Making a Synth Summoner, Looking for some build advice.

[Legendairy]

We are starting the Rise of the Runelords AP in a few days, our party consists of 3 people right now, a Cleric of Desna, Evoker Spec Wizard and my character. I am a huge fan of Venom/Carnage/Toxin from Marvel and have been wanting to build a character like this for some time, just haven't had the chance. So my premise is I want a build that kind of reflects that. I am going Half-Elf I have read all the guides my google fu could come up with and the amount of options and the easy to mess up a feat seems slightly daunting (for me at least). So I come to the playground asking advice, Not looking for a manufacture weapon wielding typhoon of death but a fairly powerful natural weapon attacking savage type beast, again like Carnage/Venom/Toxin. Yes I can take Extra Evolution. So time for the bullets.

1. Doesn't have to be an exact Marvel copy just semi close and good to excellent in combat
2. Dunno if im looking for pure DPR but high DPR is preferable
3. No monster feats
4. Pathfinder only no 3pp
5. Half-Elf preferred
6. Not a TO build but an actual start at level 1-15ish that can carry its own throughout
7. My rolls, yes rolls are extremely min/maxy 18-14-14-12-7-7
8. For the Eidolon I am completely at a loss I like the thought of a pouncer and it would fit well but not being able to cast while "synthesized" seems scary
9. I like the dimensional feat line but for only being able to do it 3-5 times a day seems like A LOT of investment.
EDIT=Multiple limbs and claws are perfectly fine, we have a fluff solution for the look.

Well play-grounders my many many thanks a head of time, any and all help is greatly appreciated. Have fun and show me some nasty builds for both the Summoner and his Eidolon!

[Snowbluff]

Multiple claws are probably the way to do. Tentacles might fit better, but they are secondary IIRC.

[JusticeZero]

You might also take a look at the Aegis (Aberrant) in the psionics stuff. Not a manifesting class, but uses Summoner type rules to turn into a tentacle-covered horror bristling with natural weapons.

[Legendairy]

Yeah doing the multiple claws thing, just refluffed to look like bladed or spiked tentacles or make it look like the character has amazingly fast attacks (all the bought claws just attack from the same main two claws). Just not sure how I should build it, probably a qaud pouncer and buy arms. The Summoner is being played with a version of of degenerative bone disease, he cant take two move actions without making a save or taking non-lethal damage, also whenever he is hit without his Eidolon he takes extra non-lethal damage and he has to use a cane.

[Legendairy]

No psionics stuff is allowed, we just kinda switched from 3.5 and haven't read anything about psionics, aren't they 3rd party or some such now?

EDIT= What would a high damage good defense natural weapon Eidolon look like? What evo's and what feats on the summoners end. I have a few but I do not want to mess it up.

[grarrrg]

Yes I can take Extra Evolution. So time for the bullets.
5. Half-Elf preferred

Since Half-Elf is allowed, I'd say you should be fine without needing Extra Evolution.


2. Dunno if im looking for pure DPR but high DPR is preferable
It's a Synthesist, you'd be crazy NOT to make a Beatstick-of-Doom.


7. My rolls, yes rolls are extremely min/maxy 18-14-14-12-7-7
Here's where the wicket gets sticky.
First problem: 18 CHA or 14 CHA (16 with Half-Elf)? As a Synthesist Casting isn't as important, so you'd be perfectly fine with a lower CHA.
If you do that do you then put the 18 in WIS for the Save? or INT for the Skill points?

There is also the consideration of CON. It will be replaced while in Eidolon form, but you still want your normal CON high enough in case of emergency.
12 CON min, possibly putting a 14 there.

This likely leaves STR and DEX as your 7's, unless you are comfortable taking a hit to Will Save, or Skills.


8. For the Eidolon I am completely at a loss I like the thought of a pouncer and it would fit well but not being able to cast while "synthesized" seems scary
EDIT=Multiple limbs and claws are perfectly fine, we have a fluff solution for the look.

You can still Talk with the Eidolon-suit so the only casting concern is Arms. Throwing a pair of Arms onto a Quad should not cause much for problems, and will give you extra places to put Claws if you so choose.

[Snowbluff]

You grab the bonus to Strength, Arms, and Claws Evolutions. Add on energy damage. Quadrupeds may take pounce. Grab the size bonuses ASAP.

You may also increase your natural armor with EP, and add ALL of your armor bonus from levels to Natural Armor. This will let it stack with the Mage Armor spell.

For feats, probably power attack and arcane strike. Improved Natural Attacks are good, too.

[JusticeZero]

They're done by Dreamscarred Press, which is considered 1st party by a lot of tables because they've got a reputation for doing a better and more careful job of balancing than Paizo does. After reviewing their stuff and checking the various balance issues, I banned Paizo's spellcasting classes from my table as being unbalanced and broken.
Plus, it takes like, 5-10 minutes to learn how Psionics works, and more importantly... it doesn't matter in this case because the Aegis uses psionic abilities on the exact same casting progression that a Barbarian uses for spellcasting. That is, "They don't".

[grarrrg]

the Aegis uses psionic abilities on the exact same casting progression that a Barbarian uses for spellcasting.

DANG IT! Now I have to link "the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?195049-Help-Me-Be-Annoying-with-a-Barbarian-Wizard)"

[Legendairy]

Yeah Psionics is banned either way, not my call. Okay so taking a pouncer at first level. 3 evos towards what? arms then claws? all three gone or should I take Extra Evolution and get Arms, Claws reach on the bite? or something similiar to that.

I think the 18 will stay with cha, I also get to be party face when not merged into the maniacal "beatstick of doom".

I have no experience with Synth Summoners. I want to get large asap then huge even sooner reach seems like a big boon as well as full attack moves. but its the early levels to say 5 or 10 that I am trying to see how to get insane damage with good defenses, I have seen builds on other boards that look awesome but I cant see the placement of the Evo's/Feats. I also think Synths can be gimped really easy and I definitely do not want that.

EDIT- Also the Cha is good for UMD but may be overkill at a certain point.

DOUBLE EDIT- I understand exactly what you are saying JusticeZero, basically if it's not in the Ultimates, APG, ARG, Core and most the pfsrd. Not my call, thank you for your advice I don't want you to think I'm blowing you off.

[JusticeZero]

That's fine, i'm just saying - half your party is classes that i've banned from my table, and I allow anything DSP prints. In any case, your power level is going to be substantially higher than if you'd gone with the Aegis, though a bit lower than a standard Summoner.
Anyways, just me being annoyed at people banning Psionics. in this case with "I'm not familiar with it", since it took me longer to figure out how Wildshape works than it did to figure out the entire Psionics system, and I am still hazy on Wildshape stuff. =) This is in part because I end up getting asked to play the "healer" a lot, and I flat out refuse to play any of the primary divine casters offered for fear of causing another game to self destruct.

[Legendairy]

I completely understand, it's almost comparable to the knee jerk ToB ban on 3.5 although the initiator levels and maneuvers seemed rough it wasn't any worse than a core caster. But thems the rules and I have DMed for way to looong so when I get a chance to play, he can house rule the moon into the sun for all I care.

Back to the eidolon and summoner I keep thinking about the cha and I think a 16 would be better after all and the 18 probably to int for skills.

Other than that would anyone be willing to do a level by level build for traits, feats, where to spend evolution points to make this beast come alive?

Again thank you all for the replies and the hasty replies at that. My brain shuts down at times and for whatever reason if I don't see it by the numbers (too much military or too much brain damage or a healthy dose of both) I can't grasp where the ability scores and stats come from.

[Legendairy]

Here is an Example of what I am talking about, this one is from the Paizo boards, now don't get me wrong I am not saying it isn't legit or anything I am saying me personally I can not figure out where some of the stats are. The dex seems rather high for a large biped eidolon, again I may be very wrong and the build looks great and I am not criticizing the build or builder in any way, I just can not figure it out, posted in spoilers.

Half-elf Synthasist (half elf) 10

Str: 7 (31)
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Dex: 7 (20)
Con: 14 (20)
Chr: 21 (23)
Circlet of Persuasion
Amulet of Mighty Fist +1
+2 Headband (Cha)
+2 Belt of physical perfection
2 Wands of lesser extend
Cracked ioun stones (+1 Init, +1 saves)
1 wand of lesser widen (for black tentacles)
All class points put towards evolutions (so he has 2 extra now)
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes Power Attack
Evolution: Large, Bite (improved), Claws, Electric Attack, Trip (Bite), Wings, Improved Natural Armor (3)

AC (extended Mage armor assumed): 10 + 4 (Mage armor) +2 (Eidilon Shiled) + 18 (natural) + 5 (dex) = 39
HP: (8+ 45 + 27) = 80 without Eidilon. With Eidilon con goes up by 4, so 98, then you get the Eidilon's hps as temp 8 * 5.5 + 5 * 5.5, and you get 20 extra hp for his higher con. So 100 + 71 temp.

Attacks: +8 BAB + 10 Str + 1 magic -1 size = +18
Damage: bite: 3d6 + 16 + trip (CMB: +23, 8 BAB, 4 Feats, 10 Str, 1 Size)
Claws: d8 + d6 +10 * 4
Can be -2 / +4 on all attacks, if desired.

Tactics; when closing he typically goes in @ 15 feat and tried to bite (15 foot reach), and knock them over. When people close he uses his 6 AOOs with his bite to attempt to get them down on the ground, then moves up with his 10 foot reach claws and tears them apart. If there is a dangerous group, he creates a 40 foot black tentacles vs caster types or drops slow on melee types. if he can buff he tosses on an extended enlarge person so he can be even more silly.

1) Mage armor, grease, enlarge person, random utility
2) Lesser Surge, Summon Eidilon, Slow, haste, wind wall
3) Black tentacles, surge, Summon monster IV, D Door
4) Greater Evolution Surge, Teleport

[grarrrg]

I am not saying it isn't legit or anything I am saying me personally I can not figure out where some of the stats are.
Agreed. I'm having trouble figuring out what the heck base form he has myself.
He lists Bite having a Reach of 15ft, and everything else being 10ft. But Large Evolution only grants reach to Bipeds, and only Serpentine has Reach as a Base evolution and he doesn't list either Bite or Reach as purchased.
I suppose he may Enlarge Person all the time, that would get 10ft. reach regardless, but the tactics mention Enlarge Person last.
He's either Biped with unlisted Evo's spent on Bite and Bite (Reach) (which puts him over on his total evo's), or he can't read the bit on Large that says only Biped's get +Reach.

Let's check the stats:
All together there's +15 to STR (+4 levels, +8 Large, +2 Belt, +1 ability increase) and +4 to DEX (+4 levels, -2 Large, +2 Belt).
Which means...nothing. He apparently has base 16 in both STR and DEX... Unless it's actually a +4 Belt, then it would make sense for a Quad.
CON checks out fine (for a +2 Belt).

There are a few other inconsistencies as well: I have no clue how his HP works, Bite damage is too high, etc...
Conclusion: Either this guy is working off the Beta-Summoner, or he has a loose grasp on rules/reading (and he can't be bothered to spell check...).



Anywho...back to topic.
First major choice is Quad or Biped.
Biped has better STR and gets Reach when Large. Quad gets Pounce.
Next, Natural Attack monster? Or Weapon user? Natural attack monsters are easier to build, so we'll go with that for now.

1st level:
If Biped go with Bite, Imp. Natural Armor, and either a damage bump to the Claws, or something utility like Skilled.
If Quad, grab Claws, Pounce, and then either Natural Armor, Damage bump, or utility.

[Legendairy]

I believe it was a biped in the other build and it very well may have been the beta.

Here is the dregs, I like reach A LOT and its useful for sitting near the casters and getting AoO but I think pounce is generally better and I may be wrong just my experience that move and full attack means getting around and dealing more damage.

EDIT- I am trying to synergize (yes it's a word!) with the group, the wizard is a evoker per the block wizard build with high init, so he may hurt things before they get close and Reach/str may be better but meeting them after the blast via pounce just may shred them before they ever get to casters. They being the proverbial baddies.

[Legendairy]

Ok this game has been postponed for a bit longer. With that does anyone know a good natural attack eidolon build that shreds it up a lot in melee? And which feats to take as the summoner. Not just at first level but as high as possible? Or could anyone direct me to some of them, most I find are biped slammers it seems. Any help is appriciated, thanks everyone in advance.

[Sagitta]

If you rolled two sevens, I'm not surprised you want to play a synth.


With that does anyone know a good natural attack eidolon build that shreds it up a lot in melee? And which feats to take as the summoner. Not just at first level but as high as possible?

Saph wrote a very useful guide to summoners (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?184592-3-P-The-Summoner-s-Handbook-A-Guide-to-the-Pathfinder-Summoner). It only goes as far as the APG (which introduced the Summoner). In particular, it doesn't cover UM.
And a couple of general summoning links courtesy of Novawurmson's compendium:
-Why work when others can do it for you - a guide to Summoning (="https://docs.google.com/document/d/16dZ5SBQMS1Yi6531tXOkKE_rmXEwn4VFacOEQKiHA5E/edit?pli=1#" target="_blank" rel="nofollow)
-Spells from Summoned Monsters (="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXTPH3JxSDD6n0a0dS8eywpQ3we09d_ToBWaL1yphBk/edit" target="_blank" rel="nofollow)

Just as a theoretical exercise, here is an idea for a pounce-based eidolon. Any arithmetic and other errors below are entirely mine. I've never played a summoner myself, so the suggestions below should be taken as the ravings of a mad fool with a pinch of salt.

This build focuses almost all-out on maximizing the number of natural attacks and their damage. In practice it would be better to divert some evolution points to other things such as defences, senses and arms. Indeed, for a synthesist, arms are more or less a necessity.

Base form: quadruped
Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11

Level 1
Free evolutions: bite, limbs (legs x2).
3 points: claws, pounce, reach (bite).
Feats: Power Attack
Full attack: bite (1d6+4), claw (1d4+4), claw (1d4+4), including +2 strength bonus and +2 power attack.

Level 2: pull (bite)
4 points: claws, pounce, pull (bite), reach (bite). Can now bite something and pull it into claw range. Useful if you don't have room to charge.

Level 3: ability increase (str), lose pull
Feat: Combat Reflexes
5 points: ability increase (str), claws, pounce, reach (bite).
Full attack: bite (1d6+5), claw (1d4+5), claw (1d4+5).

Level 4: grab (claws), rake, lose ability increase
7 points: claws, grab (claws), pounce, rake, reach (bite).
The 4th natural attack is the rake. By RAW, every claw attack can grab a smaller creature and give 2 rake attacks each time. You can then release the grab and continue your full attack. However, this build is based on my own interpretation that grab works on equal-sized enemies (as UMR) but rake is limited to 2 attacks per turn.
Full attack: charge, bite (1d6+4), claw (1d4+4), grab, rake (1d4+4), rake (1d4+4), claw (1d4+4), grab. You can keep the last enemy grappled.

Level 5: flight, temporarily lose reach
Ability increase goes to Con.
8 points: claws, flight, grab (claws), pounce, rake]
Power attack bonus goes up to +4 at this point.

Level 6: reach (bite)
Feat: Lunge
9 points: claws, flight, grab (claws), pounce, rake, reach (bite)

Level 7: pull (bite)
10 points: claws, flight, grab (claws), pounce, pull (bite), rake, reach (bite)

Level 8: rebuild
11 points: claws, energy attacks (electricity), flight, large, pounce, reach (bite).
Up to large size. Temporarily down to 3 attacks, but energy attacks compensate for that. Combat Reflexes becomes less useful with a lower dex.
Ability Scores: Str 22, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Full attack: charge, bite (1d8+10 + 1d6 electric), claw (1d8+10+1d6), grab, claw (1d8+10+1d6), grab.

Level 9: claws (hind legs), pull (bite)
Feat: Improved Natural Attack (claw). If you're not allowed monster feats, Eldritch Claws would be handy.
13 points: claws x2, energy attacks, flight, large, pounce, pull (bite), reach (bite).
Full attack: charge, bite (1d8+10+1d6), claw (1d8+10+1d6), claw (1d8+10+1d6), claw (1d8+10+1d6), claw (1d8+10+1d6), grab

Level 10: rend, lose pull
Ability increase goes to Str.
14 points: claws x2, energy attacks, flight, large, pounce, reach (bite), rend.
As I interpret it, rend can be used multiple times in a round, but I'm not sure exactly what the damage should be. Damage below is based on the claw damage dice (including energy damage, but without strength bonus or power attack), then adding 1 1/2 str bonus for rend, and 1 1/2 times power attack.
Power attack is +6.
Full attack: charge, bite (1d8+12+1d6), claw (1d8+12+1d6), claw (1d8+12+1d6), rend (1d8+16+1d6), claw (1d8+12+1d6), claw (1d8+12+1d6), grab, rend (1d8+16+1d6)

Level 11: improved damage (claws)
Feat: Hammer the Gap.
15 points: claws x2, energy attacks, flight, improved damage (claws), large, pounce, pull (bite), reach (bite).
I would say rend doesn't count as a hit for hammering purposes, as it's not an attack.
Full attack: charge, bite (1d8+12+1d6), claw (2d6+13+1d6), claw (2d6+14+1d6), rend (2d6+16+1d6), claw (2d6+15+1d6), claw (2d6+16+1d6), grab, rend (2d6+16+1d6), if all attacks are hammering away at the same enemy.

Level 12: pull (bite)
16 points: claws x2, energy attacks, flight, improved damage (claws), large, pounce, pull (bite), reach (bite), rend.

Level 13: trip, lose pull
17 points: claws x2, energy attacks, flight, improved damage (claws), large, pounce, reach (bite), rend, trip.

Level 14: grab (claws), rake, lose trip
Feat: Desperate Battler
19 points: claws x2, energy attacks, flight, grab (claws), improved damage (claws), large, pounce, rake, reach (bite), rend.
Full attack: charge, bite (1d8+13+1d6), claw (2d6+14+1d6), grab, rake (1d6+15+1d6), rake (1d6+16+1d6), claw (2d6+17+1d6), rend (2d6+17+1d6), claw (2d6+18+1d6), claw (2d6+19+1d6), grab, rend (2d6+17+1d6), using the assumptions above plus Desperate Battler bonus.

Level 15: pull (bite)
Ability increase goes to Str.
20 points: claws x2, energy attacks, flight, grab (claws), improved damage (claws), large, pounce, pull (bite), rake, reach (bite), rend.
Strength bonus is +7, power attack is +8.
Full attack: charge, bite (1d8+16+1d6), claw (2d6+17+1d6), grab, rake (1d6+18+1d6), rake (1d6+19+1d6), claw (2d6+20+1d6), rend (2d6+21+1d6), claw (2d6+21+1d6), claw (2d6+22+1d6), grab, rend (2d6+21+1d6)
Still only 4 limbs (plus wings) at level 15.

Popular summoner feats include the tree: Spell Focus (conjuration), Augment Summoning, Superior Summoning. Summon Good Monster or Summon Neutral Monster will be useful, assuming you're not evil. Extra Evolution is good: pouncers are very evolution-hungry. Summoner’s Call is useful when you have the luxury to prepare (summon monster, summon eidolon, buff, kick down the door).
A synthesist will benefit from Combat Casting. Resilient Eidolon is vital if your eidolon has a higher constitution than you (as it will once it's large).