PDA

View Full Version : Pathfinder The Elemental Warrior (P.E.A.C.H)



Chronos Flame
2014-07-12, 10:16 PM
ELEMENTAL WARRIOR

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Elemental Warriors have the following game statistics.
Abilities: An Elemental Warrior is able to command and coordinate with his aspect of nature, and to call upon that power she uses her charisma. As all fighters, she also has plenty of use for a moderate constitution as well as either strength or dexterity.
Alignment: Any, though an Elemental warrior usually tends away from chaos due to the discipline in learning any of the elemental forms.
Hit Die: d10
Starting Age: As Bard
Starting Gold: 4d6 × 10 gp (average 140 gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.

Class Skills
All Elemental Warriors consider the following class skills: Craft(Int), Knowledge(Arcana)(Int), Knowledge(History)(Int), Knowledge(Planes)(Int), Profession(Wis), and Survival(Wis).
Additional skills are considered class skills depending on the Elemental Warrior's Elemental Form. (See Elemental Form)

Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier

ELEMENTAL WARRIOR


Level
BAB
Good Save
Bad Saves
Special


1st
+1
+2
+0
Elemental Form, Form Pool, Form Feat


2nd
+2
+3
+0
Planar Bond +1, Form Art 1


3rd
+3
+3
+1
Form Feat


4th
+4
+4
+1
Planar Bond +2


5th
+5
+4
+1
Form Movement 1


6th
+6/+1
+5
+2
Planar Bond +3, Form Art 2


7th
+7/+2
+5
+2
Form Feat


8th
+8/+3
+6
+2
Planar Bond +4


9th
+9/+4
+6
+3
Form Movement 2


10th
+10/+5
+7
+3
Planar Bond +5, Form Art 3


11th
+11/+6/+1
+7
+3
Form Feat


12th
+12/+7/+2
+8
+4
Planar Bond +6


13th
+13/+8/+3
+8
+4
Form Movement 3


14th
+14/+9/+4
+9
+4
Planar Bond +7, Form Art 4


15th
+15/+10/+5
+9
+5
Form Feat


16th
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+5
Planar Bond +8


17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+5
Form Movement 4


18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+6
Planar Bond +9, Form Art 5


19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+6
Form Feat


20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+6
Planar Bond +10, Form Mastery



Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Elemental Warrior.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Elemental Warriors are proficient with all simple weapons as well as additional weapons as determined by their Elemental Form. They are proficient with light armor but not with shields.


Elemental Form (Ex):
An Elemental Warrior is defined at least as much by her chosen element as by the class itself. At first level an Elemental Warrior must select Air, Earth, Fire, Water, or Wood. Once chosen this cannot be changed. This choice determines what your Form Pool is, what it can be used for, additional weapon proficiencies, additional class skills, what sort of Form Movement you get, what your primary save is, and of course what element you gain abilities from when you gain your next Form Art. The skills, proficiencies, and good save (the other two use the bad saves column) are covered here, and all else is addressed in their respective sections.

Air: All martial weapons with reach.
Earth: None
Fire: All martial light weapons
Water: All martial two-handed slashing weapons
Wood: All martial ranged weapons

Air: Diplomacy(Cha), Escape Artist(Dex), Perception(Wis), Ride(Dex), Sense Motive(Wis)
Earth: Climb(Str), Escape Artist(Dex), Heal(Wis), Intimidate(Cha), Sense Motive(Wis)
Fire: Acrobatics(Dex), Bluff(Cha), Diplomacy(Cha), Disguise(Cha), Escape Artist(Dex), Intimidate(Cha), Perform(Cha)
Water: Acrobatics(Dex), Bluff(Cha), Disguise(Cha), Ride(Dex), Sense Motive(Wis), Slight of Hand(Dex), Swim(Str)
Wood: Acrobatics(Dex), Climb(Str), Handle Animal(Cha), Heal(Wis), Perception(Wis), Ride(Dex), Stealth(Dex)


Air: Reflex
Earth: Fortitude
Fire: Reflex
Water: Fortitude
Wood: Will

Form Pool (Ex):
At first level an Elemental Warrior gains a pool of points that are used both for passive and activated effects based on their elemental form.
An Elemental Warrior begins each combat with none of these points and has a max pool equal to 1/2 her class level + her charisma modifier.
At tenth level an Elemental Warrior begins each combat with a number of points equal to her charisma modifier.

The name of these points and the way they are gained differs depending on the Elemental Warrior's Elemental Form as follows.

Air-”Zephyr Points”: A Zephyr Point is gained at the beginning of the Air Warrior's turn if she made an attack of opportunity or took an action that replaces an attack of opportunity since the end of her last turn.
Earth-”Mountain Points”: A Mountain Point is gained at the beginning of the Earth Warrior's turn if she was the target of an attack, spell, or combat maneuver since the end of her last turn.
Fire-”Flicker Points”: A Flicker Point is gained at the end of the Fire Warriors turn if she acts differently during her turn than she did the previous turn.
Water-”Flow Points”: A Flow Point is gained at the end of the Water Warrior's turn if he moves at least half his speed on that turn.
Wood-”Root Points”: A Root Point is gained at the end of the Wood Warrior's turn if he does not move more than a 5-foot adjustment on that turn.

Clarification on Flicker Points: “Acts differently” is a touchy idea, but for clarification similar is the same usually. Moving half speed or full speed does not count as different. Moving before an attack is not different from after. Making a full attack as Main-Main-Off is the same as Off-Main-Main and Main-Off-Off and so on. However switching weapons and making attacks is different, making a different combat maneuver counts, and making a different number of attacks or splitting your attacks between multiple enemies counts as different. This may seem complicated but I suggest it be made very clear between players and GMs.

Form Feat :
At first level an Elemental Warrior gains a specific feat depending on her chosen Elemental Form. At third level and every four levels thereafter she may select a feat from a specific list again depending on her chosen form. She must meet the prerequisites to select any feat gained this way. She also counts as a fighter equal to her Elemental Warrior level when selecting feats that apply to a single weapon.

Air:
At first level an Air Warrior gains Combat Reflexes.
At third level and beyond she may choose from the following: Bodyguard, Combat Patrol, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus(Any spear or polearm), Weapon Specialization(Any spear or polearm), Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization. (List incomplete. Suggestions?)

Earth:
At first level an Earth Warrior gains Improved Unarmed Strike.
At third level and beyond she may choose from the following: Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte, Deflect Arrows, PErfect Strike, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus(unarmed strike), Weapon Specialization(unarmed strike), Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization. (List incomplete. Suggestions?)

Fire:
At first level a Fire Warrior gains Two-Weapon Fighting.
At third level and beyond she may choose from the following: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Rend, Two Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Feint, Double Slice, Weapon Focus(Any light melee, double, or thrown weapon), Weapon Specialization(Any light melee, double, or thrown weapon), Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization. (List incomplete. Suggestions?)

Water:
At first level a Water Warrior gains Power Attack.
At third level and beyond he may choose from the following: Cleave, Great Cleave, Dodge, Mobility, Spring AttackShield of Swings, Weapon Focus(Any two-handed slashing weapon), Weapon Specialization(Any two-handed slashing weapon), Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization. (List incomplete. Suggestions?)

Wood:
At first level a Wood Warrior gains Point-Blank Shot.
At third level and beyond he may choose from the following: Precise Shot, Clustered Shots, Impact Critical Shot, Weapon Focus(Any ranged weapon), Weapon Specialization(Any ranged weapon), Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization. (List incomplete. Suggestions?)

Planar Bond (Ex):
At second level, an Elemental Warrior has a certain understanding of denizens of her respective elemental planes, as well as the element itself. She gains a bonus equal to half her Elemental Warrior level to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive checks made while dealing with creatures of their element's subtype. (In my setting creatures will be given the “Wood” subtype. If not used in that setting it applies to intelligent animals and forest creatures such as wood nymphs)
She also gains this as a bonus to any survival rolls made to survive in a terrain primarily of her element or to withstand hardships caused by her element.

Form Art (Ex):
Beginning at second level and again every four levels thereafter an Elemental Warrior gains passive and/or active abilities based around her form points. All abilities gained are (Ex) unless listed otherwise.

Zephyr Art 1:
At second level an Air Warrior gains a bonus to all combat maneuver checks made to disarm and trip equal to half her current reserve of Zephyr Points.
As a swift action she may spend a Zephyr Point to threaten all squares adjacent to her in addition to her normal threat area for the round.
Zephyr Art 2:
At sixth level an Air Warrior gains a bonus to the attack and damage roll of all attacks of opportunity equal to half her current reserve of Zephyr Points.
She may make an additional number of attacks of opportunity per round equal to her current pool of Zephyr Points.
Zephyr Art 3:
At tenth level an Air Warrior gains a bonus to the attack and damage roll of all readied attacks equal to half her current reserve of Zephyr Points.
She may spend a Zephyr Point any time she would get to make an attack of opportunity to make a disarm attempt instead.
Zephyr Art 4:
At fourteenth level an Air Warrior instead adds her full reserve of Zephyr Points as a bonus to disarm, trip, attacks of opportunity, and readied attacks.
She also only loses one Zephyr Point on any turn in which she does not make an attack of opportunity.
Zephyr Art 5:
At eighteenth level an Air Warrior may spend a Zephyr Point any time she would make an attack of opportunity to instead make a trip attempt. If successful she may then make a single attack against the tripped creature.

Mountain Art 1:
At second level an Earth Warrior gains a bonus to CMD when a creature tries to grapple, trip, bull rush, or drag her equal to half her current reserve of Mountain Points.
She also treats her unarmed strike damage as a monk of equal level.
Mountain Art 2:
At sixth level an Earth Warrior gains a bonus to natural armor equal to half her current reserve of Mountain Points.
As a swift action she may spend a Mountain Point to cause a single creature within line of sight to take a penalty to its attack rolls made against any creature other than the Earth Warrior equal to her current reserve of Mountain Points for one round.
Mountain Art 3:
At tenth level an Earth Warrior gains DR/- equal to half her current reserve of Mountain Points.
She may spend a Mountain point any time an adjacent ally is hit with an attack to grant them her DR.
Mountain Art 4:
At fourteenth level an Earth Warrior instead adds her full reserve of Mountain Points to CMD, natural armor, and DR/-.
She also only loses one Mountain Point on any turn in which she is not targeted by an attack, spell, or combat maneuver.
Mountain Art 5:
At eighteenth level an Earth Warrior can spend a Mountain Point to negate an exhausted, fatigued, paralyzed, sickened, staggered, or stunned condition that would be inflicted upon her, or to delay falling unconscious or dying for a single round.

Flicker Art 1:
At second level a Fire Warrior gains a bonus to attack rolls when she makes more than one attack in a turn equal to half her current reserve of Flicker Points.
She may spend a Flicker Point as a swift action to make an additional attack at her highest base attack bonus when making a full attack.
Flicker Art 2:
At sixth level a Fire Warrior gains a bonus to damage rolls when she makes more than one attack in a turn equal to half her current reserve of Flicker Points.
As long as she has at least one Flicker Point she lessens the penalty for duel wielding by 1.
She may spend a Flicker Point as a swift action when she hits a creature with both her main and off hand weapon to cause her target to start bleeding. The creature hit takes 2 points of damage at the beginning of every turn for each attack that she damaged it with as part of that full attack. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC20 heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. At eleventh level this increases to 3 bleeding damage per attack. At sixteenth level it increases to 4.
Flicker Art 3:
At tenth level a Fire Warrior gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to half her current reserve of Flicker Points.
As long as she has at least one Flicker Point she lessens the penalty for duel wielding by an additional 1.
She may spend a Flicker point as a swift action when she hits a creature with both her main and off hand weapon to attempt a disarm or dirty trick with a bonus to her CMB equal to the number of attacks she hit the creature with that turn.
Flicker Art 4:
At fourteenth level a Fire Warrior instead adds her full reserve of Flicker Points to attack, damage, and AC.
As long as she has at least one Flicker Point she can make one attack with her on and off hand weapon when making an attack of opportunity.
She may spend a Flicker point as a swift action when making an attack against a creature who is flat footed, flanked, or otherwise denied its dexterity bonus to AC. She ignores that creatures DR for the round and deals an additional 1d6 of damage with each attack she makes against it per attack she connected with prior in the turn.
Flicker Art 5:
At eighteenth level A Fire Warrior can spend a Flicker Point to try and inflict the dazed condition on any creature she hit with more than one attack that turn. The DC to resist this effect is 10+1/2 the Fire Warrior's level+her charisma modifier.

Flow Art 1:
At second level a Water Warrior gains a bonus to damage equal to half his current reserve of Flow Points.
He may spend a Flow point to ignore an attack of opportunity that he would otherwise be targeted by.
Flow Art 2:
At sixth level a Water Warrior gains a bonus to attack rolls equal to half his current reserve of Flow Points.
As long as a Water Warrior has at least one Flow Point he adds twice his strength modifier when wielding a weapon two handed rather than one and a half times.
Flow Art 3:
At tenth level a Water Warrior gains a bonus to confirm criticals equal to half his current reserve of Flow Points.
He may spend a Flow Point when he charges to make a full attack at the end of the charge.
Flow Art 4:
At fourteenth level a Water Warrior instead adds his whole reserve of Flow Points to attack, damage, and critical confirmation rolls.
He also only loses one Flow Point on any turn in which he moves less than half his speed.
Flow Art 5:
At eighteenth level, as a swift action a Water Warrior can spend a Flow Point to take Power Attack's penalty to attack rolls to AC instead for one round.

Root Art 1:
At second level a Wood Warrior gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to half his current reserve of Root Points.
As long as he has at least one Root Point he does not provoke attacks of opportunity when making ranged attacks in melee.
Root Art 2:
At sixth level a Wood Warrior gains a bonus to attack and damage rolls made with a ranged weapon against creatures within 30 feet equal to half his current reserve of Root Points.
As a standard action he may spend a Root Point to make a disarm or grapple check against a single creature within 30 feet. He uses dexterity instead of strength to determine his CMB for this check. A target grappled by a projectile can break free by destroying the projectile (Hardness 5, Hit Points 1, Break DC 13) or with an Escape Artist or CMB check against the Wood Warrior's CMD+4.
Root Art 3:
At tenth level a Wood Warrior gains a bonus to resist poisons and diseases equal to half his current reserve of Root Points.
He may spend a Root Point when making an attack as a standard action to loose two projectiles as a single attack against a creature within 30 feet. Only one attack roll is made but if the Wood Warrior hits he hits with two projectiles. Precision based damage is only applied to one of the two, but all other bonuses are added to each of the projectiles.
Root Art 4:
At fourteenth level a Wood Warrior instead adds his full reserve of Root Points to AC, attack, damage, and poison and disease resistance.
He also only loses one Root Point on any turn in which he moves more than a single 5-foot step.
Root Art 5:
At eighteenth level a Wood Warrior can spend a Root Point when he scores a critical hit with a ranged weapon against a creature within 30 feet to force that creature to make a fortitude save with a DC of 10 + 1/2 the Wood Warrior's class level + the Wood Warrior's Charisma modifier. On a failed saving throw the target becomes stunned for 1d4 rounds.

Form Movement (Ex):
At fifth level an Elemental Warrior learns to move more like her chosen element and style. This manifests in different ways depending on her Elemental Form as follows.

Zephyr Movement 1: At fifth level an Air Warrior gains a +10 foot bonus to her land speed.
Zephyr Movement 2: At ninth level an Air Warrior can walk on vertical surfaces or even upside down as if it were the floor. She must end her turn on a space she could stand as if she didn't have this ability or she will fall.
Zephyr Movement 3: At thirteenth level an Air warrior no longer falls if she is not on a vertical surface by the end of her turn. Instead she only falls if she moves less than her speed on any given turn while using this ability. In addition she gains an additional +10 foot bonus to her land speed.
Zephyr Movement 4: At seventeenth level, when a creature threatened by an Air Warrior makes a 5-foot step she may either make an attack of opportunity. She may replace this attack of opportunity with a 5-foot step of her own.

Mountain Movement 1: At fifth level an Earth Warrior gains proficiency with medium armor and can move at her normal speed while wearing medium armor.
Mountain Movement 2: At ninth level an Earth Warrior gains proficiency with heavy armor and can move at her normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
Mountain Movement 3: At thirteenth level, when a creature makes an attack against an adjacent ally an Earth warrior can switch spaces with that ally as an immediate action, becoming the new target of the attack.
Mountain Movement 4: At seventeenth level an Earth warrior can switch places with any willing ally within 10 feet rather than only an adjacent ally. In addition, any damage she takes for that ally is halved (after DR).

Flicker Movement 1: At fifth level a Fire Warrior gains a +10 foot bonus to her land speed.
Flicker Movement 2: At ninth level a Fire Warrior gains an additional +10 foot bonus to her land speed. In addition she counts as flanking any creature if her current space and one she occupied earlier that turn would flank it.
Flicker Movement 3: At thirteenth level a Fire Warrior gains and additional +10 foot bonus to her land speed. In addition she can spend her movement between attacks made on her turn.
Flicker Movement 4: At seventeenth level a Fire Warrior gains an additional +10 foot bonus to her land speed. In addition she can move half her speed as part of a full attack action.

Flow Movement 1: At fifth level a Water Warrior gains a +10 foot bonus to his land speed and +2 bonus to acrobatics checks to move through a threatened square.
Flow Movement 2: At ninth level a Water Warrior gains an additional +2 bonus to acrobatics checks to move through a threatened square. In addition he no longer takes a penalty to move full speed when doing so. He can also move on water as if it were solid ground so long as he moves at least half his speed each turn.
Flow Movement 3: At thirteenth level a Water Warrior gains an additional +10 foot bonus to his land speed and +2 bonus to acrobatics checks to move through a threatened square. In addition he can take a 5-foot step any time he brings a creature to 0hp with an attack, ignoring the limit of one 5-foot step per round.
Flow Movement 4: At seventeenth level a Water Warrior gains an additional +2 bonus to acrobatics checks to move through a threatened square. In addition he can move his speed as part of a full attack action.

Root Movement 1: At fifth level a Wood Warrior gains a climb speed equal to his land speed.
Root Movement 2: At ninth level a Wood Warrior ignored the movement penalty of difficult terrain.
Root Movement 3: At thirteenth level a Wood Warrior moves 10 feet when making a “5-foot step”. This does not prevent him from gaining a Root Point during his turn.
Root Movement 4: At seventeenth level a Wood Warrior can use his 5-foot step to switch places with any creature within 10 feet no more than one size larger than him by making a combat maneuver check against them. If successful he can make that creature treat all terrain as difficult terrain on that creature's next turn.

Form Mastery (Ex):
At twentieth level an Elemental Warrior has mastered her chosen form of combat. This means different things depending on her chosen Elemental Form.

Air:
Zephyr Mastery:
At twentieth level an Air Warrior can spend one Zephyr Point to extend her reach by one square and make every space within her reach rough terrain to her enemies for one round.

Earth:
Mountain Mastery:
At twentieth level an Earth warrior can spend one Mountain Point any time she would take damage in order to take only half that damage (after DR).

Fire:
Flicker Mastery:
At twentieth level a Fire Warrior can spend two Flicker Points as a swift action when making a full attack action to make two full attack routines.

Water:
Flow Mastery:
At twentieth level a Water Warrior can spend a Flow point as a full round action to move his speed. He may decide that any creature who he threatens an attack of opportunity from must take it, and he may redirect the attack to target another creature which the attacker threatens.

Wood:
Root Mastery:
At twentieth level a Wood Warrior can spend a Root Point as a full-round action to make a single attack against every creature he chooses within 30 feet at his highest BAB.

Chronos Flame
2014-07-12, 10:18 PM
So this is a class I crafted for my own campaign setting. Just ahead of time, I do understand that the classes are not heavily tied to their element, for example there is no added fire damage when attacking for a Fire Warrior. They are meant to be a mundane class that can do incredible things within their style. I am mostly wondering about balance. Thank you all in advance!

As far as flavor of the forms goes I am shooting for something like the following. If you can think of a way to bring this through that I have missed let me know. :)

Air i is meant to always be a step ahead, taking advantage of every move the opponent makes.

Earth is meant to be sturdy and urge the opponent to take them head on where they can turn the tide of the battle to their liking.

Fire is meant to be unpredictable and quick, surprising enemies with their next action.

Water is meant to be fluid, moving through the battle with their blade never stopping.

Wood is meant to be resolute, accepting attackers in and controlling his immediate surroundings with ranged attacks.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-13, 10:13 PM
Well, this is an interesting idea for a class. A few things I've noticed.

This class gets very little at first level and absolutely nothing at all if they go with earth (they can only gain points if they use an unarmed attack and they lose two points if they don't gain points, but their unarmed attack probably does non-lethal damage and provokes attacks of opportunity).

Once earth gets IUS, air warriors have a significantly harder time building points, since their method is based on their enemy performing an easily avoidable action. Unlike Earth, which requires any interaction at all, or the other three, which are dependent on the players actions.

Water wants the player to move a lot in combat, but it doesn't really do a good job of letting them do that until 10th level and, even then, that's only on a charge. Any other time and they're giving up their iteratives to gain a, relatively small, bonus on attacks.

Wood wants to be a ranged attacker that stands still, but most of it's abilities only function within 30ft.

The wood and water capstones are both fairly lack, luster.

Overall, these abilities could offer a pretty good base. Unfortunately, they don't really justify the points system or how hard it is to keep points. They also don't go far enough in a lot of areas. You could probably keep most of these as scaling abilities, with out the points, and add on some more active defensive and offensive abilities and end with a much more balanced class.

Chronos Flame
2014-07-13, 10:52 PM
Well, this is an interesting idea for a class. A few things I've noticed.

This class gets very little at first level and absolutely nothing at all if they go with earth (they can only gain points if they use an unarmed attack and they lose two points if they don't gain points, but their unarmed attack probably does non-lethal damage and provokes attacks of opportunity).

Thank you first of all. Also, I worried for a moment that I had made a mistake and written that an earth warrior has to make an unarmed attack. They actually gain points if they are the target of an attack. That said I was thinking about giving everyone a bit of an upfront boost, especially since I realize earth doesn't actually get IUS until 2nd.


Once earth gets IUS, air warriors have a significantly harder time building points, since their method is based on their enemy performing an easily avoidable action. Unlike Earth, which requires any interaction at all, or the other three, which are dependent on the players actions.

Yeah I was worried about that. Do you think it might fix the issue if I were to work in some ways that make it harder to avoid air's AoOs?


Water wants the player to move a lot in combat, but it doesn't really do a good job of letting them do that until 10th level and, even then, that's only on a charge. Any other time and they're giving up their iteratives to gain a, relatively small, bonus on attacks.

That is simply me not thinking. The style of water combatants is indeed to move a lot in combat. Perhaps I should give them more options to do so. I looked at a couple of the dervish-like classes/archetypes to try and find levels to give them what they get, but it seems to have failed me.


Wood wants to be a ranged attacker that stands still, but most of it's abilities only function within 30ft.

Yep. They are meant very much to be a melee archer(or thrower in theory, though fluff-wise they are usually using bows). Any suggestions on how to better capture that?


The wood and water capstones are both fairly lack, luster.

Noted. I shall try and think of something better, especially if others agree with the assessment. at a moment's thought maybe make wood's 30 feet? And maybe water makes a full move, provoking an attack of opportunity from every enemy he passes, then redirecting it.


Overall, these abilities could offer a pretty good base. Unfortunately, they don't really justify the points system or how hard it is to keep points. They also don't go far enough in a lot of areas. You could probably keep most of these as scaling abilities, with out the points, and add on some more active defensive and offensive abilities and end with a much more balanced class.

I would like to keep the points or find some other way to make their abilities scale up as they do the things that are now the way they gain points. It is good to know that as a whole the class is weak rather than powerful, as I find it easier to ramp up than find a compromise down.

I was thinking today and considering making some of the passives they get stick around and giving them a "Form Art" every other level, making a list they can choose from much like the rogue special abilities.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-14, 01:58 AM
Thank you first of all. Also, I worried for a moment that I had made a mistake and written that an earth warrior has to make an unarmed attack. They actually gain points if they are the target of an attack.
That's true. Unfortunately, you also included the form weapons clause. On rereading it, I realize that they would gain the points, they just wouldn't be able to do anything with them, which is basically the same thing.


That said I was thinking about giving everyone a bit of an upfront boost, especially since I realize earth doesn't actually get IUS until 2nd. That would be a good idea. There's a few ways to do it. Giving proper martial proficiency and losing the weapons clause might be a good start. I say this for two reasons. First, there are going to be times when their favored weapons won't work (like a melee character fighting a flying creature or a ranged character dealing with something like wind wall). In those cases, they're already going to be at a disadvantage because their build isn't geared for it, so there's no need to force them into using a worse weapon (crossbow vs proper bow) or turn off most of their class features. The other reason is that their abilities should suit their fighting style well enough that they want to use it, so you don't need to penalize them for not doing it.




Yeah I was worried about that. Do you think it might fix the issue if I were to work in some ways that make it harder to avoid air's AoOs? Harder to avoid AoOs and the ability to force AoOs could help, but you might be better off figuring out a different method entirely.


That is simply me not thinking. The style of water combatants is indeed to move a lot in combat. Perhaps I should give them more options to do so. I looked at a couple of the dervish-like classes/archetypes to try and find levels to give them what they get, but it seems to have failed me. In 3.5/pf, the only melee classes, that I've seen, that like to move are from ToB. The main reason for this is that their attacks function off standard actions. I think that's a good model to follow. If you want to make a mobile class, give it standard action options, so it doesn't want to full attack all the time.


Yep. They are meant very much to be a melee archer(or thrower in theory, though fluff-wise they are usually using bows). Any suggestions on how to better capture that? Ok. So, important question, what does a melee archer look like to you? This isn't meant to be sarcasm. Melee archers aren't a common archetype and you need to have a clear goal in order to fix them.

At 30 feet, they're a move action away from melee range (less if their opponent can move as a swift). Since wood wants them to stand still, their bow basically becomes a funny sword that doesn't threaten AoOs, has trouble getting strength to damage, can't power attack, and needs ammo that can be stolen or destroyed. That doesn't sound like the sort of sword I'd want to use, so you need to give them something for it.

Personally, when I think "ranged character who stands still" I think of the ultra-long range snipers and artillery pieces. The guys who don't have to worry about their enemy smashing their face in and who's equipment isn't very mobile to begin with.

Conversely, when I think close range archer, I think one of two things and they're both defined by their mobility. First, there's the ultra-mobile fighter who parkours around the battlefield and uses his 30ft range to get better positioning. The second is the gorilla who fires a shot from hiding and then runs away before they can get hit back. If you decide to go with either of those styles, keep in mind that as mobile fighters they need a way to fight using their standard actions so they can move with their moves.



Noted. I shall try and think of something better, especially if others agree with the assessment. at a moment's thought maybe make wood's 30 feet? And maybe water makes a full move, provoking an attack of opportunity from every enemy he passes, then redirecting it.

Wood's problem is that the base effect isn't very impressive at 20 or 30 feat. Either way, he's just making a single normal attack against a handful of targets. Since HP is an all or nothing game, a little damage spread over a bunch of characters isn't anywhere near as useful as the same total (or slightly less) damage on one character. Casters make good use of AoEs because they're either they're doing so much damage that it doesn't matter or they're applying a condition that doesn't get diluted.

Water's problem is a matter of available targets. In all likelihood, the only other targets in an enemy's reach are going to be allies and provoking an AoO just so you can direct it at an ally isn't a good strategy. Even if there were enemies in range, after they see the Water pull this trick once, they just won't take AoOs against him when they're next to their allies. It's not like not attacking hurts them or he has a way to force them to attack.




I would like to keep the points or find some other way to make their abilities scale up as they do the things that are now the way they gain points. It is good to know that as a whole the class is weak rather than powerful, as I find it easier to ramp up than find a compromise down.

Points are fun. I actually like playing with point systems, but there are a few things that you need to keep in mind. First, most combat encounters are going to last between 3 and 6 round, with most being 3. Second, ability modifiers don't change very much over the course of leveling. A primary mod might go from 5 to 10, but could easily change much less, and a secondary stat is going to have smaller numbers and a smaller change. These two factors mean your current system does not scale very well. Currently, a 1st level character will have a similar cap to a 20th level character and, since both of their caps are probably over 3, they'll be working with the same number of points throughout an encounter.

There are three main ways to go about fixing this.


You could make things that cost points really impressive, so it justifies making them really limited and points hard to get and keep.
You could drastically increase the size of the pools and the rate at which you earn points, so you'll have room to make things scale and they can spend points more freely.
You could start with the pool full, so it's a race against time until they're in a significantly weakened state.


Regardless of which you go with, you are probably going to want to increase what they can spend points on, so that alone suggests higher caps and/or faster recharge.


I was thinking today and considering making some of the passives they get stick around and giving them a "Form Art" every other level, making a list they can choose from much like the rogue special abilities.
Something like that could work, but it'll be harder to balance and you'll need to come up with a lot more options to account for the choices. That said, points systems can make those sorts of arrangements a lot easier to manage, since you can have an ability balanced at both low and high levels by changing the amount they pay.

Another way to do things is to have a number of fixed tracks for each type. That could be either a passive and an active track or defense, offense, and mobility tracks. Either way, you're probably only going to want a handful of active abilities for each element (unless you can spread them over all the action types or they're long term buffs). Otherwise, you'll have abilities that never see use or that get traded out for better ones once they're acquired.

Also, I seem to be suggesting this a lot, but you might want to check out legend (http://www.ruleofcool.com/) for some inspiration. In particular, the Skeleton Champion track (additional tracks>racial tracks>Undead) and a few feats use focus points and the Iron Magi track (Ranger>Daggers&Bolts) uses chain links, both of which are useful points systems to look at. A Reign of Arrows and Sentient Construct might offer some interesting ranged ideas. Vigilante and Discipline of the Crane might help with mobile fighters, but the system has full attacks as standard actions, so they might not translate as well.

One thing to keep in mind is that a class that just gives you a bunch of +2s to various things isn't very fun to play, since everyone else can do the same things as you and some of them will have the same bonuses in addition to other capabilities that you flat out don't have.

Finally, I just noticed that Fire, which wants you to dual wield, doesn't ever get two weapon fighting and only gets pseudo-twf at level 6. You should either give them the actual TWF line starting much earlier or give them a way around it.

Chronos Flame
2014-07-14, 08:12 AM
That's true. Unfortunately, you also included the form weapons clause. On rereading it, I realize that they would gain the points, they just wouldn't be able to do anything with them, which is basically the same thing.

That would be a good idea. There's a few ways to do it. Giving proper martial proficiency and losing the weapons clause might be a good start. I say this for two reasons. First, there are going to be times when their favored weapons won't work (like a melee character fighting a flying creature or a ranged character dealing with something like wind wall). In those cases, they're already going to be at a disadvantage because their build isn't geared for it, so there's no need to force them into using a worse weapon (crossbow vs proper bow) or turn off most of their class features. The other reason is that their abilities should suit their fighting style well enough that they want to use it, so you don't need to penalize them for not doing it.

The fear is that if I front load the class I will be making it too dippable, but I certainly realize I am missing some vital level one abilities and will be front loading. I think I am going to give each form a feat at first level that reflects their preferred fighting style rather than requiring them to use the style to gain form points and expecting them to select the feats themselves through the bonus feats.


Harder to avoid AoOs and the ability to force AoOs could help, but you might be better off figuring out a different method entirely.

This seems as good a place as any to clarify why they are keyed off of what they are, and I will update my second post to to say this as well, and later my first post with more flavor stuff. Each of the forms is meant to have a certain way they approach battle and I want to really reflect that through the point system.

Air i is meant to always be a step ahead, taking advantage of every move the opponent makes. This is why I am trying to give them many options or at least make them very good at AoOs.

Earth is meant to be sturdy and urge the opponent to take them head on where they can turn the tide of the battle to their liking. This is why I have given them ways to make themselves the target of attacks and to reduce damage.

Fire is meant to be unpredictable and quick, surprising enemies with their next action. I tried to give them several options to make use of this, but need to make that a bit better.

Water is meant to be fluid, moving through the battle with their blade never stopping. It is by I want to make them mobile. It is also why they have the ability to move a bit every time they down an enemy, giving them a sort of improved cleave (if they have cleave too.) I need to do more with that.

Wood is meant to be resolute, accepting attackers in and controlling his immediate surroundings with ranged attacks. The way I envision their fighting style seems to be hard to put to paper I guess.


In 3.5/pf, the only melee classes, that I've seen, that like to move are from ToB. The main reason for this is that their attacks function off standard actions. I think that's a good model to follow. If you want to make a mobile class, give it standard action options, so it doesn't want to full attack all the time.

I guess I do need to do that, or else I need to give them more abilities that key off of movement such as charges, maybe the mixture.


Ok. So, important question, what does a melee archer look like to you? This isn't meant to be sarcasm. Melee archers aren't a common archetype and you need to have a clear goal in order to fix them.

Look like? Accepting a charging enemy and punishing them with an arrow after moving subtly out of the way. joining the chaos of battle, rooting himself, and controlling it with well placed arrows.


At 30 feet, they're a move action away from melee range (less if their opponent can move as a swift). Since wood wants them to stand still, their bow basically becomes a funny sword that doesn't threaten AoOs, has trouble getting strength to damage, can't power attack, and needs ammo that can be stolen or destroyed. That doesn't sound like the sort of sword I'd want to use, so you need to give them something for it.

I guess that is the big challenge. What to give them for it? Obviously they CAN attack from more than 30 feet, but with that being their primary threat, yeah, they are a move away (which is of course the idea, as I said) Do you think I need to focus on upping their attack or is the chance to get extra arrows off like archers usually do enough? Maybe the "lots of arrows, only moderate damage" thing only works when you can sit at the relative safety of 100-200 feet away?


Personally, when I think "ranged character who stands still" I think of the ultra-long range snipers and artillery pieces. The guys who don't have to worry about their enemy smashing their face in and who's equipment isn't very mobile to begin with.

Conversely, when I think close range archer, I think one of two things and they're both defined by their mobility. First, there's the ultra-mobile fighter who parkours around the battlefield and uses his 30ft range to get better positioning. The second is the gorilla who fires a shot from hiding and then runs away before they can get hit back. If you decide to go with either of those styles, keep in mind that as mobile fighters they need a way to fight using their standard actions so they can move with their moves.

I like those types of archery. Indeed I like all types of archery quite a bit, but I am trying to make something new, or rather something that fits my vision of this fighting style. I certainly didn't think wood would have been the difficult child, but go figure.



Wood's problem is that the base effect isn't very impressive at 20 or 30 feat. Either way, he's just making a single normal attack against a handful of targets. Since HP is an all or nothing game, a little damage spread over a bunch of characters isn't anywhere near as useful as the same total (or slightly less) damage on one character. Casters make good use of AoEs because they're either they're doing so much damage that it doesn't matter or they're applying a condition that doesn't get diluted.

Considering the abilities of casters and some other classes by that point, yeah, I guess I need to make it more impressive, perhaps applying a condition to all attacked? Or being able to make the grapple/disarm as per the earlier ability against all hit.


Water's problem is a matter of available targets. In all likelihood, the only other targets in an enemy's reach are going to be allies and provoking an AoO just so you can direct it at an ally isn't a good strategy. Even if there were enemies in range, after they see the Water pull this trick once, they just won't take AoOs against him when they're next to their allies. It's not like not attacking hurts them or he has a way to force them to attack.

I think I need to ramp up the power of the capstone in general. And yeah, I would word it better. I'd meant he would force his opponent to use one of their attacks of opportunity if he threatened one, and then he could turn it aside.


Points are fun. I actually like playing with point systems, but there are a few things that you need to keep in mind. First, most combat encounters are going to last between 3 and 6 round, with most being 3. Second, ability modifiers don't change very much over the course of leveling. A primary mod might go from 5 to 10, but could easily change much less, and a secondary stat is going to have smaller numbers and a smaller change. These two factors mean your current system does not scale very well. Currently, a 1st level character will have a similar cap to a 20th level character and, since both of their caps are probably over 3, they'll be working with the same number of points throughout an encounter.

There are three main ways to go about fixing this.


You could make things that cost points really impressive, so it justifies making them really limited and points hard to get and keep.
You could drastically increase the size of the pools and the rate at which you earn points, so you'll have room to make things scale and they can spend points more freely.
You could start with the pool full, so it's a race against time until they're in a significantly weakened state.


Regardless of which you go with, you are probably going to want to increase what they can spend points on, so that alone suggests higher caps and/or faster recharge.

I think I want a little bit of 1, and a tiny bit of 2 and 3. I am thinking maybe raising how many they start a combat with slowly, but still make the methods of gaining more similar.


Something like that could work, but it'll be harder to balance and you'll need to come up with a lot more options to account for the choices. That said, points systems can make those sorts of arrangements a lot easier to manage, since you can have an ability balanced at both low and high levels by changing the amount they pay.

I was thinking maybe separate lists. Lesser arts at 2,4,6,8. Improved arts at 10,12,14. Greater arts at 16,18. and a capstone mastery art at 20. For now I would like to get the class to a more passable level without that and maybe then work on increasing their options through something like this.


Another way to do things is to have a number of fixed tracks for each type. That could be either a passive and an active track or defense, offense, and mobility tracks. Either way, you're probably only going to want a handful of active abilities for each element (unless you can spread them over all the action types or they're long term buffs). Otherwise, you'll have abilities that never see use or that get traded out for better ones once they're acquired.

I don't fully understand... Is that not somewhat what I am doing now? each type has a fixed track of abilities they get as they progress? As far as only a handful of active abilities, I would like to get it to that point. Only a handful of active abilities, but good ones that fit their style. With maybe the exception of fire who, as I said, is based around changing up tactics slightly, so might want the extra options to make use of that.


Also, I seem to be suggesting this a lot, but you might want to check out legend (http://www.ruleofcool.com/) for some inspiration. In particular, the Skeleton Champion track (additional tracks>racial tracks>Undead) and a few feats use focus points and the Iron Magi track (Ranger>Daggers&Bolts) uses chain links, both of which are useful points systems to look at. A Reign of Arrows and Sentient Construct might offer some interesting ranged ideas. Vigilante and Discipline of the Crane might help with mobile fighters, but the system has full attacks as standard actions, so they might not translate as well.

I actually fell into and out of love with Legend a few months ago. The Skeleton Champion track I like, but naturally doesn't have enough it can do with points.


One thing to keep in mind is that a class that just gives you a bunch of +2s to various things isn't very fun to play, since everyone else can do the same things as you and some of them will have the same bonuses in addition to other capabilities that you flat out don't have.

That is indeed why I am trying to make it better. I want this class to be fun to play. :)


Finally, I just noticed that Fire, which wants you to dual wield, doesn't ever get two weapon fighting and only gets pseudo-twf at level 6. You should either give them the actual TWF line starting much earlier or give them a way around it.

Yes, this will be part of frontloading the class a bit better.

Thank you so much for continuing to help me out and give me your opinions. I am going to tweak it just a little right now, if nothing else to give it some of the abilities it is lacking at the moment such as the upfront feats and the like.

Rentaromon
2014-07-17, 07:14 AM
I expected these 5 classes to have some spell casting based around their element, but maybe i have watched too much avatar. A purely physical elemental warrior seems odd, and they all seem to be connected to one and only 1 combat style, so the class is very limited. It seems more like a prestige class with how specific the 5 classes are.


Also losing all your form points because your opponents stood away for 1 round and prepared themselves seems really painful. It seems like for how easy it is to fail to gain points just once the penalty should not be so severe.

Overall im not a fan of classes that are so specifically geared to a single combat style, because im forced to play that style of character with this class and not what i want.

Chronos Flame
2014-07-18, 03:45 AM
I expected these 5 classes to have some spell casting based around their element, but maybe i have watched too much avatar. A purely physical elemental warrior seems odd, and they all seem to be connected to one and only 1 combat style, so the class is very limited. It seems more like a prestige class with how specific the 5 classes are.


Also losing all your form points because your opponents stood away for 1 round and prepared themselves seems really painful. It seems like for how easy it is to fail to gain points just once the penalty should not be so severe.

Overall im not a fan of classes that are so specifically geared to a single combat style, because im forced to play that style of character with this class and not what i want.

Thank you for looking it over anyway. I do enjoy hearing what people think and hope you will skim it again when I have updated to see if it is more to your liking. As for why they have no spellcasting, that is a fluff reason for my setting. Basically magic was lost for a long time and those who did not lose heart in their magic-centric combat styles adapted themselves into this. Now that magic is back, and has been for a while, this is the more common practice, the mundane one, but the magic forms have returned. Once I get this the way I like it I will be trying my hand at making the magical variants that have a bit less actual combat prowess martially but have spells. I am currently thinking of making them as archetypes for magus.

As for updating this, I am working on making something a bit less... forced. I want their styles to be preferred, but not necessary to be able to function at all. The full update will come in a couple days when I have had some more time. Right now I am considering not having the points drain, as having benefits that scale off of having points, and useful abilities to spend them on should be incentive enough to try and gain them. Other than that, I have a few ideas but please do throw out anything you think might help. :)

Rentaromon
2014-07-18, 09:35 AM
Thank you for looking it over anyway. I do enjoy hearing what people think and hope you will skim it again when I have updated to see if it is more to your liking. As for why they have no spellcasting, that is a fluff reason for my setting. Basically magic was lost for a long time and those who did not lose heart in their magic-centric combat styles adapted themselves into this. Now that magic is back, and has been for a while, this is the more common practice, the mundane one, but the magic forms have returned. Once I get this the way I like it I will be trying my hand at making the magical variants that have a bit less actual combat prowess martially but have spells. I am currently thinking of making them as archetypes for magus.

As for updating this, I am working on making something a bit less... forced. I want their styles to be preferred, but not necessary to be able to function at all. The full update will come in a couple days when I have had some more time. Right now I am considering not having the points drain, as having benefits that scale off of having points, and useful abilities to spend them on should be incentive enough to try and gain them. Other than that, I have a few ideas but please do throw out anything you think might help. :)

I had a feeling this class was meant for a specific world or something. Ill be checking out all the homebrew that shows up for pathfinder now, so ill make sure to check out new versions.

Care to look at mine, the Crystal Shaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?362505-Crystal-Shaper-Psionic-Crafter-version-3&p=17789483)

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-18, 03:22 PM
The fear is that if I front load the class I will be making it too dippable, but I certainly realize I am missing some vital level one abilities and will be front loading. I think I am going to give each form a feat at first level that reflects their preferred fighting style rather than requiring them to use the style to gain form points and expecting them to select the feats themselves through the bonus feats.


I wouldn't worry too much about dip-ability. Being able to use a class as a dip isn't inherently bad. It's only really a problem if it let's someone pick up a really powerful ability or something that scales really well without class levels, particularly if it was meant to be balanced by a loss of power later in the class. You're not really giving out anything that hits that profile, particularly with point dependencies.


This seems as good a place as any to clarify why they are keyed off of what they are, and I will update my second post to to say this as well, and later my first post with more flavor stuff. Each of the forms is meant to have a certain way they approach battle and I want to really reflect that through the point system.

Air i is meant to always be a step ahead, taking advantage of every move the opponent makes. This is why I am trying to give them many options or at least make them very good at AoOs.

Earth is meant to be sturdy and urge the opponent to take them head on where they can turn the tide of the battle to their liking. This is why I have given them ways to make themselves the target of attacks and to reduce damage.

Fire is meant to be unpredictable and quick, surprising enemies with their next action. I tried to give them several options to make use of this, but need to make that a bit better.

Water is meant to be fluid, moving through the battle with their blade never stopping. It is by I want to make them mobile. It is also why they have the ability to move a bit every time they down an enemy, giving them a sort of improved cleave (if they have cleave too.) I need to do more with that.

Wood is meant to be resolute, accepting attackers in and controlling his immediate surroundings with ranged attacks. The way I envision their fighting style seems to be hard to put to paper I guess.

Ok, your basic idea is fairly good, but there are a few problems with execution. The largest problem is that you have a lot of overlap within [wood, air, earth] and [fire, water]. That's going to make it hard to come up with sufficient, unique, abilities without crippling a type by ommiting things.

You might be better off with different specialties. Maybe something like this:

Air: High mobility skirmisher. Uses bows at short to medium range and focuses on getting terrain advantage.
Earth: Strength and inertia. Uses big weapons, charges, and power attacks to do lots of damage. Think like the juggernaut. Also, maybe look at the Dire staff that was floating around here recently.
Fire: Lots of little attacks. "Burn them up with your blades." You'll need to give them something to help with Dr and movement.
Water: Stealth and ambush tactics. Focus on using traps and alchemical items to make the battlefield an unpleasant place. Uses unarmed attacks and poison for direct confrontations. (Water and wind could get swaped or mixed up a bit. For example, wind could take Stealth, traps, and alchemical while water takes skirmishing, bows, and poisons.)
Wood: Stationary area control. Have them sit in an area and make it unpleasant to stay in and hard to leave. Maybe have them use a Whip and look at lasher. You will need to give them a way to make enemies come into range.


Look like? Accepting a charging enemy and punishing them with an arrow after moving subtly out of the way. joining the chaos of battle, rooting himself, and controlling it with well placed arrows.

Ok, so that doesn't work so well for a few reasons. The first is it relies on people bothering to attack you when your movement and effective ranges are extremely limited. The second is that ranged weapons are incredibly limited in 3.5 and this model is asking you to give up one of their few advantages for something that can easily be replicated (and surpassed) by melee weapons. You could, potentially fix this by letting them put down traps and AoEs at range, but that still runs into two problems. First, windwall and similar effects will no-sell their main shtick. More importantly, they still have a very limited effective range, if they actually want to use their abilities, so it's fairly easy to just go around them and leave them for last.

There's also the possibility that, in order to do it well, this type will end up feeling very supernatural.



I guess that is the big challenge. What to give them for it? Obviously they CAN attack from more than 30 feet, but with that being their primary threat, yeah, they are a move away (which is of course the idea, as I said) Do you think I need to focus on upping their attack or is the chance to get extra arrows off like archers usually do enough? Maybe the "lots of arrows, only moderate damage" thing only works when you can sit at the relative safety of 100-200 feet away?
The problem with that is other archers can already do it at greater range and without dealing with points AND they're probably getting something else (like SA or spells) on top of it. If you really want them using a bow at point blank, you're going to need to come up with some novel mechanics that don't simply add slightly larger numbers.



Considering the abilities of casters and some other classes by that point, yeah, I guess I need to make it more impressive, perhaps applying a condition to all attacked? Or being able to make the grapple/disarm as per the earlier ability against all hit.

Conditions are nice. The big problem with grappling and disarming, particularly at range, is that there are a lot of ways to no-sell either. If you're large enough, have freedom of movement, or can teleport (and, at high levels, almost everything will have at least one of those) grappling does nothing. Similarly, if you're using natural weapons, casting or special abilities, getting disarmed isn't an issue.




I'd meant he would force his opponent to use one of their attacks of opportunity if he threatened one, and then he could turn it aside.

What does that actually accomplish? Most characters treat AoOs as a nice bonus that they don't get all to often. Getting someone to use an AoO just so you can waist it doesn't change the status quo.


I was thinking maybe separate lists. Lesser arts at 2,4,6,8. Improved arts at 10,12,14. Greater arts at 16,18. and a capstone mastery art at 20. For now I would like to get the class to a more passable level without that and maybe then work on increasing their options through something like this.
That seems moderately redundant with a point system. I'd also like to point out that you don't currently have enough abilities to fill the fixed progressions for the types, creating tiered menus will require significantly more abilities. Maybe focus on getting down a single functional path for each first?




I don't fully understand... Is that not somewhat what I am doing now? each type has a fixed track of abilities they get as they progress? As far as only a handful of active abilities, I would like to get it to that point. Only a handful of active abilities, but good ones that fit their style.


You're doing something similar, but your tracks aren't as well defined and leave lots of gaps. Also, your active abilities are extremely lacking.


With maybe the exception of fire who, as I said, is based around changing up tactics slightly, so might want the extra options to make use of that.
Be careful of making it so they can sort of do a lot of things, but not at a useful level. Their abilities still need to work well together.


I actually fell into and out of love with Legend a few months ago. The Skeleton Champion track I like, but naturally doesn't have enough it can do with points.
There were two or three feats that also work with them, but it's still not a lot.

Also, I just looked at the available bonus feats. By and large they seem fairly lack luster (generic, tiny, bonuses to a single weapon) or necessary for the type to function (twf line). The former shouldn't are really boring and the later should probably get baked into the class and, possibly, improved. Someone shouldn't be as good, or better, at a type's specialty by going straight fighter or ranger.

Chronos Flame
2014-07-18, 05:17 PM
Ok, your basic idea is fairly good, but there are a few problems with execution. The largest problem is that you have a lot of overlap within [wood, air, earth] and [fire, water]. That's going to make it hard to come up with sufficient, unique, abilities without crippling a type by ommiting things.

You might be better off with different specialties. Maybe something like this:

Air: High mobility skirmisher. Uses bows at short to medium range and focuses on getting terrain advantage.
Earth: Strength and inertia. Uses big weapons, charges, and power attacks to do lots of damage. Think like the juggernaut. Also, maybe look at the Dire staff that was floating around here recently.
Fire: Lots of little attacks. "Burn them up with your blades." You'll need to give them something to help with Dr and movement.
Water: Stealth and ambush tactics. Focus on using traps and alchemical items to make the battlefield an unpleasant place. Uses unarmed attacks and poison for direct confrontations. (Water and wind could get swaped or mixed up a bit. For example, wind could take Stealth, traps, and alchemical while water takes skirmishing, bows, and poisons.)
Wood: Stationary area control. Have them sit in an area and make it unpleasant to stay in and hard to leave. Maybe have them use a Whip and look at lasher. You will need to give them a way to make enemies come into range.

These aren't options. The general idea of the styles and their normal form weapons are pretty set in as I have been writing the setting for years, this is simply my first stab at homebrewing classes to fit as I have only now truly decided on what system I would like to run it in. I am certainly open to expanding it a bit, as in the fluff there are certain practitioners, particularly in the styles' formative years that were nonstandard in their practice, but the idea was the same.

That said some of it could be used or does make sense. Air could use terrain advantage and I would like to find a way to do so better. Earth could use more offensive options, but it will not be in the form of heavy weapons. That is more or less what I am trying to build toward with fire. That is what I am looking at with wood, but with a different form weapon. How a whip doesn't suffer from many of the disadvantages of a bow once you take away the AoO is beyond me though. As for water however that is far too different from how the school is meant to fight.



Ok, so that doesn't work so well for a few reasons. The first is it relies on people bothering to attack you when your movement and effective ranges are extremely limited. The second is that ranged weapons are incredibly limited in 3.5 and this model is asking you to give up one of their few advantages for something that can easily be replicated (and surpassed) by melee weapons. You could, potentially fix this by letting them put down traps and AoEs at range, but that still runs into two problems. First, windwall and similar effects will no-sell their main shtick. More importantly, they still have a very limited effective range, if they actually want to use their abilities, so it's fairly easy to just go around them and leave them for last.

There's also the possibility that, in order to do it well, this type will end up feeling very supernatural.

The problem with that is other archers can already do it at greater range and without dealing with points AND they're probably getting something else (like SA or spells) on top of it. If you really want them using a bow at point blank, you're going to need to come up with some novel mechanics that don't simply add slightly larger numbers.

Noted. I guess it reinforces the need of a rework for the wood warriors. I will be working on mechanics or abilities that make this archetype work better. Mainly ways to make opponents want to engage and a way to make life difficult once they are there.


Conditions are nice. The big problem with grappling and disarming, particularly at range, is that there are a lot of ways to no-sell either. If you're large enough, have freedom of movement, or can teleport (and, at high levels, almost everything will have at least one of those) grappling does nothing. Similarly, if you're using natural weapons, casting or special abilities, getting disarmed isn't an issue.

I suppose I shall leave that as their low level perk then as is.


What does that actually accomplish? Most characters treat AoOs as a nice bonus that they don't get all to often. Getting someone to use an AoO just so you can waist it doesn't change the status quo.

Part of this I think is many of the groups I've been with don't specialize in them, but try and plan around using them to great effect. I suppose I should find something a bit more impactful to do with it.


That seems moderately redundant with a point system. I'd also like to point out that you don't currently have enough abilities to fill the fixed progressions for the types, creating tiered menus will require significantly more abilities. Maybe focus on getting down a single functional path for each first?

Yes, which is why I would like to get this more solid before taking on anything such as that.



Be careful of making it so they can sort of do a lot of things, but not at a useful level. Their abilities still need to work well together.

Oh no, I was hoping they would all be useful, simply different to reflect their fighting style.


Also, I just looked at the available bonus feats. By and large they seem fairly lack luster (generic, tiny, bonuses to a single weapon) or necessary for the type to function (twf line). The former shouldn't are really boring and the later should probably get baked into the class and, possibly, improved. Someone shouldn't be as good, or better, at a type's specialty by going straight fighter or ranger.

They ARE baked into the class. That is why bonus feats are gained as they level. The ranger gets bonus feats that they need for their fighting style. They aren't bad because they need them, they are good because they get extra feats that they will need. If the fire line (for example) didn't get TWF stuff what sense would that make? And the weapon focus feats are again something you don't have to take, but if you wanted weapon focus you could take it so long as you choose a weapon the form favors. They are meant to save you feats and give you more.

That said I am looking for more feats that would fit and be worthwhile for the lists if anyone has suggestions. I am familiar with PF but have nowhere near the encyclopedic knowledge of their feats and spells as I do for 3.5.

Chronos Flame
2014-07-18, 06:23 PM
Fire was updated. I chose to do it first as I believe it was closest to the mark and needed the least revamping. Flicker Arts and Flicker Mastery are now changed.

Also, Elemental Warriors no longer lose points when they don't gain them, their pool max is 1/2lvl+cha mod and they start with cha mod points at the beginning of every combat at level 10.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-18, 10:17 PM
These aren't options. The general idea of the styles and their normal form weapons are pretty set in as I have been writing the setting for years, this is simply my first stab at homebrewing classes to fit as I have only now truly decided on what system I would like to run it in. I am certainly open to expanding it a bit, as in the fluff there are certain practitioners, particularly in the styles' formative years that were nonstandard in their practice, but the idea was the same.

That said some of it could be used or does make sense. Air could use terrain advantage and I would like to find a way to do so better. Earth could use more offensive options, but it will not be in the form of heavy weapons. That is more or less what I am trying to build toward with fire. That is what I am looking at with wood, but with a different form weapon.

Alright, that was just a suggestion that would make the class a lot easier to build. Important note though, Fire can not use heavy weapons. Not only do they only gain proficiencies with light martial weapons, dual wielding is almost inimical to heavy weapons.


How a whip doesn't suffer from many of the disadvantages of a bow once you take away the AoO is beyond me though.

Whips don't require ammo, can be used for combat maneuvers and power attacks and get full strength to damage (without strength-rating annoyances). They are also not effected by any of the abilities that automatically negate ranged attacks. The only downside is that they can't normally threaten, but that's one of the reasons why I pointed you towards lasher.


As for water however that is far too different from how the school is meant to fight.
Well, my original point was that you should change the way it's meant to fight, because currently you have a lot of overlap and your categories aren't working out so well. You might want to consider if it would be easier to change the fluff, rather than trying to bend the crunch into what you already have.



Noted. I guess it reinforces the need of a rework for the wood warriors. I will be working on mechanics or abilities that make this archetype work better. Mainly ways to make opponents want to engage and a way to make life difficult once they are there.
How will they differentiate themselves from earth types, who also try to make enemies come to them and control an area?


Part of this I think is many of the groups I've been with don't specialize in them, but try and plan around using them to great effect. I suppose I should find something a bit more impactful to do with it.

They certainly can be used to great effect, but that's mostly for area denial and punishing movement. If someones burns their capstone and gives up a full attack just so they can waste one of my AoOs, it has more than done it's job, because I am trading 1 of my extra attacks for 3 of your proper attacks. I have cut your effective damage by 3/4 while sacrificing none of my expected damage.


Oh no, I was hoping they would all be useful, simply different to reflect their fighting style.
I know, I was just pointing out one of the main dangers of trying to make a generalist.




They ARE baked into the class. That is why bonus feats are gained as they level. The ranger gets bonus feats that they need for their fighting style. They aren't bad because they need them, they are good because they get extra feats that they will need. If the fire line (for example) didn't get TWF stuff what sense would that make? And the weapon focus feats are again something you don't have to take, but if you wanted weapon focus you could take it so long as you choose a weapon the form favors. They are meant to save you feats and give you more.

They are absolutely not baked in. They are presented as choices, which implies you don't need to take ITF if you're going fire. Conversely, look at how ranger does it, once you chose two weapon fighting you automatically get the TWF feats, it is not a choice, you are not selecting from a menu. This is important, because getting abilities that are key to the core functionality of a class should not be a choice and presenting them as one just acts as a trap for new players.


Fire was updated. I chose to do it first as I believe it was closest to the mark and needed the least revamping. Flicker Arts and Flicker Mastery are now changed.

Also, Elemental Warriors no longer lose points when they don't gain them, their pool max is 1/2lvl+cha mod and they start with cha mod points at the beginning of every combat at level 10.

Fire doesn't work as written. They regain points by doing different things, but almost all of their abilities want them to full attack, so that's not happening.

Art 2 doesn't say if it stacks with itself and can quickly reach unreasonable amounts of damage.

Movement 2 isn't particularly useful, because none of their abilities, with the exception of art 2 (which is fairly lack luster) key off flanking and they'd have to give up their iterative attacks (which art 4 really wants you to have) and risk provoking in order to take advantage of it.

Movement 3 is, at best, a poorly worded spring attack, because if you move you only get 1 attack. They do not have any abilities that make such an attack useful until Movement 4.

Over all, I'm also not seeing the purpose of the points. At most, you can spend 1 point per round, but you'll hopefully be getting back 1 point per round anyways. This means they 1) aren't limiting you and 2) aren't helping your passives scale up (because they aren't actually increasing). I'm also not sure about starting with an empty pool until lv 10. That just makes the passives nearly worthless for the first half of their adventuring career and, at the really early levels, makes their abilities unreasonably hard to use.This is compounded by the fact that most of the abilities aren't particularly exceptional or powerful.

Also, having a larger cap doesn't mean much if you're still only getting 1 point per round and combat generally only lasts 3-6 rounds. They are extremely unlikely to use most of their capacity.