waver on whether I think it's worth bumping a spell slot when other things that do that include maximize/empower spell. I guess free grease in a way? The checks dont scale though, but prone is also a great situation to create, but it could also hinder your party... it's a mixed feelings feat.

[Hazrond]

Flashfrost sounds good, but I just waver on whether I think it's worth bumping a spell slot when other things that do that include maximize/empower spell. I guess free grease in a way? The checks dont scale though, but prone is also a great situation to create, but it could also hinder your party... it's a mixed feelings feat.

Empower would probably be good, im a tad mixed on maximize simply due to the cost even though its a good feat from what i can tell, three spell slots higher just seems so pricey to me :/

Edit: also the DM is allowing flaws so extra feats are on the table, i also dont think he actually put a limit on the amount of flaws take-able and he IS allowing homebrew ones on a case-by-case basis :smallcool:

[supersonic29]

Yeah Maximize is a mixed feelings thing, but I immediately know how you can break the scaling cap.Channeled Sound Blast (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-mage--58/channeled-sound-blast--818/) Will be nasty and you can substitute it for cold with energy substitution. If you maximized that at a high level and the scaling went past 10 dice... oh my.

Edit: Since a maximized one of those would come at 16th level of sorcerer to have the spell per day, that would be an automatic 160 damage to everything in a 60ft radius. Takes 2 rounds yes, but the simple AOE factor is nothing to sneeze at.

[Hazrond]

Yeah Maximize is a mixed feelings thing, but I immediately know how you can break the scaling cap.Channeled Sound Blast (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-mage--58/channeled-sound-blast--818/) Will be nasty and you can substitute it for cold with energy substitution. If you maximized that at a high level and the scaling went past 10 dice... oh my.

Yeah that would be nice, but you may not want to count on that whole no scaling cap thing, i have multiple groups i am playing with and thats only in one of them, i would prefer this char to be useable in the others as well (ALL of them use flaws though :smallbiggrin:)

[Vhaidara]

8th level spell slot for 6xCL in 30ft cone as a standard, 8xCL as a full, or 10xCL for 2 fulls sounds awful.

[supersonic29]

Yeah that would be nice, but you may not want to count on that whole no scaling cap thing, i have multiple groups i am playing with and thats only in one of them, i would prefer this char to be useable in the others as well (ALL of them use flaws though :smallbiggrin:)

Fair enough, channeled sound blast is cool imo either way though. Maybe it isn't worth the maximize, maximize is of questionable worth in general, but it could be worth an empower and it could be made into cold damage.

[Hazrond]

8th level spell slot for 6xCL in 30ft cone as a standard, 8xCL as a full, or 10xCL for 2 fulls sounds awful.

Well then could you suggest some spells for me to take? Things that can be Energy Substitution-ed or are cold based on their own?

Edit: i also figure that Shivering Touch would be a good choice because dragons be screwed with that stuff around :smallbiggrin:

[Hazrond]

Can anybody also think of any prestige classes that would be good to fill the 5 extra levels of this build? i have five levels of sorcerer and 10 levels of frost mage in there, i need another 5 levels of something to fill the gap to level 20

[Vhaidara]

Well, from the thread I linked earlier, I give you my spell list from Frost Mage. Mine was a wizard, but this is still a good starting point.



1
Glaze Lock
Ice Dagger
Lesseer Orb of Cold
Path of Frost
Ice Skate (DM let me have this one)
Snilloc's Snowball
Cutting Hand
Bigby's Tripping Hand
Greater Mage Hand
Conjure Ice Beast I

2
Ray of Ice
Zone of Glacial Cold
Darsson's Chilling Chamber
Leomund's Tiny Igloo
Conjure Ice Beast II

3
Hailstones
Ice Burst
Control Temperature
Crack Ice

4
Orb of Cold
Column of Ice
Defenestrating Sphere
Wall of Ice

5
Boreal Wind
Cone of Cold
Freezing Fog
Ice Shape

6
Entomb
Freezing Fog
Extract Water Elemental
Chain Lightning
Animate Snow Class Feature

7
Greater Glacial Ward
Ice Claw
Ice Castle
Control Weather
Statue

8
Polar Ray
Field of Icy Razors
Lightning Ring
Stormwalk

9
Frostfell Class Feature
Burst off Glacial Wrath
Iceberg
Imprisonment
Summon Elemental Monolith

It's focused on control with a secondary of blasting. And I wasn't using Energy Sub.

EDIT: Grab Archmage

[PraxisVetli]

If you're grabbing Energy Substitution, then don't forget the orb line. Good damage, ranged touch, and possible status effects.
Also, good old fashioned Polar Ray.
Kelgore's Grave Mist, also if you ES Acid Fog.
Whats that no save SR:no sound cantrip?
Sonic jolt or snap or clap.
I dunno. But that would be good for low levels.

[supersonic29]

Well then could you suggest some spells for me to take? Things that can be Energy Substitution-ed or are cold based on their own?

Edit: i also figure that Shivering Touch would be a good choice because dragons be screwed with that stuff around :smallbiggrin:

You do have to make the touch attack before the dex damage though, and in melee range at that.

[WeaselGuy]

Heh if i go human maybe i should take ranks of Perform (Sing) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk) while im at it :smallwink:.
I will go check out those feats though they sound like they would be pretty good :smallsmile:

Edit: did not see that it was wizard, i want to play a sorcerer specifically if that isnt too much trouble

Well, for a Sorcerer build instead, you'd be looking at pretty much the same build, Human/Strongheart Halfling Sor 5/FM 10/Other Caster Class
H - Snowcasting
1 - Frozen Magic
3 - Cold Focus
6 - Flash Frost Spell
9 - Energy Substitution (Cold)
12 - Frostfell Prodigy
15 - Cold Spell Specialization
18 - ???

For another thematic caster class, maybe consider Stormcaster, from Stormwrack? It's 9/10 casting progression, skipping the first one. It's built around Electric Damage, but it's still pretty badass sounding, being the master of the elements, flinging spells from the center of a storm/blizzard...

(Stormwrack variant, p. 72)


The stormcaster is one who seeks to tap into the power of a strange and terrifying phenomenon: the raging storm.


Requirements


Alignment: Any nonlawful

Skills:Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks , Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks

Spellcasting: Must have the ability to cast gust of wind and either lightning bolt or call lightning.


Hit die

d4


Class Features

Storm Spell Power (Ex): You are truly skilled in the use of spells that wield the power of the stormy seas. Any spell you cast that has the air, electricity, sonic, or water descriptor is cast at +2 caster level.

Thunderclap (Su): You can channel stored spell energy into pure sonic energy. You can lose any prepared spell or spell slot in order to generate a 30-foot-radius burst of sonic energy. The burst deals 1d4 points of sonic damage per level of the spell slot to all targets in the area; any creature damaged by this effect is stunned for 1 round. A Fortitude save halves this damage and negates the stun effect. You are immune to your own thunderclap power. This otherwise functions like the cleric's spontaneous casting class feature (see page 32 of the Player's Handbook).

Resistance to Electricity (Ex): At 2nd level, you gain some ability to resist the deadly power of lightning (resistance to electricity 10).

Spellcasting: Beginning at 2nd level, when you gain a new stormcaster level you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a stormcaster, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known.

Shield of Winds (Sp): Starting at 3rd level, you can call up high winds to cast aside the arrows of your foes. As an immediate action (equivalent to a free action, except you can take it when it isn't your turn), you can surround your space with an effect equal to a wind wall (see page 302 of the Player's Handbook) for 1 round. You can use this ability once per day at 3rd level, two times per day at 6th level, and three times per day at 9th level.

Eye of the Storm (Ex): Even in a storm, the winds whipping around you seem to leave you unaffected. Beginning at 4th level, you ignore the penalties associated with ranged attack rolls and Listen checks due to high winds (see page 95 of the Dungeon Master's Guide). Actions that are impossible in high winds (such as using ranged attacks in winds above 50 mph) are still impossible. At 8th level, you gain the ability to share this protection with any number of allies within 30 feet. Granting (or removing) this benefit from any number of allies is a free action.

Thunderbolt (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, you use your knowledge of the storm to add the power of thunder to your lightning-based spells. Any spell you cast that deals electricity damage also deals an extra 1 point of sonic damage per spell level and stuns any creature damaged by the spell for 1 round (Fortitude save negates; DC equals the save DC of the spell, even if the spell wouldn't normally allow a save).

Resistance to Sonic (Ex): At 7th level, you become somewhat resistant to the power of thunder. You gain resistance to sonic 10.

Call Storm (Sp): You only feel fully at home within the confines of a storm. At 8th level, you gain the ability to use a control weather effect once per week but can only create a windstorm, thunderstorm, or hurricane-force winds (see page 214 of the Player's Handbook and pages 94—95 of the Dungeon Master's Guide). You are treated as a druid when using this ability (or when casting control weather through your own spellcasting power) for the purpose of duration and area of the spell.

Lord of the Storm (Su): At 10th level, your mastery of the power of the storm is complete. You gain resistance to electricity 30 and resistance to sonic 30. You are immune to being blown away, knocked down, or checked by high winds (whether natural or magical). You gain a +2 competence bonus on saves against spells with the air or water descriptor.

[Ramza00]

Boreal Wind is a nice 5th level spell for a sorcerer.
Create an effect that is 20ft Wide, 20ft High and ends up to a maximum of long range (thus we are talking 800 to 1200 feet)
10d4 to 15d4 damage per round to all creatures but not items and objects
Can trigger things that need a gust of wind to do (such as removing fogs)
You can use a move action to move the wind and thus the things you are targeting, if you do not use any action the wind continues for caster level /2 +1 round (so we are talking 6 rounds when you first get the spell) in the same place.
Creatures are blown back 3 feet per caster level
Since the effect lasts for multiple rounds and does not require concentration you can layer multiple spells after casting the initial spell.
Not mention in the spell but if you are still in the effect after the 1st round you take constant damage as mentioned in the spell. To my understanding you will need to make concentration checks to begin casting again.

And the sad thing the druid gets this at level 7 as a 4th level spell, and he can always wildshape as a hawk, and be able to weak total destruction from a safe distance. (DMs can be pure evil if they want to be with enemies Druids)

[Hazrond]

You do have to make the touch attack before the dex damage though, and in melee range at that.

Would not either reach spell or ocular spell make it a ray that i can fire at the dragon? (with ocular its firing from my EYES no less :smallbiggrin:)

Edit: also should i consider grabbing eschew materials? so many of these spells use ice and snow and such as a component and i know one DM who might just say "No you dont have it in your pouch, it melted days ago"

[Ramza00]

Icemail Armor adds +2 to the spell dc of all cold spells
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030323a

Forgot to mention with boreal blast, you can always use Bracer of Entangling Blast with them (MiC 2,000 gp)

3 times a day, with your damaging spell the creatures are also entangled if they take damage, but the damage is half as normal. They are entangled for 1d3 rounds. Since creatures that are entangled move at half speed and can't run, it is quite easy to keep a multiple targets in 20ft wide effect.

[ArqArturo]

Do you wanna make a snowman? :smallamused:.

[supersonic29]

Would not either reach spell or ocular spell make it a ray that i can fire at the dragon? (with ocular its firing from my EYES no less :smallbiggrin:)

Edit: also should i consider grabbing eschew materials? so many of these spells use ice and snow and such as a component and i know one DM who might just say "No you dont have it in your pouch, it melted days ago"

Disclaimer: Skimmed them

But yeah I suppose so, but still you have to beat their touch with your BAB and dex bonuses, usually doable, but it's a dice roll.

[Hazrond]

Do you wanna make a snowman? :smallamused:.

Well i do gain Animate Snow from Frost Mage :smalltongue:

Edit: Slightly off-topic but i just noticed that almost ALL of elsa's abilities in the movie are spells a sorcerer can obtain, you got Heartfreeze (http://dndtools.eu/spells/frostburn--68/heartfreeze--1287/), Ice Castle (http://dndtools.eu/spells/frostburn--68/ice-castle--1253/), Fimbulwinter (http://dndtools.eu/spells/frostburn--68/fimbulwinter--1306/), Animate Snow (http://dndtools.eu/spells/frostburn--68/animate-snow--1296/), need i continue? :smalltongue:

[Vaz]

If you have lots of spells, my favourite way of getting an insanely high Caster Level is;

Dragontouched, Snowcasting, Draconic Aura, Spell Focus (Cold), Greater Spell Focus (Cold), Spell Focus (whatever school you're choosing), Greater Spell Focus (as before), in conjunction with Icemail armour (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030323a) for +10 to DC's. You have no Arcane Spell Failure when casting cold spells (i.e Every Spell you can cast)

In conjunction with how "easy" it is to improve Charisma (compared to Int, say), you have a much higher chance of getting an ultra high DC. A human with 18 Base, and +6 Item +5 Tome and +5 from levelling has 34 Cha, or +12 to DC. Add on the above feats/items etc and you're at +22. Add that on to something like Iceberg for a 9th level spell, you've got a DC31 spell. Add on everything else, such as a Magic Blooded Unseelie Venerable Lesser Aasimar, you've got yourself a further +7 Charisma, taking you to DC34 - even a 20th level Cleric with 20 Wisdom (likely higher), would still only have a 20% chance of passing such a save (although one build to similar levels of optimization probably has a +5 Resistance, and hence a +28 to saves - but even so, would still require an 8+, meaning they have a 33& chance of failing, which is still a hell of a lot.

[Hazrond]

If you have lots of spells, my favourite way of getting an insanely high Caster Level is;

Dragontouched, Snowcasting, Draconic Aura, Spell Focus (Cold), Greater Spell Focus (Cold), Spell Focus (whatever school you're choosing), Greater Spell Focus (as before), in conjunction with Icemail armour (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030323a) for +10 to DC's. You have no Arcane Spell Failure when casting cold spells (i.e Every Spell you can cast)

In conjunction with how "easy" it is to improve Charisma (compared to Int, say), you have a much higher chance of getting an ultra high DC. A human with 18 Base, and +6 Item +5 Tome and +5 from levelling has 34 Cha, or +12 to DC. Add on the above feats/items etc and you're at +22. Add that on to something like Iceberg for a 9th level spell, you've got a DC31 spell. Add on everything else, such as a Magic Blooded Unseelie Venerable Lesser Aasimar, you've got yourself a further +7 Charisma, taking you to DC34 - even a 20th level Cleric with 20 Wisdom (likely higher), would still only have a 20% chance of passing such a save (although one build to similar levels of optimization probably has a +5 Resistance, and hence a +28 to saves - but even so, would still require an 8+, meaning they have a 33& chance of failing, which is still a hell of a lot.

Wow i see some Grade-A gouda in there, im not the kind of guy to try stuff like a Vulnerable Magic Blooded Unseelie Lesser Aasimar, thats a bit TOO much cheese for me, still alot of this was useful, thanks :smallsmile:

[jjcrpntr]

Didn't see this mentioned but I'd throw out piercing cold as a metamagic feat to qualify for energy substitution.

Piercing Cold
Frostburn, p. 49

[Metamagic]

Your cold spells are so cold that they can damage creatures normally resistant or immune to cold.
Prerequisite

Benefit

You can only apply this metamagic feat to spells with the cold descriptor. Piercing cold spells are so horribly cold that they are capable of damaging creatures normally unharmed by or resistant to cold. Piercing cold spells completely ignore any resistance to cold a creature possesses, bypassing this resistance and dealing damage to the target as if it did not possess any resistance to cold at all. They are still entitled to whatever other defenses the attack allows (such as saving throws and spell resistance).

Creatures normally immune to cold can be damaged by piercing cold spells as well. Piercing cold spells deal half damage to these creatures (or one-quarter on a successful saving throw). For example, Mialee casts a piercing cold cone of cold at a night hag, a creature normally immune to cold. She makes her level check to penetrate the night hag's spell resistance, but the night hag makes her Reflex save against the spell. Mialee rolls the dice, and her cone of cold deals 42 points of cold damage; since the night hag made her save, the damage is halved to 21 points. This damage is then halved again (since the night hag is normally immune to cold), and 10 points of cold damage are actually dealt to the night hag, who is both shocked and enraged at this unexpected turn of events.

Creatures with the cold subtype can tell that a piercing cold spell is colder than normal, but they remain undamaged by the attack.

Creatures with the fire subtype who are damaged by a piercing cold spell take double normal damage instead of the usual +50%.

A piercing cold spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

[Vhaidara]

you get that from level 4 frost mage

[WeaselGuy]

Didn't see this mentioned but I'd throw out piercing cold as a metamagic feat to qualify for energy substitution.

Piercing Cold
Frostburn, p. 49

[Metamagic]

Your cold spells are so cold that they can damage creatures normally resistant or immune to cold.
Prerequisite

Benefit

You can only apply this metamagic feat to spells with the cold descriptor. Piercing cold spells are so horribly cold that they are capable of damaging creatures normally unharmed by or resistant to cold. Piercing cold spells completely ignore any resistance to cold a creature possesses, bypassing this resistance and dealing damage to the target as if it did not possess any resistance to cold at all. They are still entitled to whatever other defenses the attack allows (such as saving throws and spell resistance).

Creatures normally immune to cold can be damaged by piercing cold spells as well. Piercing cold spells deal half damage to these creatures (or one-quarter on a successful saving throw). For example, Mialee casts a piercing cold cone of cold at a night hag, a creature normally immune to cold. She makes her level check to penetrate the night hag's spell resistance, but the night hag makes her Reflex save against the spell. Mialee rolls the dice, and her cone of cold deals 42 points of cold damage; since the night hag made her save, the damage is halved to 21 points. This damage is then halved again (since the night hag is normally immune to cold), and 10 points of cold damage are actually dealt to the night hag, who is both shocked and enraged at this unexpected turn of events.

Creatures with the cold subtype can tell that a piercing cold spell is colder than normal, but they remain undamaged by the attack.

Creatures with the fire subtype who are damaged by a piercing cold spell take double normal damage instead of the usual +50%.

A piercing cold spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

The Prestige Class the OP is going for, Frost Mage, gives that feat at level 4... it would qualify for energy sub at 9 though, freeing up an earlier feat slot...

[Ellowryn]

Archmage is a good way to finish up, assuming your willing to spend the feats to get in. Also, in regard for spells, do you want to cast cold spells, or just spells that deal cold damage? If its the latter than look up the mailman build and then grab energy substitution to make the insane flurry of wings damage cold.

[Hazrond]

Archmage is a good way to finish up, assuming your willing to spend the feats to get in. Also, in regard for spells, do you want to cast cold spells, or just spells that deal cold damage? If its the latter than look up the mailman build and then grab energy substitution to make the insane flurry of wings damage cold.

It just has to fit the theme, energy substitution is something I plan to use anyways so things using that are fine

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Druid spell list has much better cold spells than the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Chill Metal, Creeping Cold, Sleet/Ice Storm, Snowsight + Obscuring Snow, Call Avalanche, etc. are going to make an enormous impact in the very early to mid levels, whereas a Sorcerer would need to get to a moderately high level to really shine sticking to a cold theme. Even a Cleric with the Cold domain and the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 for it, plus Ice Slick, Ice Axe, and many other spells, would make a better chassis for a cold-based spellcaster. A Spirit Shaman in Complete Divine spontaneously casts from a limited spell list drawn from the Druid class list, and could be a superb substitute for Sorcerer.

Frost Mage can advance an arcane or a divine casting class, though it requires 1st level arcane spells and Knowledge: Arcana to qualify for. A (Cloistered) Cleric with the Spell domains can use Anyspell to cast arcane spells of up to 2nd level at 5th, and gets Kn: Arcana as a class skill, so this could easily be combined with the Cold domain and spontaneous domain casting. Plus you can use DMM: Persistent Ice Axe and duplicate many of the Sorcerer/Wizard cold spells via (Greater) Anyspell. Pick up a Contemplative dip for the Magic domain and you can also use wands and staffs of choice cold spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. You could also use Spirit Shaman with one of the many means of gaining Kn: Arcana as a class skill (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0) along with Magical Training in PGtF and any of the early-entry shenanigans that would spend your 0th level slots to cast a 1st level arcane spell (Sanctum Spell, Versatile Spellcaster + knowledge of a 1st level spell, Improved Sigil: Krau, etc.) to take Frost Mage with a spontaneous class that uses the Druid spell list.

[Hazrond]

The Druid spell list has much better cold spells than the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Chill Metal, Creeping Cold, Sleet/Ice Storm, Snowsight + Obscuring Snow, Call Avalanche, etc. are going to make an enormous impact in the very early to mid levels, whereas a Sorcerer would need to get to a moderately high level to really shine sticking to a cold theme. Even a Cleric with the Cold domain and the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 for it, plus Ice Slick, Ice Axe, and many other spells, would make a better chassis for a cold-based spellcaster. A Spirit Shaman in Complete Divine spontaneously casts from a limited spell list drawn from the Druid class list, and could be a superb substitute for Sorcerer.

Frost Mage can advance an arcane or a divine casting class, though it requires 1st level arcane spells and Knowledge: Arcana to qualify for. A (Cloistered) Cleric with the Spell domains can use Anyspell to cast arcane spells of up to 2nd level at 5th, and gets Kn: Arcana as a class skill, so this could easily be combined with the Cold domain and spontaneous domain casting. Plus you can use DMM: Persistent Ice Axe and duplicate many of the Sorcerer/Wizard cold spells via (Greater) Anyspell. Pick up a Contemplative dip for the Magic domain and you can also use wands and staffs of choice cold spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. You could also use Spirit Shaman with one of the many means of gaining Kn: Arcana as a class skill (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0) along with Magical Training in PGtF and any of the early-entry shenanigans that would spend your 0th level slots to cast a 1st level arcane spell (Sanctum Spell, Versatile Spellcaster + knowledge of a 1st level spell, Improved Sigil: Krau, etc.) to take Frost Mage with a spontaneous class that uses the Druid spell list.

I know that cleric and Druid can do anything, I WANT to play sorcerer though, those two are OP already and besides I wanted spontaneous casting for this build

[Hazrond]

So does anybody have suggestions for prestige classes besides Archmage?

[Shining Wrath]

+1 for Lord of the Uttercold.

Take Energy Substitution: Cold and then you can have cold fireballs and cold lightning and cold acid fogs.

[jjcrpntr]

The Prestige Class the OP is going for, Frost Mage, gives that feat at level 4... it would qualify for energy sub at 9 though, freeing up an earlier feat slot...

wow yay reading comprehension. It's ok guys I was homeschooled.

But damn that is a cool prestige class

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I know that cleric and Druid can do anything, I WANT to play sorcerer though, those two are OP already and besides I wanted spontaneous casting for this build

Spirit Shaman is on par with Sorcerer, and gets access to the spell list with the better cold spells.

Paragnostic Apostle in CC for Energy Supremacy, Backhanded Attack (Orb of Cold), and maybe a few other abilities could be beneficial to your cold focus.

[Hazrond]

Spirit Shaman is on par with Sorcerer, and gets access to the spell list with the better cold spells.

Paragnostic Apostle in CC for Energy Supremacy, Backhanded Attack (Orb of Cold), and maybe a few other abilities could be beneficial to your cold focus.

I want to play sorcerer, please stop trying to talk me out of it.

[Ellowryn]

Lol, Biff is a hardcore min/maxer so when he see's an idea for a build he goes all out.

Anyways, just remember to take utility spells too. Having nothing but cold blasting spells is fun but at the end of the day it really is sub-par. And fun. But still sub-par. I would aslo recomend switching your familiar for meta-magic specialist out of PhB II, it lets you 3+ Int mod per day reduce the casting time increase for applying meta-magic feats to spells, allowing you to do things like quicken them.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take Ancestral Relic (BoED) at 3rd level and make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224). Ideally you should make it an Elvencraft (RotW) Composite Longbow, which counts as both a quarterstaff and a longbow. You would need to get Masterwork three times, but you can also put three Wand Chambers from Dungeonscape in it. It can be enchanted as a magic bow, as a quarterstaff, and as any type of magical staff. Note that held weapons don't take an item slot so additional properties don't cost anything beyond their normal price. With three wand chambers you can put three wands in it and whenever you're holding it you can use any of those three wands as though you were holding them. The ability to make a custom runestaff with whatever spells you want on it diminishes your limited number of spells known into a very minor drawback, but if Grima Wormtongue gets his thugs to take your staff away before you walk in your potential power will be significantly diminished.

When your party would sell junk loot for half value you can buy it out of the party pool for that price, then get a portion of that back when the cash is split. Sacrifice the full value of that loot into your relic and you'll be upgrading it for less than half price. That's more efficient than using item creation feats, plus you don't even spend any xp on it. Additionally, you can completely change all of its magical properties each time you modify it, you can completely remove the previous magical properties in exchange for completely different abilities. If you switch out abilities for different ones of identical value (swap out a runestaff spell for a different one of equal level), then the time it takes to modify it is multiplied by zero so it's not even a free action, it's no action at all. You need to be in the area of a Consecrate or Hallow effect to modify it, so get Incense of Consecration in BoED for 300 gp, you can extinguish it to split up its six-hour duration into multiple shorter intervals so you can swap some of the spells you have access to on the fly.

[Hazrond]

Take Ancestral Relic (BoED) at 3rd level and make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224). Ideally you should make it an Elvencraft (RotW) Composite Longbow, which counts as both a quarterstaff and a longbow. You would need to get Masterwork three times, but you can also put three Wand Chambers from Dungeonscape in it. It can be enchanted as a magic bow, as a quarterstaff, and as any type of magical staff. Note that held weapons don't take an item slot so additional properties don't cost anything beyond their normal price. With three wand chambers you can put three wands in it and whenever you're holding it you can use any of those three wands as though you were holding them. The ability to make a custom runestaff with whatever spells you want on it diminishes your limited number of spells known into a very minor drawback, but if Grima Wormtongue gets his thugs to take your staff away before you walk in your potential power will be significantly diminished.

When your party would sell junk loot for half value you can buy it out of the party pool for that price, then get a portion of that back when the cash is split. Sacrifice the full value of that loot into your relic and you'll be upgrading it for less than half price. That's more efficient than using item creation feats, plus you don't even spend any xp on it. Additionally, you can completely change all of its magical properties each time you modify it, you can completely remove the previous magical properties in exchange for completely different abilities. If you switch out abilities for different ones of identical value (swap out a runestaff spell for a different one of equal level), then the time it takes to modify it is multiplied by zero so it's not even a free action, it's no action at all. You need to be in the area of a Consecrate or Hallow effect to modify it, so get Incense of Consecration in BoED for 300 gp, you can extinguish it to split up its six-hour duration into multiple shorter intervals so you can swap some of the spells you have access to on the fly.

I actually like this idea, alot :D

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I actually like this idea, alot :D

For those three wands, your best choices including cost-effectiveness would probably be Nerveskitter, Benign Transposition, and Wings of Cover.

I'd make the character a Silverbrow Human from Dragon Magic, so you get the dragonblood subtype along with some other benefits (Disguise is always a class skill and gets +2, Feather Fall 1/5 HD +1/day) and you only lose the Human bonus skill points. Plus you had a silver dragon ancestor, which would explain your affinity for cold magic. You can even get the Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 substitution level in Races of the Dragon to get Draconic Heritage instead of a familiar, though you would miss out on the Metamagic Specialist ACF in PH2 for taking that.

[Hazrond]

For those three wands, your best choices including cost-effectiveness would probably be Nerveskitter, Benign Transposition, and Wings of Cover.

I'd make the character a Silverbrow Human from Dragon Magic, so you get the dragonblood subtype along with some other benefits (Disguise is always a class skill and gets +2, Feather Fall 1/5 HD +1/day) and you only lose the Human bonus skill points. Plus you had a silver dragon ancestor, which would explain your affinity for cold magic. You can even get the Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 substitution level in Races of the Dragon to get Draconic Heritage instead of a familiar, though you would miss out on the Metamagic Specialist ACF in PH2 for taking that.

I would rather keep the wand spells as either in theme or as utility spells

Edit: as for silverbrow human great idea :D

[A_S]

Look into Winterhaunt of Iborighu. It will give you +3d6 damage on all your cold-based attacks, free Piercing Cold on everything with no spell level adjustment, and a whole host of excellent defensive abilities. It requires one level of divine casting, but can advance arcane casting and is 10/10 casting.

You may also want to do some refluffing if you use this class; its built-in fluff is about dedication to a specific, rather dumb evil cold deity,

[Hazrond]

Look into Winterhaunt of Iborighu. It will give you +3d6 damage on all your cold-based attacks, free Piercing Cold on everything with no spell level adjustment, and a whole host of excellent defensive abilities. It requires one level of divine casting, but can advance arcane casting and is 10/10 casting.

You may also want to do some refluffing if you use this class; its built-in fluff is about dedication to a specific, rather dumb evil cold deity,

While that is a nice PRC it is a bit, way bit, off concept for this char, plus I only have 5 free PRC levels

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I would rather keep the wand spells as either in theme or as utility spells

Edit: as for silverbrow human great idea :D

Those suggestions were mostly utility spells, except maybe Nerveskitter. You can take Spell Thematics in PGtF to give every spell you cast an appearance of cold/ice/snow. For example, Wings of Cover would appear as a protective shield of ice that forms long enough to protect you from one attack before melting away. Also note that Wings of Cover can be used to protect multiple nearby characters if you have the dragonblood subtype.

Another great wand choice would be Summon Component in CM, which can get you a handful of snow for Snowcasting if there's none nearby. Keep in mind that per Rules Compendium the activation times of spell trigger and spell completion items are the same as the casting time of the spell it casts.

[A_S]

While that is a nice PRC it is a bit, way bit, off concept for this char, plus I only have 5 free PRC levels
Yeah unless you're really into worshipping evil ice zombies, refluffing is a must for Winterhaunt. Mechanically, though, it's hard to pass up if what you're going for is an optimized cold-based blaster. It's much better than taking all 10 levels of Frost Mage, for instance (Frost Mage is terrible past level 4; it just doesn't give you anything that actually makes you better at frost magic).

Is this for an actual game? Do you know how your DM feels about class fluff mutability (changing the flavor of a class and its requirements without changing its mechanics)? I ask because I can't stress enough just how bad taking all 10 levels of Frost Mage is for your concept.

[Vhaidara]

Excuse me, but Frost Mage is perfectly fine, especially for a sorcerer. You get more spells known out of it, you get 2 more NA, and it is still full casting. I don't think any PrC with full casting can be bad.

[A_S]

Excuse me, but Frost Mage is perfectly fine, especially for a sorcerer. You get more spells known out of it, you get 2 more NA, and it is still full casting. I don't think any PrC with full casting can be bad.
From levels 5-10, Frost Mage gains:
+2 natural armor
5 spells known, 3 of which are inappropriately low-level summoning spells which are almost indistinguishable from the Summon Monster line, and one of which is on the Sorc/Wiz list anyway, leaving only Animate Snow as something I see as worthwhile.
The Cold subtype
6/6 casting advancement
I mean, your point that full casting advancement is never bad is well taken, but there are many other options that are vastly better for what the OP is trying to do:
Winterhaunt would give more natural armor, bonus damage on cold spells, Piercing Cold for free on all cold spells, a better summoning option, the Cold subtype, and a boatload of immunities from the Elemental type a few levels later.
Incantatrix would help offset the spell level costs of having to apply Piercing Cold to everything.
Archmage would give goodies like messing with spell AoE's to protect allies, caster level increases, SLA-conversions for frequently-cast spells, etc.
Even the reroll goodies from four levels of Fatespinner are, to my mind, better than the bonuses from Frost Mage.
Dweomerkeeper lets you spontaneously convert spells into (say) your favorite frost blast, lets you ignore components (on, say, Fimbulwinter), and again helps with metamagic costs of Piercing Cold.
I mean, there's worse things in life than full casting. For that matter, straight Sorcerer can get the job done. But, the last 6 levels of Frost Mage don't make you a better cryomancer compared to other options.

[Vhaidara]

I'm not claiming it is the best, but it is better than more sorcerer. Other PrC might suck up more feats for Prereqs.

Incantatrix has a nasty reputation that most tables that have heard of it don't want to deal with it. Dweomerkeeper not as much, but same boat

Archmage can still be finished with 10 levels of Frost Mage, as could Fatespinner :P

Winterhaunt has all those annoying prereqs, and actually costs you a caster level since you need to get your divine casting.

[Hazrond]

I'm not claiming it is the best, but it is better than more sorcerer. Other PrC might suck up more feats for Prereqs.

Incantatrix has a nasty reputation that most tables that have heard of it don't want to deal with it. Dweomerkeeper not as much, but same boat

Archmage can still be finished with 10 levels of Frost Mage, as could Fatespinner :P

Winterhaunt has all those annoying prereqs, and actually costs you a caster level since you need to get your divine casting.

There's also the fact the DM I play with is strict, don't think he would allow me to refluff it :/

[A_S]

I'm not claiming it is the best, but it is better than more sorcerer.
Okay, yeah, this is indisputably true :P .

Let me take a less extreme position: Frost Mage is not terrible. The class features from the last six levels of Frost Mage are extremely underwhelming compared to both the first four, and to other options that exist. I'm basically just mad that most of Frost Mage doesn't actually make you a better frost mage (a problem it shares with Elemental Savant).

[Vhaidara]

Again, it does (free spells are never something for Sorc to turn his nose up at, even if they are sub par), there are just better.

Seriously, if I were doing a rebalance of 3.5, full casting PrC wouldn't exist. At best you would get 8/10.

[Hazrond]

Okay, yeah, this is indisputably true :P .

Let me take a less extreme position: Frost Mage is not terrible. The class features from the last six levels of Frost Mage are extremely underwhelming compared to both the first four, and to other options that exist. I'm basically just mad that most of Frost Mage doesn't actually make you a better frost mage (a problem it shares with Elemental Savant).

I know i want to at least get to Frost Mage level 7 for Animate Snow because i admittedly began this build with a picture of Elsa in my head :smallredface:, im gonna play it but as an actual character still though, i at least want level 7 for Animate Snow since its a druid spell and unlearnable under normal circumstances

Edit: is the extra 3 levels in something else really worth it? or should i just grab cold subtype by going full 10 Frost Mage?

[Vhaidara]

Honestly, the cold subtype can be a blessing and a curse
+ You're immune to cold
- You have fire vulnerability

Is it optimal to finish it? Not at all.

Is it bad is you do? Not really.

Also, if you want to make Elsa, definitely look at the spell list I posted earlier. I made that character the night I saw Frozen for the first time, and it covers almost everything Elsa can do (did you know there's a spell called Ice Castle? I didn't know there was a spell called Ice Castle)

[Hazrond]

Honestly, the cold subtype can be a blessing and a curse
+ You're immune to cold
- You have fire vulnerability

Is it optimal to finish it? Not at all.

Is it bad is you do? Not really.

Also, if you want to make Elsa, definitely look at the spell list I posted earlier. I made that character the night I saw Frozen for the first time, and it covers almost everything Elsa can do (did you know there's a spell called Ice Castle? I didn't know there was a spell called Ice Castle)

I did know ice castle was a thing :D and as for the whole Elsa thing, it was only what I started with, I'm starting to really like the build that's coming together and I'm not trying to copy her really, more like I used the base idea

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I know i want to at least get to Frost Mage level 7 for Animate Snow because i admittedly began this build with a picture of Elsa in my head :smallredface:, im gonna play it but as an actual character still though, i at least want level 7 for Animate Snow since its a druid spell and unlearnable under normal circumstances

Edit: is the extra 3 levels in something else really worth it? or should i just grab cold subtype by going full 10 Frost Mage?

The 10th level ability from Frost Mage is just as much a drawback as it is beneficial, especially considering fire is the most common energy type in the game.

You can go something like Sorcerer 5/ Frost Mage 7/ Mage of the Arcane Order 7 or 8, qualifying by spending a feat on Arcane Preparation, which also allows you to cast sanctified spells such as (Greater) Luminous Armor if you're good-aligned. That would add significant versatility beyond what an Ancestral Relic Runestaff gives you, although I would still keep that as well.

[Hazrond]

The 10th level ability from Frost Mage is just as much a drawback as it is beneficial, especially considering fire is the most common energy type in the game.

its is also the easiest to become immune to :smallamused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

its is also the easiest to become immune to :smallamused:

Sandstorm has Searing Spell, so don't count on casting Energy Immunity: Fire every day to work every time.

[Hazrond]

Sandstorm has Searing Spell, so don't count on casting Energy Immunity: Fire every day to work every time.

Yes but thats only for spellcasters, if im fighting a lvl 15 (the min level to get this) spellcaster i have bigger things to worry about than fire damage :smalltongue:

[Hazrond]

Hey i had an idea? Practiced Spellcaster boosts your caster level by 4 right? so what if i took levels of Wild Mage and the Practiced Spellcaster feat, it would mean that all im rolling for is a CL boost right? Practiced Spellcaster would remove the penalty from wild mage and i would still be rolling 1d6 for caster levels am i correct?

[Vhaidara]

No, the wild mage is applied after Practiced.

Yes, I tried to do that.

But I do encourage taking Wild Mage. Best PrC ever.

[Hazrond]

No, the wild mage is applied after Practiced.

Yes, I tried to do that.

But I do encourage taking Wild Mage. Best PrC ever.

and here i hoped i had found a fun workaround to toy with. :smallfrown:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hey i had an idea? Practiced Spellcaster boosts your caster level by 4 right? so what if i took levels of Wild Mage and the Practiced Spellcaster feat, it would mean that all im rolling for is a CL boost right? Practiced Spellcaster would remove the penalty from wild mage and i would still be rolling 1d6 for caster levels am i correct?

Wild Magic is a single ability, so its -3 and +1d6 is part of a single effect that has to be applied all at once. You can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order, but you cannot split up the bonuses and penalties of a single effect to apply them separately.

You can apply Practiced Spellcaster before Wild Magic, get +4 up to your character level and then -3 and +1d6.
You can apply Practiced Spellcaster after Wild Magic, take the -3 and +1d6, and then add +4 to bring it back up to your character level if you got a low roll.
You cannot apply the -3 for Wild Magic, apply Practiced Spellcaster to get +4 up to your character level, and then apply the +1d6 for Wild Magic.

[Hazrond]

You can apply Practiced Spellcaster after Wild Magic, take the -3 and +1d6, and then add +4 to bring it back up to your character level if you got a low roll.

Isn't that what i said? I would be rolling for boost because if i got above 3 then it would still give me the boost am i wrong? and if i rolled below 3 it would get Practiced Spellcaster'd :smallconfused:

[Hazrond]

Btw i am thinking that if i go Archmage instead of Wild Mage i might use one of the High Arcanas to get Ice Castle as a spell like ability :smallbiggrin:

[Vhaidara]

Oh, I misunderstood it as what I originally thought, which would be CL -3 (Wild Magic) + 4 (PS)+ 1d6 Wild Magic, for potentially +6 CL

What happens is CL -4 (WM) +1d6 (WM), then, if New CL<Original CL, +4 (PS), capping at Original CL.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Isn't that what i said? I would be rolling for boost because if i got above 3 then it would still give me the boost am i wrong? and if i rolled below 3 it would get Practiced Spellcaster'd :smallconfused:


...Practiced Spellcaster would remove the penalty from wild mage and i would still be rolling 1d6 for caster levels am i correct?

It looked like you were proposing that you could apply the -3, then Practiced Spellcaster, and then be rolling the +1d6 on top of that.

You can indeed apply the -3, then +1d6, and then Practiced Spellcaster would negate any drawback if you rolled a 1 or 2.

[Vortenger]

Honestly, the cold subtype can be a blessing and a curse
+ You're immune to cold and can (ab)use Algid Enhancement without (many )shenanigans.
- You have fire vulnerability

fixed that for ya.

[Hazrond]

fixed that for ya.

Just looked that spell up, will be very useful if i can convince the cleric to prepare it :smallbiggrin: