Help optimize a Rogue / Mage? Stuck with Arcane Trickster?

[Jhango]

Hey guys!

I know I am going into this character idea with a bit of a gimped concept, but I am determined to make it work the best I can, and I was hoping someone could perhaps guide me in the right direction on making this character as effective as possible.

Our game is Pathfinder Pure, so no 3.5 content.
I don't want to rely on any magic items. Our DM tends to lock these down rather hard. (Get what we are given kinda thing. Cant go to the magic store and buy them)

Going Rogue / Mage, I think I am stuck going Arcane Trickster. If there is another option, please let me know.
My only concern with Arcane Trickster is the low BAB.

So my Thoughts to "get around it" is to go Spellslinger archtype on Wizard so my attacks can all be touch attacks.
Going Spellslinger however means I'll need another source for the Mage Hand spell, thus means taking the Arcane Talent feat or Rogue talent. (Unless someone has a better idea)

My thought is to take Aasimar for race. I'm thinking the subtype that gives Glitterdust spell like ability. Also gives a Dex bonus if I remember correctly. but does not allow me to use Arcane Talent feat to get mage hands by going Half Elf and taking Drow Magic for Darkness.


Should allow me to enter Arcane Trickster with Spellslinger 1 / Rogue 3.

I am also debating Visectionist Alchemist as a different way into the rogue side. However that means no option for entering with the Rogue talent.

Starting feats I am looking at are:

Arcane Talent (if I am a Half-Elf)
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Arcane Armor Training (so I can wear at least leather)


Any suggestions? Over all, I just want to make a Rogue / Mage work in pathfinder.

Thanks for the help in advance!!

[avr]

I guess the question is what is the concept exactly? Do you want a sneaky arcane caster, or someone who does damage via sneak attack and who has some magic tricks? Neither necessarily requires multiclassing rogue and wizard or going into the arcane trickster PrC.

If your concept is 'arcane trickster PrC' then yes, that entry works.

[grarrrg]

Going Spellslinger however means I'll need another source for the Mage Hand spell, thus means taking the Arcane Talent feat or Rogue talent. (Unless someone has a better idea)

You can still learn Mage Hand and cast it from a 1st level spell slot.
Losing Cantrips mostly means you have no 0th level slots, you can always prepare a lower level spell into a higher level slot.


I guess the question is what is the concept exactly? Do you want a sneaky arcane caster, or someone who does damage via sneak attack and who has some magic tricks? Neither necessarily requires multiclassing rogue and wizard or going into the arcane trickster PrC.

^ Kinda this.
Are you more concerned with the Rogue part, or the Wizard part?

[Jhango]

I would say more of someone who does damage via sneak attack and who has some magic tricks. I do also like the idea of Sneak attacking with Ray spells.
The Rogue side would be more important. I don't mind making some sacrifices in the Spell Casting side. I don't care if I never am able to cast level 9 spells etc. I just want a good tool box of Arcane spells.

Kinda like the idea behind the Shadow Walkers of 2nd Edition's Forgotten Realms "Wizards and Rogues of the Realms".

Arcane Trickster, as far as I am aware looks like the most efficient way of doing this.

If I could, I'd take Shadow Dancer in the build as it fits the concept, but it lacks both casting and sneak attack.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd suggest switching Mindchemist Vivisectionist Alchemist (add Internal Alchemist as well if you want) instead of rogue. You'll still have SA, but also get cognatogen to boost Int, discoveries....which are way better than rogue talents (familiar, extra arms, crit resistance, etc...), and some extracts.

Also note that if you want more wizard/casting focus, you can dip a level in Sleepless Dectective (or Assassin, but that's evil and sucky) and get in as an Alchemist 1 / Wiz 4 / SD 1 (you need 5 levels to enter either prestige class, sadly). You won't actually lose much BAB compared to Alchemist 3 / Wizard 3 entry...Arcane Trickster is doomed to have atrocious BAB no matter what. You would lose access to discoveries / extra discovery feat, though.

[FidgetySquirrel]

If you want to SA with spells in PF pure, I think you are stuck with arcane trickster. Heck, if I'm right, you'll have to take all 10 levels before you can even do it! That's assuming I'm interpreting this text properly, of course:


Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Note that the Rules Compendium clarified that volley spells, i.e. spells that make multiple attacks such as Scorching Ray, only get sneak attack on one of their attacks if it takes less than a full-round action to cast. For that reason, a Sorcerer or Warmage using a +0 metamagic like Invisible Spell actually makes a better sneak-attacking spellcaster because you can get multiple sneak attack hits from a single spell, since spontaneously cast spells with metamagic take longer to cast.

Something like Spellthief or Rogue 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Unseen Seer 2/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Arcane Trickster 8 would be ideal. Get the Acidic Splatter reserve feat in CM along with Heighten Spell and learn the Acid Slash cantrip and you can always use your highest level spell slot to determine the power of your Acidic Splatter reserve feat. Use Greater Invisibility and cast Scorching Ray with Invisible Spell and maybe Split Ray and possibly Silent Spell and your opponents won't even know what hit them!

[StreamOfTheSky]

Note that the Rules Compendium clarified that volley spells, i.e. spells that make multiple attacks such as Scorching Ray, only get sneak attack on one of their attacks if it takes less than a full-round action to cast. For that reason, a Sorcerer or Warmage using a +0 metamagic like Invisible Spell actually makes a better sneak-attacking spellcaster because you can get multiple sneak attack hits from a single spell, since spontaneously cast spells with metamagic take longer to cast.

This is pathfinder, that rule doesn't apply. I think currently in PF there is no "volley rule" limit, but also ranged touch in general doesn't count, only specifically ray spells and melee touch are "weapon-like." Could be wrong, though.

FS, Surprise Spells is for ANY damaging spell. You can still SA on weapon-like before level 10. The capstone lets you use it on stuff like magic missile or stone call. Sidenote: If DM lets the Bludgeoner feat count for Stone Call (it *is* bludgeoning damage), combining stone call + surprise spells + bludgeoner feat + sap master feat is awesome at high levels.

[Spore]

I am kind of on the same boat here. My problem is that I would LOVE to have a Fighter/Rogue/Dilletante Wizard with Int governed casting. Kinda like :nale: Nale but with fewer classes (since multiclassing is borked in PF).

I like the Magus but it lacks the skill versatility of rogues.
I like Bards but I dislike Bardic Performances and Charisma as casting stat
I like Fighters but I immensely dislike the uselessness out of fights.

I have made decent Fighter/Rogues and Magus. But I cannot think about a working Fighter/Rogue/Wizard that doesn't scale terribly.

[Khosan]

I have made decent Fighter/Rogues and Magus. But I cannot think about a working Fighter/Rogue/Wizard that doesn't scale terribly.

You really want Vivisectionist Alchemist then. Sneak Attack, 3/4ths BAB, Int-based 'casting' that's mostly buffs, but still pretty decent.

[avr]

Yup, Vivisectionist alchemist is the obvious answer with full sneak attack and 2/3 spells. Also able to get a tentacle to help reload if you decide to TWF pistols.

There are other options for the OP though. The Archaeologist bard archetype {with the fate's favored trait & arcane strike) is more accurate if less damaging than an Arcane Trickster. The Sandman bard archetype is the descendent of 3.5's Spellthief. Either could take a level in Gunslinger (mysterious stranger) usefully if you want guns.

Rogue or Ninja 3 / Oracle (waves mystery) 1 / Arcane Trickster X can drop an obscuring mist which they can see through to reliably deliver sneak attack. AT can advance any spellcasting, not just arcane - table & text agree here even if the class name doesn't.

If you want to deliver lots of damage Ninja 3 / Sorcerer (crossblooded orc/dragon) 1 / AT X works.

[Spore]

You really want Vivisectionist Alchemist then. Sneak Attack, 3/4ths BAB, Int-based 'casting' that's mostly buffs, but still pretty decent.

I never said that I NEED sneak attacks. I will happily trade them for a few more feats. Maybe really a Ranger/Wizard/Eldritch Knight.

[Khosan]

If you want to deliver lots of damage Ninja 3 / Sorcerer (crossblooded orc/dragon) 1 / AT X works.

For the early entry like that, you need to be an Aasimar or some other race that gets you a SLA of a 2nd+ level spell. Azata-Blooded Aasimar gets you +2 Dex/Cha and Glitterdust, for example.

[avr]

For the early entry like that, you need to be an Aasimar or some other race that gets you a SLA of a 2nd+ level spell. Azata-Blooded Aasimar gets you +2 Dex/Cha and Glitterdust, for example.
As noted in the original post of this thread, yeah.

[FidgetySquirrel]

TFS, Surprise Spells is for ANY damaging spell. You can still SA on weapon-like before level 10. The capstone lets you use it on stuff like magic missile or stone call. Sidenote: If DM lets the Bludgeoner feat count for Stone Call (it *is* bludgeoning damage), combining stone call + surprise spells + bludgeoner feat + sap master feat is awesome at high levels.Ah, okay. Somehow, this has never come up in any of my groups. Thanks for the clarification.