Claws, Teeth, and Rage - or building a shapeshifting Barbarian

[Steven]

So I'm messing around with a character idea and need a hand clarifying a couple of points.
Basically I'm trying to make a character who uses natural attacks rather than weapons. I'm well aware that this is probably not the most optimized idea ever but I'm just interested to see what can be done.

So what I have so far is something like this:
Teifling (Oni-Spawn)
Ranger(Shapeshifter)/Barbarian
I'm not sure what to do with stats but will be dumping int and probably cha to boost up the others.

Essentially I'm aiming to use barbarian rage and the rangers Form of the Bear to pump strength by +8 at forth level.


The biggest problem I'm having is getting my head around using natural attacks: If I take the Teifling Maw or Calw I can pick up a bite or claws and then I can improve the damage on them with my ranger combat style. Now I can can also use aspect of the beast to pick up claw attacks so technically, if I'm understanding all this right, I could have a bite and two claw attacks by the time I reach third level. I guess I just don't understand how natural attacks work, all three would be listed as primary attacks so would this give me 3 natural attacks at my full BAB with full strength bonus to damage?

Also, is there anything I'm overlooking that makes this just a plain old Really Bad Idea?

[Xerlith]

Totemist. You're missing the Totemist class. Try Totemist/Barbarian/Totem Rager.

Alternatively, you can pick Druid and use the Druidic Avenger variant from UA. His rage doesn't progress though.

[Steven]

*Points at the pathfinder tag on the post*

Yeah, no 3.5 allowed.

Edit:

Sorry, that was rude. Thank you for the suggestion but I can't use it sadly.

[Xerlith]

*looks at the tag* Yeah, next time I'll answer after I've had my morning tea.

[Yanisa]

The biggest problem I'm having is getting my head around using natural attacks: If I take the Teifling Maw or Calw I can pick up a bite or claws and then I can improve the damage on them with my ranger combat style. Now I can can also use aspect of the beast to pick up claw attacks so technically, if I'm understanding all this right, I could have a bite and two claw attacks by the time I reach third level. I guess I just don't understand how natural attacks work, all three would be listed as primary attacks so would this give me 3 natural attacks at my full BAB with full strength bonus to damage?

While I am not really great with build advice, I can give you a run down of the Natural Attack rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks).

To keep it short, all types of natural attacks (claws, bite, hooves) are set to be either primary or secondary according the table (link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks)). With primary using full attack bonus and full strength bonus, and secondary getting -5 penalty on attack and half strength bonus.

There are two notable exceptions, neither really applies to you.
If you only have one natural attack, it is always primary, and deals 1.5 times strength damage.
If you combine manufactured weapons with natural attacks, all natural attacks are secondary.

So yeah, you are right. Your claws and bite are both primary, with full attack and full strength damage. (And a total of 3 attacks)

[Steven]

So, because they're natural attacks I'm never going to get better than those three attacks right? As they don't go up based on BAB.

I can see the character really hitting their stride at about level 5-6 before dropping off quite badly.

[Abd al-Azrad]

One really strong option for this sort of build would be to have your character born a Ragebred Skinwalker (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/skinwalkers-10-rp#TOC-Wereboar-Kin-Ragebred-). Basically because this race gets 3 additional natural attacks to the regular Claw/Claw/Bite routine (Gore and two Hoof attacks).

Beyond that, I would recommend you pursue the Beast Totem Rage Powers. This will grant you 2 claws whenever you rage, a natural armor bonus to offset your AC penalty from Raging, and (of course) Pounce at 10th level. There are a few other ways to gain Pounce, but I think this is the cleanest.

Barring difficult terrain, at this point you can always engage an enemy from less than 80', striking with five natural attacks on the first round. Even if the Lesser Beast Totem claws are made redundant from some other technique you're using as a Ranger, a five-attack charge (six attacks if Hasted!) on a raging barbarian is, in my opinion, pretty comparable to a weapon-user.

In my experience, natural attacker melee-types dominate in the early levels when no one else can keep up with their attack volume, then drop off in power later on as iterative melee-types begin to catch up in attack volume. The five-attack pounce goes a long way to keeping up with the best attack routine a weapon-user can field.

You can even turn the Gore attack into an auto-critical threat with the Boar's Charge (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/boar-s-charge) rage power at 12th level, unique to your Ragebred. Which can deal Constitution Damage (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/disemboweling-tusks).

[grarrrg]

Natural Attack monsters are actually a solid build.


So, because they're natural attacks I'm never going to get better than those three attacks right? As they don't go up based on BAB.

I can see the character really hitting their stride at about level 5-6 before dropping off quite badly.

You're forgetting a couple things, the first of which is that with Natural Attacks all of your "iteratives" are at your HIGHEST Bab, whilst everyone else takes penalties to hit after the first.
An attack routine of +11/+11/+11 is perfectly fine compared to +11/+6/+1.

There are a few ways to get a few more Natural Attacks, there's a Mammoth Lord Helm that will get a Gore, and you can dip White-Haired Witch for one level for a Hair attack. And if your DM allows it, there's that Ragebred race to work with.
And for the extra crazy, if you count as Human you can take the Racial Heritage feat to count as a Kobold and gain a Secondary Tail Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/tail-terror-combat-kobold)

There's also always the option of taking the Multiattack Feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/multiattack-combat) at some point and using a Manufactured weapon yourself. Your Naturals would be secondary and do +1/2 STR damage, but only take a -2 to-hit.
Attack routine would be +11/+9/+9/+9/+6/+1



More build specific advice: You'll probably want the Beast Totem line of Rage powers, these give Claw attacks with Lesser, and Pounce with Greater at level 10.
Pounce is handy.

There's also the advantage of an Amulet of Mighty Fists boosting ALL of your Natural attacks at the same time.


All Natural Weapons are Light weapons, so Power Attack would only give a -1/+1 bonus, if you don't mind wasting a feat, then Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat) gives you a -1/+2 exchange rate instead.
EDIT: They are apparently only "Light" when it suits them to be Light?

[Steven]

Thanks for the input folks. I'm thinking I'll go with Teifling, for a bite attack, three levels of ranger for the shape changers strength boost, and then barbarian for beast totem progression and maybe the lesser fiend totem to get a gore. That last one also ties in nicely with the back story I've come up with so it's looking quite snazzy. If I get it all drawn up sooner rather than later I'll post the character here for feedback.

[Sayt]

All Natural Weapons are Light weapons, so Power Attack would only give a -1/+1 bonus, if you don't mind wasting a feat, then Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat) gives you a -1/+2 exchange rate instead.

Huh, I'm not familiar with this rule, do you have a citation for that?

EDIT: According to the Power Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/power-attack-combat---final) Feat, natural weapons which get strength-and-a-half de facto count as 'two handed' and secondary natural weapons count (again de facto) as light weapons.

[grarrrg]

barbarian for beast totem progression and maybe the lesser fiend totem to get a gore.

You are limited to one 'type' of Totem power.
If you choose Beast, then you are not allowed to take Fiend.


three levels of ranger for the shape changers strength boost

Just be aware that the Shapeshifter Ranger > Bear STR boost is an Enhancement bonus, which will NOT stack most common Items/Spells.


Huh, I'm not familiar with this rule, do you have a citation for that?

After double checking, I'm going to go with a rules mix-up on my part.
There's the fact that Unarmed Strike are counted as Light weapons (and the fact that Unarmed counts as a Manufactured weapon, but that's a different topic).
The Weapon Finesse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-finesse-combat---final) feat has a "Special: Natural Weapons are considered Light weapons" line.
It's probably poorly worded and _should_ say 'Natural Weapons count as Light weapons when using Weapon Finesse'.

But that's the only place I can find that says Naturals are considered Light.


So Power Attack should work fine for -1/+2 bonuses.

[Steven]

Gah, teach me for not paying attention.

So if I pick up skin walker and go with the Wereboar-Kin option am I reading the rules right that when I transform I only get ONE of the bestial features? Or is that only for the base form? Not that it matters too much as grabbing that extra natural attack from the gore is probably worth it even without the hooves.

Also: As far as the enhancement bonus issue: Is that as big a deal as I think it is? I feel like that basically limits the use of it to low levels or can I use it to free up an item slot for something else that's useful?

[grarrrg]

Also: As far as the enhancement bonus issue: Is that as big a deal as I think it is? I feel like that basically limits the use of it to low levels or can I use it to free up an item slot for something else that's useful?

I find the main limiting factor the "1/day use" part.
Typically the biggest Enhancement bonus you'd get would be +6, so a +4 is perfectly fine size wise. The main problem is that you only have 1 use at level 3, and have to wait until Ranger 8 to get a second use.
It would also be better if you could choose more than one form right away.

For lower level games it can be quite handy, but once you can afford a Belt of +STR it becomes kinda pointless.

[Steven]

Yeah, that makes sense.

So, since you seem to have a far better handle on this than myself, can you help me out some more? I'm leaning towards the Wereboar-Kin with the feat that lets me pick up the Gore and the Hooves and straight into barbarian. I'll then grab the Lesser Beast Totem at lvl 2 to give me a total, if I've not misread entirely and assuming a rage boosted strength of ~20, +7,+7,+7,+2,+2 to hit with 1d6+5, 1d4+5, 1d4+5, 1d4+2, 1d4+2.
Have I done that right or have I stuffed up, again, in my calculations?

Also, is there any way to pick up a primary bite attack? I know there is a rage power that would give me one as a secondary attack but I feel cheated that I can't it on full BAB somehow :P

[Talieth]

If i may add a suggestion : an Oracle could help you too : lunar mystery has a revelation that can give you natural attack (claw/gore/bite, choose on use) for a few round, and dual cursed archetype with lame/wolfscared (lesser curse) would give you a bite attack (always on) from wolfscarred and (eventually) immunity to fatigue. A barbarian would love that.

For the race, a changeling could be useful too : already has 2 claw attack and their favored option for Oracle is +1/2 to effective curse level ... a lvl3 oracle / lvl2 barabarian would be immune to fatigue (lame curse : 3 lvl form oracle, +1 from 2 favored, +1 from 2 lvl of other class than oracle)

[Psyren]

After double checking, I'm going to go with a rules mix-up on my part.
There's the fact that Unarmed Strike are counted as Light weapons (and the fact that Unarmed counts as a Manufactured weapon, but that's a different topic).
The Weapon Finesse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-finesse-combat---final) feat has a "Special: Natural Weapons are considered Light weapons" line.
It's probably poorly worded and _should_ say 'Natural Weapons count as Light weapons when using Weapon Finesse'.

But that's the only place I can find that says Naturals are considered Light.

The part you missed that clears this up is in Power Attack itself:

"Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon."

So in the case of natural weapons, Power Attack will do -1/+3 on your primary, and -1/+1 with all your secondaries.

In the case of Tiefling Maw + Lesser Beast Totem, they are all primary and therefore all will get the -1/+3 and be made at full BAB. You will not need Multiattack for these.

[grarrrg]

I'll then grab the Lesser Beast Totem at lvl 2 to give me a total, if I've not misread entirely and assuming a rage boosted strength of ~20, +7,+7,+7,+2,+2 to hit with 1d6+5, 1d4+5, 1d4+5, 1d4+2, 1d4+2.
Have I done that right or have I stuffed up, again, in my calculations?

Also, is there any way to pick up a primary bite attack? I know there is a rage power that would give me one as a secondary attack but I feel cheated that I can't it on full BAB somehow :P

Finally read up on the Skinwalker, and it looks like you get either the Gore or the Hooves each time you use Change Shape ability.
Other than that your numbers look good.
I'd go with the Gore most of the time, unless you're fighting large groups, or decide to pick up a weapon.



If i may add a suggestion : an Oracle could help you too : lunar mystery has a revelation that can give you natural attack (claw/gore/bite, choose on use) for a few round, and dual cursed archetype with lame/wolfscared (lesser curse) would give you a bite attack (always on) from wolfscarred and (eventually) immunity to fatigue. A barbarian would love that.

For the race, a changeling could be useful too : already has 2 claw attack and their favored option for Oracle is +1/2 to effective curse level ... a lvl3 oracle / lvl2 barabarian would be immune to fatigue (lame curse : 3 lvl form oracle, +1 from 2 favored, +1 from 2 lvl of other class than oracle)

Wolfscarred is a good way to pick up a Bite, and Lame will let you Rage Cycle by level 9 at the latest.
Lunar may not be the best choice, and you'll already have Claws/Bite/Gore so definitely skip that Revelation.

As for Changeling, I wouldn't waste the entirety of my Alt-Favored Class on getting Fatigue Immunity a couple levels sooner. Better spent on Barbarian which you are likely to have many more levels in.


"Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon."
Hooray! More corrections of corrections!

So in the case of natural weapons, Power Attack will do -1/+3 on your primary, and -1/+1 with all your secondaries.

In the case of Tiefling Maw + Lesser Beast Totem, they are all primary and therefore all will get the -1/+3 and be made at full BAB. You will not need Multiattack for these.

Power Attack will only add -1/+2, as the attacks are Primaries, but not "Primaries that gets 1.5x STR bonus".
The main way to get a Primary with 1.5 STR bonus is for it to be your _only_ attack, which precludes the roflstomping that is a natural attack monster.
Normal primaries are not specifically listed, so they'd fall under the -1/+2.

[Psyren]

You're totally right - a natural attack will only add 1,5*STR if it is your only attack. So PA will only modify the attacks in this situation by -1/+2.

[Steven]

Finally read up on the Skinwalker, and it looks like you get either the Gore or the Hooves each time you use Change Shape ability.
Other than that your numbers look good.
I'd go with the Gore most of the time, unless you're fighting large groups, or decide to pick up a weapon.

There is a feat with no prereques that gets you two features when you shift. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-feature) So I can get the two hoof attacks as well.



Wolfscarred is a good way to pick up a Bite, and Lame will let you Rage Cycle by level 9 at the latest.
Lunar may not be the best choice, and you'll already have Claws/Bite/Gore so definitely skip that Revelation.


I can't grab both of these can I? I had figured out I could pick up a bite with the Adopted trait so I could do that and get Lame. Although the bite from Wolfscarred scales some what so that could be better.

Gah, so many choices....

[grarrrg]

There is a feat with no prereques that gets you two features when you shift. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-feature) So I can get the two hoof attacks as well.

Works for me.


I can't grab both of these can I? I had figured out I could pick up a bite with the Adopted trait so I could do that and get Lame. Although the bite from Wolfscarred scales some what so that could be better.

Dual-Cursed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/archetypes/paizo---oracle-archetypes/dual-cursed-oracle) Oracle can choose 2 Curses. And Curses count your Non-Oracle levels as 1/2 for bonus purposes.
The only catch is that only ONE of your 2 Curses gets to advance. If going with Lame/Wolf-Scarred you are better off progressing Lame so you can get Fatigue Immunity.
The Base damage of your Bite isn't as important as the fact you have an extra attack.

There is also a Rage Power (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/animal-fury-ex) (NON-Totem) that gives a Bite, but it's (sort of) a Secondary attack.


Gah, so many choices....

Yes.

[Steven]

I might as well just pick up a bite by using the Adopted trait to avoid having to roleplay a speech impediment.
Thanks again for all the help.