what would happen if parsons "cheated"

[donkyhotay]

I'm pretty certain parsons will fight the battle in the erfworld turn-based format which he is familiar with from his games but one thing I was wondering is what would happen if he just chose not to end his turn and kept going? I mean, cheating by just playing real-time on a turn-based war would go against his skills but his life is on the line now and continuing to move without ending the turn would be the "logical" way to fight a war since parsons knows thats how real wars are fought in his world.

[onasuma]

and yet it would break that worlds physical rules

[Khantalas]

Parsons? As in, more than one?

[BabbageCliolog]

and yet it would break that worlds physical rules

Maybe, maybe not. "When do you make plans? When do your units heal and disband?" It seems that it's a cultural perception of the "time" issue with the inhabitants, not an actual "rule."

For ex: if "1 Turn" equals "1 daylight day" and there is only 1 Turn per whole day, that precludes using night. "We don't fight at night."

But then, if they don't attack at night, what does that effect Vinnie's Doombats? Bats are traditionally nocturnal.

Something to think about.

/BC

[donkyhotay]

Exactly, I had been assuming that the turn-based war was simply a physical aspect of this universe (your units stop moving once they've moved as far as they can until your turn again) but this comic http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0029.html seems to indicate that it is more of a social/cultural and it has never occured to anyone to do otherwise. Maybe we'll find out soon as parson finds this out himself but what would happen if he just kept going and never ended the turn. Likewise even if you couldn't move your units what would happen if you never ended your turn. I've played games where someone who is about to lose pulls something childish like this and it is simply assumed as giving in but how would refusing to end your turn work like this?

[Jarelk]

Ah, but look at this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/erf0007.html)

"My Gwiffon has 2 move left".

If these "turns" are not a physical rule, what does this mean?

Then again, it may also mean that her Gwiffon is tired, but since when do people know how far someones mount can move before collapsing (I think I misspelled this word) from exhaustion?

[Lex Sandar]

It has been mentioned that at least Stanley can SEE the stats of his forces...although not those of Lord Hamster. If other officer types can do the same, it would be rather logical that they could remember how far their troops could go.

[archon_huskie]

Perhaps Lord Hamster could continue attacking after the enemy is done.

[Jacob_Gallagher]

What's a little bizarre is that I just came to this forum right now to post a new topic... and I was thinking I'd call it 'What if Parson doesn't play by the rules?'

Now I feel like the only ideas I come up with have already been said...

I'm a Superfluous Man!

Edit: Gah! The topic right below this is Superfluous Elves! :eek:

On-topic, I was thinking that perhaps at first Prince Ansom would marvel at how quickly Stanley's troops redeployed... then watch his troops get slaughtered in the night.

[TheOtherMC]

Ah, but look at this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/erf0007.html)

"My Gwiffon has 2 move left".


Then again, it may also mean that her Gwiffon is tired, but since when do people know how far someones mount can move before collapsing (I think I misspelled this word) from exhaustion?

I think she was trying to adress the fact that she barely made it there in the turn. In other words, two more "movement" and she would have been forced to end turn outside of camp, in the open; and we've seen what happens to those who end turn out in the open :smallbiggrin:

[Demented]

They just end up stuck there, without either the will or ability to move.
Kind of like a Union and lunch hour.
"But...but... we just need five more minutes!"
"My baloney sandwich says it can wait, bub."

[Electric_Monkey]

Hmmm....On the one hand, we could see Parson moving out of his turn-based comfort zone for an advantage - parson at least knows about real time war, unlike Ansom who has lived in Erfworld his whole life. On the other, Ansom's been shown to have more independent commanders, and so he might do better without the luxury of a planning phase once he gets used to the idea.

Of course, it could turn out that "turns" and "move" are part of the physics or metaphysics of the world, and the whole turn-based vs. real time thing will be moot.

[blackout]

I doubt it's really a physics thing, so Parson could very well win the entire war in one 'turn', just by making his troops fight at night and by breaking the rules regarding turns.

[donkyhotay]

who know's, maybe parson will attempt it and find out the hard way that there is a VERY good reason wars are fought with turns on erfworld.

[archon_huskie]

Of course I cannot imagine that it is that easy to fight at night. Probablly some negative modifiers there.

[Strengfellow]

For those who are not familiar with the Asterix books read Asterix in Britain,
The Britons had Tea breaks, lunch breaks, battles end at 5pm each day and no fighting on weekends.
The Romans defeated the Britons by fighting during these times.
Now Parson is a sufficiently dedicated geek and obviously started young enough to have cut his teeth on the works of Goscinny and Uderzo.
In conclusion I would be very surprised if he didn't at least try to circumvent the rules of engagement.

[Bilgore]

I doubt it's really a physics thing, so Parson could very well win the entire war in one 'turn', just by making his troops fight at night and by breaking the rules regarding turns.
Why should Parson follow the same rules as everyone else, being an "outsider?"
That said, it also doesn't make sense that his presence would allow others to violate local physical laws.

As has been pointed out, every unit has a "move" score it can't exceed in a day.

Now, Parson himself has no points that Stanley can see, so I suspect Parson himself will be able to scout at night, but he won't be able to command troops during this time.

(Imagine a strategy game with a special unit that has average move and stats, but has the "special ability" to take two turns for each turn all the other units get.)

[donkyhotay]

I'm imagining a unit with unlimited attacks/moves per turn which is what parson would be then. That would be easy for him to just pick up a sword and go on a stabbing spree and never end the turn. Even if all other units run out of moves this would not apply to parson.

[mport2004]

however he can lose battles and i dont think he is a good fighter

[Teron]

however he can lose battles and i dont think he is a good fighter
That's the key factor - presumably, the enemy can fight back when attacked, like in the Civilization or Fire Emblem games. I doubt Parson could accomplish much by trying to beat the system on his own. As for teaching Stanley's forces to do so... I think he might try, with disastrous results.

Tangentially, the whole idea reminds me of Prince Reyson* from Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance. Who the hell would turn down his offer to join your group, especially when he comes with two hawk laguz for good measure?[/geek]

*He can't fight, but allows one or several of your units to act twice per turn.

[donkyhotay]

Even if it's slow he could probably do it (assuming he's not just TOO weak). Imagine in a turn based game having 1 unit that has unlimited movement, unlimited attacks and natural healing (might take some time if parson gets too badly hurt but humans in our world do naturally heal). It would be cheap but I would use that to win especially if my life was on the line.

[hewhosaysfish]

Notice that, although the cycle of turns in Erfworld seems to be tied to the day/night cycle, the sun is shown setting just as Prince Ansom's order to end the turn is given.

Theory: The turn cycle dictates the day/night cycle, not the other way around.
Discuss.

[Soniku]

however he can lose battles and i dont think he is a good fighter

Maybe he's not too good in a fight, but don't forget, in Erfworld his height is that of a giant, and weight is definitely on his side. It would be as easy to throw the troops around as it would to pick up a small child in our world.

[Imgran]

I think we can assume that there's some reason that won't work because it's too much of a deux ex machina.

I think we can assume that it doesn't really matter to us what that reason is since the end result is, it won't work.

Of course that doesn't mean Parson won't try it but it won't work

Also remember that as big as he is, Parson's led a sedentary life. A very large sedentary civilian can be taken down exceedingly easily by a skilled warrior, even if that skilled warrior is half to a third of his size. If they've had martial arts training that size and weight would even be used against him.

Remember, if you don't have numbers in a system, there's three possibilities of the results of a hostile engagement

1: There's nothing to damage, and you are thus immune
2: You are assumed to have 0 hit points and you will die at a light touch.
3: Your existence throws an intolerable variable to the system and the system fails/the world ends.

I don't think 1 is safe to assume, although you can assume that if 3 would have happened it would have happened by now.

One thing I'm wondering is if this game has a level system in it. Parson would have made provisions for troops to gain experience -- he wouldn't omit such a crucial piece of determing whether one or another army wins as battlefield experience.

It'll be intriguing whether, when he gains some experience he is presumed to be at first level, the system integrated him and he starts having numbers that Stanley can see.

[donkyhotay]

Your probably right that parson cheating won't work (it would make a very boring story) but I am hoping he will attempt it and find out the hard way.

[the_tick_rules]

nah, i doubt stanley would allow it. and with that obedience clause.

[HomerHT]

I agree with the theory that the turn dictates the day/night cycle. Parson still has to play by the rules, and there is the concept of move, so he can't wipe out Ansom in one night cycle. I think Parson trying to not act in turn would be like Colin Powell trying to turn off gravity for a little while.

[KillerCardinal]

I agree with the theory that the turn dictates the day/night cycle. Parson still has to play by the rules, and there is the concept of move, so he can't wipe out Ansom in one night cycle. I think Parson trying to not act in turn would be like Colin Powell trying to turn off gravity for a little while.

He might have to play by the rules, but how do we KNOW that? The simile doesn't really work, as Colin Powell was originally part of our world, and not summoned from another plane of existance with majorly different laws of nature. (At least not the last time I checked:smallwink: )

[Poppatomus]

He might have to play by the rules, but how do we KNOW that? The simile doesn't really work, as Colin Powell was originally part of our world, and not summoned from another plane of existance with majorly different laws of nature. (At least not the last time I checked:smallwink: )

But the fact that Parson can be forced to laugh, as well as the implication that he can be willed out of existance (disbanded), suggests that he is bound by the physics of the world he finds himself in. It also suggest that the "rules" of the game are built into the universe itself. (The fact that the sunset is driven by the turn ending seems to be another good piece of evidence for this, as is the auto-healing at the start of a turn, the fact that "loot" was dropped by a captured unit, and the summoning of rations from thin air.)

All of those occurances could be explained away as various spells designed to reinforce the prevailing views of society on combat, but that's either a much more complex explanation than a world where game physics are physics or the effectivly the same (barring some sort of mass dispell.)

[KillerCardinal]

But the fact that Parson can be forced to laugh, as well as the implication that he can be willed out of existance (disbanded), suggests that he is bound by the physics of the world he finds himself in. It also suggest that the "rules" of the game are built into the universe itself. (The fact that the sunset is driven by the turn ending seems to be another good piece of evidence for this, as is the auto-healing at the start of a turn, the fact that "loot" was dropped by a captured unit, and the summoning of rations from thin air.)

All of those occurances could be explained away as various spells designed to reinforce the prevailing views of society on combat, but that's either a much more complex explanation than a world where game physics are physics or the effectivly the same (barring some sort of mass dispell.)

Well, I basically see the restrictions on parson's behavior as being a part of the spell that brought him here. Since the effects were specifically targeted towards him, he can be affected by it. But other rules may or may not affect him.

As far as the sun goes, I don't think that he can prolong a day(at least not without stanley's help), but may be able to keep moving indefinately *until* the commander calls end of turn. Basically, my idea on this is that if it is a *global* effect, he can't avoid it, but if it is a local effect(I can't move more the X in a turn, thus I'm going to stop *right* here) he can ignore it. Also, I can easily see him doing stuff at night, but again I don't see him contolling when night ends, just that he can act during that time.

Gah, I think that my theory is both simple and complicated at the same time. As in, "Seems simple to me until I try to explain it!":smallbiggrin:

[fractal]

On a different note, everyone can clearly act to some extent, even when it's not their "turn". Wanda has been busy torturing Jillian all night. Sizemore has been educating Parson. Bogroll has been making armor and pie. Just because war doesn't happen then doesn't mean that people are helpless.

Now, whether or not people can "move" at night is an interesting question. If so, I expect Parson to use it for at least a temporary advantage.

[dragonseth]

Hmm. God Mode. Interesting to see how this will be implemented.

[ArkhamPatient]

I'm imagining a unit with unlimited attacks/moves per turn which is what parson would be then. That would be easy for him to just pick up a sword and go on a stabbing spree and never end the turn. Even if all other units run out of moves this would not apply to parson.

I don't think he could defend against ALL those counter attack rolls.

[SteveMB]

On a different note, everyone can clearly act to some extent, even when it's not their "turn". Wanda has been busy torturing Jillian all night. Sizemore has been educating Parson. Bogroll has been making armor and pie. Just because war doesn't happen then doesn't mean that people are helpless.
Wanda's statement that Jillian would be "in the clear" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0036.html) once dawn arrives implies that that activity is specific to the "between turns" night.


Now, whether or not people can "move" at night is an interesting question. If so, I expect Parson to use it for at least a temporary advantage.

The twoll Jillian hit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0010.html) as a target of opportunity said he "hated ending turn out in the open field", but was presumably unable to get to a safer position. It may be a natural law of Erfworld that binds Parson as much as anyone.

[donkyhotay]

Look like we're about to find when he tries to control units at night.

[Astaroth]

He might have to play by the rules, but how do we KNOW that? The simile doesn't really work, as Colin Powell was originally part of our world, and not summoned from another plane of existance with majorly different laws of nature. (At least not the last time I checked:smallwink: )

A slightly more apt metaphor; can Superman turn off gravity? Well, just as here, the answer depends on how you define it. For himself (and others he carries with him) he can indeed, but he can't do so globally. It's an obvious distinction to make. Then again, we also don't know how Rob feels about red herrings, there might be nothing unusual about Parson except his otherworldly knowledge and strategy.

About all we really know at this point is that he's not going to be able to win the game instantly in one turn, as that would be a pretty boring, and quick, end to the strip.

[Vreejack]

About all we really know at this point is that he's not going to be able to win the game instantly in one turn, as that would be a pretty boring, and quick, end to the strip.


He doesn't need to completely destroy Ansom in order to make "cheating" worthwhile. He only needs to gain an advantage from it. Do not forget that he is outnumbered 25-1. Even a really big cheat might only even things out. I suspect that he is about to try to use the dwagons to rain carnage down upon Ansom's land forces. He might be able to cripple the army or destroy the siege units. This would change the focus of the battle from the surface assault to the underground attack, which was originally supposed to be a feint but might turn out to be Ansom's only remaining avenue of assault.

[SITB]

Maybe it's an inbuilt rule that units can't move if their "move" attribue is spent, but if the dragons didn't move during the day can they move at night?

[Firestar27]

If the setting of the sun dictates the end of the turn, then maybe if he keeps moving west, then he can make his turn longer than it really is. By going west, he is going back in time zones. If it takes me one hour to go from a city in GMT-5 to a city in GMT-6, then I will get there at the same hour and (almost the same) sun position as a I left. If the turn ends when the sun sets, then he can just keep going west with a fast creature. He then only has to stop moving when he runs out of move.