Recent Pathfinder FAQ Rulings: Tier 0 Paragon Surge is Dead

[grarrrg]

There are 4 recently added FAQ rulings to share.
We'll start with the 2 that are "meh".


Can I spontaneously cast spells from one of my classes using a different class’s spell slots?
No. Of course you can't. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9s55) Stupid question. Moving on.


If I temporarily gain an ability that is limited in its uses per day, am I limited in my overall uses of that ability if I can temporarily gain it more than once?
"Yes. ... For example, (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9s4x)if you have an ability that allows you to gain the Stunning Fist feat for a limited period of time and you use it 3 times. Those uses count against your total number of uses should you temporarily gain Stunning Fist again later that day."
Fair enough. Although I'm sure there's something out there that's poorly worded enough to not work with this ruling.

Paizo finally broke out the Nerf Bat, there are not one but TWO new FAQ's that shut down the Tier 0 Oracle/Sorcerer use of Paragon Surge (amongst other things):

Can I cast paragon surge multiple times in a day to gain different benefits?
"No. The first time each day (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gh#v5748eaic9s4y)that you cast paragon surge, you must select a feat and make all the associated choices that come with it. Once that choice is made, it is set for the day and additional castings must make the exact same decisions."
So if a Sorcerer cast Paragon Surge for Expanded Arcana and chose, say, Overland Flight (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/all-spells/o/overland-flight), then for the rest of the day ALL uses of Paragon Surge would net him Overland Flight.
This still allows a Sorcerer access to up to Two Spells he doesn't otherwise know each day, but ONLY those same two spells for the rest of the day.


And the Eldritch Heritage > Arcane killer:

If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?
I'll spare you the long winded explanation (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9s54), but basically to cast a spell it needs to be Known AND on your List.
The only ability I'm aware of that specifies 'adds to known' but not 'adds to list' would be using Eldritch Heritage to access the Arcane Bloodline. It still works for Non-Sorcerer's, but ONLY to grab spells that are already on your Class's List.


Discuss.

[kardar233]

Well, it's an improvement. Getting rid of the double-spell-list Oracle is good, but a Sorcerer or Oracle shouldn't need to Paragon Surge for a spell more than once a day (especially as a half-elf sorcerer can get the Human FCB) so the change to only having one handy spell per day is not that significant.

Also, at higher levels Paragon Surge is also used for downtime spells that you don't want to spend a spell known on, like Planar Binding or Simulacrum, and that's a use that's unaffected by the change.

[Raven777]

To shuffle your Paragon Surge feats as a Sorcerer, Emergency Attunement (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Emergency%20Attunement) says "hi".

[deuxhero]

Not so big on how it broke EH taken naturally (kinda like how crit ranges don't stack in 3.5 AND they made Vorpal natural 20 only). Others were pretty needed though.

Do note that Razmiran Priest is still tier 0ish, it's just contained by very restrictive fluff so it doesn't show up in PFS and get Paizo's attention.

[137beth]

It seems typical of PDT FAQs. There is a very specific, contained balance issue and they make a vague, sweeping errata with loads of possibilities for unintended consequences.

[andreww]

To shuffle your Paragon Surge feats as a Sorcerer, Emergency Attunement (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Emergency%20Attunement) says "hi".
The was confirmed to not work. The faqrratta specifies that the choice is fixed for the day and cannot be changed.

Expanded Arcana is still giving you 1-2 spells per day for downtime activities which is more than enough to do whatever the hell you want with a bit of prep. Animating undead, planar binding, creating simulacrum armies, building fortresses from wall of stone/iron, creating explosive lava bombs with shrink item, fabricate abuse, layering your home with symbols. You can still do all of these provided you are happy to focus on one task per day.

[Psyren]

They move slowly, but I'm happy they're not afraid to poke CharOp in the eye every now and then, so I say kudos. Oracle needed the nerf.


It seems typical of PDT FAQs. There is a very specific, contained balance issue and they make a vague, sweeping errata with loads of possibilities for unintended consequences.

They seem to make the rulings broad because they want them to be as forward-looking as possible. So they address "abilities that add X to Y" instead of errata-ing Paragon Surge specifically.

[Kudaku]

I'm happy with this change - it leaves a lot of utility in Paragon Surge for spontaneous casters (2 custom spells per day means they can pick up circumstantial spells like Fabricate, Remove Disease or Teleport), bringing them closer to prepared casters without letting them run completely nuts.

I find it unfortunate that it's all tied up in a spell that's limited to half-elves though.

[Alleran]

On the bright side, if you're planning on playing an Arcanist, there's Quick Study that can/will do for them more or less the same thing as what Paragon Surge did for Sorcerers and Oracles. If you're planning on playing an Arcanist (and why not, besides flavour?).


I find it unfortunate that it's all tied up in a spell that's limited to half-elves though.
And anybody who can get access to Racial Heritage. So half-orcs, humans and aasimar with Scion of Humanity are all valid options.

[Kudaku]

And anybody who can get access to Racial Heritage. So half-orcs, humans and aasimar with Scion of Humanity are all valid options.

As well as gillmen with the Throwback trait. But that's still only 5 out of ~40 possible races. It's coincidentally also the five races that can get the extra spell FCB.

[Oazard]

The was confirmed to not work. The faqrratta specifies that the choice is fixed for the day and cannot be changed.


Yeah, but no, designer posts on the Paizo forum are not RAW, only RAI (and Mark Seifer always says his answers on the Paizo forum are his personal interpretation). The FAQ specifies the feat choice is set for the day and only additional casting of the spell must make the same choice, not your Emegerncy Attunement feat. :smallamused:

[Killer Angel]

This still allows a Sorcerer access to up to Two Spells he doesn't otherwise know each day, but ONLY those same two spells for the rest of the day.


Paragon Surge is still a very powerful choice, but now a little less game breaking.

[AlsoD]

Paragon Surge is still a very powerful choice, but now a little less game breaking.

They could at least make it's duration hours/level or 24 hours then, it'd make the ruling make a bit more sense.

[Squirrel_Dude]

There are players on the Paizo boards who are voicing their discontent about the decision with the FAQ. The loudest seem to either have been complaints about how the change isn't an FAQ but stealth errata (fair), or players, worried about the upcoming Arcanist, that the Sorcerer has been too badly defanged to stand up as viable next to the new class.

In general I don't mind the change, as it was a needlessly powerful ability. I'd rather have sorcerers in my games than Wizards, anyway. That there are actually people clamoring for the sorcerer to get a buff amuses me.


As well as gillmen with the Throwback trait. But that's still only 5 out of ~40 possible races. It's coincidentally also the five races that can get the extra spell FCB.And five races that can have potential racial bonuses to Charisma. I admittedly find it odd how that worked out.

[Raven777]

Though I kind of agree with the FAQ/errata/nerf, I find the thing makes the spell kind of clumsy. Are there other examples of "choice of effect" spells that end up locked for the day after being cast once? This feels weird, especially on a spontaneous caster.

From the onset, the spell would have been better as a feat : "Once a day, you can surge with ancestral power, temporarily embodying all the strengths of both elvenkind and humankind simultaneously, and transforming into a paragon of both races. For one minute per Hid Dice, you receive a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence and are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites, chosen when you use this feat." Then any class could have had access to it, regardless of spell casting. Then again, Paizo doesn't seem to keen on "power" feats either. And God forbid mundanes can have nice things.

[Urpriest]

Though I kind of agree with the FAQ/errata/nerf, I find the thing makes the spell kind of clumsy. Are there other examples of "choice of effect" spells that end up locked for the day after being cast once? This feels weird, especially on a spontaneous caster.


I don't know a lot about the basis for Pathfinder's "FAQ is RAW" situation, so maybe this isn't valid. But if Pathfinder FAQ is still supposed to be based on the rules, and is RAW merely because the interpretation of the rules it provides is supposed to always be correct, then we've got a problem here. Because if the whole "the effect is locked for the day" thing is supposed to be the correct interpretation of the text of Paragon Surge, then other spells with similar text should be interpreted that way as well. The only spell I can find with the exact same wording ("chosen when you cast this spell") is Lend Judgement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/lend-judgment), but there may be other spells close enough to be hit by the ruling as well.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I don't know a lot about the basis for Pathfinder's "FAQ is RAW" situation, so maybe this isn't valid. But if Pathfinder FAQ is still supposed to be based on the rules, and is RAW merely because the interpretation of the rules it provides is supposed to always be correct, then we've got a problem here. Because if the whole "the effect is locked for the day" thing is supposed to be the correct interpretation of the text of Paragon Surge, then other spells with similar text should be interpreted that way as well. The only spell I can find with the exact same wording ("chosen when you cast this spell") is Lend Judgement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/lend-judgment), but there may be other spells close enough to be hit by the ruling as well. According to one of the Devs: FAQs are not only supposed to clear up grey areas in the text, but also be errata before proper errata can be released.


Mark Seifter (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r8xa&page=2?Paragon-Surge-FAQ#73)
Guys, as you can see from where Joe quoted me above, the point of the FAQ is not only to clarify but also in some cases to sort "ready an action for errata" if you will. Official errata can't appear unless there is a reprint. That's a rule that comes from higher than us. But sometimes, a book takes 3 years to sell out or never sells out. And so it can be helpful to have an FAQ in the meantime. FAQs absolutely are allowed to contradict the original text. A FAQ can be good or bad, but it can't be "wrong".

It's basically a complication that arises because Paizo has the worst errata policy I can possibly imagine for a company that runs their own reference site. Just so everyone is clear.

The FAQs are not linked anywhere, and cannot be currently found on Paizo's own reference site (this is problem they have only just recently announced they are looking into).
Errata changes are not noted or referenced on the reference site. If things change, then they change. There is no alert, that I am aware of, to these changes.
Errata is only released when a new edition of the book is coming out. In other words: If a book you like is filled with errors but didn't sell well enough to require a reprint, you're apparently screwed and will never get errata for it.
To make up for the self-imposed delay on when Errata can be released, FAQs basically have to serve as a tool for the devs to make patchwork changes when problems are severe enough.

[Psyren]

The alternatives are: errata each book once and never look at them again (aka the WotC approach); errata and reprint every time a change or clarification is made via FAQ, leading to mass confusion and possible bankruptcy; or never issue errata at all. No, I think this is far from the "worst" scenario.

Also, a dev (I forget which) mentioned that FAQ rulings are also occasionally a way to get a lot of feedback on a change very quickly, sort of a mini playtest. This puts changes under a lot of eyes in an easy-to-reverse/modify format before they become full-blown errata codified in a subsequent print run. which is much harder to alter or go back on.

[Squirrel_Dude]

The alternatives are: errata each book once and never look at them again (aka the WotC approach) errata and reprint every time a change or clarification is made via FAQ, leading to mass confusion and possible bankruptcy; or never issue errata at all. No, I think this is far from the "worst" scenario.You're right, it is not the worst situation, and I apologize for the unnecessary hyperbole. Those those are certainly some worse options.


Nonetheless, the fact that they tie errata to when they are reprinting a book became asinine and backwards the moment the company began to release errata as .pdfs and started their own reference website. Here is a compromise I would more than willingly accept, and I think would be a significant improvement over the current model:

Errata a book every time there a significant problem comes to light, and then update the errata .pdf that everyone can download. This does not require a reprint, and they already do this for old books. Continue to use FAQs for clarification. In short: completely divorce from the idea that you are editing a book, and accept that they are patching a game.

But you know what? Game companies don't patch their games every time a problem arises. Only when there are significant problems, will they patch their game for a single or small set of issues. Even then it can often take longer than a week. So let's compromise further. How about Paizo simply have errata for products come out every 6 months, or some other relatively large window. Judging from the amount of content they produce, every 4 months might even be too small a window. Nonetheless, moving to a system where GMs and players could expect for there to be .pdfs with changes to their books on a set schedule would be superior to the current system where we have to hope for proper errata to come out at some point.


That compromise aside, the current state of Paizo's PRD, in regards to the FAQs and errata is simply negligent. The moment that the FAQ was used as a way for the developers to do errata, it became inexcusable for that information to not be on the PRD.

[Psyren]

Magician Bard is broken now (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ra5a?Whats-the-point-of-Magicians-Expanded-Repertoire#1)

"...unless they are added by a class feature of that same class."

Expanded Repertoire is a magician bard class feature. Seems like it still works to me.

[deuxhero]

Overlooked that bit (and deleted my post before seeing you replied here too).

Doesn't that actually restore IEH for ONLY Paragon Surge? Spells are after all a class feature.

[Psyren]

Overlooked that bit (and deleted my post before seeing you replied here too).

Doesn't that actually restore IEH for ONLY Paragon Surge? Spells are after all a class feature.

"Bard spells" are a bard class feature. Non-bard spells are not - you need a separate class feature (like Expanded Repertoire) to get them.

Paragon Surge and IEH are also not class features - one is a spell and one is a feat.

[deuxhero]

Seems a little weird to argue that something gotten through a class feature isn't "added by a class feature of that same class".

[Psyren]

Seems a little weird to argue that something gotten through a class feature isn't "added by a class feature of that same class".

It's too far removed, is the problem. ER itself, the class feature, adds the spells to your spells known and therefore your list. Your argument regarding the bard's "spells" class feature, basically gives you a spell which then gives you access to a feat which then adds additional spells to your spells known. If you're willing to dig down that far, the FAQ becomes meaningless because you can consider anything a class feature at that point.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The was confirmed to not work. The faqrratta specifies that the choice is fixed for the day and cannot be changed.It actually says "Once that choice is made, it is set for the day and additional castings must make the exact same decisions." So, you cast the spell, make the same decisions, and then specifically alter those decisions with a feat.