Help With a Speed Based TWF Kensai Magus

[Shou]

After playing a Big Weapon Paladin for a few levels in a campaign full of nothing but devils, my GM has dropped the ban hammer on my Paladin, so I'm trying to find a good build TWF Scimtar/Wakizashi Kensai that exploits the quickdraw feat and would preferably use weapon finesse.

1)I want to go dex based and would rather buff/debuff and attack many times rather than deal massive nova style damage. I'd prefer to be extremely mobile. I'm not really sure what feats to take beyond TWF, Quick Draw, and Weapon Finesse

2)High AC is a must, my party is really squishy.
The party has a Oracle3/Rogue3, Wizard6, Sorceror6, Witch6, Alchemist6, Cavalier6, Swashbuckler6.
Currently only the Cavalier and Rogue/Oracle ever take part in melee, and we use familiars as heal bots.

3)I have to play a Lawful Good Half-Elf, due to my last character not dying.

4)Stat roll: 18,17,14,13,12,8
Starting Level is 6.

5) I've got 7.5k to blow on stuff. I figure my best bet is to get a headband of vast intelligence and some decent magic armor w/ two masterwork weapons but not sure... My gm is allowing me to take a headband of vast intelligence but not a belt of dex.

I'm currently having to deal with a GM that hates healing with a passion. The campaign has a lot of plants constructs and devils as enemies.

[Genth]

How would a TWF magus work? Don't you need a hand free in order to cast spells?

[Shou]

How would a TWF magus work? Don't you need a hand free in order to cast spells?

The feat Quick Draw states that you can draw a weapon with a free action, however, it doesn't say anything about sheathing the weapon, but it makes since that drawing and sheathing a weapon should take around the same time so in my group we use Quick Draw to count for both drawing and sheathing as a free action.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-draw-combat---final

Essentially its sheath, cast, draw, attack.

[NightbringerGGZ]

So I would highly recommend against a TWF build. You need one hand free to use Spell Combat, as you're basically TWF with a weapon and spell casting. If you want to just buff up and then wade in with two weapons, it'll work with your stats, but you won't be using the Magus to it's full potential.

I'm going to suggest the basic Dervish Dance build and map it out for you, since you've requested a Dex build. Note, with your stats you could have a very effective Str build, but that's up to you. You may also want to pair up the Bladebound archetype with Kensai. It's a highly effective combination, and would net you a free +2 weapon at your level. Here's my build suggestion:

- Racial attribute bonus goes to Dex. Level 4 bonus goes to Int.

Str: 13
Dex: 20
Con: 14
Int: 20 - Start at 17, +1 at level 4, +2 from headband
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

Alternate Racial Traits: Arcane Training (Magus)
Traits: Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp), Reckless

Favored Class bonus: Extra Arcana or Extra Arcane Pool

Feats and Arcana:
1 - Weapon Focus: Scimitar, Weapon Proff: Scimitar, Weapon Finesse
3 - Dervish Dance, Familiar
5 - Power Attack, Intensified Spell
6 - Spell Blending (Mage Armor, Touch of Gracelessness)

With your Headband on and your weapon drawn, you have an AC of 20. Cast Mage Armor at the start of your adventuring day, and that's now 24. Prep Intensified Shocking Grasps as your burst damage spells. I'd probably use your level 2 spell slots for buffs. Enhance your weapon at the start of combat with +1 Keen and you now have a +10 attack roll with 1d6+11 15-20 x2 damage when Power Attacking.

You get to toss in another Familiar, which should be amusing as well.

[grarrrg]

The feat Quick Draw states that you can draw a weapon with a free action, however, it doesn't say anything about sheathing the weapon, but it makes since that drawing and sheathing a weapon should take around the same time

Quickly grabbing something, and quickly putting something away are two different things.
Consider a Sword.
To draw it you grab and pull. Done.
To sheath it properly, you need to take a second or two to line it up, otherwise you'll at best miss, and at worst hurt yourself.

[Iwasforger03]

I have a different question: Why the hell is the paladin getting banned in a campaign with a party like THAT. Unless all of them are seriously underoptimized (i mean, built WRONG, not just mediocre, but WRONG) the paladin should NOT outshine the ENTIRE REST OF YOUR PARTY to the point that it deserves to be banned, even against largley evil outsiders. YES, you get some nice boosts there, but only once or twice a day at BEST against TWO opponents. I find it horrifying that your GM is punishing you for making a smart decision and being effective.

[Kudaku]

The feat Quick Draw states that you can draw a weapon with a free action, however, it doesn't say anything about sheathing the weapon, but it makes since that drawing and sheathing a weapon should take around the same time so in my group we use Quick Draw to count for both drawing and sheathing as a free action.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-draw-combat---final

Essentially its sheath, cast, draw, attack.

RAW, this doesn't work. Spell Combat is a full round action, meaning you need to have one hand free for the full duration of the action - both when you cast the spell and when you make the attacks.

RAI it is heavily indicated both by FAQs, Spell Combat language and developer commentary that Spell Combat is not meant to work with either TWF or THF.

[The Oni]

I'd just like to point out that your GM is a douchehorse and lacks creativity, and you shouldn't cater to him by making this build unless you actually want to make this build. If he's gonna banhammer the character he should at least let you make a new character, not just "suddenly your character isn't a paladin because I can't deal with a mechanic intrinsically built into the core rules." If you don't call him on this he won't learn.

[Shou]

Quickly grabbing something, and quickly putting something away are two different things.
Consider a Sword.
To draw it you grab and pull. Done.
To sheath it properly, you need to take a second or two to line it up, otherwise you'll at best miss, and at worst hurt yourself. That makes since, but I'm not entirely sure on how my gm plans to handle quick draw, so I figured it would be cool to be able to frostbite two enemies per round or something like that.


I have a different question: Why the hell is the paladin getting banned in a campaign with a party like THAT. Unless all of them are seriously underoptimized (i mean, built WRONG, not just mediocre, but WRONG) the paladin should NOT outshine the ENTIRE REST OF YOUR PARTY to the point that it deserves to be banned, even against largley evil outsiders. YES, you get some nice boosts there, but only once or twice a day at BEST against TWO opponents. I find it horrifying that your GM is punishing you for making a smart decision and being effective.
I find no justification for banning the paladin as a class either, as it is only an average class at best, but, due to the style of encounter my GM favors, my Paladin was outshining the rest of the party by a good margin. My GM is fond of throwing 1-2 CR 10-12 enemies at us per encounter right now, so a single smite on can make some encounters rediculously easy. At lv 4 we had an encounter where the party was split me versus one bearded devil and the other six versus another, I finished mine in two blows and used lay hands to heal to full, the wizard was rendered unconcious and both the witch and cavalier were bloodied.

The witch was undoubtedly built wrong by a new player, the wizard is 90% support right now, but as far as I can tell is using treatmonks guide, the sorcerer is a very powerful fire based draconic bloodline, but cant touch the devils or constructs because of the stupid immunities, and the gm like to laugh at our alchemist when he misses and blows up the cavalier. The GM uses golems with magic immunity and devils with fire immunity rendering the mages pretty worthless in most encounters. It's cheap I know.


I'd just like to point out that your GM is a douchehorse and lacks creativity, and you shouldn't cater to him by making this build unless you actually want to make this build. If he's gonna banhammer the character he should at least let you make a new character, not just "suddenly your character isn't a paladin because I can't deal with a mechanic intrinsically built into the core rules." If you don't call him on this he won't learn.
I've tried a few times, the balance was thrown off and in every combat I killed everything pretty much solo in a 7 person party. The ban was from a bunch of complaining by the other melee characters and swashbuckler, and our current campaign arch is based largely in my characters backstory, I don't mind the change either as I'm not fond of being the meatshield.

RAW, this doesn't work. Spell Combat is a full round action, meaning you need to have one hand free for the full duration of the action - both when you cast the spell and when you make the attacks.

RAI it is heavily indicated both by FAQs, Spell Combat language and developer commentary that Spell Combat is not meant to work with either TWF or THF.

Thank's for the clarification, I never actually checked the FAQ.

[Kudaku]

Thank's for the clarification, I never actually checked the FAQ.

No worries, and sorry for stomping on your dreams. :smallfrown:

Have you taken a look at the magus guides yet? Walter's Guide to the magus (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mecg?UM-Walters-Guide-to-the-Magus) is not quite as up to date as it once was, but is still a really good starting point.

[The Oni]

This quote tells you everything you need to know:


The GM uses golems with magic immunity and devils with fire immunity rendering the mages pretty worthless in most encounters. It's cheap I know.

I'm allowed to optimize against you, but you're not allowed to optimize against me. No gaming > bad gaming. Kick this bad habit.

[Iwasforger03]

Get with the other players and get it through the GM's head, that's not cool. That's not okay. You guys should get a new GM. If he's a friend, he owes ya'll as a friend to stop this stuff, (apologies for forgetting not to curse). If he is NOT a friend, leave him out. Tell him suck it, he's a word best left unsaid (apologies for curses again), and get a new game. Have somebody else take over as GM of the same game or start a new one. That's the sign of a TERRIBLE GM. Any sign of the party being effective is nerfed, the wizard is useless, and the lachemist isn't being allowed to do anything either. NO. NOT ACCEPTABLE. That is an insult to GMs everywhere.

[Shou]

No worries, and sorry for stomping on your dreams. :smallfrown:

Have you taken a look at the magus guides yet? Walter's Guide to the magus (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mecg?UM-Walters-Guide-to-the-Magus) is not quite as up to date as it once was, but is still a really good starting point.

I took a look at it, but it feels as if I'm losing something if I go with one of the builds in that guide. Magus has some incredible buffs and debuffs that I think would help my party better than just maxing out damage. What's your opinion on frostbite + enforcer? It seems like its a good way to hinder many enemies.


This quote tells you everything you need to know:



I'm allowed to optimize against you, but you're not allowed to optimize against me. No gaming > bad gaming. Kick this bad habit.

Get with the other players and get it through the GM's head, that's not cool. That's not okay. You guys should get a new GM. If he's a friend, he owes ya'll as a friend to stop this stuff, (apologies for forgetting not to curse). If he is NOT a friend, leave him out. Tell him suck it, he's a word best left unsaid (apologies for curses again), and get a new game. Have somebody else take over as GM of the same game or start a new one. That's the sign of a TERRIBLE GM. Any sign of the party being effective is nerfed, the wizard is useless, and the lachemist isn't being allowed to do anything either. NO. NOT ACCEPTABLE. That is an insult to GMs everywhere.
We have talked it over and are planning to talk to him about his encounters, we don't really want to remove him though as his storytelling skills are amazing.

[Kudaku]

Generally speaking magus isn't the best debuffer since he normally has to split his ability scores between physical and mental stats. When you debuff you really, really want to pump your save DC in order to maximize the chance that the enemy is affected by your debuffs, which usually means maxing out your spellcasting stat.

That said, you can use debuff spells that simply don't allow saves (such as frostbite), but those are generally a little bit underwhelming.

Frostbite + Enforcer is interesting, but I'm not entirely sure if a Frostbite Spellstrike would qualify for Enforcer. You could argue that the nonlethal damage is coming from the spell rather than the melee weapon, and with the way your GM is coming across I'm not confident he'd come down on your side of the argument.

[Iwasforger03]

If you feel like it, let us know how it goes. Hopefully despite all our advice on the Magus, you'll get the paladin back (you should be allowed, he never should have banned it). If not, I hope the others were helpful on Magus.

And Kudaku is right, Debuff is not a thing Magus is good at unless you focus Int, but that can leave dex or whatever physical is used for combat high and dry.

Can you witch replace his witch with the Orc Witch Doctor? Could fix both most fears about dying from dmg AND help him with casting, etc. (you can use Half Orc or Human with the racial Heritage Orc feat to get the Archetype)

[Psyren]

The only practical way to make a TWF Magus is the Spellblade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/spellblade) archetype. The good news is that (a) this is compatible with Kensai and (b) Spellblade, like Soulknife, is cheaper than most TWF builds.

The bad news is that you lose Spellstrike, which blows because Spellstrike is awesome.

[Regissoma]

I would suggest using a double weapon instead. You can TWF with both ends, two hand with one end, and when you need to spellcast you can hold it in one hand.

[Iwasforger03]

I would suggest using a double weapon instead. You can TWF with both ends, two hand with one end, and when you need to spellcast you can hold it in one hand.

Good suggestion.

Also Psyren has a point, and while spellstrike loss sucks, if you weren't planning to use it anyways, spell blade is for you then.

[Shou]

Spell strike is really the only thing that I can see keeping my character on a similar level to the groups wizard, sorcerer, and alchemist at high levels.

I hadn't considered using a double weapon. That seems... feasable to say the least. One keen boost applies to both attacks, but how would it work with spell strike, and is there any finesseable double weapon? None come to mind.

[torrasque666]

You wouldn't be able to use spellstrike and TWF at the same time, but given that PF specifically states that changing grip(such as to cast a spell) is a free action, It would actually work kinda ok.

[Serafina]

TWF-Magus only works when you have three (or more) arms.
There are basically two ways to do it (other than custom multi-armed races):

Play a Hexcrafter Magus with the Prehensile Hair (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes/common-hexes/hex-prehensile-hair-su) Hex. Your hair is "as dextrous as a human hand", just not able to wield weapons, so it should be capable of performing somatic spell components.
It does have the advantage of being native to your class (no need for multiclassing) and giving you 10-feet reach (good for attacks of opportunity and delivering touch spells), but it has the slight disadvantage of limited duration (1 minute/day per level).

The other way to do it is a two-level dip into Alchemist and pick up the Vestigial Arm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex) Discovery.


So it can be done, but you have to ask yourself the question Why you would do it.
You can already gain an extra weapon attack due to spellstrike. Spell combat gives you -2 to attacks, stacking TWF-penalties on top of that can lead to lots of missing. The Magus gains no static bonus damage (such as sneak attack, weapon training or favored enemy) which is the main reason to go for TWF. And TWF is feat intensive while the Magus gains no bonus feats.

However, there are two archetypes that can make wielding two weapons advantageous.
The first is the Bladed Scarf Dancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/kapenia-dancer) - it gives Canny Defense and opens up some nice arcana, but you are stuck with a low crit-range weapon if you take it and is overall not all that great.
The second is Staff Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/staff-magus) which basically gives you a shield bonus for wielding magic quarterstaves and makes using magic staves as a magus viable.
Sadly, neither is compatible with Kensai or each other

The reason to go for two-weapon fighting with both archetypes is so that you are not stuck with a crappy low-crit weapon while still gaining the advantage of wielding the weapon the archetype favors. So you really mostly attack with a scimitar (or other such weapon) while using the other weapon for defense.

Honestly, neither is all that optimal and Bladed Scarf TWF is just crap compared to Kensai, but Quarterstaff Master with a sword in the main hand basically gives you the fighting style of Gandalf and isn't all that bad.

[grarrrg]

is there any finesseable double weapon? None come to mind.

Nope.
All the Double-weapons seem to be Exotic AND Two-Handed.
Except the Quarter Staff, which is Simple and Two-Handed.
Did some more digging: The Taiaha (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/stone-age-weapons) is a Stone Age Exotic 1-hand Double weapon. Not finessable, but the 1-hand/2-hand option works.

There is the Quarterstaff Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quarterstaff-master-combat) feat which lets you use it in one hand. Still not Finessable though.
And you either need 5 Bab, or the Staff Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/staff-magus) archetype.

[Sayt]

Dreamscarred Press' Path of War has the feat Double Weapon Finesse, which lets you treat each head of a double weapon as a light weapon for TWF and Weapon Finesse.

[Psyren]

I would suggest using a double weapon instead. You can TWF with both ends, two hand with one end, and when you need to spellcast you can hold it in one hand.

While this works normally, it will not work with spell combat (you explicitly must use a light or one-handed weapon), and SC is the main reason to be a magus. Otherwise you may as well just be an Eldritch Knight.