Black Dragon and Red Cloak [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

DiamondHooHaMan

2014-07-12, 04:04 PM

Keltest

2014-07-12, 04:12 PM

It is of course possible, but quite frankly there was no need for the dragon to seek allies. The dragon could not possibly have foreseen the soul splice, and if it weren't for that V would have utterly lost.

Morty

2014-07-12, 04:29 PM

And how would she know about him, much less consider asking him for help? She might have heard that a powerful goblin cleric had conquered Azure City, although I honestly can't imagine dragons care a whole lot about humanoid politics - and everyone probably paid more attention to his epic-level lich sorcerer boss anyway. But how would she come to the conclusion that he might help her?

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-07-12, 04:54 PM

If she was aware of their existence and capabilities, it is possible that she may have allied herself with them (although it is quite possible that Redcloak didn't gain his 17th level of Cleric until afterwards, so he wouldn't have been able to provide True Resurrection), but why would she be seeking allies in the first place? It can be seen that her focus was more in vengeance, something that she (barring unforseen fiendish intervention) could have easily pulled off.

factotum

2014-07-12, 05:13 PM

If she was aware of their existence and capabilities, it is possible that she may have allied herself with them (although it is quite possible that Redcloak didn't gain his 17th level of Cleric until afterwards, so he wouldn't have been able to provide True Resurrection)

No "possible" about it--it's definite; Redcloak dinged 17th level sometime shortly before strip #826 (given his comment about Implosion being a "new spell level" for him), which was long after the black dragon died. In addition, I think the dragon had her own prejudices about non-draconic species that would probably have made any sort of alliance unlikely.

Jay R

2014-07-12, 05:21 PM

If this had happened, it would have prevented the soul splice, the rescue of O-Chul, the Familicide spell, the death of all the Draketooths, and pretty much the entire plot from that point on.

orrion

2014-07-12, 06:17 PM

it seems to me that the Black Dragon could have easily allied herself with team evil on condition of RC working on True Res'ing her son. all she had to do was show up and say "hey I'm a spell casting dragon. I hate some of your enemies! as long as you help raise my kid and let me kill the elf I'm happy to be your scale-y BFG!"

plus Red Cloak ridding the Black Dragon would just be badass.

How would the ABD have figured out who Team Evil was, and why would she have bothered to?

As shown in the comic, she was fully capable of exacting vengeance herself. She could have gone and killed V's family at any point. The only reason she didn't was because she first wanted V to know who was doing it, why she was doing it, and that V was utterly powerless to stop it.

Also, the ABD didn't care at all about the other party members. She made no effort to include them in any of her plans. Her vendetta was wholly against V.

Keltest

2014-07-12, 06:19 PM

How would the ABD have figured out who Team Evil was, and why would she have bothered to?

As shown in the comic, she was fully capable of exacting vengeance herself. She could have gone and killed V's family at any point. The only reason she didn't was because she first wanted V to know who was doing it, why she was doing it, and that V was utterly powerless to stop it.

Also, the ABD didn't care at all about the other party members. She made no effort to include them in any of her plans. Her vendetta was wholly against V.

The Oracle of course.

orrion

2014-07-12, 06:57 PM

The Oracle of course.

Given that the Oracle avoided Xykon it's unlikely that he would do something like send the ABD Team Evil's way on his own initiative, and there wasn't really anything for the ABD to ask that he would answer "Team Evil" or something similar. She came to the Oracle for something specific - to find her son's killer. She didn't go to him to get help for doing it, and I'm even sure it would be reasonable to answer "Team Evil" in the event she did ask whether there was anyone who could help. The Oracle also wouldn't have answered "Redcloak" if the ABD asked for someone who could resurrect her son because Redcloak wasn't level 17 at that time.

Keltest

2014-07-12, 07:08 PM

Given that the Oracle avoided Xykon it's unlikely that he would do something like send the ABD Team Evil's way on his own initiative, and there wasn't really anything for the ABD to ask that he would answer "Team Evil" or something similar. She came to the Oracle for something specific - to find her son's killer. She didn't go to him to get help for doing it, and I'm even sure it would be reasonable to answer "Team Evil" in the event she did ask whether there was anyone who could help. The Oracle also wouldn't have answered "Redcloak" if the ABD asked for someone who could resurrect her son because Redcloak wasn't level 17 at that time.

"Does my son's killer have any other enemies?"

If were willing to assume that the ABD was willing to ask for help, she would probably ask the Oracle who would be willing to help.

Nilehus

2014-07-12, 07:12 PM

Good adventurer, Evil adventurer, both would gladly skin her on sight for armor. Why should she trust that this group of adventurers is any different from the ones that killed her husband or her son? Because they're Evil? Just means they'd probably make her suffer more than a Good group, or harness her soul for magic items or something.

BroomGuys

2014-07-12, 07:46 PM

This is one that the Giant has actually answered directly (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255125-One-quick-question&p=13861815#post13861815). We can assume that something prevented the ABD from seeking out RC for True Res, but showing that thing would've dragged the story down and been generally uninteresting. And as he mentions in the linked post, True Res shouldn't exist because it ruins stories.

Edit: I guess I should say showing it would have been "subjectively uninteresting for a potentially large number of readers" rather than "generally uninteresting."

orrion

2014-07-12, 07:55 PM

"Does my son's killer have any other enemies?"

If were willing to assume that the ABD was willing to ask for help, she would probably ask the Oracle who would be willing to help.

I don't assume the ABD was willing to ask for help. Nor do I consider Team Evil as willing to help.

Keltest

2014-07-12, 07:58 PM

I don't assume the ABD was willing to ask for help. Nor do I consider Team Evil as willing to help.

Redcloak has been shown to be willing to go out of his way to go after the Order, and the premise of the thread is a "what if" situation where she is willing, so that's sort of an assumption inherent in the discussion.

137beth

2014-07-12, 08:01 PM

"Does my son's killer have any other enemies?"

If were willing to assume that the ABD was willing to ask for help, she would probably ask the Oracle who would be willing to help.

But she had no reason to ask that, because she assumed she was fully capable of getting revenge on her own.
If she had asked "are there any 17th level clerics who would be willing to TR him?", the answer would still have been no, since RC wasn't 17th level at that time.
Once bringing him back was off the table, the only thing she wanted was revenge. She didn't need help to get revenge, so she didn't ask.

Jasdoif

2014-07-12, 08:10 PM

A big problem I see with the ABD allying with Redcloak is that their goals would be incompatible. The ABD left Vaarsuvius alive to suffer, agonizing over the inability to save his/her family. Redcloak, meanwhile, wants to stop threats to the plan...such as the Order of the Stick. Letting Vaarsuvius live after defeat would be a loose end that I don't see Redcloak willing to leave.

And if killing Vaarsuvius was acceptable...the ABD was clearly capable of doing so without any outside assistance, so there would be no need for an alliance.

Keltest

2014-07-12, 08:26 PM

But she had no reason to ask that, because she assumed she was fully capable of getting revenge on her own.
If she had asked "are there any 17th level clerics who would be willing to TR him?", the answer would still have been no, since RC wasn't 17th level at that time.
Once bringing him back was off the table, the only thing she wanted was revenge. She didn't need help to get revenge, so she didn't ask.

Of course, and I flat out said that in my very first post. But if we go into every "what if" thread and just shoot down the entire premise of the thread, then nobody is going to have a good time.

Kish

2014-07-12, 08:45 PM

I don't assume the ABD was willing to ask for help. Nor do I consider Team Evil as willing to help.
Indeed, there is an excellent chance that if she had approached them, Xykon would have killed her (because she was there would have been enough of a reason).

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-07-12, 09:01 PM

No "possible" about it--it's definite; Redcloak dinged 17th level sometime shortly before strip #826 (given his comment about Implosion being a "new spell level" for him), which was long after the black dragon died. In addition, I think the dragon had her own prejudices about non-draconic species that would probably have made any sort of alliance unlikely.

Ah, I had forgotten which strip he had cast Implosion in. If it had been closer to around when Vaarsuvius attacked, I may have been willing to have him get that level before the attack, but it wasn't.

Darth Paul

2014-07-12, 10:03 PM

Indeed, there is an excellent chance that if she had approached them, Xykon would have killed her (because she was there would have been enough of a reason).

He would have had a great reason; he needed a new ride after what happened to his old one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html). A new model, and in black; who could resist?

CaDzilla

2014-07-13, 07:34 AM

Evil isn't one big happy family. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) Plus, even though she was evil, she was CE, very individualistic. If she wanted something, she took it.

Jay R

2014-07-13, 08:20 AM

Be careful how you phrase questions to an Oracle.

"Does my son's killer have any other enemies?"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif:"Yes."

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-07-13, 08:45 AM

Be careful how you phrase questions to an Oracle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif:"Yes."

The Oracle may be slightly more willing to help a dragon, not only because the deity that gives the Oracle his powers is also very close with many dragons, but also because being cheeky to a dragon is usually not a good idea.

Edit: Not that I think the ABD would be asking that question

Vinyadan

2014-07-13, 08:54 AM

it seems to me that the Black Dragon could have easily allied herself with team evil on condition of RC working on True Res'ing her son. all she had to do was show up and say "hey I'm a spell casting dragon. I hate some of your enemies! as long as you help raise my kid and let me kill the elf I'm happy to be your scale-y BFG!"

plus Red Cloak ridding the Black Dragon would just be badass.

As someone noticed, RC wasn't able at casting TR yet. When he first shows use of 9th level spells, he says something about the thrill of a new spell level, so he couldn't have had it for very long.

The quoted comment of the Giant solves many other troubles.

We know that Dorukan had someone trying to resurrect Lirian. Since he didn't have the body around, it's very possible that the spell was TR. However, there were the conditions not to allow the spell to succeed. I think it would be just like this every time: even when the spell is around and available, there will likely be a condition to avoid it being effective, to safeguard the story.

Vinsfeld

2014-07-13, 09:46 AM

as long as you help raise my kid and let me kill the elf I'm happy to be your scale-y BFG!"

I don't think Redcloak is ready to be a father

orrion

2014-07-13, 10:51 AM

Redcloak has been shown to be willing to go out of his way to go after the Order, and the premise of the thread is a "what if" situation where she is willing, so that's sort of an assumption inherent in the discussion.

He has? He never saw them between the Dungeon of Dorukan and Azure City. He didn't seek them out during the battle for Azure City. He had 2 members of the Order under his nose for 3 1/2 months after that and as far as we know never encountered them nor made an effort to. Vaarsuvius came to them, and the situation at Girard's Gate was less "out of his way" and more "directly in front of his face." Where has Redcloak shown this willingness to seek out the Order that you're talking about?

.... It should be rather obvious by now that I'm arguing against the premise of the thread.

He would have had a great reason; he needed a new ride after what happened to his old one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html). A new model, and in black; who could resist?

His old ride was undead and he could control it flawlessly with his mind. Indeed, how could he resist killing the ABD right off to get that new ride?

137beth

2014-07-13, 11:23 AM

[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html"]\Plus, even though she was evil, she was CE, very individualistic.\
She was? :smallconfused:

He has? He never saw them between the Dungeon of Dorukan and Azure City. He didn't seek them out during the battle for Azure City. He had 2 members of the Order under his nose for 3 1/2 months after that and as far as we know never encountered them nor made an effort to. Vaarsuvius came to them, and the situation at Girard's Gate was less "out of his way" and more "directly in front of his face." Where has Redcloak shown this willingness to seek out the Order that you're talking about?

.... It should be rather obvious by now that I'm arguing against the premise of the thread.

The first time Redcloak was really interested in killing the Order was outside Girard's rift. At that point, the Order was not "out of his way." And, of course, it was long after the dragon had been killed.

Killer Angel

2014-07-14, 06:38 AM

Jay R

2014-07-14, 07:28 AM

The Oracle may be slightly more willing to help a dragon, ...

Doesn't matter. That was the exact, complete answer to the question as phrased.

Keltest

2014-07-14, 07:31 AM

Doesn't matter. That was the exact, complete answer to the question as phrased.

I would think the oracle would be somewhat smarter than to try and scam an Ancient Dragon of any color.

Jay R

2014-07-14, 07:48 AM

I would think the oracle would be somewhat smarter than to try and scam an Ancient Dragon of any color.

He didn't try to scam Roy either, with his question about Girard's gate and Kraagor's, when the Oracle knew the true answer was Azure City. He tried to get Roy to ask a better question. But he was then forced to answer the actual question that was asked.

Keltest

2014-07-14, 07:52 AM

He didn't try to scam Roy either, with his question about Girard's gate and Kraagor's, when the Oracle knew the true answer was Azure City. He tried to get Roy to ask a better question. But he was then forced to answer the actual question that was asked.

So? He understood what Roy wanted but was obligated not to give it to him. As opposed to doing it deliberately, like he did the first time, or he does in the hypothetical dragon situation.

Jay R

2014-07-14, 08:23 AM

So? He understood what Roy wanted but was obligated not to give it to him. As opposed to doing it deliberately, like he did the first time, or he does in the hypothetical dragon situation.

In the hypothetical dragon situation above, if he is asked your question "Does my son's killer have any other enemies?", the only correct answer is "Yes."

He is obligated not to answer any other question he wasn't asked, like "Who are my son's killer's other enemies?"

Keltest

2014-07-14, 08:32 AM

In the hypothetical dragon situation above, if he is asked your question "Does my son's killer have any other enemies?", the only correct answer is "Yes."

He is obligated not to answer any other question he wasn't asked, like "Who are my son's killer's other enemies?"

He isn't bound to answer questions to the letter of the law, he is allowed room for his own spin on the answers (except that Roy removed that room with his overly specific question). He didn't tell Haley "Youll get your voice back by being confronted by Elan about kissing Nale." for example, even though that is technically the "correct" answer. Durkon was clearly asking for a date or some sort of timeline on his return home, but that isn't what he got.

Kish

2014-07-14, 09:24 AM

Morty

2014-07-14, 09:37 AM

I'm honestly not sure if Xykon would count as V's 'enemy', given his complete ignorance of the elf's existence.

Keltest

2014-07-14, 09:39 AM

Durkon seemed quite happy with what he got, actually.

And I'm not seeing a meaningful difference between the Oracle hypothetically being able to say, "Yes, your son's killer's employer's enemies include an omnicidal lich" (and have the Ancient Black Dragon remember it past the memory charm) and the Oracle hypothetically being able to say, "Of those two locations, Xykon will be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate first, but will be near Soon's Gate before that" and have Roy remember it past the memory charm.

It doesn't matter that Durkon liked the answer, the point is it was clearly not way he expected to receive the information. The oracle is not limited to a very literal answer except with very specific questions.

As for the difference, one is the Oracle elaborating on the answer to the question asked, and one is him blatantly going around the question to give more information. Plus, he likes the black dragon, but not Roy.

Jay R

2014-07-14, 09:53 AM

It doesn't matter that Durkon liked the answer, the point is it was clearly not way he expected to receive the information.

I don't remember Durkon saying or implying that, and it appeared to be exactly what he wanted to hear. Could you please cite the line you base this conclusion on?

It wasn't what I expected, but that's not the same thing.

The oracle is not limited to a very literal answer except with very specific questions.

I guess our real difference is that I think a clearly yes/no question is quite specific.

Plus, he likes the black dragon, ...

Again, could you cite the basis for this?

Kish

2014-07-14, 09:56 AM

Keltest

2014-07-14, 10:23 AM

It would be more relevant to cite the basis for it mattering. That is, the line on which Keltest is basing his apparent presumption that the Oracle's manifest desire to give Roy an actually helpful answer was not real, or otherwise that giving Roy a helpful answer is something he would have been able to do, if he "liked" Roy.

As far as I can tell, Keltest's entire argument here is that throwing in a dozen extra words for the ancient black dragon is just different. Somehow.

Im not surprised you cant tell, you seem to have a habit of strawmanning your opposition. And yes, im rather frustrated by that right now. :smallannoyed:

The oracle clearly does not like Roy. He has flat out said as much. When he interacted with the ABD he was quite respectful though, so whether or not he is willing to go out of his way to help her, he is certainly not going to antagonize her by conning her out of her money or anything like that. The Oracle has also shown an unwillingness to reveal information not directly paid for and asked in a question; This is the stated purpose of the memory charm, and he has no reason to lie about it since the people he tells wont remember what he said anyway! So the difference is that the Oracle is giving the Dragon the information she wants by not being deliberately obtuse, versus with Roy he was NOT giving the information because doing so would violate his apparent code of conduct.

orrion

2014-07-14, 11:25 AM

As for the difference, one is the Oracle elaborating on the answer to the question asked, and one is him blatantly going around the question to give more information. Plus, he likes the black dragon, but not Roy.

The Oracle likes the black dragon? He calls the ABD "madam" and explains the delay (628) but other than that single panel we never see them interact. It's probably fair to say the Oracle treats dragons with respect because he's their Oracle and gets his powers from their goddess, and that he likes reptiles better than humans (based on his insulting manner toward the party sometimes), but there's nothing to indicate that he likes the ABD specifically, or cares for her cause more than another.

Keltest

2014-07-14, 11:29 AM

The Oracle likes the black dragon? He calls the ABD "madam" and explains the delay (628) but other than that single panel we never see them interact. It's probably fair to say the Oracle treats dragons with respect because he's their Oracle and gets his powers from their goddess, and that he likes reptiles better than humans (based on his insulting manner toward the party sometimes), but there's nothing to indicate that he likes the ABD specifically, or cares for her cause more than another.

ok, Like was a very non-specific word, but you understood my point. Her good opinion matters to him for one reason or another.

Jasdoif

2014-07-14, 11:51 AM

The oracle clearly does not like Roy. He has flat out said as much. When he interacted with the ABD he was quite respectful though, so whether or not he is willing to go out of his way to help her, he is certainly not going to antagonize her by conning her out of her money or anything like that. The Oracle has also shown an unwillingness to reveal information not directly paid for and asked in a question; This is the stated purpose of the memory charm, and he has no reason to lie about it since the people he tells wont remember what he said anyway! So the difference is that the Oracle is giving the Dragon the information she wants by not being deliberately obtuse, versus with Roy he was NOT giving the information because doing so would violate his apparent code of conduct.I think you're overestimating how much influence the Oracle has over the trance-induced answers he gives. I'd expect him to be able to avoid getting chewed up into tiny pieces in the future (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html), if he had the capability of choosing how oblique his answers were.

Keltest

2014-07-14, 12:01 PM

I think you're overestimating how much influence the Oracle has over the trance-induced answers he gives. I'd expect him to be able to avoid getting chewed up into tiny pieces in the future (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html), if he had the capability of choosing how oblique his answers were.

That may be an interpretation difference. He is cavalier enough about his fortune telling that it seems to be that the trance is more a formality to get around the memory charm rather than something specifically necessary to his ability to see the future. For example, he was able to know what Haley was saying by looking into the future when it was translated, but we never saw him trance.

Jasdoif

2014-07-14, 12:40 PM

That may be an interpretation difference. He is cavalier enough about his fortune telling that it seems to be that the trance is more a formality to get around the memory charm rather than something specifically necessary to his ability to see the future. For example, he was able to know what Haley was saying by looking into the future when it was translated, but we never saw him trance.The trance isn't necessary for the Oracle to see into the future, no.

But my theory is that, as a specific quirk of the trance, that the answers given in trance speech bubbles (trance answers? transers?) come directly from Tiamat. It would explain why he could foresee being torn apart without being able to prevent it through his own wording, why he didn't simply repeat himself in the trance here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html), why the memory charm has an exception for those answers (someone or something had to put that exception into the memory charm, after all)...and why the trance exists in the first place.

Jay R

2014-07-14, 12:53 PM

ok, Like was a very non-specific word, but you understood my point. Her good opinion matters to him for one reason or another.

Yes, we understand it. It's just an unprovable guess, based on no actual evidence.

The only statement we have from the Oracle about providing extra service is, "You'll each be allowed one question. Everything else about this trip will fade from your memory. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)" From this I conclude that even if the Oracle went beyond the question's answer to name Vaarsuvius's foes, the information would have faded from the ABD's memory.

The Oracle also said, "Customer service is based on the assumption of WANTING people to return (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0332.html)." From this I conclude that he doesn't even want to provide extra service.

Besides, the Oracle already knew that he would not give the ABD more information. He told Haley that he could look into the future and read the compiled books (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html), and he showed that he had done so, to be able to understand her. From this I conclude that the Oracle didn't give more information than the ABD is shown to have.

Now, I have provided specific evidence to back up my viewpoint. Do you have any specific evidence to cite to back your viewpoint that the Oracle would volunteer to provide more information, which we have already seen that the ABD doesn't have?

Keltest

2014-07-14, 01:10 PM

Yes, we understand it. It's just an unprovable guess, based on no actual evidence.

The only statement we have from the Oracle about providing extra service is, "You'll each be allowed one question. Everything else about this trip will fade from your memory. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)" From this I conclude that even if the Oracle went beyond the question's answer to name Vaarsuvius's foes, the information would have faded from the ABD's memory.

The Oracle also said, "Customer service is based on the assumption of WANTING people to return (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0332.html)." From this I conclude that he doesn't even want to provide extra service.

Besides, the Oracle already knew that he would not give the ABD more information. He told Haley that he could look into the future and read the compiled books (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html), and he showed that he had done so, to be able to understand her. From this I conclude that the Oracle didn't give more information than the ABD is shown to have.

Now, I have provided specific evidence to back up my viewpoint. Do you have any specific evidence to cite to back your viewpoint that the Oracle would volunteer to provide more information, which we have already seen that the ABD doesn't have?

Yes. With about the same degree of specificity as yours. Which I have provided. Your first point is a blatant assumption that he cannot answer "Yes, there is a lich and a goblin who he considers his enemies." to the question "Does my son's killer have any other enemies." Your second point... is valid, granted. Your third point doesn't matter, because this isn't about whether or not she asked the question, but what would happen if she were to seek out help to get revenge on V, and thus its assumed that she is looking.

orrion

2014-07-14, 01:18 PM

ok, Like was a very non-specific word, but you understood my point. Her good opinion matters to him for one reason or another.

Far as I can tell, the ABD got what she wanted.

From Jay R's link, we can see what standard procedure is. One question, one answer. Granted, there might be a different standard procedure for worshipers of Tiamat or dragons in particular, but there's no evidence of that I can see.

ABD's question was obviously along the lines of "What is the name of the creature that killed my son?" for which the Oracle's answer would have been along the lines of "Vaarsuvius the elf."

Also, again, the ABD didn't need help, or even want it. Heck, she tells V that she already scoped out the house twice. She could have taken her revenge at any point, but apparently felt that it would be all the better if V knew who killed his family, why, and that it was happening at that moment with him powerless to do anything about it.

The actual revenge part of killing V's family? ABD needed no help whatsoever with that.

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-07-14, 02:52 PM

Doesn't matter. That was the exact, complete answer to the question as phrased.

Alright, fair enough. The brute force route might work, as demonstrated by Roy. Or the dragon would just ask "Who are the other enemies of my son's killer?", which asks to name people, not just confirm their existence.

Jay R

2014-07-14, 04:54 PM

Alright, fair enough. The brute force route might work, as demonstrated by Roy. Or the dragon would just ask "Who are the other enemies of my son's killer?", which asks to name people, not just confirm their existence.

Exactly. My original point wasn't that the information was impossible to find. It was to phrase the question better.

None of which gets around the hard fact that the question asked was "Who killed my son?" Any question about V's enemies would have been a second question.

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-07-14, 04:57 PM

Exactly. My original point wasn't that the information was impossible to find. It was to phrase the question better.

None of which gets around the hard fact that the question asked was "Who killed my son?" Any question about V's enemies would have been a second question.

I was agreeing with you there, that the question wasn't specific enough and that the Dragon would have to ask the better question instead. Sorry if that was unclear.

Synar

2014-07-15, 10:15 AM

I believe the strip actually shows us that the "trance" is just presentation (and a way to bypass the charm) when the oracle "transe" to give the information about the Belkerer death when no question was asked (and it was certainly not Tiamat answering).

TurtlesAWD

2014-07-15, 12:58 PM

Questions of this sort always put me in mind of this article. (http://badassdigest.com/2012/10/30/film-crit-hulk-smash-hulk-vs.-plot-holes-and-movie-logic/), which is a good if long read, and is also in all caps since that's apparently the author's style. I wouldn't say it perfectly matches the OP's intent in asking the question this thread poses but I think there's some cross over.

I also thought, reading through this thread, that it might be worth pointing out that True Res as a device doesn't ruin "stories" as a generality. It would likely have a negative impact on this particular story, certainly, but the reason for that is a combination of tone, goal, drama, plot direction, etc. For a story with a different set of rules, investing the reader in a different kind of character development, pulling drama and suspense out of different parts of life, True Res could work just fine. Planescape: Torment certainly didn't suffer from having a protagonist that came back from the dead on a regular basis. As long as a story acknowledges how True Res would change the behavior and interests of the people present in it, it can create drama by exploring what things like war, or religion, or the legal system would look like in that sort of world.

rodneyAnonymous

2014-07-17, 01:28 PM

I think you're overestimating how much influence the Oracle has over the trance-induced answers he gives. I'd expect him to be able to avoid getting chewed up into tiny pieces in the future (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html), if he had the capability of choosing how oblique his answers were.

I disagree. He can see the future, which involves him getting chewed up into tiny pieces, as far as we know regardless of how he phrases his truthful answer. (Importantly, note that he failed to avoid getting killed by Belkar, after both giving an obtuse answer to the question, and further attempts at prevarication. "It was worth a shot tho-...") The results of that thought experiment do not strongly support the hypothesis that the Oracle has limited control over his answers; there are other possible (maybe even probable) explanations. The only certain restriction on his answer is that it must be true; I don't see why he can't have complete control over it, besides that.

137beth

2014-07-18, 07:26 PM

I was scrolling down the page and thought I saw "Red Dragon and Black Cloak":smallfrown:
Anyways,

I disagree. He can see the future, which involves him getting chewed up into tiny pieces, as far as we know regardless of how he phrases his truthful answer. (Importantly, note that he failed to avoid getting killed by Belkar, after both giving an obtuse answer to the question, and further attempts at prevarication. "It was worth a shot tho-...") The results of that thought experiment do not strongly support the hypothesis that the Oracle has limited control over his answers; there are other possible (maybe even probable) explanations. The only certain restriction on his answer is that it must be true; I don't see why he can't have complete control over it, besides that.

That's what I think as well.