Dread necromancer gish

[keeper2161]

So i am basing this character off of someone elses gish. I will link that. So build goes as such.

dread necro 8/ duskblade 3/ abjurant champion 5/ dread necro 4

the dusk blade for arcane channeling and abjurant champion for full BAB and full casting it think. My issue is that the DN gets nothing from the class features of the abjurant champion. The only abjuration spells he gets are hide from undead, Undetectable Alignment, dispel magic and dispel magic greater. To fully use the abjurant champions featrues you need spells that buff you with armor. The only good feature is arcane boost. Which it's pretty awesome but is it really worth the 4 levels to get it? The fifth level of abjurant champion doesn't seem useful either because by level 20 your BAB is 14 but your spell casting level is 17. The final feature say that your BAB is your caster level The abjurant champion level stacks with the dread necromancer for caster level. So is the full BAB, full casting, and the arcane boost worth it. At the the cost of the other features being useless and is the last level of abjurant champion worth it. I like the duskblade because your can channel a harm and other touch spells through your blade plus your other touch attack abilites. I like abjurant champion it just seems like there would be a class that would fit better with dread necromancer.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Melee_Specialized_Dread_Necromancer_%283.5e_Optimi zed_Character_Build%29

[Snowbluff]

I would try something like Daggerspell Mage instead. It would give a little more synergy with the DN's touch spells.

I have no idea how it interacts with spells like Chill Touch, which have multiple charges.

[keeper2161]

The problem with Daggerspell Mage is the sneak attack prerequisite. I was thinking of following the original build and using a greatsword.

[keeper2161]

My plan was to be a straight up melee gish. Not a tank but could be on the front lines and match or be greater then the fighters and barbarians through the use of temporary health and the like.

[WhamBamSam]

Arcane Disciple could give you some decent Abjuration spells to play around with. Really though, I wouldn't use much Abjurant Champ, if I used any at all. Rather, I'd use Arcane Disciple (Competition) and be a Naenhoon Illumian to persist Divine Power for my BAB needs. Hell, I might just go straight Dread Necro 20.

Also, if you want to combine magic and hitting things, Jade Phoenix Mage is a much better way of going about it than Duskblade. Dread Necro 6/Crusader 1/JPM 8/Dread Necro +2/Spellsword 1/JPM +2 is pretty good, though it loses 9th level spells which is always a disappointment. Leading the Charge is a lot of fun with a horde of undead at your back. Stances are technically a type of maneuver, so you could ask your DM if Martial Study (Battle Leader's Charge) and Martial Stance (Leading the Charge) can meet the maneuver/stance prereqs for JPM. If they can, then Dread Necro 6/JPM 8/Dread Necro +2/Jade Phoenix Mage +2/Abjurant Champ 2 works.

[keeper2161]

The issue for the JPM is that you can't say use harm through your weapon. With spellsword its only a few times a day. With dipping three levels into duskblade i can channel harm or anyother touch spell through my weapon as many times as i have spell slots. I like the adjurent champion its just the only good feature is the arcane boost. The full BAB and the full casting is great. If there was a class that was like that but not specialized for the abjuration school i would take it in a heart beat and not look back. Or if there was a way for me to get abjuration school spells like luminous armor on my DN i would love it. By the way i dm'ed an adventure where one of my players used that all the time, i hate that spell but its so nice.

[Pluto!]

I really dislike Duskblade here. Much more than I dislike AbjChamp.

3 levels with no casting advancement is a huge loss, and Arcane Channeling isn't even all that much better than Improved Unarmed Strike, considering that DN 12/DB3/AC5 doesn't have many ways of boosting attack bonuses high enough to Power Attack. Even Smiting Spell would be smoother.

Abjurant Champion is just there for its chassis, and you aren't going to find a better chassis for a melee gish. The abilities in this case are icing. If anything, what I'd want to do with this build is replace the Duskblade and Dread Necromancer levels with more classes that are just there for the chassis - Knight Phantom is always flashy, but Eldritch Knight is easier and probably stronger here. Cyran Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050707b&page=2) might also be an option, based on its smite ability, leaving 2 levels for Divine Oracle, Paragnostic Apostle or some other easy 2-level dip. I'd also badly want the Law and/or Knowledge Devotion feats if you're going to be eschewing Touch attacks in favor of standard attacks made at below a Rogue's BA.

With all that in mind, I have to say that I have no idea how this build conceptually differs from an evil straightclassed cleric, but it looks straight-up worse in nearly all regards. Granted, Cleric's a high bar to set, but undead minions and whacking things are its MOs, and it's right there in the PHB.

[WhamBamSam]

Luminous Armor is a sanctified spell, which makes it unavailable unless your Dread Necro is dedicated to good (he's just misunderstood you guys!). The easiest spell list expansion for Dread Necromancers is Arcane Disciple. I'm not sure if there's any domain that's really a slam dunk for abjurations, but there's probably something that you'll like if you decide to go fishing.

[keeper2161]

Well I also like the role playing of a dread necromancer. Most of the power of this build would come from the channeled touch spells. The idea is to use arcane magic not divine magic to power this build. The 3 level dip into DB i find acceptable because of all the channeled abilities that i have seen can't compare to the DB's ability. I also don't want an evil character, i want a neutral character that uses undead and specifically negative energy to deal damage. From what i see from most gish builds is that they seem to simply buff themselves then go into battle. I want to use touch spells and touch abilities with the dread necromancer role playing. I know the build won't be as powerful as others but I'm doing it for the role playing aspect and trying to get the most out of it. I have an after adventure plan with the character. So simply put I don't simply a gish, I want a dread necromancer gish. A gish that makes use out of the dread necromancer abilities and spells. Like a neutral leaning toward good death knight that leads an army of intelligent undead trying to do good using not so good methods. The character will be lawful neutral or true neutral. I like the Avenging Strike. Anything that allows me to use magic through my weapon. I like the DB ability if there is something like it and keeps up with my spells would be awesome. And i mean carbon copy of the DB ability or better. To me that's a must, being able to cast touch spells thought my weapon or casting range tough spells or abilities without incurring a AoO. I talked a lot and I may not have made things clearer on what my vision of the character. So if any thing is still unclear please ask and ill try to reword things.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take the feat Magical Training (PGtF) to get a spellbook with a few 0-level spells the slots to cast those from. Per the Rules Compendium, any character who prepares and casts spells can learn and add more spells to their spellbook just as a Wizard does. You can add whatever Wizard spells you want to your spellbook per the standard methods, and those are considered to be spells your character knows (you have to make a check to learn them). You have to take this at 1st level because it's a regional feat.

Get Versatile Spellcaster (RotD), you can spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher. This allows you to spend two Dread Necromancer spell slots to cast one of those Wizard spells you learned. This gets you access to all the necessary buffs to function as a respectable Gish, except (Greater) Luminous Armor which can only be cast on good-aligned targets. You'll still be able to cast Shield, Greater Invisibility, Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mighty Wallop if applicable, etc. as well as choice utility spells that you may not have access to otherwise.

If you plan on creating undead minions you'll want Desecrate, preferably via Arcane Disciple, with Fell Energy Spell from Dragon Compendium. You'll need Wis 12 to cast that, but you can cast Owl's Wisdom just before that. Fell Energy makes any bonuses the spell provides to undead two points higher, so that +1 HP per HD becomes +3 HP per HD, and that gets doubled if there's an evil altar nearby to give them +6 HP per HD. You'll also want Awaken Undead (SC), which you can add to your spellbook, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to Fell Energy that as well to give them even higher permanent bonuses.

For your race, I would go with an Illumian from Races of Destiny with the Naenhoon sigil. This allows you to use your Rebuke Undead uses to apply metamagic to up to two spells per day, similar to Divine Metamagic but it works on arcane spells and with any metamagic feat you know. Use that to put Fell Energy on your Awaken Undead, or when adventuring to add Persistent Spell to two buffs (Wraithstrike and Swift Fly) each day.

[keeper2161]

You sir are my hero. What page is the Rules Compendium thing on cause i know my dm will ask, but im pretty sure he would allow it simply because it's cleaverness.

[Snowbluff]

Luminous Armor is a sanctified spell, which makes it unavailable unless your Dread Necro is dedicated to good (he's just misunderstood you guys!). The easiest spell list expansion for Dread Necromancers is Arcane Disciple. I'm not sure if there's any domain that's really a slam dunk for abjurations, but there's probably something that you'll like if you decide to go fishing.

Just a heads up, Luminous Armor has to be prepared.

[keeper2161]

So theoretically as a neutral dread necromancer with the magical training and versatile spellcaster i could use luminous armor?

[Snowbluff]

So theoretically as a neutral dread necromancer with the magical training and versatile spellcaster i could use luminous armor?

Generally, not without Arcane Preparation. The Magical Training might qualify you. Might.

[WeaselGuy]

I was recently trying to build a necromancer gish for a friend of mine, with the prerequisite of him casting from a book, using primarily necromancy, and effectively using a scythe in combat. The build we finally settled on was Death Master (http://dndtools.eu/classes/death-master/) 5/Paladin of Tyranny (http://dndtools.eu/classes/paladin-of-tyranny/) 2/Spellsword (http://dndtools.eu/classes/spellsword/) 1/Knight Phantom (http://dndtools.eu/classes/knight-phantom/) 10/Abjurant Champion (http://dndtools.eu/classes/abjurant-champion/) 2. This gives him 18 BAB and CL17 at 20. The only feats it requires are Still Spell and Combat Casting, but with it's high Int, I gave him Knowledge Devotion as well. We decided on Paladin of Tyranny because he needed a half-decent Charisma score for his rebuking, and with the small feat tax the bonuses from Paladin seemed more favorable.

Originally, we looked at Dread Necro for this gish build, but there's just very little synergy across the board for other PrC's.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So theoretically as a neutral dread necromancer with the magical training and versatile spellcaster i could use luminous armor?

No, the spell can only be cast on a good-aligned target. There is no way for you to benefit from (Greater) Luminous Armor if you're not good-aligned, even if you're somehow capable of casting it.


You sir are my hero. What page is the Rules Compendium thing on cause i know my dm will ask, but im pretty sure he would allow it simply because it's cleaverness.

Page 160, under Adding Spells To A Spellbook:
"Spellcasters who use spellbooks can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods."
It then goes on to describe every way a Wizard would add a spell to his spellbook, but it always uses "spellcasters who use spellbooks" instead of naming a specific class. Hence any character who uses a spellbook, even via Magical Training, can learn more spells and add them to it just as a Wizard does.

[keeper2161]

So does anyone know of a class that uses something similar to the duskblades arcane channeling? And not spellsword. i want to use it more then couple times a day. and i have been reading up on things and do i even need the ability, can i just cast touch spells through say power attack or something similar? Also the point of this build is to use undead and negative energy but not be evil. I am trying to build a class around a rp idea not trying to build the best class. If you scroll up you can see on one of my other posts of what i want this character to be. I don't want to use divine magic so clerics and the like are out, but things like southern magician are ok because the base is arcane. My hope for this character is at the end he will be a king or emperor of something like this http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361464-Idea-for-a-city&p=17759156#post17759156
and create a witcher type adventure. For those who have played the witcher 1 and 2 knows that there really are no evil or good choices just moral gray areas. I see too many times people try to create the most ba builds that they can and it seem it takes the fun out of the game when you can solo most of the adventure. What I want in the end is a character that would make a good end campaign boss, someone that can go toe to toe with the melee and hold off the spellcasters at the same time. His personality will be speak softly but carry a big stick. So when the players first meet him they crap their pants and then some, but when they talk to him he's the nicest guy in the world. And i want to play that character from level one and forge his destiny. Instead of writing his history I forged his history with the choices I made. I think it would create a much richer back story. Plus it would be fun to see it all unfold.

[Divide by Zero]

You could do it with a spell-storing weapon and some action economy abuse, and maybe homebrew a Greater version if necessary. It wouldn't be powerful, but probably more so than setting three caster levels on fire.

[keeper2161]

I don't like relaying on items for two reason: 1. More enough then not it relays on a generous dm 2. If the item is taken from you or is destroyed. I might just homebrew a feat, but that runs into the the same issue as reason 1. Do you think the feat is overpowered?

[keeper2161]

Is there any way to not incur an AoO when casting a touch or range touch spell?

[Kantolin]

Would the PHB2 Smiting Spell feat help? It's on page 92

[keeper2161]

That would help yes. I have heard a lot of people don't like that feat but now that i look at it it seems really nice for my build. That would mean I can get rid of duskblade and get some other class to put there.

[keeper2161]

Ok so I have been research a lot. Like for good week or more. And this is the build i have so far.

race:human (for the extra feat)

DN 8/adjurant champion 4

take two flaws: pathetic (-2 to an attribute, con in my case cause i plan to go undead), meager fortitude (-3 fort)

1st:spell focus(necromancy), southern magician, Magical Training, Versatile Spellcaster

3rd: smithing spell

6th: extend spell

9th: persistent spell

12th: Arcane Disciple (pride domain)

Depend on what spells i want i might make it DN 7/ AC 4/ DN 1. I don't know what other class to take. I feel like I missing something.

[keeper2161]

I know the dmm is errata away but is there anyway to do a the persist trick another way?

[Divide by Zero]

Unless I'm missing something, you're still taking two actions for every spell you attack with (one to cast it into the weapon, another for the actual attack), or more if your attack misses. At the very least you'll want Quicken Spell and Rapid Metamagic. I'd also seriously consider Incantatrix for this; it'll let you throw free Quickens on your spells, and it's not like you can really break the game too hard with a gish that's already using a suboptimal base class.

[keeper2161]

So replace spell focus with extend spell and move everything down and at level 12 get rapid metamagic?

[Divide by Zero]

Rapid Metamagic by itself doesn't do a whole lot for you, you need Quicken for it to be really useful.

Versatile Spellcaster is good enough on its own to justify taking, but can you explain what exactly all those other feats are doing for your concept?

[keeper2161]

Sure southern magician i can cast my spells as either arcane or divine. Magical training i can get a spell book with 3 0-level spells in it. This opens up a path that i can use any wizard spell. It works with versatile spellcaster. I can get say fireball, sacrifice two level 2 spell slots and cast fireball using a level 3 spell slot. Just scroll up in this thread for biffoniacus_furiou's post. I need extend spell to get persistent spell. I use arcane disciple pride doman (with Wee Jas as my god) to get access to divine power at spell level 4 which gives me a BAB=to my character level. with persistent spell feat I can make it so that diving power last for 24/hours at the cost of turning. I know what i forgot, divine metamagic. Divine metamagic makes it so that i can use the dread necro's rebuke to pay for the persistent spell feat. Persistent spell say i have to prepare the spell six levels higher, but with divine metamagic i can was the rebuke to either lessen or nullify the cost. Normally diving metamagic is only for diving spells and arcane classes can't use it but with southern magician i can cast my spells as divine. Most of the things in this build are at the dm's discretion because the whole divine metamagic persistent and the magical training and versatile spellcaster whether i can actually scribe spells in the spellbook and then use them.

[WhamBamSam]

Sure southern magician i can cast my spells as either arcane or divine. Magical training i can get a spell book with 3 0-level spells in it. This opens up a path that i can use any wizard spell. It works with versatile spellcaster. I can get say fireball, sacrifice two level 2 spell slots and cast fireball using a level 3 spell slot. Just scroll up in this thread for biffoniacus_furiou's post. I need extend spell to get persistent spell. I use arcane disciple pride doman (with Wee Jas as my god) to get access to divine power at spell level 4 which gives me a BAB=to my character level. with persistent spell feat I can make it so that diving power last for 24/hours at the cost of turning. I know what i forgot, divine metamagic. Divine metamagic makes it so that i can use the dread necro's rebuke to pay for the persistent spell feat. Persistent spell say i have to prepare the spell six levels higher, but with divine metamagic i can was the rebuke to either lessen or nullify the cost. Normally diving metamagic is only for diving spells and arcane classes can't use it but with southern magician i can cast my spells as divine. Most of the things in this build are at the dm's discretion because the whole divine metamagic persistent and the magical training and versatile spellcaster whether i can actually scribe spells in the spellbook and then use them.DMM+Southern Magician is actually somewhat contested as to whether it works as I recall. And since you'd need to blow feats on Southern Magician and Divine Metamagic anyway, you might as well just be a naenhoon illumian instead of a human, which will give you a 2/day DMM which will definitely work with Dread Necro spells.

[keeper2161]

It's heavily contested to the point of vicious name calling. The problem with illumian is that southern magician and magical training require me to be a human because they are both regional feats but it's not like its a huge thing and i thing most dm's ignore the whole regional requirements.

[WhamBamSam]

It's heavily contested to the point of vicious name calling. The problem with illumian is that southern magician and magical training require me to be a human because they are both regional feats but it's not like its a huge thing and i thing most dm's ignore the whole regional requirements.Illumians are Humanoid (Human) and therefore qualify for Magical Training. You wouldn't need Southern Magician, because Naenhoon sigil works on Arcane Spells.

[keeper2161]

So the build so far

raceL: naenhoon illumian

DN8/ adjurant Champion 4

take two flaws: pathetic (-2 to an attribute, con in my case cause i plan to go undead), meager fortitude (-3 fort)

1st: extend spell, quicken spell, Magical Training, Versatile Spellcaster

3rd: smithing spell

6th: persistent spell

9th: Arcane Disciple (pride domain)

12th: Rapid Metamagic

This build i can have a full BAB, full caster level, and access to any wizard spells. With a item that increase the number of my rebuke attempts I can 1/day or 2/day use quicken spell and I won't have to use a spell slot four levels higher. Since the persistent spell lasts 24 hours and spells reset after 8 hours of uninterrupted rest I can cast it in the morning or when the party goes to bed (me being undead don't need sleep) and when the party wakes up I can use quicken spell with rapid metamagic to as a free action with it using the same level spell slot and not four levels higher and cast a touch spells 2/day, can i also cast another spell or have a full attack because the first spell takes the free action?

[keeper2161]

Just realized I need one more feat cause at first level i can only get three. I can probably convince my DM to let me take one more flaw, that will suck.